Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:24 AM

Stewie: If accurate -- and Oliver's ear has always been one of the sharpest -- that would seem to be Daniels' wry comment on the older line's "so soon." Thanks for the reference. Bob

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: Stewie
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM

Bob, in his transcripton of the Daniels recording, at page 106 of his 'Songsters & Saints: Vocal Traditions on Race Records' Cambridge University Press 1984, Paul Oliver gives 'This morning, that's too soon for me' for the line in question.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:32 PM

No way of determining when the line "This mornin', this evenin', so soon" was coined, but it has been added to a variety of rhymes, unrelated except that they state some action or state of being that goes with what has to be done as a result- and done 'This mornin', this evenin' so soon.
It may or may not have been belonged to a stanza at first, but it was easily combined.

How many biscuits can you eat
Went up town wid my hat in my han'
O Brer Rabbit you look mighty good this mornin'
I went up Zion Hill this morning
There's a man hangin' round (and the lezzie verses)
Ole mule stopped dead this mornin'

And dozens more

It has the utility of "When de good Lawd set you free."

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM

Going by meaning, my guess is that "too good for me" is probably right. Richie, thanks for some pretty acute listening!   Julius just swallows those words.   Bob

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 11:33 PM

Should be JAFL 1986 for the Norm Cohen article.

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:57 PM

Bob,

Great fingerstyle version.

Julius may be singing:

Cho: This mornin', that's sure good for me.

or

Cho: This mornin', that's too good for me.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:17 PM

Norm Cohen puts Daniel's song, "Can't Put the Bridle on That Mule This Morning," as structurally kin to "How Many Biscuits Can You Eat.."
However, it is reminiscent of "Mule-Song" in H. W. Odum, Folk-Song and Folk-Poetry ..., JAFL vol. 24, no. 93, 1911, p. 10, which I believe was posted in thread 5793: Mule Song
1st and 3rd verses:

I went up Zion Hill this mornin' on a wagon,
I went on a wagon up Zion's Hill this mornin',
The durn ole mule stop right still this mornin', this mornin', so soon.

Yes, I hollow at the mule, an' the mule would not gee, this mornin',
Yes, I hollow at the mule and the mule would not gee,
An' I hit him across the head with the single-tree, so soon.

Norm Cohen, JAFL vol. 99, no. 392, 1896, pp. 241-247; "Blues, Pre-Blues, and Gospel Reissues."
The article discusses Paul Oliver's "Songsters & Saints: Vocal Traditions on Race Records," and the two volumes of recordings that complement the book.

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

- - - HELP PLEASE? - - -

There's a phrase in this version of "This Mornin' This Evenin' that I can't get. Can anyone????

The blues songster Julius Daniels recorded the following song in Atlanta, October 24, 1927, issued on Victor 21359.

He plays it in a very "white" style unlike his usual way of singing (he's an African-American bluesman who sometimes sings gospel, ordinarily in a heartfelt manner. On this cut he is flat-toned, brisk, offhand. Could he have learned it from whites and copied their style in just this song?

The tune is quite different from standard, too.

Tempting to think of this song frame as originating in a work song -- either teamster, or riverboat roustabout?

If you have access to the Daniels track, help me out on that chorus phrase if you can.

CAN'T PUT THE BRIDLE ON THAT MULE THIS MORNING

as sung by Julius Daniels

Aw, this ol' mule keep a-cuttin' the fool, this mornin',
This ol' mule keep a-cuttin' the fool this mornin',
This old mule keep a-cuttin' the fool,
I can't put a bridle on this ol' mule,

Cho: This mornin', got    [ -- ? -- ? (2 syllables not understood) ]    for me.

and to the same framework:

I told that mule, mule wouldn't gee ...
I hit him in the head with a singletree...

I got on the mule, mule wouldn't ride
I hit him in the head with a single try.

