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Children and religion

Alan Day 05 Oct 06 - 04:12 AM
John MacKenzie 05 Oct 06 - 04:26 AM
skipy 05 Oct 06 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Jon 05 Oct 06 - 04:59 AM
George Papavgeris 05 Oct 06 - 05:00 AM
Dave Hanson 05 Oct 06 - 05:07 AM
Paul Burke 05 Oct 06 - 05:09 AM
Wolfgang 05 Oct 06 - 05:26 AM
skipy 05 Oct 06 - 05:53 AM
GUEST 05 Oct 06 - 06:04 AM
Grab 05 Oct 06 - 08:11 AM
wysiwyg 05 Oct 06 - 08:22 AM
BuckMulligan 05 Oct 06 - 08:28 AM
Emma B 05 Oct 06 - 08:30 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 05 Oct 06 - 08:35 AM
skipy 05 Oct 06 - 08:49 AM
Wesley S 05 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM
BuckMulligan 05 Oct 06 - 09:09 AM
Big Mick 05 Oct 06 - 09:10 AM
Wesley S 05 Oct 06 - 09:20 AM
Wolfgang 05 Oct 06 - 11:20 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 05 Oct 06 - 11:32 AM
Alan Day 05 Oct 06 - 11:40 AM
Big Mick 05 Oct 06 - 11:48 AM
Peace 05 Oct 06 - 11:52 AM
Scoville 05 Oct 06 - 12:04 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 05 Oct 06 - 12:08 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM
Big Mick 05 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 01:16 PM
Big Mick 05 Oct 06 - 01:31 PM
George Papavgeris 05 Oct 06 - 01:38 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 01:46 PM
Emma B 05 Oct 06 - 01:53 PM
George Papavgeris 05 Oct 06 - 01:59 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 02:00 PM
George Papavgeris 05 Oct 06 - 02:06 PM
Big Mick 05 Oct 06 - 02:12 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 02:15 PM
George Papavgeris 05 Oct 06 - 02:17 PM
Wesley S 05 Oct 06 - 02:17 PM
Big Mick 05 Oct 06 - 02:20 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM
Big Mick 05 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 02:22 PM
George Papavgeris 05 Oct 06 - 02:24 PM
Big Mick 05 Oct 06 - 02:35 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 02:35 PM
MMario 05 Oct 06 - 02:35 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Oct 06 - 02:39 PM
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Subject: Children and religion
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:12 AM

I recently had a visit from a Jehova's Witness, nothing unusual about that, but with him was a little girl of about five.
As adults we have the opportunity to choose our religion or not choose it.We can also choose the religion that meets our requirements.
Children in religious homes do not get this choice, the parents religion is rammed down their throats almost as soon as they can speak,these poor kids are brainwashed from an early age. I respect that children should be brought up to respect good and evil,but why should they not have a chance to choose or not to choose their religion when they are older and more fully understand the choices available to them.
Al


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:26 AM

I might be tempted to report said knocker of doors to the social services, that's no way to treat a child, dragging her around with you while you knock on people's doorsteps, and harangue them with your pet obsession. Not only that but the uncouth response that JW receive at some doors is not fit for a child's ears.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: skipy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:51 AM

They make me puke, as do all funderMENTALists!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:59 AM

Children in religious homes do not get this choice, the parents religion is rammed down their throats almost as soon as they can speak,these poor kids are brainwashed from an early age.

I'd say the same for strongly athiest parents whose children might be brainwashed from an early age there is no god.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:00 AM

Two issues here. First, the general one about children having choice of religion - and I can only speak from a Christian (mainly Orthodox) perspective of course. A Christian believes that having been admitted into the Church pretty much guarantees passage to the "better place" provided you have not committed serious sins. In the case of children, who have had limited opportunities to sin yet, this means that in the case of accidental or otherwise early death, being "in the Church" is a guarantee of Heaven in itself (I am using the term "admitted into the Church" on purpose here - in fact for some dogmas like RC or Orthodoxy one has to be actually baptised, and thereafter tutored by your Godparents up to adulthood).

In centuries past, when child mortality was much higher, this "guarantee" was a major factor in parents choosing to indoctrinate their children - and have them baptised - early. The reasons have largely elapsed now of course, but the practice remains.

