Ewan MacColl's accent

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:57 AM

"we have been living in a small world. we are not living like a 17th century shepherd who never saw the next village down the road from him - never heard a radio with songs from other cultures."

So what..... we should all aspire to sound the same? Yes, the small world we live in gives us great opportunity to enjoy distinctly different musics from other cultures than our own. But that's no reason to homogenize everything. Cajun music, to quote just one example, survived initially because of cultural isolation but now flourishes because folks there, whilst well aware of what is going on in the rest of the world, have decided they want to keep playing their own stuff regardless. Those of us who play English music have come to a similar conclusion. Doesn't mean we can't develop it or borrow ideas from elsewhere. Does mean we want it to sound distinctive.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 03:02 AM

absolutely - the other guys wrong. use whatever voice you want to sing. enjoy it. you're a long time dead.

the kind of people who give you a hard time for the accent you adopt when singing - probably their lips move when they are reading and they have difficulty with long words. I bet they go round congratulating themselves that Santa Claus couldn't get down THEIR chimney.

Am I allowed to be bitter? Yes its SO selective. these are the kind of people who have hounded Jack Hudson out of a living calling him a 'pseudo yank'. Drove the late Gerry Lockran away from our shores and our folk clubs.

Yet they have no trouble with the accents of Tim Hart, Martin Carthy or the gurning tones of Mike Waterson. Well they're traditional, ain't they?

Its the same kind of partisanship and unsophistication that has poor Salman Rushdie hiding in the cellar - the inability to distinguish between the voice of of a narrator of a work of art, and the artist.

And even given the parlous state of education in these islands, its a bloody disgrace.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 12:46 AM

Agreed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 12:13 AM

I think at this point both discussions are going around in circles that occasionally overlap. Seems to me that pretty much everything that's likely to be said has been said, and no new conclusions have been reached and no one's changed their opinion ... we're getting close to the dead horse phase ...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 11:22 PM

GUEST,memyself 08 Oct 06 - 06:52 PM

"And really there are two different discussions going on here; one concerning Ewan McColl, about whom some people have exceedingly strong feelings, and another on the use of accents generally"

GUEST,lox 06 Oct 06 - 06:23 AM

"I think to explore whether he was right or wrong to do it it is essential to explore whether it can justifiably and defensibly be done at all.

Seems to me that that is the consistent theme of this thread."

GUEST,erictheorange 06 Oct 06 - 06:32 AM

"as the original poster I think the current line of discussion is completely in keeping with the issues arising from my original question, I do not feel hijacked (Stockholm Syndrome?)"
_________________________

Round in circles? is this one discussion or two? It's certainly a tricky stumbling block ...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 07:22 PM

On whether or not it's okay for anyone to use accents or dialects they were not born to when performing seems to be one bone of contention. The other is, is it okay for Ewan MacColl to do it? Well, it would seem to me that if it's okay for anyone to do it, it's certainly okay for MacColl. I would say that it's perfectly okay, as long as one is not deceiving one's audience as to what one is really doing. So, how does MacColl stack up by that criterion?

As to anyone doing it—on individual songs—I think I've made myself abundantly clear about my thoughts on the matter.

"It's a performance." Exactly so, weelittledrummer. I couldn't agree more. A good performance requires a bit of play-acting, and where some folkies may get bent out of shape when someone assumes an accent or attitude geared to enhance that performance ("but that's not authentic!"), it is part of the art of performing.

I put great store by authenticity, and take care not to overdo any of these little theatrical "enhancements." But I remember the words of a folk singer from whom I learned a great deal. I can't remember his exact words, but paraphrasing, he said, "On the one hand, by striving to be 'authentic,' one runs the danger of becoming nothing more than a musical stamp-collector, regurgitating only what can be heard more authentically on a field recording. On the other, by making indiscriminant and poorly thought out changes or additions to the song, you run the danger of losing the very quality that attracted you to the song in the first place. But it is possible to judiciously exercise one's creativity and present the authentic spirit of the song much more effectively than by merely parroting field recordings."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 06:52 PM

And really there are two different discussions going on here; one concerning Ewan McColl, about whom some people have exceedingly strong feelings, and another on the use of accents generally, again about which some people have strong feelings. Some of us are thinking primarily of McColl; some of the accent business without reference to McColl. Lots of room for misunderstanding, wilful or otherwise!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 06:41 PM

yeh you're right sorrry!