(repeat verse 1)

I told that nigger with the black hat on
I'm gonna hit him in the head just as sure as you're born

Nigger and the white man playin' seven-up
Nigger won the money but 's scared to pick it up

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:59 PM

It is also possible that 'This morning, this evening, so soon," floated and becane a closer to two-three line verses in more than one song lineage.
I would not doubt that there is a gospel song that used that or similar line, but until older, dated (more or less) verse(s) are found with that or similar line, it will remain difficult to identify the lineage that has the precursor.

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 10:21 AM

The closest line in a spiritual I've been able to find is probably unrelated, or at most an echo of "This mornin', this evenin', so soon:

Had to get up this mornin', soon, soon,
Had to get up this mornin', soon.

But Odum and Johnson, in Negro Workaday Songs, 163, do have an interesting lesbian-related song from the woman's viewpoint whose last line makes it a possible distant relation:

DERE'S A LEZZIE AFTER MY MAN

Dere's a lezzie after my man,
Dere's a lezzie after my man,
She'll get him if she can,
'Cause I kotch her holdin' his hand,
Dis a-mawnin', dis evenin, more'n late.

Her face am powdered white (2)
Her hair am greasy and slick,
On my man she try to work her trick,
Dis a-mawnin', dis evenin' more'n soon.

She comed round to my do' (2)
Den I ripped offen her skirt,
Den I tore offen his shirt,
Dis a-mawnin', dis evenin' more'n soon.

Trouble is, Odum and Johnson don't give sources! Frustrating.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:06 AM

Yes, and the "Oh Mourner" "Ain't no use" verse also appears in the "Talking Blues." But the "This Morning, This Evening" part isn't there...and I think that's the determinant.

Truth is, the "Ain't no use" verse and its concomitants "She thinks I'm workin'", etc. are floating verses that turn up in several other songs. IMO, that doesn't create a relationship between them.

What intrigues me is the possibility that, way back, there might be a 19th century Afro-American spiritual / gospel song with the refrain "This morning, this evening." I'm looking in what sources I have, no luck yet.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 12:21 AM

Curious is the relationship of This Morning, This Evening, with OH, MOURNER (sometimes Oh Moaner/Mona)Also known as: You shall be free.

Lyr ADD: OH, MOURNER

Journal of American Folk Lore VOL. XXVIII.—NO. 108.—IO.

(From Mississippi; negroes; MS. of F. R. Rubel; 1909.)

Ain't no use in me workin' so hard;
I got a gal in the white folks yard.
She fetch me meat and she fetch me lard.
Ain't a bit of use in me workin' so hard.


Compare another version from Mississippi:

I got a gal in de white folk's ya'd,
She brings me chicgn en she brings me la'd
She steals me ham an' she steals me meat
She thinks I'm wukkin', but I'm walkin', de street

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:36 PM

Here's the Tar Heels version, you can listen at honking duck site. Some great harmonica playing!

LYR ADD: "There Ain't No Use In Me Working So Hard" by "The Carolina Tar Heels" Victor 20844 Recorded: Unknown Issued: August 1927

(Harmonica solo)

Well there ain't no use in me workin' so hard
This morning, this morning.
Well there ain't no use in me workin' so hard,
This evening this evening.
Well there ain't no use in workin' so hard
I've got a gal in the white man's yard
This morning, this evening, right now

Well you brought me your eggs and you brought me your ham
This morning this morning
Well you brought me your eggs and you brought me your ham
This morning this morning
Well you brought me your eggs and you brought me your ham
If you don't bring me chicken I don't give a…(oh oh)
This morning this evening right now

Well there's an old hen sittin' in the chimney jam
This morning, this morning.
Well there's an old hen sittin' in the chimney jam
This evening this evening.
Well there's an old hen sittin' in the chimney jam
Well if that ain't a hot place I'll be damned (Keep on throwin' those biscuits down)
This morning, this evening, right now.