Of course, even I managed to loook cute at 8 months old being immersed into the fond and displayed starkers for all to see before being anointed with oil on all (ALL) my importants parts while bawling my heart out. The imagery of doing the same as a teenager or older doesn't bear thinking! (OK, you do have late converts of course, and they are dressed in a white robe while being immersed, but still...).

But the issue of the JWs dragging a kid along on their door-to-door canvassing is something else altogether. This is not part of the child's indoctrination or religious education; the child is there simply to impress the adults opening the door; it is a selling technique, and the child is being EXPLOITED. Pure and simple.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:07 AM

These gits take children along in the belief that people won't tell them to fuck off in the presence of chidren.


eric


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:09 AM

Parents inevitably pass on their beliefs to their children, it's difficult to imagine a way of NOT doing so. The important thing is that any society that belives in choice must provide a way by which they can learn to make that choice later in life.

Religions have always attempted to apply (to a geater or lesser extent) emotional pressure on young people not to apostatise- this varies from parental disapproval, through rejection by their birth culture, to in some cases attempted or successful murder.

It must be made clear to the leaders of organised belief systems that any pressure beyond the mildest is unacceptable. How to get that across in the presnt climate of confrontation is another matter.

In that context, I am very grateful to my Catholic parents, who expressed only their personal disapproval and fears for our eternal future, when almost all their offspring opted for a humanist/ atheist belief. It may have comforted them that we have largely retained the ethical and moral framework which they belived derived from religion, and which we believe derives from a rational view of human society.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:26 AM

I'm a strongly atheist parent (and my wife as well), but we send our daughter to religious instruction (liberal protestant) for we think that, firstly, a background of ethics does her well (I find close to nothing wrong with a liberal Christian ethic) and, secondly, that the stories of the Bible are a part of our cultural heritage like the brothers Grimm tales. When she asked me if there is a God, I told her the truth, namely that there are people who believe there is one and that there are people who don't believe there is one and that her parents don't believe there is one. She quickly said that she also does not believe in God and I told her that she should wait with such a pronouncement until she will be much older.

I don't know what is so bad about Jehova's witnesses for they never come to my door, I also don't know how (or if) they indoctrinate their children, but at the first glance I cannot see much wrong with taking children to adult activities like watching football or going to a folk festival or going from door to door.

But I do strongly object to any permanent scars and mutilations done in the name of the parents' religion to childrens' bodies. If they want to do that as adults I don't mind.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: skipy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:53 AM

I am an atheist, throughout my service career (25 year) I stood outside churches whenever I had to go on a church parade. When Gulf war 1 came along I was the first in the Royal Air Force to get "ATHEIST" stamped on a set of tags.
However my children are free to make their own choice and I have not in any way interefered on that subject.
On the subject of f***ing JWs, my mother, father & auntie all where!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:04 AM

Checkout a great duo called "Truckstop Honeymoon". Their song "Witnessing" is hilarious.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Grab
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:11 AM

Shouldn't this be BS section...?

What kind of alternately amused and angered me was an evangelical woman dragging her kids around with her, who chose to stop outside our place and give them a major telling-off before knocking on our door. Amusing from the point of view of hypocrisy, angry from the point of view of inflicting that on kids (who clearly don't want to be there).

I don't have a problem with evangelicals doorstepping - if they want to do that, then fine. And if the kids want to participate, then again fine - I know that me and my sister went round stuffing Christian Aid envelopes through doors with my mum when I was a kid, and we thought it was good fun. But forcing them to come along when they don't want to - no way.

