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is Rattlin Bog Irish?

DigiTrad:
GREEN GRASS GREW ALL AROUND
THE RATTLIN' BOG


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog (53)
'Hole in the Ground' question (17)
Lyr Req: Bog Down in the Valley / Rattlin Bog (28)
Lyr Req: ...the green grass grew all around (15)
Lyr/Chords Req: The Rattlin' Bog (12)


Animaterra 05 Mar 99 - 09:28 AM
Wolfgang 05 Mar 99 - 10:04 AM
Jon W. 05 Mar 99 - 10:08 AM
Animaterra 05 Mar 99 - 01:08 PM
Bert 05 Mar 99 - 01:13 PM
SeanM 05 Mar 99 - 01:28 PM
Jeremy J Woodland 05 Mar 99 - 01:50 PM
Don Meixner 05 Mar 99 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Skierhound@msn.com 22 Jun 01 - 05:31 PM
Sorcha 22 Jun 01 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,Philippa 22 Jun 01 - 06:24 PM
Noreen 22 Jun 01 - 06:28 PM
gnu 22 Jun 01 - 06:33 PM
bill\sables 22 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM
Noreen 22 Jun 01 - 07:15 PM
Sorcha 22 Jun 01 - 07:46 PM
Noreen 22 Jun 01 - 08:08 PM
Devilmaster 22 Jun 01 - 10:57 PM
Amergin 22 Jun 01 - 11:02 PM
Brían 22 Jun 01 - 11:13 PM
Gypsy 23 Jun 01 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,Les Jones, once of Ellesmere Port now of Man 23 Jun 01 - 03:07 AM
roopoo 23 Jun 01 - 03:20 AM
Malcolm Douglas 23 Jun 01 - 08:12 AM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 23 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM
Robin2 23 Jun 01 - 03:28 PM
Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) 24 Jun 01 - 01:14 AM
Lyndi-loo 25 Jun 01 - 04:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 01 - 10:51 AM
Sorcha 25 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM
Malcolm Douglas 25 Jun 01 - 11:57 AM
IanC 25 Jun 01 - 12:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 01 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Emmanuelle 01 Oct 03 - 02:21 PM
s&r 01 Oct 03 - 07:11 PM
s&r 01 Oct 03 - 07:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Oct 03 - 07:38 PM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 02 Oct 03 - 11:35 AM
Nerd 02 Oct 03 - 12:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Oct 03 - 02:46 PM
Herga Kitty 02 Oct 03 - 05:43 PM
Tyke 03 Oct 03 - 03:00 PM
Reiver 2 03 Oct 03 - 07:00 PM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Oct 03 - 08:08 PM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Oct 03 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,Annie & Matt 17 Feb 04 - 05:58 PM
Pexx97 17 Feb 04 - 06:47 PM
Big Jim from Jackson 17 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM
johnfitz.com 17 Feb 04 - 07:52 PM
Lighter 18 Feb 04 - 07:20 AM
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Subject: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Animaterra
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 09:28 AM

Rattlin' Bog- Couldn't find it in the DT. I've seen it attributed as an Irish song. Is it?


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 10:04 AM

Animaterra,
I don't know whether it is Irish but I know it's in the DT. However, if you read this old thread you'll understand why I never would blame (flame?) you for not finding it.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Jon W.
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 10:08 AM

I first heard it on a recording by the Clancy Bros. and their family, who were definitely Irish. Whether it was adapted from a song of another nationality, I don't know.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Animaterra
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 01:08 PM

Thanks, Wolfgang- now I understand why I couldn't find it!


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Bert
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 01:13 PM

It's a version of "And the green grass grew all around" which I thought was English. Don't know which came first though.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: SeanM
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 01:28 PM

It's also akin to 'Good Luck to the Barleymow' and a host of others. I've heard tell of songs like it in almost every known culture, used as a memory game by children, and apparently resurrected as a drinking game. I don't think there's a verifiable way to link any particular nationality or race to this TYPE of song... but for the particular version, the search continues...

M


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Jeremy J Woodland
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 01:50 PM

I have an old book here of "Irish Pub Sings," rattlin bog is included in it.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Don Meixner
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 03:26 PM

Ani, Yup. Don


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: GUEST,Skierhound@msn.com
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:31 PM

I nead the song Rattlin Bog please help me. I nead Artists and tytels of CDs that have the song


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:35 PM

Click me for Rattlin Bog! e mail sent........