I just think theres a degree of wilful misunderstanding going on here, of a bloke who was a playwright and whose roots were pretty obviously in the theatre.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

There you go, folks - we've been told.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 06:09 PM

Can I just quote from a recent review of one of my albums:-
"I must admit to feeling a twinge of trepidation on first hearing the opening track, a dialogue between the Guardian of the Pearly Gates and the notorious bank robber, John Dillinger.............. Lyrically quite hilarious, but the cause of concern was the apparent affected American accent, which was replaced by a Cockney one on the following track....."

Ewan wasn't trying to pass himself off as something he wasn't. No more am I. Its a performance....it requires suspension of belief. King Lear isn't really on the heath ...he's in a theatre. Marlon Brando isn't really.... a mafia Godfather. Johnny cash didn't really shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

Its not that I'm not following this debate, I just think its damn silly. I suppose there are some plonkers who have elected themselves as the 'authentic' voice of Derbyshire, Yorkshire, the North East, Ireland, Lancashire,etc.

All I can say is that they are mistaken and self deluding. And if you go along with their delusions, god help you. because for the last fifty years - probably even before then - we have been living in a small world. we are not living like a 17th century shepherd who never saw the next village down the road from him - never heard a radio with songs from other cultures. And if your view of art doesn't encompass some of this - it must be piss poor stuff.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 01:36 PM

BB: Do we have one natural voice? Nic Jones' voice doesn't sound natural to me? He sounds too much like Carthy. And, surely, Carthy sings in a voice that he has invented!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 12:52 PM

I'd be embarrassed to sing a song in an assumed dialect or accent. That's not to say it's wrong for some people, just that personally I'd feel a fraud doing it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM

Maybe Captain birdseye's point concerning inevitability cuts both ways:

1. it is inevitable that a certain amount of mimickry will be present, when a song whose lyrics depend on the dialect it is written in is performed.

2. It is also inevitable that the character and natural cultural bias of the performer will determine the overall colour and presentation of it.

There will never be a truly personalised rendition, nor a truly authentic rendition.

The debate isn't black and white, but once again a multitude of shades of grey.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 10:21 AM

I may be wrong here, but I have yet to hear a traditional (source!)singer sing in any other than their own natural style, never affecting a different accent from their own. And certainly those revival singers that I admire, like Roy Harris, Pete Coe, Nic Jones - yes, and Brian - and many others who are noted singers of traditional, and in particular, ballad material, do likewise. There must be a reason for this.

Traditional ballads and songs have always travelled, and been adapted by singers from other areas to suit their own ways of singing, whether it be between the countries of the British Isles or the New World, and the same applies - look at Fellside's two Song Links projects. I'm sure that no-one would say that the songs are any less good for having travelled and being taken up in their own way by those singers.

It seems to me that it's all part of making the song your own, and yes, of course it requires a lot of work to make it so, but that is all part of learning a song anyway, or should be!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:23 AM

Yes, Lox, read Captain Birdseye's last post.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM

then again, maybe he did :-)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:59 AM

GUEST

You are right that this is what it comes down to at the end of the day.

Do you think it's any good or not.

There is no clear way of proving this point one way or the other, as it is mainly a subjective matter.

I personally think MacColl does a plausible job of songs such as "cam' ye o'er frae france", "the maid gaed tae the mill" and "the highland muster roll".

I think he sounds a hell of a lot more convincing than Mel Gibson did as William Wallace, yet for all his inadequacy, Braveheart had a fair few scots blubbering into their popcorn with nationalist pride and emotion.

