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English To English Translation Needed

Jerry Rasmussen 21 Sep 06 - 09:18 AM
Morticia 21 Sep 06 - 09:20 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Sep 06 - 09:23 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Sep 06 - 09:25 AM
Emma B 21 Sep 06 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Dazbo 21 Sep 06 - 09:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM
Dave Earl 21 Sep 06 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Dazbo 21 Sep 06 - 09:46 AM
Paul Burke 21 Sep 06 - 09:47 AM
Emma B 21 Sep 06 - 09:51 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 21 Sep 06 - 09:51 AM
greg stephens 21 Sep 06 - 09:56 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 21 Sep 06 - 10:01 AM
Amos 21 Sep 06 - 10:02 AM
Scrump 21 Sep 06 - 10:04 AM
MMario 21 Sep 06 - 10:10 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM
MMario 21 Sep 06 - 10:17 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 21 Sep 06 - 10:24 AM
Mr Happy 21 Sep 06 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Mrr 21 Sep 06 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Dazbo 21 Sep 06 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Arfur Dullard 21 Sep 06 - 10:32 AM
katlaughing 21 Sep 06 - 10:37 AM
mack/misophist 21 Sep 06 - 10:40 AM
Dave Earl 21 Sep 06 - 10:45 AM
Scoville 21 Sep 06 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,Sir Tommy Steele 21 Sep 06 - 10:58 AM
The Walrus 21 Sep 06 - 11:20 AM
katlaughing 21 Sep 06 - 11:30 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 21 Sep 06 - 11:39 AM
JamesHenry 21 Sep 06 - 11:44 AM
Rob Henderson 21 Sep 06 - 11:48 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Sep 06 - 12:08 PM
MMario 21 Sep 06 - 12:09 PM
Dave Earl 21 Sep 06 - 12:16 PM
Bassic 21 Sep 06 - 12:19 PM
GUEST 21 Sep 06 - 12:34 PM
Dave Earl 21 Sep 06 - 12:39 PM
Les from Hull 21 Sep 06 - 12:42 PM
Bill D 21 Sep 06 - 12:59 PM
GUEST, Topsie 21 Sep 06 - 01:05 PM
GUEST, Topsie 21 Sep 06 - 01:16 PM
Liz the Squeak 21 Sep 06 - 03:21 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 21 Sep 06 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Dave 21 Sep 06 - 05:17 PM
pavane 22 Sep 06 - 04:27 AM
Brakn 22 Sep 06 - 04:30 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 06 - 04:35 AM
leeneia 22 Sep 06 - 10:04 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 22 Sep 06 - 10:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 06 - 10:28 AM
Grab 22 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM
Les from Hull 22 Sep 06 - 10:44 AM
Bill D 22 Sep 06 - 11:03 AM
Tootler 22 Sep 06 - 02:29 PM
r.padgett 22 Sep 06 - 03:36 PM
Bill D 22 Sep 06 - 05:15 PM
Les from Hull 22 Sep 06 - 05:35 PM
Charmain 22 Sep 06 - 05:37 PM
Charmain 22 Sep 06 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,lox 22 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM
r.padgett 22 Sep 06 - 05:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 06 - 05:46 PM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Sep 06 - 08:39 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 22 Sep 06 - 09:40 PM
GUEST,Rowan 22 Sep 06 - 09:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Sep 06 - 10:30 PM
Bob Bolton 22 Sep 06 - 10:33 PM
GUEST,Rowan 23 Sep 06 - 03:36 AM
Bob Bolton 23 Sep 06 - 04:07 AM
Betsy 23 Sep 06 - 04:45 AM
JamesHenry 23 Sep 06 - 06:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Sep 06 - 06:29 AM
Les from Hull 23 Sep 06 - 11:57 AM
GUEST, Topsie 23 Sep 06 - 04:05 PM
Bob Bolton 23 Sep 06 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Rowan 23 Sep 06 - 11:56 PM
The Walrus 24 Sep 06 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Rowan 24 Sep 06 - 06:25 PM
Bob Bolton 24 Sep 06 - 09:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Sep 06 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,Rowan 25 Sep 06 - 01:00 AM
Bob Bolton 25 Sep 06 - 02:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 06 - 04:54 AM
pavane 25 Sep 06 - 07:42 AM
Helen 25 Sep 06 - 04:52 PM
Forsh 25 Sep 06 - 05:05 PM
Paul Burke 26 Sep 06 - 03:15 AM
Scrump 26 Sep 06 - 04:31 AM
GUEST, Topsie 26 Sep 06 - 04:39 AM
Howard Jones 26 Sep 06 - 04:47 AM
Paul Burke 26 Sep 06 - 04:48 AM
The Walrus 26 Sep 06 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Rowan 26 Sep 06 - 06:21 PM
Bob Bolton 26 Sep 06 - 07:57 PM
Grab 27 Sep 06 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,IBO 27 Sep 06 - 05:04 PM
Leadfingers 27 Sep 06 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,IBO 27 Sep 06 - 05:27 PM
Bert 27 Sep 06 - 05:31 PM
JamesHenry 27 Sep 06 - 05:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 06 - 04:04 PM
Scrump 29 Sep 06 - 07:10 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Sep 06 - 07:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 06 - 08:08 AM
Les from Hull 29 Sep 06 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,AR 29 Sep 06 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Eliza 21 Jan 12 - 07:29 AM
r.padgett 21 Jan 12 - 07:00 PM
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Subject: English To English Translation Needed
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:18 AM

My current favorite comic strip is Get Fuzzy. (You can check out it out on your computer.) One of the main characters is a dumb, obnoxious cat named Bucky. Starting in today's strip, a cat has appeared at the door to Bucky's "owner's" apartment (as if anyone "owns" a cat, who speaks in semi-indicipherable Brit-speak.

I can see that I'm going to need my Catter friends to translate a lot of the dialogue into Amurican English.