One point though Alan - you don't *know* that the kid was bring "brainwashed". As Wolfgang says, there's nothing wrong with taking kids to church or whatever when they're young, so long as you give them total freedom to choose their own path when they're old enough to make a decision. I know a lot of the more "fervent" churches *do* lean harder on kids, but it's not a guaranteed thing - depends on the individual church and the individual parents.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:22 AM

I took my son along leafletting apartments and subway stations for local Dems' political action. We ALL take our kids along to SOMEthing.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:28 AM

I think people with any kind of beliefs whatsoever should be prohibited from raising children. Let the little buggers wake up on their eighteenth or twenty-first birthdays and go find out everything for themselves.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:30 AM

Although christianed into the high Anglican church at infancy I was brought in the tradition of my Granmothers Evangelical Mission and "winessed" in the streets from almost as I was old enough to stand and sing in public!
I made my own decisions about organized religion in my early teens = to the sadness of my mother - but have retained the love of singing a good rousing come-all-ye song and, I hope, some of the more tolerant aspects of Christianity


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:35 AM

Thanks for your measured statement, Wolfgang. I generally avoid threads on religion these days because they rarely show any willingness to respect the beliefs of others. I think that it is natural for parents to talk about their beliefs with their children as they are growing up. After all, how can you possibly separate what you believe from how you live? I say this, talking equally about Atheists and people who believe in God. We all want our kids to find strength and meaning in those things that are most meaningful to us. By the time kids become teenagers, there often is no need for concern that they will just parrot what their parents think. More often, it's just the opposite. They reject what their parents think as being un-cool. And, it seems like the kids who are most likely to reject their parent's beliefs (whatever they are) as adults are those who've been raised in a restrictive, fundamentalist religion. I seem to know more Atheists who were raised Catholics than Catholics who were raised Catholic. I suppose it can turn out the same way in any belief structure that is excessively exclusive and restrictive. I should also add that the present day Catholic church in the United States bears faint resemblance to the church back in the 40's and 50's.

I don't find anything wrong with parents teaching their kids what they believe, or taking them to services, if they attend any. It's natural to want to share what is important in your life with your children, whether it's Mass or a Wiccan ceremony. I respect those on this thread, starting with you Wolfgang, who are confident enough to give their kids the freedom to find their own beliefs as adults.
The "doing" of that is a different matter. If you are atheist, how would you deal with your child growing up to be a nun or a priest?
I have a Jewish friend whose brother grew up to become a priest. Most of us are a lot better talking about being open-minded than doing it. I have a son who is Agnostic, and I've never criticized him for denying his belief in God. I make no attempt to "Convert" him, although I would be joyful if he turned back toward a faith that he was so enthusiastic about as a kid. But most of all, I want him to be happy. He is a very moral, spiritual young man and I am proud of him, as he is of me. We respect each other's beliefs and have no desire to change each other. That's the way it should be in families (and wouldn't it be great if it was that way in the world?)

Good on you Wolfie, and others.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: skipy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:49 AM

We have a hard core bible basher in our village, pleasant enough lady, but she knocked on my door one day last year and said " you do a lot of work for MS sufferers don't you, why don't you hire a mini bus and bring a load to the church next Sunday, we have got a visiting faith healer, he will cure them all"
'nuff said.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM

Ahhh - Mudcatters are so tolerant about everything. Except the religious beliefs of others.

It's easy Alan - if you don't like what the JW has to say - just say no thankyou and close the door.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:09 AM

It's certain practices that are in question here, not beliefs - except for the beliefs that command proselytization. Only when those beliefs include "Shove your beliefs into the face of everyone you can, including going out and finding people into whose faces to shove your beliefs," do they become intolerable.

I doubt anyone on Mudcat is the least bit intolerant of privately kept beliefs.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:10 AM

This is one of those threads that purport to be one thing, but are actually another. Buck Mulligan got it right.

This isn't about children and religion. It is about attacking religious beliefs.

Quite frankly, it is no one's business. I have every right to pass on my spiritual, religious, political, and social values to my children. It is my right, and it is none of your business, unless you can show abuse of some form. And teaching one's religious values can hardly be termed abuse. Unless you are willing to let me call teaching atheist, pagan, buddhist, or any other value system as abuse.

WYSIWYG made the point. My children have been on picket lines with me, have worked on political campaigns with me, and have gone to church with me their whole lives. I am raising them to be ethical, spiritual, politically aware, and caring individuals. And pity the person who tries to insert themselves into that process and tell me I can't. I made them, and I am responsible to see to it they become responsible citizens, as I see that to be.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:20 AM

Well said Mick.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:20 AM

If my daughter wanted to be a nun I'd remember how much I disliked my parents trying to tell my that my socialist thinking was wrong. I'd be surprised and a bit puzzled but I'd let her go that way.

