Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help

Subject: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: folktheatre
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 06:06 PM

Hi there. I'm organising a War of the Roses night in Leeds and wanted some assistance with research. I'm looking for folkloristic background of the two regions listed and wondered if anyone could provide any good starting points. I've a large collection of Yorkshire folk songs collected by Mary and Nigel Huddleston in book form and a book of Yorkshire Dales Folk Stories by a guy who's name I forget... Sorry. And I have the Watersons "A Yorkshire Garland" which is useful. I'm aware that Frank Kidson collected a few Yorkshire songs. Anyone else have any ideas? If so it would be mighty helpful!!!! Thanks! Mike.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 07:20 PM

You could try geting in touch with the Yorkshire Dales Workshops.

http://www.ydw.org.uk

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 07:23 PM

The mudcat's yrlancslad is a storehouse of knowlege of Lancashire songs. Try a PM to him.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 07:25 PM

You could try getting a small piece in The Dalesman The Dalesman asking for the sort of information/stories that you need.

Let us know how you get on.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 09:09 PM

The Mike Harding Collection Folksongs of LancashireISBN9506055 3 0

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 09:24 PM

"And here I prophesy: this brawl today,
Grown to this faction in the Temple garden,
Shall send, between the Red Rose and the White,
A thousand souls to death and deadly night."
— Warwick, Henry VI, Part One

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 09:30 PM

Born around 1385, Dunstable was the most influential English composer of his day. Very little is known conclusively about his life, but through manuscripts and records, it is possible to piece together his possible patrons. It is believed he was in the service of John, Duke of Bedford (Henry V's brother), who was regent in France from 1422 to 1435. After Bedford's death in 1435 he was probably in the service of Joan, Dowager Queen of Henry IV. He received a substantial payment from her in 1436. She died in August 1437, and Dunstable was known to be in the service of Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester (another brother of Henry V) at least from July 1438.
Dunstable probably followed Bedford to France and his music was very well known there. The extensive English possessions in France explain the number of English musicians there at this time, and the widespread dissemination of their music throughout the continent. There is evidence that Dunstable wrote the music for the marriage of Henry V to Catherine of Valois, and also possibly the music for Henry VI's coronation in Paris in 1431.

English Medieval music had a great emphasis on thirds and sixths, and for full bodied textures, making their music harmonious, compared to the more dissonant continental tradition. Dunstable's sonorous melodies were copied by French composers, and the style became known as contenance angloise or English manner. It has been said that Dufay owed his superiority to Dunstable. He incorporated the "English manner" into continental music, creating a style more graceful and expressive. Despite his great influence on continental composers, some musicologists say Dunstable has been accredited personally with the accomplishments of the English school as a whole. Tinctoris described him as "primus inter pares" (first among equals).

There are only about 50 surviving works definitely ascribed to Dunstable. Other works, particularly of the English carol repertory, are labeled as either anonymous or sometimes "de Anglia", but are probably by Dunstable. There is no way to be definite until corroborative evidence is discovered. Stylistic analysis is usually not helpful for works of this period, as it is not easy to distinguish between Dunstable and other English composers of his time. Even on some works that bear Dunstable's inscription, musicologists are not sure. Also, precise dating of his pieces is almost impossible, so it is difficult to describe his development with musical styles and forms. It is clear, however, that he composed in all the principle types and styles of polyphony of his time. About one third of all his surviving works are sections of the Ordinary of the mass, but only a few secular songs are attributed to him.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 09:41 PM

For a wealth of Yorkshire songs PM Ray Padgett. He has been putting together a whole collection of Yorkshire songs for some time now.
He is a regular contributor on Mudcat threads and I know he posted a few messages on the Whitby Folk Week thread back in mid to late August this year.
If I come across any more recent postings from Ray I will let you know.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 10:06 PM

To contact ray Padgett look for postings from r.pagett on the mudcat threads 'Sheffield (UK) Folk Festival 2006' and 'Whitby Folk Week 2006'. Both of which are currently listed on the first page of mudcat threads.
Just find his name, click on the PM after his name and send him a personal message.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 10:16 PM

P.S Also check out the thread 'Lyr Req - Yorkist Wars of the Roses marching songs' for other possible contacts and sources of material

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: folktheatre
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 03:04 AM

Fantastic. Just came on this morning. All this is great stuff and I really really appreciate it. Hopefully some of this thread will become of use to others at some points too. I have a CD of industrial Lancashire folk songs with Mike Harding on it and others.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:13 AM

I have a CD of industrial Lancashire folk songs with Mike Harding on it and others.

I guess this is the CD "Deep Lancashire", a compilation of tracks from the two classic vinyl albums of Lancashire songs "Deep Lancashire" and "Owdham Edge". Unfortunately many of the songs on the albums date from much later than the Wars of the Roses, so I don't know how suitable they would be for the event you're planning - are you trying to find Yorks/Lancs songs from the 15th century?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 08:54 AM

The Yorkshire Garland is using Hudleston Collection as a base as is Fay Hield for her research at Sheffield University

We have as a group have already done much work towards transcribing etc pre WeB Site ~ a well as looking at other 'source singers' such as Arthur Howard and Frank Hinchliffe

Do I know you 'folktheatre?'