Well there ain't no use in me workin' so hard
This morning, this morning.
Well there ain't no use in me workin' so hard,
This evening this evening.
Well there ain't no use in workin' so Hard
I've got a gal in the white man's yard
This morning, this evening, right now.

"We used to have some times back then. I remember that George Morris and I used to buddy around together quite a bit. George is Zeke and Wiley's older brother. George more or less learned off of me, and his brothers, Wiley and Zeke, more or less learned off of him. They were the ones that came up with that song 'Salty Dog.' I made some records, but never made much money off of them. I did some recording with Gwen Foster as 'The Carolina Twins.' We recorded several numbers for Columbia including a song we called 'This Morning, This Evening, Right Now.' Art Satherly was the man in charge up there."
Walter Davis - Fist & Skull Banjo by Wayne Erbsen

Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:07 PM

Here's the Kingston Trio version:

This Mornin', This Evenin', So Soon

Tell old Bill when he leaves home this mornin',
tell old Bill when he leaves home this evenin',
Tell old Bill when he leaves home
To let those downtown girls alone,
This mornin', this evenin', so soon.

Old Sal was bakin' bread this mornin'.
Old Sal was bakin' bread this evenin'.
Old Sal was bakin' bread
When she got word that Bill was dead,
this mornin', this evenin', so soon.

Oh, no! It can't be so this mornin'.
Oh, no! It can't be so this evenin'.
Oh, no! It can't be so.
My Bill left home about an hour ago,
this mornin', this evenin', so soon.

They brought Bill home in a hurry-up wagon this mornin'.
They brought Bill home in a hurry-up wagon this evenin'.
Brought Bill home in a hurry-up wagon.
Brought Bill home with his toes a-draggin'
This mornin', this evenin', so soon.

Repeat first verse

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:58 PM

Thanks Q- great version. It's very similar to the one used by the early white string bands.

The relationship between "This Morning" and "The Crawdad Song" is evident in this song from Sharp's EFSSA p. 275

Lyr ADD: The Crow-fish Man
Collected by Cecil Sharp, June 2, 1917 from Mrs. Wilson Ky.

Wake up, darling, don't sleep too late,
The crow-fish man's done passed our gate,
This morning, so soon.

Selling crow-fish two for a dime,
Nobody's crow-fish eats like mine,
This morning so soon.

Around the mountain I must go,
If anything happens let me know,
This morning so soon.

Come to my house, just come to my field;
If you can't bring money bring meat and meal;
This morning so soon.

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:23 PM

LYR. ADD: DIS MORNIN'
(Mississippi, Negroes, 1909)

See dem ole farmers goin' on to town, this mornin', (2X)
See dem ole farmers goin' on to town
Wid er one horse waggin an' er it broke down,
Dis mornin', er dis evenin', so soon.

See dem ole farmers come along back, dis mornin', (2X)
See dem ole farmers come along back
Wid er piece o' meat in er crocus sack.
Dis mornin', etc. (1)

Mommer kilt er chicken, an' she give me de wing, dis mornin', (2X)
Mommer kilt er chicken, an' she give me de wing;
She thought I was workin', an' I warn't doin' a thing.
Dis mornin', etc.

Mommer kilt er chicken, an' she give me de head, dis mornin', (2X)
Mommer kilt er chicken, an' she give me de head;
She thought I was workin', an' I's lyin' in the bed.

(1) Compare Joel Chandler Harris, "Uncle Remus and His Friends," p. 200. Also cf. Harvard College Library, 25254.10.5.
"Uncle Remus and His Friends" copyright 1892. (My copy is in part of a compilation volume and it will take me a while to sort out 'p. 200.'

E. C. Perrow, "Songs and Rhymes from the South," 1911-1915, part 3, vol. 28, 1915, part VII, no. 2.

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:58 AM

Here's one early African-American source from 1911

Lyr ADD: MULE-SONG

From JOAFL Vol. 24 1911 Article by Howard Odum:
"The negroes have much to say about the mule in their work, and
have much to do with him in actual life. Their songs also contain
references to him. A mixture of parts of song added to experience
and imagination produced the following "mule-song:"

I went up Zion Hill this mornin' on a wagon,
I went on a wagon up Zion's Hill this mornin',
The durn ole mule stop right still this mornin', this mornin', so soon.