Here's today's dialgoue:

"Ah, brilliant! Been having a Butcher's for your flats all day, Mate. Thought I'd cooked summat up. I'm well knackered. I can tell you! I could do with a bevvy and a kip!

Plus, some bloke diddled me brolly in the queue for the khazi in blighty.

Come again?

I know what knackered is, and a bevvy seems clear. Not sure what a kip is (a cracker or biscuit, maybe?) I know what a queue is, having stood in plenty, but have no idea why I would wait in a queue for the Khazi. And what in the world is a brolly? And where is blighty?

Help!

Amurican Jerry


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Morticia
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:20 AM

Butchers = look
kip = sleep or nap
Khazi = lavatory
Brolly = umbrella
and Blighty = UK


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:23 AM

"Ah, brilliant! Been having a Butcher's for your flats all day, Mate. Thought I'd cooked summat up. I'm well knackered. I can tell you! I could do with a bevvy and a kip!

Plus, some bloke diddled me brolly in the queue for the khazi in
blighty.

Butcher's = butchers hook, Cockney rhyming slang for having a LOOK
Knackered = Worn out/Tired
Bevvy = beverage/drink usually alchoholic
Kip = sleep not sure of origin
Diddled = fiddled/stole
Brolly= Umbrella
Khazie, more usually Carsie = Toilet
Blighty= British soldier slang for the UK, going home is described as going back to Blighty.

Giok


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:25 AM

Going home from abroad that is, a wound that got a soldier evacuated back to the UK from France in the 1st WW was known as a 'Blighty wound'
G.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:28 AM

try this translation service

"kip" I think is possibly of Norweigen origin and was used by sailors in the English port towns - used by George Orwell


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:30 AM

I'm a bit puzzled by the 'diddled' though. Usually means cheated or conned out of something. It's not some attempt at rhyming slang for urinated is it? (diddled=piddled=urinated into). Bevvy is an alocoholic drink, usually a beer (ale, lager, bitter, perhaps also cider) rather than a short.

"for your flats" is a bit confusing too. Another attempt at rhyming slang?


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM

I expect you knew flats that are apartments.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Dave Earl
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:41 AM

Just had a look at the strip on the net and suggest that what he is saying is "cocked something up".

Meaning he has got it wrong or made a mess of it.

Dave


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:46 AM

Ah, got it now but butchers is wrong


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:47 AM

It's not like any real Cockney dialect- so I expect it will turn out that the "cousin" is an impostor. Especially as 2 strips back, the letter that starts the thing off comes from Manchester.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:51 AM

I have been searching for your apartment all day long and thought that I must have made an error in the address LOL!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:51 AM

Thanks... the responses are as entertaining as the strip. And you're right... the phrase is "cocked summat up," not cooked. I never would have figured out some of the phrases. And thanks for the translating link. It's a lot more fun though, to have my English friends explain it to me.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:56 AM

I fear, Jerry, this was not written by an actual British person. The attempts at the slang are not at all convincing, though elements of it are correct. For a start, it mixes regional elements from different parts of the country in a rather   odd way. Mind you, it may have been written by a Brit ironically parodying our own speech. Or possibly written by a Brit ironically parodying an American trying to parody Brit-speak. You just never know, do you, me old china, sithee.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:01 AM

Nash, Greg: The cartoonist is definitely American. He does find a lot of humor in bringing in language and customs from other countries from time to time. Most of the time, he's poking fun at what he knows vest... us Americans.

Hey! He's a Boston Red Sox fan, had a Nomar Garciaparra bobblehead doll (until Bucky challenged the doll to a fight and broke it) and supposedly graduated from Lowe Tech if you believe his sweatshirt..

Jerry


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:02 AM

Faith, ya dinna ever! How's a bloke to tell? As the poet said, two peoples separated by a common language.

A


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:04 AM

some bloke diddled me brolly in the queue for the khazi in
blighty


The phrase "diddled me brolly" doesn't sound authentic to me. You would either say "diddled me out of me brolly" (i.e. conned or swindled me out of it), or use a more appropriate slang verb such as "nicked", "pinched", or even "'alf-inched" (rhyming slang for "pinched").

It sounds like the sort of dialogue an American would write for a supposed Brit (reminds me of that bloody awful character in Frasier, Daphne's brother, an American playing someone supposedly from Manchester but spoke with a sort of pseudo-cockney accent) ;-)

Mind you, I don't want to start a US v Brits feud here - I'm sure there must be equally bad examples of British "American" scripts :-)


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: MMario
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:10 AM

it's a friggin' cat! the "local" cat in the script doesn't speak standard US; so why should the UK cat speak standard Brit?


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM

A cock-up is an interesting expression and not as rude as it sounds.

When correcting a mistake in an account sheet, it was customary not to erase the wrong figure, but to put a fine line through it, and write the correct figure at an angle of about 45 Deg just after the wrong one. i.e. cocked up at an angle. So the term cock-up for a mistake was born.
Giok


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: MMario
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:17 AM

Paul says:I expect it will turn out that the "cousin" is an impostor. Especially as 2 strips back, the letter that starts the thing off comes from Manchester

so, a cat that travels from the UK to the US can't post a letter in manchester?


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:24 AM

Hey, hey now... no Culture Wars here! As Mario says, it's just a cartoon cat. The American Cat and dog don't speak American either. The proper American words used by cats and dogs are Woof and Meow.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:25 AM

........sounds like Dick van Dykespeak in Mary Poppins!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:29 AM

Thanks for posting this, I had been wondering but hadn't thought to ask - turns out Blighty was the only thing I hadn't gotten, so I must read the right books...


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:29 AM

so, a cat that travels from the UK to the US can't post a letter in manchester?

No, of course not but a native born and bred cat living in Manchester would NEVER speak like that. So (i) it's a london cat living in Manchester, or at the very least posting a letter there or is (ii) an imposter pretending to be from Manchester and getting the accent wrong.