I would also, however, like to add that Captain Birdseye didn't say anything about translation in the post you were responding to (4.54), so on that score I'm not sure that you are quite the authority on what "we're discussing" that you might think you are.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:28 AM

I don't think with MacColl it's a question of translation, we're discussing his put on Scottish accent which was not very good.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:54 AM

sometimes its impossible not to sing with an accent to enable the rhyme.for example hame and came
a cockney rhyming slang song like TOTTIE ,also would nae work ,if you translated it into scottish dialect, so to some extent its unavoidable.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:09 AM

There's no problem. It's just that as an actor, MacColl wasn't very good at a Scottish accent.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 09:36 PM

Guest @ 05:29 PM, that's bollocks! As a Scot who grew up in Scotland in a mixed household of Scots & Geordie influences the accents are absorbed by osmosis! I myself don't have the accent of my home town, having travelled widely and been influenced by many others. I have lived in several different locations in the UK and have sung in several different dailects. Ewan was raised in a Scots household and a Mancunian environment, what's the problem?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:29 PM

The point, I think, is that MacColl wasn't very good at his Scottish accent. To most Scots he sounded very music hall.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM

I think some folks are taking this accent/dialect thing ("Do it!"—"Don't do it!") a bit too far.

First of all, when I say that I adopt, for example, a Scottish dialect when singing something like The Bonnie Earl of Moray, I'm not talking about stuffing my mouth with bannocks and crowdie before I sing and becoming generally incomprehensible. I'm talking about singing the line "Ye hielands and ye lowland, oh, where hae ye been?" that way, not "translating it into "English" by changing the words to "You highlands and you lowlands, oh where have you bean?" With that kind of song, switching to an "English translation" takes the song out of context, takes the starch out of the song, and is just plain silly.

I sing the words as indicated, and I've noticed (along with records of other Scottish singers, I have a lot of Jean Redpath records and I've heard her in person several times, including at a songfest when she visited Seattle a couple of decades ago) the way that Scots pronounce certain consonants, e.g., they tend to speak "Rs" with a little flip of the tongue and more forward in the mouth than English or Americans do (unlike the Parisian French, who tuck "Rs" into the back of the throat). Okay, so I do that, too. For the duration of the song. I am not translating it into another language. I really don't sing all that many songs in dialect, but with those I do, I'm sure my audiences fully understand what's going on, even though some of the words may sound a little different from what they hear every day. I'm just going with the flow of the song, doing what feels natural.

My point in bringing up opera being musically best when sung in its original language is to illustrate the tight relationship between words and music. Most opera buffs bone up on the plot before going to a performance, particularly if it's an opera they're not familiar with. Regular opera-goers are not as dependent on hearing and understanding the specific words. They already know what the plot is before the lights go down and the curtain goes up. At this point, the music and the individual performances are more important to them than following the plot word by word.

This is not the case with ballads. The music is important, yes. But the main thing is the story. So it's paramount that the audience be able to hear and understand the words. In a three hour opera, there is only one story (and possibly a sub-plot or two) to keep in mind. The audience at a folk concert may hear a dozen or more different ballads—stories—along with other songs over the course of the concert, many of which may be entirely knew to lots of people in the audience.

With ballads, the music acts as a vehicle for the story. In opera, the story acts as a vehicle for the music.

And no, GUEST,memyself, I don't really think that the folks Vance Randolph collected songs from in the Ozarks need to know much of anything about opera.

Hey, it ain't rocket science, folks.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Betsy
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 08:44 AM

I'm English and I love singing English Irish & Scottish songs.
I also like American songs - Tom Paxton type of thing.
I have sang Scottish songs in Scotland which is ridiculous , because I don't have a Scottish accent. I can do one, but can't maintain it for the entire length of a song , so I explained all this to my Scottish audfience , and said I just hope I you are happy that an Englishman is singing a Scottish song and that I do it justice.
The generous Scots as usual - held the opinion that so long as the song keeps as much shape as the Scots intended - then that was fine by them.
The phraseology in an English, Scottish or Irish or Paxton song almost demands that you take onbord some of the language root of the song ( I'm sure I must do it ) - how much is the difficult part, but you are setting a scene with the song , so I think it's appreciated if you give it some of the same root flavour - which is the difficult part for Ewan McColl - being the songwriter. Anyway,a bit late to be knocking him - NOW - surely.
Besides some people who have this affectation / over-doing the accent,do so by copying a contemporary, for example most people (seem to me ) aspire to deliver Dirty Old Town a la the greatLuke Kelly in an Irish affected accent , when the song is written about a place in England , by a Scotsman from England .
I'm stopping before I get in too deep, I'm getting dizzy.

