Children and religion

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:46 PM

So, by your last statement I take it that you feel it is OK for a government to outlaw free religious practices, Clinton? C'mon, lad, take a position for something instead of just lobbing grenades. Take a position on theft. Or on a government forbidding worship of deities. Stand for something so you can be held accountable for your beliefs. That is the standard you hold others to. You consistently sit back and point out how stupid others are, and how you are much brighter. I want to hear what positions you stand for, so you can be held accountable for those views.

So .... within the context of the thread .... is it OK to teach children it is wrong to steal?

In order to prevent the "brainwashing", is it OK for governments to outlaw the practice of all religions?

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:56 PM

I never said anything about not being able to hit your knees and talk to whatever delusion you want to, have I??? I don't care who you cry out to when you fall from a great height.... Or what mythology comforts you when your own mortality wakes you up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night.... That's not at ALL what we're talking about here Mick.... You're just fishing. (Like you've been taking passive-aggressive lessons from Shambles or something)

I'll give you this one little one... Is it always wrong to steal?   I don't think so...   If yer gonna steal, someday it's probably gonna bite you in the ass.... So steal or don't... It's your choice.

"I want to hear what positions you stand for"
Again, that's not what this thread is about, is it? You can take the rest of your fishing expedition and cram it.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:12 PM

Not fishing, Clinton. I just get tired of you jumping into threads and pointing out the disdain you have for others point of view. There is rarely an attempt to be part of a discussion. You simply tell us all how we should think, and then ridicule anyone who doesn't agree. Your post above shows it in spades. You refer to others deeply held beliefs as delusions. A person of intellectual depth probes the arguments, tries to understand the other side, and presents arguments to the counter. They don't purposely seek to offend and belittle. Read George P's posts for an example. But disdain and scorn is precisely what you do, and it is why Max invited you to leave.

So you think stealing is sometimes OK. Is this what you will teach your children when the time is right? What will you teach them is the distinction as to when it is OK?

Values have to have a certain amount of absolutism to them. Life will soon enough teach children the grey areas. It seems to me that a religious base, even when tempered by the views of such as Wolfgang or George, is a far better thing for kids than no training in these areas at all. No morality based training leads to situational morality.

Mick

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM

"You refer to others deeply held beliefs as delusions."
Why should your beliefs matter a tinkers cuss to me? Why should my opinion of your beliefs matter one to you???

Believing in things that are not there is the dictionary definition of delusional... You want to demonstrate that your invisible man in the sky isn't a delusion, lets see the evidence.   Oh... that's right... There isn't any... So you go right ahead and continue to line up to the All You Can Eat Blind Faith Buffet... I've had more than enough of their salt and ashes, thanks. You can even have my share.

"disdain and scorn is precisely what you do"
Only to things that are disdainful and scornful... Like blinkered religion.

"and it is why Max invited you to leave."
What the fuck ever Mick.... Again, you prove yourself nothing more than a passive aggressive wanker... Get down of your high frigg'n horse and get your tongue outa Max's ass.... Dogs do that... You're not a dog are you?

No wonder so many people have left because of you.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:44 PM

Knew there was more to you than you you usually show here Clint.
Agree with you all the way ...Reason always beats superstition.
Indoctrinating children with religion is abuse...Ake

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:46 PM

Who's "Clint"?

:-)

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: number 6
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:51 PM

I was going to post to this thread ... good subject ... but after reading what has been posted I'll refrain from pointing my view ... not going to waste energy fighting off attacks ... not over this subject.

sIx

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:53 PM

Then why post at all? Just farting up the place, #6?

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:54 PM

At least the point about some athiests being every bit as likely to brainwash there children has been demonstrated here. I was getting quite worried when my comments were met by Wolfgang's very reasonable athiest outlook and Paul's coments.

As far as I'm concerned, none of us can say with absolute certainty or offer absolute proof as to whether or not there higher powers although individuals may well have reasons to believe one way or other.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:54 PM

All I know is, when was the last time a believer started a Mudcat thread bashing atheists?