Ray

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:26 AM

href="http://www.lancashirefolk.co.uk/">Lancashire Folk site has a message board, you could ask there.
They also have lots of links, one of which leads to about Lancs - history .Scroll down the page and take your pick.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:29 AM

Lancashire folk
try again

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:48 AM

Some more sources;

Collectors Folk - Index of Books
Gardham, East Riding Songster, 1982, Softback, 64, Lincolnshire & Humberside Arts, Mint, £5.00
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk/books/index.html - 57k - Cached - Similar pages

Amazon.com: Folk Songs Collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams by Roy Palmer www.amazon.com/Songs-Collected-Ralph-Vaughan-Williams/dp/046004558X - 72k - Cached - Similar pages
This includes songs from most counties of England.

The CD Triple Echo by Coope Boyes and Simpson includes a number of songs collected in Yorkshire.

The Toilers' Gift will be a celebration of the folk songs of Yorkshire. Written by Georgina Boyes and featuring Jim and Georgina Boyes, Barry Coope, Fi Fraser, Janet Russell and the 75 voices of the Roses and Thorns Choir. Appearing on;
Saturday 11 November 2006 at Dent Memorial Hall
Saturday 18 November 2006 at Mart Theatre, Skipton Auction Mart

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: 8_Pints
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:33 AM

I will PM you with Sid Calderbank's contact details.

He is a Lancashire Dialect Ballad singer of some repute.

Good luck.

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: folktheatre
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 11:02 AM

Great. I think I didn't explain myself too well. The War of the Roses is just a turn of phrase we're using. I'm not looking solely for songs from that era. I just have a friend who know's many Lancashire songs and I know some Yorkshire ones so we thought we'd expand the idea! A sort of folk "it's a knockout!". I'm kidding.... But seriously thanks everyone. I'm really excited about all the information I've accumulated. I don't know where to start! Roy Palmer's my idol!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 11:31 AM

The War of the Roses is just a turn of phrase we're using

Fair enough - some folk would say the War is still going strong today ;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: 8_Pints
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 02:22 PM

At the Otley Festival last week Sid was introduced as coming from "t'other side of the hill" (i.e. The Pennines), to which Sid retorted "what do you mean, this is the other side of the hill"!

He also featured prominently with "Scowie" and Mark Dowding in the Saddleworth Festival "War of the Roses" event.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:24 PM

So did I 8 pints along with Hissy Fit at Saddleworth and Copper Kettle, Mark Dowding, Chris Pollington, Stan Acck, et al, John Greaves

Yorkshire won the War of the Roses 2006 [Scowie was miffed!]

Gardhams East Riding Songster compiled by Steve Gardham who is Chair of The Yorkshire Garland with me and Mike Parsey

I enlisted Sid Calderbank's help re Ammon Wrigley who wrote Freisland Ale as a poem (Saddleworth/Greenfield) which is disputed teritory, traditionally in Yorkshire now in Oldham/Greater Manchester

Twould be th'other side o'th'hill in Lancs accent

Ray

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 03:38 PM

You'll find plenty of Lancashire tunes in Jamie Knowles' books "The Northern Lass" and "Northern Frisk". There are some excellent Lancashire tunes on the recently re-issued "Beggar Boy of the North" "Greg Stephens and Crookfinger Jack), harbourtown Records HARCD051. There are countless millions of wonderful Lancashire songs, some beautiful, some funny. Whether they have any music in Yorkshire, I neither know nor care. Unlikely, I would have thought. Grim sort of place, or so I've heard.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: folktheatre
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:49 PM

Ha ha! Hope I don't start anything! I'm just a middleman and hope to keep the common ground (being Welsh an' all). Though I'm in a play where I have to speak about t'others and me sen laak thees oll daay.

Thanks Greg.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:25 PM

We wuz robbed!!!

Seriously though Sid and I have been doing a bit of a revival of the Lancashire song tradition recently. Sid released a CD containing 14 songs relating to "Jone o' Grinfilt" - all with the same tune - that he researched in various libraries, there are two CDs called "A Lancashire Garland" and "The Lancashire Cotton Famine" about Lancashire dialect writers through the past 300 years or so, and the devastating effect of the American Civil war on Lancashire and the cotton industry.
I released a CD of the songs of Harry Boardman and also "Manchester Ballads" in conjunction with Chris Harvey as well as other Lancashire songs on my other CDs. Chris has been instrumental in getting the songs of Ted Edwards from Leigh onto CD and I put a CD together of Ted doing a live gig in 1984 that I recorded and 20 years later sent a copy to Ted who asked for it to be released.

There's plenty to chose from. www.markdowding.co.uk - follow the music link for more details.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: folktheatre
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:03 AM

Thanks Mark!

Is there still a Yorkshire Musical Museum in Scarborough?

Mike.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources help
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 08:17 PM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Yorkshire/Lancashire folk resources
From: folktheatre
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:56 AM

Good answer!