I got out an' went 'round to his head this mornin',
I got out an' went 'round to his head this mornin',
The durn ole mule was standin' there dead, this mornin', so soon.

Yes, I hollow at the mule, an' the mule would not gee, this mornin',
Yes, I hollow at the mule, an' the mule would not gee,
An' I hit him across the head with the single-tree, so soon.

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:33 AM

Thinking about the geography involved in "Tell Ol' Bill"... St. Louis being a Mississippi River city, the song could have traveled on the steamboats.

But it need not have originated in St. Louis, especially if Nancy Barnhart was from Texas herself.

Occurrence in east Texas (Hinton, Walker County) opens up the possibility that the song could have come from Dallas (home of fiddling Prince Albert Hunt, if I remember aright, and a pretty fierce whorehouse scene), Ft. Worth, Houston, Shreveport, LA or some smaller town. I'll keep looking for a capsule biography of Barnhart, have found none yet.

On the other hand, information at
http://www.oldtownschool.org/resources/songnotes/songnotes_TU.html
says Hinton learned his version "ten years later" than Sandburg's 1920s version. So the Texas link may be tenuous at best.

Googling Nancy Barnhart turns up some work she did as a children's illustrator for a book by Mildred Criss McGucken, also for a Kenneth Grahame book...assuming it's the same one. There are various other modern Nancy Barnharts.

Getting near the bottom of the barrel on this one. Sure would like to trace it to an actual place and event, though. -- Bob

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:13 AM

This still leaves "Tell Ol' Bill" a mystery, with only one original source, Sandburg. There must be some other root to this! Not written by his artist friend, Nancy Barnhart, I assume -- if so, she was an extremely unusual artist.

Where did she get it? Does anybody have research resources into St. Louis black history c. 1920s that might turn up a murder case with similarities?

More important, does anyone know of ANY other version of "Tell Ol' Bill" contemporary with, or earlier than, Sandburg's (collected 1922?, in print 1927)???

There's Sam Hinton's version, of course, but that may not differ much. I listened to the sample of Hinton singing "Tell Old Bill" on the Library of Congress CD. He varies the tune somewhat, but not significantly. What's audible is melodically pretty much the same as Sandburg, and lyrically identical for two verses.

Anybody got clues? Where is Hercule Poirot when we need him? "Do not derange yourself" etc. -- Bob

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:06 AM

Richie,

All I can say is, WOW. Thanks for the tremendous resource list.

I checked out the Lomax reference. Their "Old Bill" is from Sandburg. But they give a second version sent by a William E. Bolin from New York City.

Oh, I was hungry from head to foot, / feet? BC
Dis mornin', dis ebenin',
Oh, I was hungry from head to foot,
Dis mornin', dis ebenin',
Oh, I was hungry from head to foot,
And I went to a place to get something to eat,
Dis mornin', dis ebenin', so soon.

I bought me a doughnut and licked off the grease...
And gave the waiter a five-cent piece...

He looked at the nickel and he looked at me...
And he said, 'Tain't good, and you can't fool me...

Dar's a hole in the middle, and it goes straight through...
Says I, Dar's a hole in the doughnut, too...

I met a man a-walking on de track...
And he had a banjo strapped on his back...

He stubbed his toe, and down he fell...
And he smashed the banjo all to hell...

(Ouch! hurts the banjo picker in me - Bob)

Carolina Tar Heels as recorded by Dock Walsh and group on Folk Legacy records FSA-24:

THIS MORNING, THIS EVENING, RIGHT NOW

Well,an old hen a-settin' in a chimney jamb
This morning, this morning,
Old hen a-settin' in a chimney jamb
This evening, this evening,
Old hena-settin' in a chimney jamb,
There's plenty in the hot place -- look out, Dock,
This morning, this evening, right now.