~S~

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: number 6
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:55 PM

Yup .... have to leave a 'smell' at least.

sIx

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: MMario
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:57 PM

I think it would be safe to say that the "average athiest" is more into prosyletizing then the "average theist"

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:57 PM

A shower and beer later...

CH, do you really confuse misogyny with prejudice - the Church not allowing women priests? I don't believe that you have led such a sheltered life. Anyway, that is the Church "interpreting", the "Old Boys Club" as you correctly state, not the belief system. And this was one of the reasons why I became disillusioned by the Ekklesia, but not by Orthodoxy. I found it quite easy to separate the two, as one is mainly contemporary and focuses on interpretation and the mechanics of religion, while the other is old, based on the original scriptures and focuses more on the basics of good and bad behaviour. One is people and buildings and stuff. The other one is ideas. Not that hard really.

And remember that good things can come from bad people - you can espouse the former even as you detest the latter. Even Hitler did some paintings - I don't know how good they were, but certainly better than his subsequent actions. I had a sadist for a Maths teacher once - but I still liked Maths, even as I disliked him.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:03 PM

The pope denounced Limbo today.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:04 PM

Mmario, I think it might be "correct" but it doesn't feel like it would be "safe" to say it.

I think what happens is, people come to good ole Mudcat to rip off a rant about some real-world thing, not taking into account that Mudcat is so different from the real-world wrongs one grew up with. Anybody spot anyone at the last Mudcat Gathering they attended, who was shoehorning their kids into a mold of some kind, religious or philosophical? I don't think so, but this IS definitely the place to rant or opine about the practice.

~S~

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:04 PM

Well "my" Christian upbringing taught me to love the "sinner" but not the "sin"!
However it left me terribly confused what constitued sin!

".....an it harm none" - works for me however nowadays

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:05 PM

once again the "Faith team" escape into the land of gobbledy-gook !!

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:12 PM

Try again, ake. I bet you can not explain your abnormal intolerance for another's belief.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: MMario
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:14 PM

while I will admit that I have never seen proof of the existance of a Creator - I've never seen proof of the NON-existance either.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:16 PM

Mick "No wonder so many people have left because of you".

The good thing Mick is that everytime you run off a Mudcat member at least two more new fresh faces join up just to be near Clinton's warm and bubbly personality. He's drawing folks to the Mudcat like lemmings. So numbers wise we're still going strong.

And Susan - an atheist bashing thread? Hmmmmm........

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:18 PM

My "intolerance" is not for another persons belief, but the indoctrination of children with a dangerous lunacy...Ake

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: MMario
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:21 PM

so the belief that there are things in the universe that humans cannot understand or explain is lunacy? And "dangerous" lunacy at that?

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:25 PM

I'm still having trouble understanding gravity. And I can't see it either. So it must not exist.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:26 PM

Alan Day - ALL children have various beliefs foisted upon them by their parents, whether or not the parents realize it. They (the children) may accept it all without questioning for the rest of their lives...or they may in time reject a great deal of it and form or acquire new beliefs.

It's not just a case of religious beliefs either...that's just one aspect of the matter.

People only bitch about it when they see beliefs being foisted on children which are not the same beliefs they themselves would choose to foist upon their children.

I have known more than one person who was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness, believed fully in it till a certain age...and then changed their mind about it entirely and left that religion.

So, do you think it would be nice if some children somewhere were brought up without ANY belief system at all being implanted in them by their parents...............or would it? Would it even be possible to do that when raising children? I very much doubt it. Everyone's conscious view of life embodies a whole matrix of beliefs, and there's simply no way around that, and no way they can't actively or passively pass it on to their children.

Look, it's dead simple. EVERYONE who has children teaches those children to believe in what THEY believe in (whatever the heck it may be). They do it automatically. It happens by example. Children learn by the examples they see in front of them in their own family every day. Later in life they may change their thinking...and many do. I did.