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:32 AM

as the original poster I think the current line of discussion is completely in keeping with the issues arising from my original question, I do not feel hijacked (Stockholm Syndrome?)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:23 AM

I don't see this as a hijack, more an application of lateral thinking to the issue of MacColl's use of different accents in different contexts.

I think to explore whether he was right or wrong to do it it is essential to explore whether it can justifiably and defensibly be done at all.

Seems to me that that is the consistent theme of this thread.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:07 AM

Lox: Glad we're pals after all. Interesting discussion of R&J / West Side / Chinatown. I'm certainly with you in that my ultimate criterion for judging folk music (or anything else come to that) would be: "Is it any good or not?" That trumps high-flown principles and theories every time.

Don Firth: "I have heard operas translated into English from their original language, and it always loses something. It simply sings better in the original language. I don't see that folk songs and ballads are any different in that respect."

Well, Don, I love folk ballads and I can't stand opera. One of several reasons for this is that I like stories; ballads tell a story (as Barbara said), whereas at an opera you have to look it up in the programme. Clearly it's possible to appreciate vocal music without necessarily understanding it, otherwise I wouldn't enjoy Cajun music or get gigs in European countries where English isn't spoken widely. But in the case of a ballad the story comes first and the music is a mere servant.

Scrump: "Yes, there is a case for "translation" but what you end up with is not the same song at all."

So is Frank Proffit's "Love Henry" not at all the same song as "Young Hunting"? The text is substantially different but it's still recognisably that ballad. You can have more than one great version of the same song - that's what folk music is all about, isn't it? Besides, my most radical "translations" have been performed on old ballads that are scarcely ever sung, precisely because the texts aren't understandable. I'm not about to turn out a BBC English version of "For A' That", if that's what's worrying you.

Apologies to the MacColl -philes and -phobes for hijacking their slanging match. We should have started a new thread really but never mind.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:33 AM

Some interesting views and food for thought in this sub-thread (which now has nowt much to do with MacColl himself).

If I like a song well enough to want to sing it myself, I will do my best to research its background, and if necessary learn to speak (as well as I can) the appropriate accent and dialect. As I said above, this is no more difficult than learning to speak a foreign language, which many people do and nobody questions it (although I recognise that not everyone finds learning languages easy). I will do this ideally by spending time in the area, but more likely I will talk to people I know who are from that area, listen to speech recordings or recordings of singers from the area, etc., and above all practice speaking/singing to get as near to the 'correct' pronunciation as possible. In other words, I work at getting it right, as much as I can.

If I then sing the song and don't get it 100% right, and someone from the area in question gets offended, I would regard that as their problem not mine. I've found that most people appreciate the effort I have made to 'speak their language', just as I find when travelling abroad that saying things like "hello", "please" and "thank you" in the local language (even when you don't know many other words in it) goes a long way towards getting along with the locals.

As for dialect words, I always explain them in the introduction (unless of course I'm in the area where the dialect is spoken), as well as other things like place/street/people names that might have a bearing on understanding the song.

I don't think that not actually coming from the area should be any barrier to singing a song from that area, providing you make the effort to get it right. As I said, most people appreciate this and if you get the odd person who somehow feels insulted and thinks I'm taking the mick out of their accent, then that's their problem. Again you can probably pre-empt this by saying something in the introduction to the effect that "I don't come from the area as you can probably tell, but I'll do my best... blah blah blah... as I don't think it would sound right any other way".

Yes, there is a case for "translation" but what you end up with is not the same song at all. And as others have said, if you do that then you might be accused of arrogance - you probably can't please everybody, but since when was that a reason not to do something?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Joe_F
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:30 PM

For me, the dictionary work is part of the fun.

When I sing "The Reel of Stumpie" in company that has not heard it, I prefix it with a spoken prose translation and little lectures about the caudle & that charming Presbyterian custom, the cutty stool. When I sing "The Second Front Song", I mention what I have learned from reading about the atmosphere of a time that is now passing from living memory, and the political overtones of the phrase "second front". People put up with it. After all, I haven't taken their money.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:22 PM

LOL - a lot

why am I throwing away this god given opportunity to feign apoplectic fury and disgust at your affrontery.

As I say to my daughter, "It's just as well that I like cheeky monkeys!"

