BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:08 AM

Right. That's what courts are for. However, if you catch him "Red handed", that's a different story; then, he may pose a deadly threat to you and you have a right to defend yourself, or your wife's honor. If he doesn't have a weapon, it would be friendly of you to give him one. After you blow his fecking brains out.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 05:21 PM

Never shoot a fleeing crook
Even if he's run amok
nicked your money, killed the wife
Cut your dick off with his knife
Let him run off, with your dong
To shoot the blighter would be wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 04:22 PM

You must never shoot a fleeing felon. He poses no immediate threat to you, and there is no reason to use deadly force.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 02:29 PM

listen to the song by eric bogle called keeper of the flame

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 08:30 AM

Homicide in England and Wales reaches its lowest level for 30 years:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

"Offences such as pickpocketing, shoplifting and bicycle theft rose 2%, the only crime category to show a rise."

even in the US you can't shoot a fleeing intruder in the back.

Oh yes you can, as in this case from Texas in 1994:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-110798618.html

...except the guy wasn't even an intruder, he was trying to get help after being abducted.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 06:38 AM

We have met the enemy, and he is us. (Pogo)

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 11:54 AM

"No one should have that power, and no government should have it either. "

But in a democracy that power is given to the government by the people. Sure, they may not always exercise that power very well or in a way you'd like, but they are accountable at the ballot box.

Considering the noise Americans make about their democracy, and their efforts to impose it on other parts of the world, it seems that many of its citizens don't trust it.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 06:50 AM

"We would never allow the government to have that much control over any of our rights.In other words, we just don't trust the bastards!"

Is this true though? Your government, like ours on the UK is not acting in the best interests of the citizenry but largely for corporate gain, a gradual take over of governance which is virtually complete (as the failure in Rio demonstrates), unaccountable and not concerned with social responsibility.

If the US is awash with guns so the citizens can hold the government to account, then you've all been fast asleep, or (as with us here), have been conned so throughly the penny's only just beginning to drop.

Lock and load.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 06:39 AM

An excellent response. Totally logical.
I've said it before and I'll repeat, If I had the power to make all guns disappear, I would.
Next on my list,
Electric instruments
Haggis
Egg plant
Celery
All rap "music"
All rock and roll
TV commercials.
Unmuffled Motorcycles.
I hope my point is obvious. No one should have that power, and no government should have it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 06:24 AM

Kendall, that seems to be a common response from your compatriots. But surely the point of having a government is to balance individual rights against the interests of the wider community? If the rights of the individual are always paramount, you have anarchy.

I don't suppose we're any more trusting of our politicians than you are of yours, but I don't usually feel that my rights are under threat - at least not in ways which can't be addressed through the usual democratic means. In particular, I don't feel the loss of my right to bear arms because I don't feel the need to bear arms in the first place.

It's an interesting reflection on how different our societies really are. You find it reassuring that you have the right to bear arms, I find it reassuring that I don't need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 08:38 PM

Howard, where you stand depends on where you are standing.

We would never allow the government to have that much control over any of our rights.In other words, we just don't trust the bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 02:42 PM

I suspect a great many of my parents' generation had unlicensed guns tucked away somewhere as souvenirs of the War. We certainly did - we had a small .22 unrifled gun which my father had deactivated and which I played cowboys or soldiers with, on strict instructions not to take it out of the back garden to where someone might see it. We also had my great-grandfather's .38 police revolver (he'd been a sergeant in Battersea Police in the 1890s) which was kept in a box in the attic. We had no ammunition for either, and there was no question of using either for defence.

My father got rid of the .22 after I left home, and when they made possession punishable by a mandatory 5-year sentence I surrendered the .38 to the police. I hope it made it's way to the Metropolitan Police Museum but I never heard anything.

My point is that these guns weren't kept to be used and in many cases were incapable of being used. Neither that generation nor mine feel the need to arm ourselves for self-defence. If my house is burgled or if I am mugged it is very unlikely that the criminal will be carrying a gun (although a mugger may have a knife) and they in turn can be fairly confident that I won't either. It's the opposite of the Cold War's Mutually Assured Destruction.

I accept that there is a culture of gun and knife violence in some sections of our society, and that innocent bystanders who live in the affected areas may not feel as safe in their homes or on the streets as I generally do. But I truly believe that to most of us it has simply never occurred to us to arm ourselves for self-defence. .