So, live with it. You have no more business bellyaching about the kids of Jehovah's Witnesses than they do bellyaching about how you're bringing up your kids....as long as no violence is done and no civil laws are being broken.

I'll say one thing for Jehovah's Witnesses. They are usually extremely responsible and nice people who make good citizens and don't break laws and commit crimes. Something to be said for that. Do I buy their religious ideas? Not in the least. But I'd rather have them for neighbours than a good many other people I've met.

Your tacit assumption is ("Well, I'm right and they're wrong. My way is better than theirs.") Uh-huh. That just happens to be their tacit assumption too. It's what drives them out to "save" people. Chauvinism all around in other words. Do what you'd like them to do and don't make that kind of assumption about other people.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:27 PM

Oh Fuck....

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:35 PM

"I've never seen proof of the NON-existance either."
That's not how 'proof' works....

"Would it even be possible to do that when raising children? I very much doubt it."
I agree... so the solution is, no more children! I'm all in favour of that! ,-)

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:36 PM

Akenaton, it is my belief that the public school system and the civil society everywhere indoctrinate children in what amounts to lunacy every day of their lives...quite without regard to organized religion. There are many forms of lunacy out there.

What do you want to do about it? Will everything finally be A-okay when everyone in the world believes exactly what you do? Or what any particular person does?

I doubt it... ;-)

Things will be A-okay, when all people decide to live and let live and stop passing stringent judgement upon others whose beliefs may differ from their own.

Never, in other words.

I accept that things will never be A-okay. It's part of life. Things aren't A-okay for animals either, so why should they be for us?

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM

No more children? ;-) Yeah, that would solve the problem after awhile. I'm doing my bit in that respect, Clinton, and I gather you are too.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:40 PM

Sorry LH that was a reponse to Wesley who obviously have much interest in science.

But you are wrong to say that "It's not just a case of religious beliefs either...that's just one aspect of the matter."
This thread is specifically about the involvement of young children in organised religion.

Of course no one could object to parents teaching their children, as long as it was not harmful to them.
The point in question must be whether indoctrination of children with organised religion..full of exclusivity and hatred as it is, is harmful to the mind of an innocent child ...Ake

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:48 PM

Isn't that the nub of it then, ake? Who gets to make the determination as to what is harmful? I say that the values I teach my children, and the values that I ask them to learn are positive. You say they are negative. Who gets to choose? I do. They are my children. I will raise them as I see fit. For you to change that dynamic you will have to prove that I am an unfit parent for teaching those values.

I repeat. The values I raise my children with are mine to choose.
And you are as strident in your atheism as you accuse me of being in my beliefs. You talk about exlusion in the church as you talk of excluding me from teaching my children my beliefs. I believe that is called intolerance, as well.

Mick

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:49 PM

Well, I sort of both agree...and disagree, Ake. At the same time. That is to say, I've seen children who were brought up very badly by parents in a given religion...in that they learned various forms of intolerance, prejudice, fear, guilt, etc. And I've seen children who were brought up very well by parents in the very same religion, in that they learned good morality, kindness, honesty, responsibility and a good attitude toward other people and society!

So where does that leave us?

I submit that the religion itself is not the problem at all. It, like any tool, may be used for good or for evil. The problem is whether parents use that religion to teach a bad attitude or a good one. The potential for both is there.

You could say that about any belief system. Nationalism, for example....

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:51 PM

"I say that the values I teach my children"
You really need to take everything personally don't you??? Here's a shock for ya... we're not talking about ANYONE specifically....

grok?

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:53 PM

Shit. And here I thought we were talking about Woody Allen. I was almost sure of it.

Well, back to the old drawing board... ;-)

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:55 PM

A few home truths for the "faith team".
Religion is not about stars, shepherds, camels and little tiny babies.