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:24 PM

The tune is often played for céili dancing ... of course it doesn't get longer each time round as in the song.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Noreen
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:28 PM

But does anyone know of a CD with the song on, as requested? Can't say I do.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:33 PM

As opposed to Rattlin' Snake, which is, of course, American. Hey, it's Friday night.... and I ain't got nobody, can't sing worth t*** and don't know the words...


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: bill\sables
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM

We sang this song in Durham / Northumberland UK in the late 50's early 60's. The verses were;
    There was a Bog, a rattling bog
    and in the bog there was a tree
    and on the tree there was a Limb
    And on the Limb there was a Branch,
    On the branch there was a twig
    On the Twig there was a Nest,
    On the nest there was an egg
    On the egg there was a lion, (Lions were printed on eggs in the UK at that time)
    On the lion there was a bird
    On the bird there was a feather
    From the feather they made a bed
    On the bed there was a maid
    On the maid there was a man
    From the man there came a seed
    From the seed there came a tree


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Noreen
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:15 PM

This was before National Curriculum Science, bill... *grin*


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:46 PM

Noreen, I found several recordings on a Google search and sent him that in the same e mail.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Noreen
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 08:08 PM

Thanks, Sorch.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:57 PM

If your in Canada, Irish Decendants did a really good version of it on Gypsies and Lovers.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:02 PM

Our own Seamus Kennedy covers it on his Back By Popular Demand 1.....he can be found on cdbaby.com.....


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Brían
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:13 PM

I definitley heard a french-canadian version in french on wmpg.org. I don't recall the singer. I'm sure they borrowed it from some scottish or irish singer.

Brían.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Gypsy
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:08 AM

Bill, ye gave me verses i never did see before. Thankee kindly!


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: GUEST,Les Jones, once of Ellesmere Port now of Man
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:07 AM

I remember 'Fine bog a handsome bog ......' but Rae & rattlin sounds scots


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: roopoo
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:20 AM

The Corries did it too, so I wondered if it was Scots.

Andrea


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:12 AM

Neither Irish nor Scottish in origin, this song and its relatives have been most often found in tradition in the South of England and in Wales, though examples have also been recorded from Scotland, Ireland, Canada and the USA; there are also close analogues found in France, Britanny, Switzerland and Denmark.  Peter Kennedy (Folksongs of Britain and Ireland, 1975) was inclined to think the Welsh and Breton versions the oldest, but others would perhaps disagree.  It may perhaps be that the rattling bog part was introduced in Ireland; it seems that most traditional versions refer instead to green grass or green leaves.

The tune commonly associated with Rattlin' Bog is used in Northwest England for the Morris, and in Ireland for the Polka; whether originally English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish is hard to say, as there are resemblances to many other tunes from all four countries.  I suspect that it's a descendant of Green Grow the Rashes, which would make the tune Scottish originally, but that's only a guess.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM

Seamus Ennis sang this for me in our Belsize Park flat in 1952. This recording was later included on our Folkways recording, "Field Trip Ireland." You may order it in audiotape form (and maybe CD) from Smithsonian/Folkways Recordings. They're in D.C. Seamus sang it as in Irish song. Our own Kentucky version is, "The Tree in the Valley-O," probably from England.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Robin2
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:28 PM

If anyone is interested, my band has a mp3 of the song you can download for free at:
http://www.mp3.com/tenpennybit

It's also on our live album.

Robin


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:14 AM

The tune is an Irish polka whose name I'm not sure of. The song tends to be "Danny Boy/Unicorn Irish". Hard to tell where it came from.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:19 AM

There is a Welsh equivalent of this song entitled "Y Pren ar y BRyn" (the tree on the hill). I have a vinyl of the Corries singing Rattlin' Bog, but I acn't remember offhand which; can look it up


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:51 AM

There was probably a dispute once whether it was originally Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal...(I'd say it was the latter meself.)


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM

LOL, Malcolm! If anyone would know, it would be you (grin).I find 'em, you document 'em. Maybe we outta go into Show Bizness, eh?


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:57 AM

But what would we call ourselves?  Perhaps best if nobody answers that...

Actually, McGrath has a good point; it would be surprising if the Everlasting Circle theme were not a very old one, though obviously we can only judge from the evidence we have.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:08 PM

Yar, Kevin ... Yer rong! my mate says Neanderthals can't sing!!!