The UK has a largely urban population, and there is no widespread culture of hunting with guns (except in rural areas). We don't have dangerous animals which we need to protect ourselves from. As for national defence, perhaps we are naive but I believe most of us have confidence in our armed forces. Perhaps the fact that they owe their allegiance to the Crown rather than to the government of the day helps.

From this side of the water, I can fully understand the circumstances which in the early days of the United States made the right to bear arms seem to be a necessity. However circumstances have changed, US society has moved on, and now the apparent obsession with the right to own a gun seems to be quaint and outdated, a throwback to a frontier society which mostly no longer exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 02:03 PM

It's the old "Camel's nose under the tent flap" fear, the "foot in the door" clap trap.
The NRA feeds on fear and lies. If the government can take a nutballs guns, when will they come for mine? Gun nuts vote, and the gutless po9liticians cater to them with tales of how they will protect our rights to buy as many guns as we will need when the government takes away all our rights.

If you think education is expensive, consider ignorance.

Ignorance breeds fear and fear breeds hate. (And the haters breed)

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 12:46 PM

I'm quite ready to believe that most gun-owners in the United Sates aren't nuts, and that the nuts are a small and unrepresentative minority.

What puzzles me is why they seem willing to allow this small and unrepresentative minbority of nuts who control the NRA to speak for them, and to get in the way of bringing in the kind of sensible gun controls that any gun-owner who isn't a nut would want to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 12:16 PM

It would seem that somebody is too stupid to realise that a compulsorily well trained military force does not equate in numbers or purpose to an unregulated, untrained, armed to the teeth citizenry.

In which of the two circumstances would an objective observer feel that he had reason for fear?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 11:27 AM

Ah, and if only all "solid citizens" remained solid.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 10:13 AM

Oh boy.

Just when I thought that most in the United States were much more like me than the commonly publicised view on this issue.

Where do those commentators get their stats about us from?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 09:29 AM

Check this out

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 08:47 AM

John, it's called progress. The Indians had a thousand years to perfect the bow and arrow method. The colonists used what they were familiar with.

If I had my way, all automatic firearms would be banned, and all hand guns would also be banned. ALL, not just those that belong to solid citizens.Severe penalties for possession would deter many.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 04:26 AM

going out for waterfowl and buffalo meat this morning, to the supermarket. Taking he Glock and the Uzi - so I may be some little time! If I can get a clean headshot, I'll go for that - otherwise, its the Visa debit card.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 03:53 AM

Indeed, John: not with guns before Paleface arrived, that's for sure!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 03:45 AM

Gee, I wonder how the (Native American)Indians killed deer and buffalo?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 03:27 AM

"Although we speak the same language we are certainly not the same society, not the same culture and with both have differing values."

Though again Jack to be fair I did not say we were the same society or suggest we were an identical society. I said we were similar type societies which is not the same thing! Thanks for pointing out that the other poster's remarks were wide of the mark though. Having the finger pointed at you suggesting you have racist tendencies was a bit much when all I did was say that the stats from other countries were not relevant to the debate in question. One may agree or disagree with my point but there was nothing racist about it. For a scot of course what irked more was the suggestion that I was English :-) Though I love the English enough to marry one of them - I am not myself English!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 10:45 PM

'It was the actions of the Redcoats before and during our revolution that caused the wide spread ownership of guns.'

with respect, you've had a fair bit of time to recover from that trauma.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:34 PM

No, John. those who misuse them are shit.

It was the actions of the Redcoats before and during our revolution that caused the wide spread ownership of guns.
When they marched out of Boston to seize the guns and powder that belonged to the colonists in Concord and Lexington, that is what really tore the rag off the bush.

How did they expect them to hunt their food without a gun? Did they think Deer meat came from gardens? Were they expected to hunt waterfowl with a stick?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:28 PM

""The comment about "wogs" was intentional, as it often seems that UKers feel that they and their way of life is superior to that of folks elsewhere. Truly, it does.""

Have another look at the thread title, then use your cognitive faculties to figure out who is belittling whom.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 04:42 PM

The comment about "wogs" was intentional, as it often seems that UKers feel that they and their way of life is superior to that of folks elsewhere. Truly, it does.