(But my tolerance has limits: if she'd come home with a Neonazi boyfriend...)

Wolfgang (looking forward to hear her singing at Christmas in the church choir)


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:32 AM

You're a good man, Wolfgang. We all have our limits. What if my sons wanted to become Republicans? Or do rap?

Then we'd see how liberal I really am.. :-)

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:40 AM

If you read my posting carefully I am in no way attacking religion or the persons belief who knocked on my door.It is not a discussion about what the JW had to say,he has his beliefs and was trying to spread the word.That is not the subject of discussion, it is about trying to ram religion down childrens throats too early.Let them decide which path they want to tread when they get older.If they wish to follow their parents religous beliefs then that is fine, but at least give them the choice.
A couple nearby became born again Christians and they held prayer meetings at their house and forced their children to attend (both of whome left home)just one example of an extreme case.
Al


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:48 AM

Children in religious homes do not get this choice, the parents religion is rammed down their throats almost as soon as they can speak,these poor kids are brainwashed from an early age.

Those are your words. They clearly express your disdain for the practice of teaching ones religious convictions to ones children. There is a graphic example today, with the Amish families of Pennsylvania, USA, where the religious convictions being taught to these children will demonstrate the value of this to all. Children don't possess the ability to "make choices" in the way you suggest. They are taught the values, and beliefs of their parents. It is the way of the human condition, and it is not wrong. The other thing that your ridiculous assertion implies is that when children grow up, they will lack the ability due to this "brainwashing" to make their own determinations as to the road they will trod. There are multitudes of examples in this forum membership to prove that this is ludicrous.

Would all Mudcatters that managed to find their own path and not follow their parents religious teachings please raise their hands.

I don't mean to attack you personally, Alan Day, as I don't know you. But I find the opening premise of this thread flawed, and a thinly veiled attack on people of faith.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Peace
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:52 AM

No thank you works well.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Scoville
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:04 PM

Parents pass on their beliefs/opinions/etc. about everything on to their children. Mine saddled me with disgraceful taste in music (by some standards) by raising me on folk music.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:08 PM

Do scarecrows brainwash their children?


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM

" show abuse of some form"
All religion is abuse... cause it's all thought control and domination...

Children shouldn't be exposed to religion until their immune systems have developed enough that they can fight it off.... just like honey. (Except that kids can have honey LONG before it's safe for them to be exposed to religion)

"please raise their hands."
Right FN here, mate...


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

You make my point, CH. The point is that I shall raise my children as I see fit, and its none of your FN business. Your arrogant comments about religion just shore up your well deserved reputation.

Try reading for comprehension. My point in asking for a show of hands of those who have gone on to a different way of thinking from their parents was to demonstrate that the whole "brainwashing" bit is not so. Parents raise their kids, hopefully teach them a value system, and then the kids grow up and make choices. They find the way based on what makes sense to them.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:16 PM

It is my business when you want to try to, for instance use your blinkered belief in some invisible man in the sky to change school textbooks or such to reflect your delusions... then it abso-friggn-lootly is my business... because you're hamstringing the whole human race. Trying to drag everyone back down to your medieval level....

And I read for 'comprehension'... I 'got' what you were after... it's VERY few people who change what they're taught when very young....

Unfortunately.

The ones who do are most likley the ones who are also given antibodies to religion

Arrogant? That's rich coming from you, Mick... So rich that Bill Gates just knocked on my door begging for change....   Casue you seem to think that I'm talking about you specifically....

*singing*
"You're so vain.... You probably think this post is about you... don't you?"

Get a grip Mick.....

And while you're at it stow the personal attacks.... They are unbecoming from someone who wants this place to think of them as a good example (HA!)


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:31 PM

For what it is worth, but you will ignore it, Americans For the Separation of Church and State has a very large membership that is Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics, by and large, do not support the teaching of the creation story in public schools, and don't believe that public schools should be in the business of teaching religion, except as a comparative philosophy.

As to your comment that it's VERY few people who change what they're taught when very young...., this is just another example of the intolerant, arrogant and disrespect for others views that causes so many to dislike your posts. You see, it implies that you were able to overcome this, but most of the drones in the world can't. It implies that you see yourself as better and wiser than the rest. But you won't get this, because of your self view.