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:35 PM

Ewan McColl's constant and sycophantic imitation of Bob Dylan's nasal twang and his mimicking of every obvious Dylan nuance and characteristic is what really puts me off! Why couldn't he just admit he worshipped the ground Dylan walked on and sing in his own real voice instead for a change?


(chuckle...)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:28 PM

wld, if you'd been reading the thread before your posted, instead of just making assumptions about the subject line and the number of posts, you might have noticed that the discussion has come a long and thoughtful way.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:18 PM

I'm fed up with all this crazy stuff.

he was a human being, and a pretty bloody good one

leave him alone.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:41 PM

Couldn't you have said that in a more authentic way?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:04 PM

I would also quickly like to differentiate between the Charm inherent in a poem or song and the "charm" of a cute cuddly little dialect (sarcasm intended).

If I say that a song or poem might lose it's charm due to its dialect being watered down or otherwise undermined, then I am not saying that the accent or dialect was the charming thing about it, but that as an ingredient it was essential to the poems charm.

If, upon meeting someone with a hebridean accent I comment "what a charming little accent" in the manner of Captain Haddocks arch nightmare Dame Biance Castifiore, then it would rightly (in my opinion) be viewed as a patronising and condescending attitude for me to have.

If however, someone informed me that a poem or song I had written had charmed them, I would feel greatly complimented.

As we are discussing the relative merits of songs and performance, and not the 'quaint' idiosyncrasies that make these jolly little foreign types so entertaining, it is perhaps a little off the mark to assume the worst without first acknowledging the depth of the discussion up till this point.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:36 PM

I think (and I believe that Brian might already suspect this) that he and I are in fact much closer together in our views than our chosen manner of expression would indicate.

In fact, reading through our discussion, I find a different perspective emerging that renders our disagreement obsolete and unsustainable.

I am starting to believe now that if we are to disagree, it must be along the lines simply of who is a good performer and who isn't.

The recurring worry is that if someone doesn't do their preferred option well, then it won't sound good or convincing to an audience.

Likewise though, if they do a good Job then it will presumably be both.

Folk music will of course evolve. Romeo and juliet became west side story, and thank god it did because it was a masterpiece in it's own right.

However, seeing shakespeares version as it would have been performed in his day, with the cultural context explained beforehand and even perhaps a little glossary of terms relevant to his era that are hard to relate to this day and age, when it is done well, is such a rewarding experience that to let it die out because we have west side story would be a great loss to us and a gaping hole in the riches of our cultural closet.

In the same vein, there was a bloody awful modernisation of the same story in the 80's called chinatown about gangs in an american city, (though which city I have forgotten). It would serve to support the argument that shakespeare should be left well alone.

Equally, many an amateur dramatics society has bored the hell out of their audience by fumbling through lines that clearly have no real meaning to them in a way that has as much real impact on it's audience as a speech in swahili would at a Conservative party conference.

"I don't like that accent" is balanced by "I don't like that interpretation"

"That singer simply doesn't have the ear to reproduce that dialect" is balanced by "That singer simply doesn't have the cultural understanding to translate that song as they have."

Both artforms, because they are clearly different, are equally valid. Both might need a little explanation beforehand for different reasons (unless updating also means recontextualising according to 21st century norms and metaphors etc, which might be an extremely tricky procedure).

One attempts to preserve the story so that its meaning isn't lost, the other to preserve the feel of the song as it might have been heard however many hundreds of years ago.

I would precurse a rendition of the original form with a synopsis of the story, and little reference to certain key words or phrases that might otherwise seem unfamiliar, before entertaining my audience.

They would hopefully go home having been entertained by the music, the unfamiliar sound, the story and that feeling of being a bit special because they knew something they didn't know before about the dialect of the song which not many other people are likely to know. They would probably forget what they had learned within a few hours, but it would be in their minds just long enough to make the performance just that little bit more magical.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:34 PM

Guess somebody forgot to tell those singers in the Ozarks how it's done in opera; most unfortunate.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:51 PM

If I may insert another angle to this discussion:   

There is a reason that Italian opera is almost always sung in Italian and French opera is almost always sung in French and German opera is almost always sung in German, even when the singers are not Italian or French or German. The text was written in that language and the music for it was composed around the characteristic rhythms and inflections of that language. I have heard operas translated into English from their original language, and it always loses something. It simply sings better in the original language. I don't see that folk songs and ballads are any different in that respect.