I know which one I favo(u)r!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Arfur Dullard
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:32 AM

yeah.. cockney as imagined and written by yanks..

cor blimey dude !!!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:37 AM

Miserable old gits


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:40 AM

The author may have leaqrned his BritSpeak from novels, like yours truly did. That would explain the random mixing and also the use of 'khazi', which seems to have been the common spelling a generation or two ago.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Dave Earl
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:45 AM

It seems to me that "Britspeak" is what non British people think it is we speak rather than the spoken language we actually use.

Dave


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Scoville
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:47 AM

I love this cartoon, but I assumed he was poking fun at American misuse of UK slang (much like Australians must want to punch out every American who mentions "shrimp on the barbie" and like I used to want to slap every Northerner who marveled that I could speak standard English).


My favorite "Get Fuzzy" was the one where the guy is eating chocolate and Satchel asks for some. The guy tells him no because last time, it made the pets sick, but that they can have a "rice-based anti-plaque treat" instead. Bucky says, "Don't patronize me." Satchel says, "I'll eat it!". Ah, the difference between cats and dogs.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Sir Tommy Steele
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:58 AM

and fack me !!!..

wot abaht Don Cheadle in "Ocean's 11" !!!!???

wot a Barclays !!!!!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: The Walrus
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 11:20 AM

Giok,

I'd dispute your origins of 'cock up'

As I understood the origins, 'cock' was the typesetter's term for a single piece of movable type.

If one item of type was higher than the rest (either standing proud of the form or offset) it ruined the page - it was a 'cock-up'

W


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 11:30 AM

There seem to be several theories. Here's one from BBC h2g2

Although the phrase 'cock-up' might appear to have come about in a similar way to 'balls-up', its origins are actually in beer making. If the batch went bad, they turned the cock (ie tap, or faucet) up to drain the barrel. However, the word 'cock', a Middle and Old English word, is one of the many vulgarities for the penis. In London, though, Cockneys appear to have both terms in mind when they say 'Wotcher cock', which comes from the term 'cock sparrow' (pronounced 'sparrah'). It is a general term for a man, although 'cock sparrow' was usually saved for small boys. It has been used for about 300 years.

And, from Michael Quinon's excellent website, World Wide Words:

Oddly, in British English it is not these days a vulgarism, or at least only a very mild one. It comes from one of several senses of cock, to bend at an angle, as in?for example?cocking a gun or turning up the brim of one's headgear (so producing an old-time naval officer's cocked hat).

The use of cock-up to mean a blunder or error was originally British military slang dating from the 1920s. The slang sense of cock clearly had a lot to do with its adoption, but this hasn't stopped it being used in respectable publications, and modern British dictionaries mark it merely as informal or colloquial.

The longer phrase I used it in, "a cock-up on the [something] front" was coined in a BBC television comedy The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin some 20 years ago and has become a minor catchphrase. The original was "there's been a bit of a cock-up on the catering front", which was spoken by a former army officer, not over-blessed with savvy, who was totally confused by civilian life and had either forgotten to buy any food, or run out of money to do so.

[I'm indebted to Nigel Rees for confirming the provenance of this catchphrase.]


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 11:39 AM

I can hardly wait until tomorrow's strip. The visiting cat sounds just like my friend Leadfingers.. :-)

Jerry


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: JamesHenry
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 11:44 AM

In Shakesperes' day to be diddled was a reference to the sexual act. To have your brolly diddled in a queue for the khazi would seem very strange indeed.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Rob Henderson
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 11:48 AM

I wonder if it put its owner in a peoplery before it went on holiday to the US?


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:08 PM

They had to make the character speak in Mockney mate, 'cos nobody understands Mancunian!
Giok


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: MMario
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:09 PM

Cats don't have "owners" - they have staff.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Dave Earl
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:16 PM

By chance I found this in another Thread:-

"Two black balls one over the other is the signal for 'I am not under command' i.e. I've broken down, and of course the origin of the term 'a right balls up'. "

Talking here about nautical flag signals.

Dave


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bassic
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:19 PM

I`m afraid the link was irresistable ;-)

GUIDE CATS FOR THE BLIND
(words by Les Barker/music by Cindy Mangsen)
© 2005 Mrs. Ackroyd Music, MCPS / Compass Rose Music, BMI

The word 'futile' springs to mind;
Mission Impossible; yes, that's
The attempt to harness for mankind
The intelligence of cats.

You've made a basic error;
Now let me expound;
This master/servant thing's OK
But no, not that way round;

We don't do the faithful subject;
We don't do the daily grind;
You should never have attempted it;
Guide cats for the blind.

Give kitty so much trust
And we'll abuse the privilege;
You think you're going out?
You're opening the fridge.

You think I'm trying to help you?
I'm not serving man but mammon;
You think you've gained a faithful friend;
You've lost a plate of salmon.

I might lead you down the High Street;
I'll be back when I have dined;
We get very, very hungry being
Guide cats for the blind

It can't be very pleasant -
Of this I've little doubt -
To have your head stuck in a catdoor,
Whether facing in or out.

You could be here a day or two
One half out in the rain;
I've got to go; I've things to do;
Maybe I'll pass this way again.

A dog would go for help;
Cats are not that way inclined.
Cats have better things to do than being
Guide cats for the blind.

Of some matters I am ignorant,
But this I know for certain;
The best place for a blind man
Is not halfway up a curtain.

And why should he they have to be
Up on a roof at 4am?
It's the perfect place for me
But what's in it for him?

It was where I had to go
And he just tags along behind
I don't know why; only a fool would follow
Guide cats for the blind.

I once met a man called Pavlov;
From time to time, he rang a bell;
Simple toys make humans happy
But I have to say that, well,

I found it a disturbance, and
Poor chap, I think he knew it,
And soon he only rang his bell
When I wanted him to do it.