;-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:28 PM

Cro-Magnon bigotry I'd call that...


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: GUEST,Emmanuelle
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:21 PM

I can recommand a version of the song by Seamus Ennis who seems to have added quite a bit to it. Some of you might even want to hear it. The song lasts approximately 8 minutes...so be prepared to sing along and have fun!
http://www.friend.ly.net/~kellybr/music.html
I found a site where to by his CD from :
Title : 'By popular Demand vol.1'
http://cdbaby.com/cd/seamuskennedy6


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: s&r
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 07:11 PM

We know the tune as the Siege of Ennis, and play it with our Ceilidh Band. We learned it from the dots; will post when I can find them. The band were in Ireland; we went to Ennis, and asked the local tourist information about the Siege, only to be told there never was one - it's just a dance.

But I believe there is a regatta at Dingle


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: s&r
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 07:25 PM

It isn't the same tune as under Siege of Ennis in previous threads: that's not unusual with dance tunes.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 07:38 PM

In Ceolas, The Fiddlers Companion. AKA Bog Down in the Valley.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 11:35 AM

The Corries used to sing it as well and also the Irish Rovers.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 12:59 PM

The song is also known in Italian, and one of the Alan Lomax Italian collection CDs has that version. In Italy, it was part of a ritual involving an actual tree, though I don't remember the details and am separated from my CD collection for the moment (durn job!)

The French Canadian versions are not copied from some Irish or Scottish singer, but likely derived from the French versions. They generally begin:

Derriere chez nous,
voulez-vous savoir mesdames,
derriere chez nous,
voulez-voulez savoir ce qu'il y a?

Il ya-t-un arbre
un arbre d'amour mesdames,
Il ya-t-un arbre
un arbre d'amour joli

It then goes on to talk about branches, leaves, etc.

So there's no bog, and the tree is located "behind our house." The guys I remember singing it in the early 90s were called Hommage aux aines, but I don't know if they're still doing it.

The widespread distribution would suggest it's fairly old, but Neanderthal may be going back a year or two too far!

Maybe, like bagpipes, we can argue about whether the Romans spread it to Britain, or whether it was dreamed up with innate Celtic genius.

Or maybe not.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:46 PM

A friend calls these songs "chain letter," since they are everywhere and continually add new lines. Because they are fun to sing, they are picked up by everyone and spread rapidly. As a kid, we sang about the hole in the log. It is almost impossible to determine the source.

Another kind adds new verses, such as the Jersey (French) song, "Sus man j'valet," the source for the other two variants, one a loggers song in Canada (Were you ever in Quebec?), and a "chantey" generally known as "Donkey Riding." The Jersey version is about various towns along the coast of France while the chantey version mentions ports all over the world.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:43 PM

I think Graeme Knights just makes it up each time he sings it....


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Tyke
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:00 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Reiver 2
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:00 PM

Noreen asked about Cds with this song. I have two. One is on Vol. 1 of a 3 CD set called "Songs of Ireland". Recorded in Canada and features various artists.This whole CD, however is done by the Dubliners. The title is given as "Bog Down In the Valley". The other one is also part of a 3 CD set (this time Vol. 3) "The Irish Rovers: 36 All-Time Greatest Hits" and titled "The Rattling Bog." Recorded by Universal Music Special Markets, Inc., Universal City, CA 91508

I also have a 4 volume set of books called "Folksongs and Ballads Popular in Ireland." Volume 3 has "The Bog Down In the Valley-O." The notes for it say, "A nonsense-cumulative life-cycle song found all over Europe in one form or another. Sometimes the cycle is complete, as in some English West County versions. The song given here is quite well known in and around Dublin but curiously not often heard in other parts of the country. As 'The Tree In the Wood' it can be found in Cecil Sharp's 'Folksongs From Somerset' (4th series). Only the Dublin version introduces a flea into the story."

The version in the book is pretty much what the Dubliners sing on the CD I have. It goes tree, limb, branch, twig, nest, egg, bird, feather, flea.

Reiver 2


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:08 PM

They're wrong about that flea. It appears in (at least) some Western English forms of the song as well. (e.g. Kennedy, Folk Songs of Britain and Ireland, 226-7: The Tree on the Hill, a set from Morvah, Cornwall; with translation into Cornish).