[Note:   FYI, modern opera houses have a feature called "supra-titles;"   there is a long, narrow, flat panel above above the stage where they project an English translation of what is being sung—very much like the subtitles at a foreign movie—so you know what all the singing is about.]

No one, including Italians, object or are offended when Americans like Jerry Hadley (tenor) or Marilyn Horne (mezzo-soprano) sing Verdi or Puccini in Italian, or Australian soprano Joan Sutherland sings Donizetti. Can you imagine someone trying to sing a Gilbert and Sullivan comic opera in Italian? And how much of the humor in the "patter songs" would be lost (much of it depends on goofy rhymes) because of the change of language?

The same idea pertains. There may be huge stylistic differences between opera and folk music, but in any form of song, the way words and melody fit and flow together is important and has a lot to do with the song as a whole. Switching languages or altering dialects, even changing a word or two (unless it is done very thoughtfully and carefully) can be like trying to stuff a size eight foot into a size six shoe or vice versa.   

Jerry Hadley and Marilyn Horne and Joan Sutherland learned how to pronounce the languages they sing in as best they can, and they just haul off and sing. But they don't change their names to something Italian-sounding and try to convince people that they are Italian.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: BB
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:39 PM

GUEST, lox "But it would annoy me intensely if he/she had the arrogance to extract all of it's flavour and charm and "translate" it into a "relevant modern form"."

I'm with Brian and Mary here, particularly with the old ballads. The whole point is that they are stories. Stories need to be communicated. The best way to communicate is in your own voice, not someone else's. I don't want people in the audience thinking, 'Oh, that accent isn't very good', or 'That accent/word/whatever sounds strange'; I want them to be listening to the story.

That sentence of Lox's above got to me too - *if* all the song's flavour and charm was extracted, it probably *would* be arrogant. If I couldn't do the song without extracting all the flavour and charm, I wouldn't do it - at least, I don't believe I would. I'm not sure what he/she means by "relevant modern form". I try not to change the form, but I hope it would be understandable to whoever is listening. As to relevance, except that human emotions/morals are always relevant, I'm not sure a song/story has to be so. It doesn't stop it being enjoyable.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,AFD
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:50 AM

I personally have a real dislike for people putting on 'fake' accents.
Think of a song like 'Sir Patrick Spens' – originally Scots, but still sounds great when sung by Carthy or someone with 'another' accent.
I also believe that people should try and find songs local to them, but I think people putting on accents really turns people off. I can't think of much worse than a Brit putting on an American deep-south accent (or vice versa).

Personally, I'm of the school that believes folk songs should evolve.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:40 AM

>>Just how bad was MacColl's accent anyway ? Partly it
>>depends on who's listening, but I mean really. As bad
>>as Mick Jagger's African American ?
>>
>>Does anybody criticize Mick (for that, I mean) ?

I don't mean to pick on Lighter, but I've noticed that generally on this forum there seems to be a tendency that whenever somebody gets a little defensive on any subject, they start to bring in comparisons with pop/rock performers and how they are viewed by the masses. Why is this?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:38 AM

I'm wary of "preserving the charm" - one man's "preserving the charm" is another man's "being patronizing or condescending" ... Perhaps "charm" just isn't the best term for what it meant.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:22 AM

Sing however you want. That's why it's "folk music."

Paying listeners who don't like your approach will vote with their feet. But that's show biz.

Just how bad was MacColl's accent anyway ? Partly it depends on who's listening, but I mean really. As bad as Mick Jagger's African American ?

Does anybody criticize Mick (for that, I mean) ?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:56 AM

Just to put in my two-penn'orth here:
I agree with Brian. Part of the reason for singing old ballads is to tell the wonderful stories captured therein. If old Scots ( or English ) dialect words are used, many members of the audience may not quite get the gist of the song, so making the reason for singing rather pointless. ( I know, I may be accused of patronising audiences, but I often sing at Village Halls with totally non-folky audiences.)
I think it is essential to make sure that the words are understandable, and therefore I , like Brian, translate them into a more modern English idiom.
I loved Ewan's versions of Scots ballads, as they contained the original poetry and rhythm, but they took a lot of dictionary work before I understood the whole story.
Mary

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:33 AM

OK, Lox, let's agree to friendly debate - my "anything else would sound ridiculous" was perhaps not the most diplomatic or tolerant phrase either.