Did you ask for our assistance?
If you did, well we've declined;
Here we are, an oxymoron;
Guide cats for the blind.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:34 PM

The term "cock up" is also recorded as in use as early as 1860's

refering to a yard arm on a ship at 45 degrees against the mast as opposed to the horizontal position it should hold. From the same degree angle as the officer's cocked hat


Rsiss


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Dave Earl
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:39 PM

I thought the term for the state you describe was "cock-a-bill".

Dave


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:42 PM

No that's a cockbill. Yards a cockbill was used as a sign of mourning.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:59 PM

ah, slang, cant and vernacular! Even the practitioners don't know exactly what they mean, or where it started...they can only get the gist of it in context....and it is useful in identifying roughly where the user comes from!-


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 01:05 PM

If 'diddle' refers to the sexual act, then many a small dog would readily diddle a brolly, or the brolly owner's leg.

The actor playing Frasier's brother is English, I'm told, but not from Manchester, coming instead from East Grinstead in Surrey, hence the fake-sounding accent.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 01:16 PM

Not Frasier's brother, obviously - I meant sister, Daphne.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:21 PM

Frasier doesn't have a sister... you mean Daphne's brother.... who was played by Anthony LaPaglia, who is Australian rather than English and even more fake than East Grinstead!

LTS


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:34 PM

And weirdly, for an aside, I thought that Anthony LaPaglia was such a lousy actor (even Shatner was better) and so imp[ossible to watch, that he would never act again after Frasier. Now, he now plays lead in a serious role on TV as an Investigator in Without A Trace. He's borderline passable.

Maybe if they ever re-do Star Trek, he can play Captain Kirk.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:17 PM

I always wondered why Daphne was from Manchester & her loutish brother had a London accent!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: pavane
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:27 AM

It has been claimed that there can be more difference in dialect between neighbouring counties in England than across the whole of the USA.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:30 AM

Frasier's father was born in Droylsden, Manchester, England.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:35 AM

Droylsden Wakes

MAN
It's Droylsden Wakes, an' we're comin' to town,
To tell you of sommat of great renown;
An' if this owd jade'll let me begin,
aw'll show you how hard an' how fast Aw can spin,
So it's three-dy-well, three-dy-well, dan dum dill doe,
So it's three-dy-well, three-dy-well, dan dum dill doe.

WOMAN
Thou brags of thysel, but Aw dunno' think it's true,
For Aw will uphold thee, thy faults aren't a few,
For when thou has done, an' spun very hard,
Of this Aw'm well sure, thy work is ill-marred.
So it's etc...

MAN
Thou saucy owd jade, thou'd best howd thy tongue,
Or else Aw'll be thumpin' thee ere it be long,
An' if 'at Aw do, thou'rt sure for to rue,
For Aw can ha' mony a one's good as you.
So it's etc...

WOMAN
What is it to me who you can have?
Aw shanno' be long ere Aw'm laid i' my grave,
An' when 'at Aw'm dead, an' ha done what I can,
You may find one 'at'll spin as hard as Aw've done.
So it's etc ...

Can't quite see the urbane and snobbish Frasier Crane as the male part in this song, but Daphne might fill the distaff quite well.
G.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:04 AM

Jerry, how can you refer to Bucky the cat as dumb and obnoxious? I like Bucky! Yes, he's greedy, yes, he's mean to Satchel, but somehow he's always endearing.

If you really want dumb and obnoxious, look at the cartoons about Marmaduke, the untrained, unsupervised Great Dane.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:11 AM

Hey, Leenia:

Let me get this straight. Bucky IS dumb, selfish, obnoxious, insulting, prejudiced... the Archie Bunker of the cat world. And I think he's a great character. I love cats and have owned many in my life. They can be very loving and warm, but they can also be devious, obnoxious and are often full of themselves. I love cats and dogs for totally different reasons, and I think the Get FGuzzy strip gets both species just right. I couldn't chose between cats and dogs because they are so different in personalities. Get Fuzzy just exaggerates the difference in a way that I find hilarious.

And I agree with you, Bucky is very endearing. Occasionally, a soft side of Bucky shows through... like his love for smacky, who he originally wanted only because Satchel wanted him.

I never thought the Marmaduke strip was funny. It's not even as funny as Bazooka Joe comics.

Jerry

In today's strip, the slang looks more familiar, although I've never heard the phrase about going wobbly before.

The strip is driving me bonkers. :-)


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:28 AM

"Having a butcher's" is only used in the context of looking AT, not looking FOR as in this usage.
I think that the cat may be an imposter.
(I have not heard from Divis Sweeney for a few days...)


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Grab
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM

*Throwing* a wobbly = having a temper tantrum.

Graham.

PS. I'd always spell khazi that way.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:44 AM

Correct Grab! And Wobbly is also slang for the IWW (Industrial Workers of the World) and shortened rhyming slang for television (wobbly jelly = telly). I'nt slang great?


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 11:03 AM

I've been a comic connoisseur for over 50 years, and I just CANNOT get into "Get Fuzzy". But this bit with the language may win me over....maybe....

He is making a point I have tried to make for years.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 02:29 PM

It has been claimed that there can be more difference in dialect between neighbouring counties in England than across the whole of the USA.

I remember some Americans staying with friends some years ago being very surprised at the differences over short distances.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 03:36 PM

butcher's hook rhyming slang = look


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:15 PM

how in the world soes rhythming slang get created and propagated? Most of those would be totally opaque to anyone who doesn't know it. Is there NEW slang all the time, or just a standard repertoire, like Music Hall?


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:35 PM

Bill - rhyming slang seems to have originated well away from us in Yorkshire, but it does manage to get into everyday speak throughout the country. I could easily imagine myself saying 'I'll have a butcher's' meaning I was going to have a look. The odd thing is also that the rhyming slang often misses off the rhyming bit - hook in the above example.