Laws regarding the ownership and use of firearms (or any weapon) reflect the history and social matrix of a country. In truth, I think that the US should require ALL gun owners (and purchasers) to complete a comprehensive training course, including psycho-social evaluation, before a permit to own a firearm is issued. Unfortunately, this chance passed the US by in about 1959 and given the climate today it's not feasible right now.

I should have known better and kept my promise to myself not to mix in political discussions. I'll do so in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 03:37 PM

Guns are shit

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 03:35 PM

Well thankfully Scotland and last I heard England were not American states no matter how much certain folk in high places there appear to think they are. Our country Our laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 02:34 PM

Owning a gun does not make you a Nutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 01:50 PM

""We must bring Civilization and Enlightenment to the wogs!"

Hmmm. You can't talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand. Well, not openly anyway. Pretty offensive, rather wide of the mark and . . . oh well.

" the murder rate in the UK is way below that of the US despite us being similar type societies."

But as any fule kno who's visited one to the other of either countries from either both the above statements are total shite, born of ignorance. Although we speak the same language we are certainly not the same society, not the same culture and with both have differing values. That's not a judgement on either country, it just is.

I have friends in the US who are into guns big style, and don't understand I really am not comfortable handling guns, or blanch at the idea of having a collection of firearms in the house. When I'm in the US, I simply can't imagine that a fair number of people around me might be carrying a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 11:14 AM

"We must bring Civilization and Enlightenment to the wogs!" Actually you are going all over the place here. I did not bring these other countries up - you did. You stated that their stats were worse than the US. I simply pointed out that it is irrelevant when talking about the comparison between the US and UK. I simply stated that the fact that the murder rate in the UK is so far below that in the US that it makes no sense when Americans suggest, as they sometimes do, that the UK does not protect its citizens. Neither did I suggest that the UK is not a violent place. In fact I particularly pointed out the problem of knife violence in Scotland. The plain fact though is that this violent country still has a low murder rate in comparison to the US. That is the point!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 10:37 AM

Whatever we're doing we must be doing something right. The fact that there are other nations (ie Columbia and Mexico etc) where things are even worse is neither here nor there.

I do not throw stones at the UK gun laws, nor do I believe that any laws in one country will work in another without extensive social preparation.

But the above quotation seems to me to have all of the Victorian "We must bring Civilization and Enlightenment to the wogs!" attitude that England (and, yes, the US) that should have died ages ago.

Shall we talk about assaults, rapes, and other violent crime -- the stuff that made Britain "the most dangerous country in Europe"?? Or the conviction rates for rape?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 10:15 AM

How many of these deaths, in both countries, are tied to drugs and drug trafficking?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: IanC
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:42 AM

I'm not sure why we shouldn't let the facts speak for themselves by just doing a simple comparison of the USA and the UK, both fairly populous places and with a similar culture, with the exception of gun laws and the attitude to firearms (which I think is perhaps more significant).

In the USA, for 2010, there were a total of 12,996 murdered people. With a population of 308,745,538, this amounts to 40.2 per million murdered with 67.5% (8,775) of these being shot to death.

In the UK, for 2010, there were a total of 773 people murdered. With a population of 62,262,000, this amounts to 11.5 per million with loess than 9% (103) of these being shot to death.

If the number of people shot to death in the USA was reduced to the same level as in the UK, it would reduce the US murder rate to only about twice what it is in the UK instead of 4 times.

I think it would be wise for people in glass houses not to throw stones about UK gun laws.

Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 04:21 AM

MGM - I have the poorest sense of direction of anybody I know. Its inherited - my Mother thought Cornwall was on the eastern side of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 02:15 AM

"I do not deny the figures or that they are atrocious. But let's also keep them in perspective when discussing this topic"

I'm keeping them completely in perspective though. All I said was that you sometimes have claims from US posters that the UK somehow doesn't protect its citizens when in fact the murder rate in the UK is way below that of the US despite us being similar type societies. Whatever we're doing we must be doing something right. The fact that there are other nations (ie Columbia and Mexico etc) where things are even worse is neither here nor there.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 04:25 PM

This means I got yer vote in November?

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 04:21 PM

Those often repeated "Chongo" jokes are always fresh, unexpected and exciting.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 03:49 PM

"In this country, if you kill someone you had better be prepared to convince a jury that you felt that your life was in immediate peril."