Well, there ain't no use in me workin' so hard...
I've got a gal in the white man's yard...

Well, she brought me eggs and she brought me ham...
She stole me a chicken -- oh! oh! -- there you done it...

Well, you oughta been livin' and you oughta been dead...
You oughta had a pistol hole shot through your head...

Well, I had an old mule and he wouldn't gee...
Well, I hit him in the head with a singletree...

Later if I get time I will add the Carolina Tar Heels 1927 original of this, if there are any text variances. - Bob

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:21 AM

Left off this from ballad index:

Ain't No Use Workin' So Hard

DESCRIPTION: "Ain't no use of my workin' so hard, darlin' (x2), I got a gal in the (rich/white) folks' yard, She kill me a chicken, She bring me the wing, Ain't I livin' on an easy thing..." "She thinks I'm workin', I'm layin' in bed...."
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1923 (Brown)
KEYWORDS: work food floatingverses
FOUND IN: US(SE,So)
REFERENCES (3 citations):
BrownIII 478, "You Shall Be Free" (1 text, with three verses of this plus one apparent floater and the "Oh, nigger, you shall be free" chorus)
Scarborough-NegroFS, p. 235, "Ain't No Use O' My Workin' So Hard" (1 text, 1 tune; also as a floating verse in the song preceding this one; see also the fragment following) also p. 236, (no title) (1 fragment)
Darling-NAS, pp. 328-329, "Ain't No Use Workin' So Hard" (1 text);
RECORDINGS:
Carolina Tar Heels, "There Ain't No Use Working So Hard" (Victor 20544, 1927)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Sugar Babe (III)" (lyrics)
cf. "Mourner, You Shall Be Free (Moanish Lady)" (lyrics)
cf. "Dat's All Right" (lyrics)
cf. "Tell Old Bill" (structure, refrain)
cf. "Cocaine (The Furniture Man)" (lyrics)
Notes: This is a floating fragment which often joins songs such as the "Talking Blues," "You Shall Be Free," and perhaps "Raise a Ruckus." But it's here because it apparently exists on its own also. - RBW
Yep -- see the Carolina Tar Heels' recording, for one example. - PJS
File: DarNS329

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:11 PM

Here's some basic info from the folk index/ballad index:

This Morning, This Evening (So Soon/Right Now) [Me II-Z 8c]
Rt - Red Hot Breakdown; Wagon; Policeman
Rm - How Many Biscuits Can You Eat
1. Lomax, John A. & Alan Lomax / American Ballads and Folk Songs, MacMillan, Bk (1934), p.100 [1920s] (Old Bill)
2. Leisy, James F. (ed.) / Hootenanny Tonight!, Gold Medal Books, sof (1964), p147 (Tell Old Bill)
3. Sandburg, Helga (ed.) / Sweet Music, Dial, Bk (1963), p 45 (Tell Old Bill)
4. Barnhart, Nancy. Sandburg, Carl / American Songbag, Harcourt Brace Jovan..., Sof (1955/1928), p 18 (Dis Mornin' Dis Evenin' So Soon)
5. Carawan, Guy. This Little Light of Mine, Folkways FG 3552, LP (1959), trk# A.04 (Tell Old Bill)
6. Carawan, Guy. Asch, Moses (ed.) / 124 Folk Songs as Sung and Recorded on Folkways Reco, Robbins Music, Fol (1965), p105 (Tell Old Bill)
7. Carolina Tar Heels. Carolina Tar Heels, Folk Legacy FSA-024, LP (1965), trk# 8 [1962/08/11]
8. Gibson, Bob. Everybody Sing, Vol 3., Riverside RLP-1420, LP (196?), trk# B.06a (Ol' Bill)
9. Gibson, Bob. Sing Out! Reprints, Sing Out, Sof (196?), 5, p19 (Old Bill)
10. Gibson, Bob. I Come for to Sing, Riverside RLP 12-806, LP (1957), trk# A.06 (Ol' Bill)
11. Hinton, Sam. Singing Across the Land, Decca DL 8108, LP (1955), trk# B.02c (Tell Old Bill)
12. Marshall, Charley. Charley Marshall Sings Folk, Ikon IER 109, LP (1956?), trk# A.01 (Old Bill)
13. Mitchell Trio. Reflecting, Mercury MG 20891, LP (1964), trk# B.01 (Tell Old Bill)
14. Sayre, George; and Charlie Stivers. Songs of the Drinking Gourd, Concept CFM 1001, LP (1960), trk# A.05 (Old Bill)
15. Sessions, Bob. Room at the Top, JHU, LP (197?), trk# B.03 (Tell Old Bill)
16. Silverman, Jerry. Silverman, Jerry (ed.) / Folksingers Guitar Guide, Advanced, Oak, Sof (1964), p44 (Tell Old Bill)
17. Skillet Lickers. Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers, Rounder 1005, LP (1973), trk# 3 [1927/04/11] (Setting in the Chimney Jamb)
18. Smith, William B.. Shay, Frank (ed.) / My Pious Friends and Drunken Companions and More ..., Dover, Sof (1961/1927), p200 (Dis Mornin' Dis Evenin' So Soon)
19. Van Ronk, Dave. Dave Van Ronk Sings, Vol. 2, Folkways FA 2383, LP (1961), trk# A.04 (Tell Old Bill)
20. Watson, Doc. Watson Family Tradition, Rounder 0129, LP (1977), trk# A.06 (Biscuits)

How Many Biscuits Can You Eat [Me II-Z 8c] - Ralston/Miller
Rt - Crawdad (Song)
Rm - This Morning, This Evening (So Soon/Right Now)
21. Coon Creek Girls. Early Radio Favorites, Old Homestead OHS 142, LP (1982), trk# 3
22. Coon Creek Girls. Old Time Herald, Old Time Herald, Ser, 3/6, p44(1992) [1940s]
23. Foster, Gwen (Gwin/Gwyn/Guinn). Early Rural String Bands, RCA (Victor) LPV-552, LP (1968), trk# 14 [1939/02/05]
24. Freight Hoppers. Where'd You Come From, Where'd You Go?, Rounder 0403, CD (1996), trk# 14
25. Howard, Clint. Looking off Down the Road, Old Homestead OHS-80060, LP (1983), trk# 5
26. Jones, Grandpa. 24 Great Country Songs, King 967, LP (1975), trk# A.06
27. Mother Logo. Branching Out, Legend SG 5005, LP (1986), trk# A.02
28. Pleasant Family. Old Time String Band, Pleasant --, CD (2005), trk# 17 (Bisquit Song)
29. Stringbean (David Ackerman). Stringbean and His Banjo. A Salute to Uncle Dave Macon, Starday SLP 215, LP (1963), trk# 7
30. Wiseman, Mac. 20 Old-Time Country Favorites, Rural Rhythm RHY-258, CD (1997/1966), trk# 7

Red Hot Breakdown [Me II-Z 8c]
Rt - This Morning, This Evening (So Soon/Right Now)
31. Corn Dodgers. Nobody's Business If I Do, Rooster 106, LP (1980), trk# B.01
32. Johnson, Earl; and his Clodhoppers. Red Hot Breakdown, County 543, LP (1976), trk# A.06 [1927/10/07]
33. Weems, Ace; and his Fat Meat Boys. It's All Gone Now, Carryon 002, LP (199?), trk# B.06

The Wagon - Harney, Ben
Rt - This Morning, This Evening (So Soon/Right Now)
Rm - Crawdad (Song)
34. Harney, Ben. Folk Songs of America. The Robert Winslow Gordon Collection...., Library of Congress AFS L68, LP (1978), trk# 13 [1925/09/09ca]