It is about torn limbs and bloodspattered cars in Iraq.
Murdered Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.
Young Arab children churned under the tracks of Israeli tanks.
Jews massacred as they sit at their morning coffee.

"Oh come all ye faithfull".....Ake

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

Thanks, Mom and Dad, for raising me with knowledge and nothing forced, letting me make up my own mind as to what I believe in. Count me as one who did not continue with the mostly Christian based way I was raised.

How can children choose if they are not taught anything to choose from? My kids were raised knowing about Christianity, Buddhism, Native American beliefs, etc. One of them has read the Koran. Another has chosen Buddhism. Regardless they have my support.

But, again, how can a child choose if they have no knowledge? I believe a parent is charged with giving their children a foundation on which to base their lives, whether it be religious, spiritual, or not.

I agree with others concerning the JW...a simple "no thanks" will do.

kat

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:01 PM

One needs to make the distinction I think between teaching and indoctrinating....

Mick, for example, I suspect TEACHES his children (Just to be specific)

Jesus Camp The Movie appears to be closer to indoctrination, by way of example...

There's probably a lot of grey area (If not a lot of grey matter) between the two.....

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

Actually Ake - that is one aspect of religion - or should I say the human condition. Tonight I'll be playing a benifit concert at our church to benifit the mission that we built. Here is a partial list of what goes on there:

Services Provided

    The Mission provides services and referral assistance three days a week to the homeless, low income families, and people in transition and crisis.

Homeless Services:

Sack lunches

Clothing / Hygiene Kits

Christmas Chili Lunches

Food Bank: Grocery assistance is provided every three months to low-income families

Clothing Bank: Clothing assistance is provided monthly to low-income families and the homeless, in addition to winter coats and blankets

Infant Formula Program:

Formula and baby food for infants up to one year of age

Clothing

W.I.C. referrals

Assistance with special formula requirements

¨    Other Services:

·   Emergency financial assistance

·   Job placement counseling

·   Health and nutritional counseling

·   Budget and other training workshops

·   Thanksgiving Basket Program -providing the needy with supplies and ingredients for preparation of complete Thanksgiving meals

·   Christmas teddy bears to Mission clients and other community children

Ake - your reality is correct. So is mine.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:04 PM

DANGIT...

I shoulda said "There's probably a lot of gradation (If not a lot of grey matter) between the two"

It's much cleverer

Heh

*Stupid noneditable messageboard*

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:10 PM

Ake, you're picking and choosing examples based only on a prior agenda. You're cherry-picking.

Religion is also responsible for all the positive moral concepts that underly our entire system of civil laws...without which you could not have a coherently functioning society at all. They all originated in the teachings of the major religions.

The examples you gave...

" torn limbs and bloodspattered cars in Iraq.
Murdered Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.
Young Arab children churned under the tracks of Israeli tanks.
Jews massacred as they sit at their morning coffee."

...can be linked to religion, no doubt. They can also be more directly linked in most cases to the interplay of huge competitive financial and political forces as they attempt to control areas of land and strategic resources, dominate groups of people, and build empires. Grand imperialism, in other words, cynically using religion as a very handy and provocative tool to get people whipped up emotionally so they'll go out and kill other people, enabling imperial designs to go forward.

The fighting in the Middle East is mainly about oil. Religion is used to motivate the fighters.

Empire is the real reason for the bloodshed. Religion is the excuse.

Pot Pot and Mao and Stalin killed millions of their own people...in the name of atheism. What will you do with that example?

Not quote it, I suppose... ;-)

Religion is just as handy for achieving good or evil purposes as is any other social concept. It is not good or evil in itself. It is made good or evil by the consciousness and purposes of the people who use it.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:17 PM

Jesus Camp, by the way, is absolutely horrifying. I can hardly imagine religious indoctrination more deluded and potentially dangerous than that. They're preparing those kids to go out and fight a religious war...just the way the most extreme Muslims have done in preparing young people for terrorist attacks.