Lox: "The quotes around "relevant modern form" are there to highlight it as an expression representative of a particular perspective, though not necessarily your own, and not to put words in your mouth."

The reason I seized on that was precisely because that perspective is one I've fought against myself in the past. Attempts to make traditional songs jump through a hoop marked "relevance" (a highly subjective notion anyway) always make my own hackles rise.

I'm sure the poem you quote would sound better in Jamaican patois. I don't think I'd be the best person to perform it like that, but if you wanted to I wouldn't make a fuss. However, in the specific case of Child Ballads, what we're dealing with is not only regional dialect (though not always) but archaic language as well. I have a ballad on my desk right now that's in archaic *English* and which I'm trying to arrange in a way that makes sense. Some would maintain that, say, Chaucer sounds best in the language he wrote in, but my job here is to make the ballad understandable to an audience - one which is expecting musical entertainment - in such a way that a long and complex story grips them. A line like "When bale is att hyest, boote is at next" just has to go.

Presented with lines in heavy Scots dialect (I go for English versions where possible but some of the best ballads weren't collected here) I would likewise want to make them more understandable, but in undertaking my revision I'd be doing my level best to retain the "flavour and charm" of the original. A member of the Scots diaspora might consider the dialect to be a part of the flavour and charm, but that is not my perspective. Besides, if you look at what happened to the ballads as they moved around in oral tradition, between Scotland, England and Ireland, or over to the Appalachians, resetting the words in the local vernacular happened all the time. I can think of ballads collected in Scotland and later in North Carolina, in which much the same story is told, but scarcely a single line of the older text has survived.

Scots people are indeed open and friendly, and are generally better clued-up on their musical traditions than we are South of the border. They do, however, have a powerful sense of nationality, and for a visiting Englishman to adopt a phoney Scots accent, even in the cause of poetic authenticity, would be to invite ridicule or possibly worse. Believe me.

I have sung the Welsh song in Wales, but I can just about get away with that because I have the excuse of my family background. Even so, I have had a little friendly advice about my pronunciation....

During the 1980s I was resident at a club in Manchester run by the late and great Harry Boardman (at one time an acolyte of Ewan MacColl, to claw my way back to the original topic). Harry had done the full "sing from your own tradition" thing, and unearthed a large repertoire of old Lancastrian material, some of it in thick dialect. He was himself from Lancashire and, though not naturally a dialect speaker, could use it convincingly in performance. Harry also enjoyed Irish songs, and would on occasion sing one in a cod Irish accent. It might be argued that for him to adopt the Irish accent was no more phoney than singing in a dialect that had largely died out, but to me the former sounded bogus (and I would tell him so). Harry's more usual dictum was "sing in your own voice", and that's what's always made the most sense to me.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:22 AM

Here is a Jamaican poem,

Sun a shine
and rain a fall
the devil an' 'im wife
cyan 'gree at all
Dem fightin' overone fish head
The devil call 'im wife bonehead
she hiss her teeth call 'im cockeye
lazy worthless and workshy
While dem bust cyalling name
de puss walk in say is a shame
to see a good fish go to wase
lef wit a big grin pon him face

What do I do if I want to relay that to any jamaicans I might know or to a jamaican audience.

Let's translate


Sun shines and rain falls
the devil and his wife can't agree at all
they are fighting over a fish head
the devil calls his wife bone head
she hisses her teeth and calls him cockeye          (cockeye? further
lazy worthless and workshy                              translation?)
While they're busy calling each other names
the cat walked in saying it's a shame
to see a good fish go to waste
then left with a big grin upon his face.

I don't know about you, but tome the accent and rhythm of it are essential parts of that poem. The story is kind of cute, but lacks any real character out of it's original context.

My jamaican accent isn't that good, but maybe it doesn't have to be. Maybe it's not meant to be translated. Maybe the author didn't want it to be sanitized. Maybe they wanted the "jamaicanness" of it to ring out even when read by non jamaicans, perhaps to give the reader a feeeling of what being jamaican can feel like.