Policeman
Rt - This Morning, This Evening (So Soon/Right Now)
35. Cockerham, Jarrell and Jenkins. Down to the Cider Mill, County 713, LP (1968), trk# 11
36. Foghorn Stringband. Foghorn Stringband, Foghorn, CD (2003), trk# 4
37. Hall, Kenny; and the Sweets Mill String Band. Kenny Hall and the Sweets Mill String Band, Bay TPH-727, LP (1973), trk# B.06
38. High on the Hog. Last Chance, High Hog, CD (2003), trk# 9
39. Jarrell, Tommy; and Kyle Creed. June Apple, Mountain 302, LP (1972), trk# 5
40. Martin, Reed. Old Time Banjo in America, Kicking Mule KM 204, LP (1978), trk# 9 [1975ca]
Spare Change Boys. Berkeley Farms, Folkways FA 2436, LP (1972), trk# B.04

How Many Biscuits Can You Eat?
DESCRIPTION: "How many biscuits can you eat, this mornin', this mornin'? (x2) Forty-nine, and a ham of meat, this mornin'." Discussion of food, work, etc., with many floating verses ("Ain't no use me workin' so hard," "If you get there before I do").
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1928 (recording, Humphrey Bate)
KEYWORDS: food nonballad work
FOUND IN: US(SE)
Roud #7876
RECORDINGS:
Dr. Humphrey Bate & his Possum Hunters, "How Many Biscuits Can You Eat?" (Brunswick 232, 1928)
Gwen Foster, "How Many Biscuits Can I Eat" (Bluebird B-8082/Montgomery Ward M-7859 [as "How Many Biscuits Can You Eat"], 1939)
Grandpa Jones, "How Many Biscuits Can You Eat?" (King 740, 1948)
Pickard Family, "How Many Biscuits Can You Eat" (Coast 253, n.d.)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Crawdad" (tune)
SAME TUNE:
Crawdad (File: R443)
Notes: This is pretty definitely built about "Crawdad," or one of its relatives, and manages to be even sillier than that silly song. But it's been recorded enough that I finally decided it went in the Index. - RBW

Tell Old Bill
DESCRIPTION: "Tell old Bill, when he leaves home this morning, Tell old Bill, when he leaves home this evening, Tell old Bill... To let them downtown coons alone...." (An hour after) Bill left he is dead/murdered and being brought home in a "hurry-up wagon"
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1927 (Sandburg)
KEYWORDS: death whore murder
FOUND IN: US(So)
REFERENCES (4 citations):
Sandburg, pp. 18-19, "Dis Mornin', Dis Evenin', So Soon" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lomax-ABFS, pp. 100-102, "Old Bill" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Silber-FSWB, p. 78, "Tell Old Bill" (1 text)
DT, OLDBILL*
Roud #7876
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Ain't No Use Workin' So Hard" (structure, refrain)

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:39 AM

Hi Bob,

Nice work. I don't have Hinton's "Tell Old Bob" sorry. He also does "Mr. Rabbit." I'm not sure of the connection tho. I'll see if I can find Hinton's version/lyrics.

The first post you made seems to point in directions of an African-American source since both Odum and Johnson, The Negro and His Songs (1925) and Hinton's sources probably pre-date Sandburg's.

Any other early versions?

If see if have some that aren't in the DT that I can post later when I have more time.

Thanks,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:04 PM

I'm repeating on this site my query on the other "Tell Ol' Bill" thread:

Can anyone contribute Sam Hinton's lyrics to "Tell Old Bill," which he says he got from a black farmer in Walker County, Texas during childhood?

Born c. 1917, it's possible Hinton could have an earlier version than Sandburg. Would be nice to know his lyrics, his tune, and what more he says about its origins.

Despite its having become a standard, this is a very rare song. Apart from anything Hinton may have, Sandburg's is the earliest version of Bill's downtown rambles, murder and return home dead, and the only one in print.