I am not trying to be anything to this place. What I will do is express an opinion. When I am wrong, I am called on it quite vociferously. As opposed to you, whom most expect will pop off with an arrogant, intolerant post on a regular basis. But enough about you and I. I will not respond to anymore discussion that falls outside of the question at hand.

No one has the right to tell me what values I raise my children with, unless they are illegal. There is nothing illegal or immoral about people living and raising there children in faith communities, ethical communities, whatever. It is an inalienable right to raise ones children with the values that we choose.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:38 PM

The unwillingness to "force" any kind of religious belief on one's children is a characteristic of the baby-boomer generation, I think. Though there were "enlightened" (by that standard) parents before, the majority of my parent's generation (including my own folks) passed on their belief system as a matter of course - whether successfully or not, that is another matter; after all, the world had changed and the stimuli different.

So I became a Greek Orthodox, though nowhere near as fervent one as my parents had been; and in adulthood I rebelled against organised Church, because I saw far too many wrongs there to reconcile with my beliefs. But I remained Christian - my own kind of Christian, a sort of humanist one.

Then I married a CofE agnostic (you should see the affidavit she had to sign to be allowed to marry in a Greek Orthodox Church), and suddenly there were these two brats asking questions about God and church and stuff. Infected by the baby-boomer principles, we avoided passing on anything other than a basic humanist belief system. But they saw other relatives being a lot closer to the Church and they kept wondering throughout their early years. And now...

My son at 18 started to grow closer to the Church himself. A lot closer than I would have preferred - but it's not my call to make. And he has chosen to teach his own two children his own belief system, along the lines that Big Mick mentions; again, it grates against my "force nothing" principles, but not my call.

And now my daughter at 21 is showing an interest too. No Orthodox church near us, but there is a Unitarian one, and intends to visit regularly, she says. I will be giving her lifts there, too.

I will never be 100% certain that my "force nothing" approach was best - I wonder if it means some sort of abdication from responsibility. My children seem to have found their own way, but I am not sure to what extent this is my doing; probably very little. Because although our belief systems clearly overlap a lot, they are not identical; there are a few small remnants of the G.O. in me that are not in them.

And I cannot help feeling a little sad about that.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:46 PM

"But enough about you and I."
Again... "Blah blah blah, but -I- get the last word"... get bent...

"I am not trying to be anything to this place."
Bull... If Max ever comes to a quick stop, all that's going to be left of you is feet.

"it implies that you were able to overcome this"
You're reading what YOU want me to say (So that you can continue to rail on about what a horrible poster I am, IMPLYING how much better YOU are than me) into what I said.... Study some sociology, Mick.... The vast majority of people in this world take what they're taught at a very young age to the grave with them (Note... I said, nor even implied, NOT A SINGLE THING about me... or even you...)

"There is nothing illegal or immoral"
I think there's a LOT that's immoral about thought control and brain washing.... If I were to ever have my way, one day it'd be illegal too.... And not just in your country, Mick.


"Americans For the Separation of Church and State"
Too bad www.au.org is down.... I'd be curious to see their numbers... Here's their wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_United


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:53 PM

Ignatius of Loyola

is said to have said "give me a child until he is Seven and I will give you the man"


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:59 PM

Out of interest, CH, where do you draw the line between "thought control and brainwashing" and plain education? Is it OK to teach a humanist belief system as opposed to a religion-based one, and why say yes to one and no to the other? You seem very certain about such delineations.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:00 PM

"teach a humanist belief system as opposed to a religion-based one"

Such as?


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:06 PM

You pulling my string, CH? I thought it was clear:

That helping people, being charitable and merciful are good; killing people, stealing and lying are bad; and all that, not out of any religious conviction, but simply because they help people and society get along.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:12 PM

George, one would have to have some kind of philosophical base, and a sense of ethics in order to comment as you have asked. It is much easier to just sit back and spew comments that prop up your self indulgent sense of self importance.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:15 PM

Not pulling your string at all, George... I just wanted to make sure I understood what you were getting at... Misunderstandings happen all too frequently in this text-only medium....