It can be even more obscure, as it is possible to get rhyming slang for rhyming slang! For instance it might be said 'he fell on his aris' meaning 'he fell on his backside'. In this case aris stands for Aristotle meaning bottle, and that stands for 'bottle and glass' meaning arse.

And it is constantly updated, often invoking the names of current celebrities.

feast your minces on this!

Les


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Charmain
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:37 PM

I think its something that kind of grows and grows - there's new stuff about that relates to current celebraties etc but a lot of the old stuff endures - sometimes through "ironic" usage and sometimes because it has passed so much into the collective unconcious that it is now literally part of the language.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Charmain
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:38 PM

P.S is this thread music related? appears more B.S to me!!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM

I've always understood diddling to be what girls do when they ain't got a man (... no not knitting! ... or eating chocolate! ...)


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:44 PM

Thanks Les didnt know that one Its very funny!!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:46 PM

I don't think the dodgy Manchester accent in Frasier was the fault of fault of Jane Leeves, who played Daphne. I think teh people making the show rejected the accurate Mancester accent she offered them in favour of sonmething they thought Americans would be more likely to understand. And she wasn't born in Surrey, but in Ilford in Essex (though they've changed the county boundaries now to make out it isn't).

................
how in the world soes rhythming slang get created and propagated? Most of those would be totally opaque to anyone who doesn't know it.

That was the general idea originally, and I think it'd still be seen as a bonus to have it baffle an outsider. A lot of the old expressions have settled down so no one thinks of them as rhyming slang these days. I mean, I doubt if many people describing someone as "a berk" are thinking of the term as an abbreviated version of "Berkshire Hunt".


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:39 PM

"It sounds like the sort of dialogue an American would write for a supposed Brit (reminds me of that bloody awful character in Frasier"

... and that sort of garbage is what used to annoy Aussies about Hollywood's portrayal of Aussies...

The problem always traces back to the assumption (by Americans themselves!) of the incredibily low intelligence of Americans, rather than the (European style) faith of generally pitching things just a little ABOVE the average to encourage self education of the masses.


"shrimp"

Argggh! Don't come the Raw Prawn with me! We Aussies don't have "Shrimps" - although the English do (potted shrimps) - we only have "Prawns" - and if we did have "Shrimps", they would be tiny things - "Prawns" are HUGE... often an ounce or two EACH PRAWN...


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:40 PM

Yeah, this is definitely BS... just forgot to include the prefix. Maybe just as well... some of you who aren't bottom feeders might never a looked at it.. :-)

Jerry

A clone is welcome to move this, without my written and duly notorized permission.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:54 PM

Just thought you'd be interested to know that Julie Andrews couldn't do a cockney accent for her part as Eliza in My Fair Lady until she was taken aside for a couple of days and taught it.

By an American.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:30 PM

Kip has many meanings, including a brothel or doss-house(18th c. English).
To kip, or take a kip, meaning a nap, seems to have come from kip as a name for a lodging house, lodging, or, a bed. These were used in England in the 19th century and may still be used.
Kip seems not to have had common usage in North America. In the 19th c., it was a name for a bundle of hides but I think this usage has died.

Get Fuzzy was in the Sunday comics of our local paper, but we stopped out subscription, and I haven't seen it since.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:33 PM

G'day Gerry,

Way up above, Emma B thought that "kip" was of Norwegian origin - brought to British ports by sailors looking for a bed for the night.

The Oxford English Dictionary (when my computer installation of the full 22-volume OED works - after I've remembered to ... again ... kill Billy Gates's Windows XP "Security" Update XP KB17422!) gives the source as even closer to your ancestry: Danish "kippe" = hut. The English sense for a bed (for the night) is grouped with a sense meaning a brothel ... "horekippe" in Danish.

I'm surprised to find no entry in the OED for "khazi" ... I'm quite familiar with it in Australian usage (and yet it is also missing from Oxford's Australian National Dictionary!). had always thought it was a soldier's term ... probably from the Middle East ... brought back after the First or Second World War.

Interestingly, when I read the text out aloud ... I find it not to give it all an "Ocker" (coarse Australian) accent ... and I could understand every word! Frankly, a lot of it sounds like a recycled version of Barry Humphries Ocker parlance for his Barry ('Bazza') McKenzie character of the '70s.

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 03:36 AM

In support of Bob's comment, I found the original quote quite understandable and have experienced, in Australia, several of the terms used; khazi (=dunny) and kip (=sleep) I usually associate with someone from England but others have used the words in Melbourne and its environs.

Cheers, Rowan
Who has been known to lampoon such slang with such terms of approval as
"Bonzer! Ripper. Ock!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 04:07 AM

G'day again Jerry (I shouldn't try to push my 2-&-2-halves-finger-typing skills too far ... when my darling wife is standing at the door reminding me that we should be at a friend's party ... NOW!),

What I meant to say, in the last paragraph, was:
Interestingly, when I read the text out aloud ... I find it hard not to give it all an "Ocker" (coarse/slangy Australian) accent ... and I could understand every word! Frankly, a lot of it sounds like a recycled version of Barry Humphries' Ocker parlance for his Barry ('Bazza') McKenzie character of the '70s.

I would have found almost everything the visiting cat has to say entirely in line with what "Bazza" might have said ... standing at the door, trying to cadge a kip and a beer or ten from a chance acquaintance in London's Earls Court ... back in the comic strips / novels / films of The Advemtures of Barry McKenzie.

Maybe the author of Get Fuzzy has been trawling through the wrong stack of old comics ... ?