Anyone else get the feeling there's a story here? We have early versions in St. Louis and Texas. Could it trace back to an actual murder in the red light district, or was it a made-up song without basis in reality?

Anyone have any insights?

Bob

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

For "Old Bill the Rollin' Pin" and more on "Tell Old Bill" see this thread:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=6761#39805

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:08 AM

Just re-listened to Dr. Humphrey Bate's "How Many Biscuits," first occurrence of that song I have found. Interesting that the band plays an instrumental break similar to "Soldier's Joy," allied to one strain of the tune Bate recorded as "Goin' Up Town."

HOW MANY BISCUITS CAN YOU EAT?

Oh, how many biscuits can you eat, this mornin', this mornin',
Oh, how many biscuits can you eat, this mornin', this mornin',
Oh, how many biscuits can you eat,
Forty-four biscuits and a ham o' meat,
This mornin', for breakfast, so soon.

Oh, when you see me lookin' straight...
Come an' a-git this biscuit plate...

Oh when you see me lookin' mean...
Bacon an' eggs had better be seen...

Oh, how many biscuits ... (repeat first verse)

Subject: RE: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:57 AM

Odum and Johnson, The Negro and His Songs (1925) have the following. Clearly the song framework traces back to join the "Mister Rabbit" lyric family.

Note one less than the usual three repetitions of the first line in both "This Mornin'" and "Brer Rabbit.".

THIS MORNIN', THIS EVENIN', SO SOON

Went up town wid my hat in my han' dis mornin'
Went up town wid my hat in my han',
"Good mornin', Judge, done killed my man,"
This mornin', this evenin', so soon.

"I didn't quite kill him, but I fixed him so...
He won't bodder wid me no mo''' ...

All I want is my strong hand-out ...
It will make me strong and stout ...

When you kill a chicken, save me the feet ...
When you think I'm workin', I'm walkin' the street ...

When you kill a chicken, save me the whang ...
When you think I'm workin' I ain't doin' a thang ...

Taint no use me workin' so ...
'Cause I ain't goin' ter work no mo' ...

I'm goin' back to Tennessee ...
Where dem wimmins git stuck on me ...

to the same framework Odum and Johnson give

BRER RABBIT

O Brer Rabbit! you look mighty good ...
Yes, by God! you better take to the wood ...

O Brer Rabbit! yo' ears mighty long ...
Yes, by God! dey's put in wrong ...

O Brer Rabbit! yo' tail mighty white ...
Yes, by God! yer better take to flight ...

Carl Sandburg (1927) followed this up with "Tell Ol' Bill" within a couple of years. The first commercial recordings were "Ain't No Use Workin' So Hard" by the Carolina Tar Heels, "Red Hot Breakdown" by Earl Johnson and His Clodhoppers, 1927.

"How Many Biscuits Can You Eat" was first recorded by Dr. Humphrey Bate in 1928. The song is also related to "Settin' in the Chimney Jamb":

Old maid settin' in the chimney jamb, this mornin' ...
If that ain't a hot place, I'll be damn' ...

I don't know how the "Tell Ol' Bill" story originated, but Sandburg says he got it from "Nancy Barnhart, painter and etcher, of St. Louis." That's also where "Frankie and Johnny" originated. Because of its relative sophistication, I'm betting the "Tell Ol' Bill" story may have started as a bordello song. But its origin is still a mystery.

Subject: Origin: This Morn, This Eve, Right Now
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 01:17 PM

Hi all,

I've been doing some research into "This Morning, This Evening, Right Now/So Soon."

I think it may be of African-American origin. I don't know how it morphed into the Tell Old Bill- Old Bill versions or the "How many Biscuits" versions. Is tell Old Bill a sanitized version of the original?

It's also known as "Ain't No Use Workin' So Hard."

Does anyone use the same melody as 'Mama Don't 'Low"?

Richie