The difference?
Such a "humanist belief system" doesn't require blind faith in anything... Nor is it going to try to denigrate historical and or scientific 'fact', and try to replace it with some wishy-washy 'truth'...

It's also not going to be misogynist... Nor will it encourage that ANY human be treated as anything less than human...   nor is it going to incite people to lob firebombs through the windows of people who don't believe in one particular invisible man in the sky or other... It won't encourage people to mutilate their children....

It won't expect humans to live as something other than human.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:17 PM

One...two...


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:17 PM

Alan - I think what you are suggesting just isn't practical.I'd be interested in your views on how people should raise children and not force religion down their throats.If I go to church on Sunday - or some other day of the week - do I leave the kids at home? How old should kids be when you start to introduce these ideas to them? At 15 or 16 are they offered a few different religions of the parents choosing? Should we skip Christmas and the Easter Bunny because these kids aren't old enough to evaluate the evidence for themselves and make a critical judgement?

Just how should we expose our kids to ideas? How have you raised your kids { assuming you have some }? I'll be interested in seeing your thoughts on this.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:20 PM

OK, you have outlined what a belief system isn't, now give us some of what this same belief system is. What would your belief system say about theft? How would that be defined? It is not enough to not be about something, one must also be about certain values.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM

I'm gonna start singing this about Mick

Some Humans Ain't Human
John Prine

Some humans ain't human
Some people ain't kind
You open up their hearts
And here's what you'll find
A few frozen pizzas
Some ice cubes with hair
A broken Popsicle
You don't want to go there

Some humans ain't human
Though they walk like we do
They live and they breathe
Just to turn the old screw
They screw you when you're sleeping
They try to screw you blind
Some humans ain't human
Some people ain't kind

You might go to church
And sit down in a pew
Those humans who ain't human
Could be sittin' right next to you
They talk about your family
They talk about your clothes
When they don't know their own ass
From their own elbows

Jealousy and stupidity
Don't equal harmony
Jealousy and stupidity
Don't equal harmony

Spoken:
Have you ever noticed
When you're feeling really good
There's always a pigeon
That'll come shit on your hood

Or you're feeling your freedom
And the world's off your back
Some cowboy from Texas
Starts his own war in Iraq

Some humans ain't human
Some people ain't kind
They lie through their teeth
With their head up their behind
You open up their hearts
And here's what you'll find
Some humans ain't human
Some people ain't kind


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM

George ......... LMAO. Message received ..... LOL.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:22 PM

Outside the scope of this thread Mick.... I'm not about to sit here and type up my ism or ology....


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:24 PM

Sorry CH, my "one...two.." was in response to Big Mick's message (George with head bent and hands over the ears waiting for the bang).

Perhaps you speak from local (North American) experience. But my own Greek Orthodox origins would comply with all you have mentioned, including avoiding misogyny, mutilation and rewriting of history and science; I rebelled against the organised Church, not the belief system.

So, if I teach precisely the same things, does it matter whether I do so out of religious faith or social faith (common sense)?


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:35 PM

OK, then within the scope of this thread, absent a "Thou Shalt Not Steal", what would you teach your children about stealing? Is it a bad thing? Always? And if you have a view you are teaching that is counter to what others teach, is that brainwashing?


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:35 PM

Religion and faith are two different things....


"including avoiding misogyny"
Really? I did a quick glance around and found this here...
http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/aejt_4/Nicolaides.htm
"The Eastern Orthodox Church or Ekklesia however, remains resolute in its stance on the issue of priesthood and allows only males to become ordained as per its interpretation of the Holy Scriptures and Holy Traditions."

So how is it NOT just another "Old Boys Club"?

"I rebelled against the organised Church, not the belief system"
And how did you seperate one from the other? It's the organized Church that made up the belief system in the first place....


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: MMario
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:35 PM

Don't forget that there are Atheist fundamentalists who are every bit as obnoxiious about forcing their beliefs on others as are religious fundamentalists.

the constitution of the USA also states that Congress shall enact no law abrogating the free practice of religion - but most people forget that.


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Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:39 PM

Are we only talking about the USA here?

I certainly hope not


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