The Bog variant turns up in East Anglia, incidentally; but in that case it seems likely to have got there from Ireland via the fishing trade, which involved a lot of song-exchanging in both directions (Harry Cox's set of Black Velvet Band, localised to Belfast and later popularised by the Dubliners, seems to be another example of that interchange).


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Subject: ADD: Langt udi Skoven (Tree in the Forest)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 09:09 PM

Here's a Danish form of the song. No traditional source is specified, unfortunately.


LANGT UDI SKOVEN (THE TREE IN THE FOREST)

(Danish tradition: from the repertoire of Engel Lund, 1936)

Langt udi Skoven laa et lille Bjerg,
Aldrig saae jeg saa deiligt et Bjerg,
Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven.

Deep in the forest stands a little hill,
I never saw so sweet a little hill,
Hill, standing deep in the forest.


Paa det lille Bjerg der stod et lille Træ,
Aldrig saae jeg saa deiligt et Træ,
Træet paa Bjerget,
Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven.

On the little hill, there grew a little tree,
I never saw so sweet a little tree,
Tree on the hill,
Hill, standing deep in the forest.


Paa det lille Træ der var en lille Gren
Aldrig saae jeg saa deilig en Gren;
Grenen paa Træet,
Træet paa Bjerget,
Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven.

On the little tree, there grew a little branch,
I never saw so sweet a little branch,
Branch on the tree,
Tree on the hill,
Hill, standing deep in the forest.


Paa den lille Gren der var en lille Kvist,
Aldrig saae jeg saa deilig et Kvist,
Kvisten paa Grenen,
Grenen paa Træet,
Træet paa Bjerget,
Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven.

On the little branch, there grew a little twig,
I never saw so sweet a little twig,
Twig on the branch,
Branch on the tree,
Tree on the hill,
Hill, standing deep in the forest.


Paa den lille Kvist der var et lille Blad,
Aldrig saae jeg saa deiligt et Blad,
Bladet paa Kvisten,
Kvisten paa Grenen,
Grenen paa Træet,
Træet paa Bjerget,
Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven.

On the little twig, there grew a little leaf,
I never saw so sweet a little leaf,
Leaf on the twig,
Twig on the branch,
Branch on the tree,
Tree on the hill,
Hill, standing deep in the forest.



Engel Lund: A First Book of Folk-Songs, Oxford University Press, 1936.


X:1
T:Langt Udi Skoven
T:The Tree in the Forest
B:Engel Lund, A First Book of Folk-Songs, OUP 1936
S:Danish tradition (unspecified)
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:3/4
K:F
"Allegretto"A2 A A A A|B A G F E2|F2 F A G F|
w:Langt ud-i Sko-ven laa et lil-le Bjerg, Al-drig saae jeg saa
(EF) D E C2|F G A B c2-|c4 A F|G2 F2 z2|
w:dei--ligt et Bjerg, Bjerg-et lig-ger langt_ ud-i Sko-ven.
A A A A A A|B A G F E2|F2 FA G F|
w:Paa det lil-le Bjerg der stod et lil-le Træ, Al-drig saae jeg saa
(EF) D E C2|:"Ad libitum"F2 F A (GC):|
w:dei--ligt et Træ, Træ-et paa Bjer-get,
(FG) A B c2-|c4 A F|G2 F2 z2|]
w:Bjer-get lig-ger langt_ ud-i Sko-ven.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: GUEST,Annie & Matt
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 05:58 PM

We have a family member who is described as "Bog Irish" can someone please explain what this means, we are very curious.

Thank you

Annie & Matt


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Pexx97
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 06:47 PM

Someone from Ireland who can trace his ancestry way back within the country is traditionally known as "Bog Irish".


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM

Another recording can be found on one of Schooner Fare's albums. I don't remember which one. I think the song is led by Tom Rowe, with Steve and Chuck helping on the chorus. Like Seamus Kennedy's version, some liverties appear to have been taken with the sequence of objects in the verses. Good song; fun to sing.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:52 PM

We do a version of Ratlin Bog on our latest CD, check it out here: The Greatest Camp Songs of all time
It's a great song, one of our most requested.


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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish?
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 07:20 AM

The tune was used for an otherwise unrelated song in a Disney movie in the early '60s, I believe. Something about a "headless horse."

They made us sing "The Green Grass Grew All Around" (different tune) as first or second graders in the US in the mid '50s. Encouraged good concentration, I guess.


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