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Betsy
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 04:45 AM

Hi Jerry,
"Cock-up" is from the time of early firearms where the forerunner of the rifle - more likely a blunderbuss or whatever it was called , was filled with gunpowder,and ball (or shot).
A small amount of gunpowder was placed in a compartment above the trigger mechanism , to be hit by the "hammer" which was pulled back into a "Cocked" (ready) position.The hammer would spark the powder , so that that the gunpowder in the chamber would ignite and fire the ball.
When the firearm refused to discharge, (these were early days of development don't forget) , the reason was usually that the trigger had not made the hammer fall due to a mechanical fault and therefore the "Cocked" position had remained up.
Cock-up is used when a SIMPLE action, situation , procedure, circumstance (which shouldn't REALLY happen) goes entirely wrong....

When I arrived at work I noticed something strange , the car park was empty , the whole place was quiet , Shit - it was Sunday - my day off - what a cock-up.
As for diddled , THAT has already been covered quite well BUT failing that the correct answer hasn't been yet provided I'm going for a typo. If he is in a queue for the khazi ( which usually a sit-down toilet in male-speak )perhaps "piddled" on ( or in ) me brolly would work. "Diddled me brolly" doesn't convey any meaning , perhaps he was just trying to say stole me brolly , but now we are going in for guesswork and slang is normally fairly accurate .

One thing for certain, by mistake ,accident, Empire or whatever ,the world was given a great language to have fun with, when it got English in its' many forms . Long may it live and enjoy the fun you and the thread subscribers appear to be having with it.

Cheers

Betsy.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: JamesHenry
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:20 AM

Perhaps "diddled" is a reference to the nursury rhyme, "Hey diddle, diddle, the cat and the fiddle" ??


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:29 AM

"khazi" not in the OED? I find that hard to believe, though it might be a matter of spelling.

Longmans has it under "kazi", with "karzy" as an alternative - neither of which I have ever come across in real life, unlike "khazi", which rather strangely isn't included.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Les from Hull
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 11:57 AM

The British-American American-British Dictionary

Curious Americans may also like to note that khazi has its own rhyming slang - 'Ille Nastase'!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 04:05 PM

New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (1993 edition) has:

"karzy n. slang. Also -ey, -s-, c-. M20. [Alt. of It. casa house.] A lavatory."


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 05:48 PM

Karzy

G'day MgGrath of Harlow,

(Posting Sunday morning ... after the 'Cat went 503 last night ...)

OK ... "Karzy" was the one alternative spelling I didn't try! (I tried "Khazi" (my most familiar spelling) - plus "kazi" (an Oriental magistrate!), "Kharzi", "Kharzy", "Kharzey" ... and "Carsey" ... which is the first citation in the OED - but didn't work in the 'headword' search!

I see they derive it from the Italian for house ... I guess that I was seduced by the belief we had a word of Eastern origin.

[Corruption of It. casa house.]    = water-closet.
   1961 Partridge Dict. Slang Suppl. 1029/1 Carsey,+a w.c. 1965 Daily Mail 2 Oct. 5/4 Where do you spend a penny? (a) Toilet+(d) Karzy. 1966 D. Francis Flying Finish ix. 118, I was in the cockpit most of the time.+ I went aft to the karzy once. 1967 J. Burke Till Death us do Part v. 84 Have you seen the carsy? Just a bucket with a seat on top. 1968 T. E. B. Clarke Trail of Serpent xiii. 122 You made a real thorough search? Everywhere? Outhouses, karzey, the lot? 1969 K. Giles Death cracks Bottle iv. 38 Apart from a working pee none of my ladies nor me got out of here. There's only one door to the carsey. 1970 G. F. Newman Sir, You Bastard 262 Visits to the karsey

Regard(les)s,

Bob


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 11:56 PM

Another meaning for "kip" is distinctively Australian; it is the thin piece of timber (about 1" wide and 6" long) on which you balance two pre-dismal guernsey pennies before tossing them in the air at a swy game. Supposedly illegal, swy games are commonly observed on Anzac Day.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: The Walrus
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 04:59 AM

GUEST,Rowan,

"...the thin piece of timber (about 1" wide and 6" long) on which you balance two pre-dismal guernsey pennies before tossing them in the air at a swy game..."

Would this the the infamous game of "two-up" ?

W


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 06:25 PM

The Walrus:

Yup!

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 09:33 PM

G'day The Walrus,

That's "Swy = Zwei - German for "Two"(up). there are a surprising number of German words in the Australian slang ... from the Gold Rush Days, at the very least.

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 10:58 PM

There were many German migrants - my relatives allegedly walked overland from Adelaide to the Mary River valley in SE Qld. There are many German Lutherans in SA and Qld, as well as areas in other states.

The dates are a bit vague for me, but easily 1840s-60s - my relatives came out of Prussia because of certain unrest there well before WWI.
My maternal grandfather tramped thru France in WWI, and served as a military prison escort guard in Oz in WWII. His wife destroyed out of fear a century old family heirloom - a silver ring with a swatiska.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 01:00 AM

Now that we're engaging in thread creep I suppose I could mention that Northcote, where I spent a lot of my youth, had a thriving German community (north of Rukkers' Hill) at the turn of the 19th century; that German community created the grandest of the floral arches for the Duke (of York's?) State visit at around that time. At the outset of WW1 the whole lot of them was sent to the Wimmera (at that stage about as developed as the Simpson Desert is now) as 'internment'; most became wheat farmers. Some of the street names around Northcote got changed but the cemetery survived.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 02:32 AM

G'day Fooles ...

There had to be an excuse for the Piano Accordion Mania ;-) ...!

I guess this is a generalisation, but we seem to have had three distinct "waves" of (~) German immigration if the 1800s:

1: The 'religious / economic' refugees of the 1830s. Scottish Presbyterian Settlement Societies sent all these lovely wine-growing types to South Australia - and sent dour Scots Presbyterians to New Zealand ... Hey, we're not complaining!