Stand you ground laws" are an attempt to make it easier to claim this.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 03:41 PM

Just wait till Chongo gets elected. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 03:28 PM

Let's see. The Small Arms survey (SmallArmsSurvey.org) reports:

Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Germany, Italy, and the United States routinely report annual exports of small arms, light weapons, their parts, accessories, and ammunition worth USD 100 million or more. The Small Arms Survey estimates that China and the Russian Federation also routinely achieve this level of activity although Beijing and Moscow do not report doing so. In 2007, customs data alone indicated that these eight countries, along with Canada, Switzerland, Turkey, and the United Kingdom, exceeded USD 100 million in exports.

and

An analysis of customs data suggests that for the period 2001 to 2007 five countries—Canada, France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, and the United States—routinely imported small arms, light weapons, their parts, accessories, and ammunition worth USD 100 million or more per year. Customs data also suggests that eight additional countries imported at least USD 100 million or more in at least one year during this seven-year period: Australia, Cyprus, Egypt, Japan, the Netherlands, South Korea, Spain, and the United Kingdom. A review of customs data shows that Italy routinely imported more than USD 50 million per year from 2001 to 2007.

I am not in any way saying that the US is blameless -- far from it! But it's not the only player, even if it is the biggest (and that doesn't thrill me either).

The United States is by far the biggest documented importer of small arms. During the seven-year period under review, US imports ranged from USD 571 million (in 2002) to more than USD 1 billion (in 2007). The next-largest recorded importer was Germany, averaging USD 110 million. The largest single-year value recorded for imports by a country other than the United States during this seven-year period was USD 261 million by Saudi Arabia (in 2001).

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 02:24 PM

Yeh and I bet the USA is better than Nigeria.

Rap, for heaven's sake - you can't compare yourself to the worst places in the world. Raise the bar.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 01:47 PM

I wondered how long it would take to figure that out. It was exactly my point.

Now compare the US with Mexico (10/100k), Colombia (27.1), Brazil (18.1), Argentina (3), Venezuela (39). The UN report says that homicides by firearm, mostly of males under 30, is at crisis levels.

I do not deny the figures or that they are atrocious. But let's also keep them in perspective when discussing this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 12:32 PM

"the US rate of homicide by firearms was 3 per 100,000 people. This was exactly the same as that of Lichtenstein!! "

Just a brief google shows that this statement is more than complacent - it is completely self delusional. The population of Liechtenstein is only 36,000 people. there were no murders in Liechtenstein in 2002. Hence it was the safest country on earth. If there was one murder last year then it comes in at about 3 per 100,000 people. Lies, damn lies and statistics springs to mind. Common sense says you can't compare the stats of a tiny statelet to a massive country of many millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 12:12 PM

"the US rate of homicide by firearms was 3 per 100,000 people. This was exactly the same as that of Lichtenstein!!"

I've no idea about Lichtenstein but you do realise that the rate you mention is horrendous! And that is only firearm deaths! Scotland's rate for total murders is 1 per 54,123. Your own figure states than it is 1 per 33,333 in the States for firearms alone. Do you think that is good? Scotland's rate is also down about 30% from a decade or so ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 11:45 AM

What is it makes Scots homicidal?
The porridge or Maries Song Bridal
But with claymores and dirks
They'll give you the works
So sharp objects, you'd better just hide all.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 11:31 AM

Al ~~ What exactly is your directional problem? Do you suffer the same puzzlement about East Midlands & West Midlands?

Regards
~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 10:51 AM

According to official US sources the number of people murdered by gun in the US has fallen from 10,158 in 2005, to 8,775 in 2010.

That doesn't seem to be much of an improvement, after all, we're not talking about pizzas or car production. THIS IS ABOUT FATHERS, MOTHERS, BROTHERS AND SISTERS.......PEOPLE!

In 2010, out of a total of 12,996 murdered people, 8,775 were shot to death. That is 67.5% of the total murders.

Yes, guns are indeed a good thing, if you're into compulsory population control.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 10:16 AM

According to the last UN crime statistics I saw (yesterday!), the US rate of homicide by firearms was 3 per 100,000 people. This was exactly the same as that of Lichtenstein!! The statistics were for 2010; the US rate has been falling since 1998, I can't speak to Lichtenstein.