And whether they wanted to or not, perhaps the poem does that anyway, which in turn is an essential part of it's charm.

Could the same not be said of child ballads (assuming I have used that term correctly.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:38 AM

Sorry About the undiplomatic approach Brian, no desire to offend - the old passion runs free in my blood and I am not ashamed of it.

Any accidental denigration along the way is more to do with the enjoyment of honing a well turned phrase than it is to do with any form of malice that might be perceived.

I saw "Anything else would sound ridiculous" floating in front of me and I bit.

The quotes around "relevant modern form" are there to highlight it as an expression representative of a particular perspective, though not necessarily your own, and not to put words in your mouth.

And I'll bet that if you sang your welsh song in wales it would go down a storm.

I also wonder where exactly in Glasgow or edinburgh this intolerant hostile audience is. Are we referring to a particular pub? are are we allowing ourselves to colour our judgement with preconceptions and generalizations of scottish people.

I've known a few scots, some from glasgow and none of them have ever given me a glesga kiss (head butt) and I have never been mugged in the toilets of an edinburgh pub.

The kind of people who would beat you up for singing a song are the same kind that would do the same if you were american full stop, or for that matter from another part of scotland where there was a different football team.

My impression of the scots that I have met is that they have been warm open friendly people who aren't generally so far up their arse that they would judge you poorly for singing a folk song of theirs in a non authentic way.

And if that really is what folk clubs up there are like, then I'm glad I've not been to one.

Am I not being realistiic?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:52 AM

"It might be that that self same new yorker has scottish lineage and so he sings it with affection and not just historical curiosity, having personal reasons to be interested in the first place."

I have no wish to offend New Yorkers with Scottish antecedents. I speak as an Englishman of Welsh extraction who plays regular gigs in Scotland, and I know how well a fake Scots accent would go down in those circumstances. I have, however, been known to sing one song in Welsh, (I learned it in Welsh from my Mum and Dad), so maybe that makes me a fake too.

"But it would annoy me intensely if he/she had the arrogance to extract all of it's flavour and charm and "translate" it into a "relevant modern form"."

Dear me, this forum does lend itself to undiplomatic language, doesn't it? Arrogant and intensely annoying I may be, but whether altering a few specific dialect words of a Child ballad in order to make it sit comfortably in my own mouth - whilst also making what is, after all, a STORY more intelligible to my audience is to "extract all its flavour and charm" is something I would challenge. It's the argument about the King James Bible again: which is more important, the content or the original language? I'd have thought my comment about "Willie's Lady" might have suggested that I realise it isn't a simple issue.

And nowhere did I say anything about a "relevant modern form", so why is that line in quotes?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:33 AM

One more thing,

"Try doing that in a folk club in Glasgow or Edinburgh!"

I can't speak for the scots, but I have seen examples of what I have described in my last post, in sessions in Ireland, where Americans who are interested in their roots and culture have stood up to sing songs which have been lyrically very Irish by nature (if not in language).

I have yet to see such a performance be treated with anything other than respect and appreciation. If a "translated version were to performed I believe it would be tolerated but treated with a bit more scepticism, as I think prejudice sees Americans as believing themselves to be better, and it might be perceived that the "translation" was considered by the american to be an improvement on the original, which in turn would be seen as just another example of American arrogance.

I say give credit to someone who makes the effort to broaden their range and repertoire and challenge their limits.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl's accent
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:25 AM

I disagree wholeheartedly.

I cite "the maid gaed tae the mill" as an example.

It is arguable that a new yorker trying to wrap their tongue around those lyrics wouldn't sound as good as the original.

It would be redundant to point out that it wouldn't be convincing.

but it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be enjoyable, or that the performer was any less credible or honest etc for doing it.

It might be that that self same new yorker has scottish lineage and so he sings it with affection and not just historical curiosity, having personal reasons to be interested in the first place.


But it would annoy me intensely if he/she had the arrogance to extract all of it's flavour and charm and "translate" it into a "relevant modern form".

Am I meant to believe that by doing so he/she would be making it or himself any more authentic?

I find that point of view considerably less convincing!

Furthermore, if that New yorker were to state that he wasn't really into performing traditional songs from countries other than scoltland, as that is where his roots are, that would be a perfectly valid and defensible reason.