2: In the 1860s it was definitely refugees, getting away from Bismarck's Prussian thugs. Many came to South Australia - and found that Uncle Hans (&c) had already got all the nice vine-growing land - so they trekked (often having built their own 'trekking carts' ... what the Yanks think are Amurican covered wagons) up the Murray / Murrimbidgee River systems and pioneered much of our Riverina.

3: The final refugees, as Bismarck conquered ... sorry ... united Germany came out in the 1880s ... and seem to have gone further north ... lots of their descendants around Toowoomba, these days.

I guess your 'German' maternal Grandfather and my 'English' paternal Grandfather marched along parrallel paths ... in both World Stoushes! Granddad came to Aussie, from the Manchester region, soon after his Dad died in 1910. He was made to work through his carpentry apprenticeship, before enlisting - then sailed with the Light Horse. It became clear this wasn't a cavalry war - not in Europe, anyway - and they were retrained as artillery ... so he came back as a Gunner / Driver.

He stayed in the Reserves (Artillery) and was straight back in for 1938 ... served with anti-Naval guns at Fremantle, then trained in Ordinance ... then was sent to guard Hay Prison Camp. He was senior non-com at Hay, at the time of the Japanese breakout from Cowra. (And, in my photographic employment, I worked worked with the bloke who was senior non-com at Cowra during the break-out!)

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:54 AM

Bob Bolton!


Phzzzzzzzzzzzzzztttttttttttt!


I think THIS is the correct thread for your insult Bob! {:P


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: pavane
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 07:42 AM

Interesting about the Khazi/carsey being from Casa=House.
The Welsh call it "ty bach", from "house(ty) little (bach)"


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Helen
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:52 PM

Creeping back to the original thread question: in the Get Fuzzy cartoon on Sept 23 2006 you'll probably get the point about needing an English to English translation when Bucky says that he'll finally have someone to talk to and then realises he can't understand a word.

Sorry for the backwards thread creep. I'll let go of its tail now and let it slide back to where it was. :-)

Helen


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Forsh
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:05 PM

British people use kip to mean either a nap or a longer sleep; it can also mean the idea or act of sleeping, as in "Will you be quiet? I'm trying to get some kip in here!" It can also be a verb: "They kipped down for the night".

It's just possible that if British people knew more about its low- life origins they might not use it so much. The ultimate source is probably the Danish word kippe for a hut or a mean alehouse. It was first recorded in the middle of the eighteenth century as an Irish slang term for a brothel. The earliest example known is from Oliver Goldsmith's The Vicar of Wakefield. As Goldsmith was Irish, educated in Dublin, the implication is that the word was first used in that city. It has long continued to be used there in that way, and appears in compound form in James Joyce's Ulysses of 1922: "I saw him, kipkeeper!". That word is remembered in a 1994 book with the title Dublin Tenement Life: "Now we didn't call them 'madams', the outsiders called them madams. We called them 'kip-keepers'. The houses that they lived in were called kips". Other names were kip house or kip shop.

By the latter part of the nineteenth century in Britain (as opposed to Ireland) the word had gone further down in the world to mean a common lodging-house for tramps and the homeless. Soon after, it transferred in sense from the place where you sleep to the act of sleeping itself (though in Scotland the word can mean a bed). In the twentieth century it shifted still further away from slang towards the modern informal or colloquial usage.

It does suggest that if you speak of a quick kip, you should be careful in what country you say it ...
SOURCE:http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-kip1.htm
That's my wee contribituion hiney, noo divvent gi is ony mar bither!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 03:15 AM

It's not the only word in respectable usage that might be ashamed of its origins- rapberry (for the derisive noise) and burk or berk, for a pillock, would be less acceptable if users knew their etymology.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:31 AM

The link to the cartoon above from Helen shows one of the characters saying "your china plate is a bit gormy". China plate = mate, but I've never heard anyone say that in full. With rhyming slang, you usually leave off the bit that actually rhymes, which is what makes it difficult for 'outsiders' to understand. It was originally spoken that way for this reason, i.e. to converse without being understood by eavesdroppers.

As for "gormy", I've never heard it. What does it mean - "gormless"?

(Yes, "berk" was used in prime time shows like Steptoe & Son on BBC TV in the 1960s - I can only assume the BBC censors didn't know what it really meant. However, through such 'innocent' use, it has come to mean 'fool', or 'pillock' as Paul Burke says above.)


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:39 AM

If the origin of 'berk' is as given earlier in the thread, shouldn't it be pronounced 'bark'? (Unless you are in California of course)

I still haven't worked out the 'raspberry' one.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:47 AM

Raspberry tart


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:48 AM

I suppose the short answer to 'berk/bark' is that Cockneys seldom use RP. It's interesting to note in that respect that what constitutes a London lower- class accent seems to have changed radically since Dickens' time, say the 1830s/40s. Sam Weller particularly, and low- life London characters as in Oliver Twist etc., show no sign whatsoever of rhyming slang, in fact the main characteristic noted is a V/W inversion ("werry good, Sam Veller"). One assumes Dickens knew what he was talking about, he lived among them.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: The Walrus
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:32 AM

On the subject of less than respectible rhyming slang terms in common usage, one could add:

"Wick" (as in "Gets on my wick") - Hampton Wick : Prick

"Cobblers" (used to mean nonsense, rubbish) - Cobbler's Awls : Balls

"Bottle" (moral fibre/courage as in "Lost his bottle") there is some dispute as to whether this rhyme (Bottle and glass) relates to 'class' or "arse" (relating back to the Georgian/Victorian term 'Bottom' to convey solidity or moral substance).

As to the original use of rhyming slang It is said that it was devised for use by the criminal element of society, but why would they drop the almost impenetrable cant for a 'code' that was fairly easily broken by anyone with a similar background. Personally, I feel it was more likely the domain of 'cheapjacks' and 'patterers', those who made their livings selling cheap or inferior goods, often using wit or a quick tongue as sales tools (think of the salesmen at the likes of Petticoat Lane Market in London.

W


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 06:21 PM

While I was having a kip last night (at home and solo) I remembered another term used in Australia for one's sleeping place.

Donga, (pronounced dong-'ga rather than donger in the context where I learned it but recently I've heard much younger people pronounce it the latter way.

I first came across the word when I went to Mawson in 1969. I've been able to trace its etymology only as far as the Middle East and North Africa where it meant 'wadi', so I presume it was picked up there by Australian troops who would shelter in such places if possible, rather than in more exposed locations. I don't know whether the Australian sense of the term is used elsewhere and I've never heard any rhyming slang (Ancient or Modern) applied to it either.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:57 PM

G'day Paul Burke,

You wrote (above):
It's interesting to note in that respect that what constitutes a London lower- class accent seems to have changed radically since Dickens' time, say the 1830s/40s. Sam Weller particularly, and low-life London characters as in Oliver Twist etc., show no sign whatsoever of rhyming slang, in fact the main characteristic noted is a V/W inversion ("werry good, Sam Veller"). One assumes Dickens knew what he was talking about, he lived among them.

In Mayhew's books (~ 1850 - 1860) - perhaps the first systematic reporting of London's lower classes - he says the Cockney's 'secret' speech was mainly "back-talk" ... the important words (roughly) spelled backwards - as in the well-known "yob" for "boy". He gives many examples (the books are not where I am typing this) and it is noticeable that many of the words have moved away from a 'strict' backward spelling to less obvious forms. In the (~1980s ... ?) BBC TV series on the history of the English Language, they have 'footage' of Cockney traders at the morning markets ... still using "back-talk" (with subtitles from the Beeb ...) to discuss prices and bargaining. That suggests the "back-talk" secret speech had already endured for 1¼ centuries!

The same series may also cover rhyming slang, which I seem to remember as only coming into fashion around the 1880s. I also have heard that its main use is putting on a front for the tourists (or TV programs) - not covert discussion.

It's interesting just how "Germanic" the speech recorded by Dickens sounds ... Perhaps it is a real adoption of "The Queen's English", as Victoria was not taught English until she was 3 years old ... and I have heard that she never lost her German accent.

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Grab
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 04:54 PM

how in the world soes rhythming slang get created and propagated? Most of those would be totally opaque to anyone who doesn't know it.

Surely that's the point of a lot of region-specific stuff? Us-and-them...

Is there NEW slang all the time, or just a standard repertoire, like Music Hall?

Oh yes. Ask your average Brit how much an Archer is, for instance. (It's £2k, from the amount Jeffrey Archer paid a prostitute.) Probably it's not in wide use amongst younger people who don't remember it, but your typical cabbie or market-stall bloke would definitely know.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,IBO
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:04 PM

ANY BLOKE WHO LIVES IN LONDON IS KNOWN AS A COCKNEY,BUT IF HE MOVED TO NEWCASTLE IT WOULD MEAN HE HAD NO PENIS.NEE COCK


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:13 PM

What a pity I never looked at this thread before ! Fascinating stuff , but I dont speak Cockney Rhyming slang very much , Do I ??


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,IBO
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:27 PM

MOST PEOPLE IN LONDON COULD BE CALLED BANKERS,WHICH IN RHYMING SLANG MEANS THEY DONT SOCIALISE MUCH.YOUR RIGHT,IT IS FASCINATING.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Bert
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:31 PM

...ANY BLOKE WHO LIVES IN LONDON IS KNOWN AS A COCKNEY...

Strictly speaking a Cockney is someone born within the sound of Bow Bells. That's St. Mary Le Bow in cheapside and not the town of Bow further East.

Back slang is used by Butchers and to a lesser extent grocers and is still a secret language.

Rhyming slang was originally used in the building trade and has now become widespread with new words being added all the time. It is quite in order to make up one of your own and let people guess the meaning.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: JamesHenry
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:43 PM

"Back slang is used by butchers and to a lesser extent grocers and is still a secret language"

"NEE COCK"

Also used by Geordie butchers and grocers apparently.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:04 PM

...rhyming slang, which I seem to remember as only coming into fashion around the 1880s.

You are getting on a bit Bob Bolton!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:10 AM

"Wick" (as in "Gets on my wick") - Hampton Wick : Prick

This one's a bit puzzling. Why isn't the expression "Gets on my Hampton" then?

I've certainly heard "Hampton" used for "prick", and the usual procedure with rhyming slang is to drop the part that actually rhymes, e.g. china = china plate = mate. Why is this expression different?

[I remember there was a song by the "Carry-On..." team (from the British series of vulgar comedy movies) called "The Day King Henry Got His Hampton Court", which was a play on the rhyming slang meaning of "Hampton"]


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:49 AM

Some AUssie cooks on TV shows use

Harold - Harold Holt = Salt.

Harold Holt - ex Aussie PM/


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 08:08 AM

Going back a few years, some E.London friends, when they thought a meal was overdue would say
What's the bobby on the frank
short for
Whats the Bobby Moore on the Frank Boff
rhyming slang for
what's the score on the scoff?
convential slang for
Any information about the feeding arrangements.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: Les from Hull
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:01 PM

I see that the English cat has now exposed his roots. You might need to read this important folksong reference!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:15 PM

As far as I know, 'BLIGHTY' derives from a Hindi word 'Belayati', referring to a 'foreign place' or, more specifically, Europe.


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:29 AM

In Norfolk UK (and maybe elsewhere) people form a Christmas Savings Club, and put in a certain amount every week, paid to a trusted member who banks it and doles it out in December. This has always been called a Christmas Diddlum (or Diddle'em) the idea being that sometimes the 'trusted' member pockets the lot and vanishes!


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Subject: RE: English To English Translation Needed
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:00 PM

Yea not for the first time nor last
Remember Christmas Hampers did not materialise one year

Bad time of year for it too!

Ray


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