If I were in government, I would watch them very carefully. They're not breaking any laws that I know of. Not right now. But I would watch them, and be ready to move fast when and if they do.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:24 PM

Wesley...The services you provide are laudible, but have little in common with the aims of Organised Religion which seem to me designed to conserve power in the hands of the people who run the business.
Whether it be Fundamentalist Christains in America, Bush being a typical example, or Mullahs in the Middle East.

The one most important point taught by the "People of Faith" is that "we are different and we are right".

Here in the UK we have the abomination known as "Faith Schools"
Some say that Faith schools don't preach religious hatred, but they do implant and foster in childrens minds that they are different...and children are not different, they are made different by the shite we teach them.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:25 PM

Both of my daughters have not been introduced to religion. They have not been baptised. They are 11 and 15.
Its up to them to make their minds up.

They have been taught morality which to me is more important. They are well mannered and are a credit to us.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:34 PM

Ake - You are assuming that all people of faith are the same. They're not. If you're not reasonable enough to admit that how can we hope to have an understanding? It sounds like your mind is closed already. Are all athiests alike? Of course not. It's time for you to start looking at people as individuals.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:34 PM

"I think it would be safe to say that the "average athiest" is more into prosyletizing then the "average theist"

Which would be incredibly close-minded, ignorant, and just plain offends me. Where did that bit of prejudice come from!? I suspect the average atheist avoids getting involved in disucssions like this, so you won't even know they're there. This one thinks this war is idiotic, assinine, annoying and something people with serious inadequacy issues keep getting involved in.

I was raised a Methodist. I'm glad of it, since my church was one that encouraged questions. I asked, I learned, and I came to different conclusions than others. I hid these for years, MMario, because to a lot of people, an atheist is an immoral person. I still avoid talking about my own beliefs because I'm afraid religious people will think I don't like them or respect them for their beliefs. I've had friends who were Christians of different sorts, Wiccans, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, New-Agers (?), agnostics, atheists, and probaby some I can't think of right now.

What matters is how people act towards me and others. WHY they act that way, where the GOOD comes from, doesn't matter.

I suspect the majority of posters in this thread should just find a ruler, whip 'em out and get it the hell over with.

As for doorknockers bringing their kids, it sounds like they use them as human shields, thinking people will act nicer if there's a kid there. They don't come to my house anymore. They were here once, and I told them I wasn't interested, talked to them nicely... for almost an hour. They had no kids with them, but it was winter, and their car was running.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: GUEST,Orren Wilcox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:34 PM

As the first openly declared atheists in my small rural community, I and my family are proud to say that "we are different and we are right"! We don't preach hatred, we just say that anyone who believes in God is obviously a halfwit braindead idiot with no more sense than a f*cking drunk dog, and we hope they and their kind all die off soon because the weird shit they believe in is totally ridiculous.

I am launching a legal action against all levels of government for doing offensive things like...

Swearing on the Bible in court!

Putting the word "God" on money!

Putting the word "God" on national monuments (all of which must be either torn down or altered)

And other horrible stuff like that.

I am disgusted by people praying in church or at home and saying things like "Oh, my God!" when they see a traffic accident happen or are having sex. It must be stopped.

I am going to devote the rest of my life to rooting out these hateful religious fanatics until society has been purged of them and rendered pure.

Please send money. I need help to stop all the religious evil in this land. I can't do it all alone.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:35 PM

Thats just my point LH.
Without the motivators and manipulators, Religion would by now have become a small force for good, like a benevolent form of therapy :0)

Unfortunately in the real world it has become a very great force for evil, and as such should not be taught to our children.,..Ake

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:40 PM

I agree that the motivators and manipulators are the real problem, Ake.

Now let me ask you this. Can religion be used in good and positive ways? Is it used in those ways by many people?

If so, why would your be attack on religion, per se?

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:43 PM

"Wesley...The services you provide are laudible, but have little in common with the aims of Organised Religion"

You were right about one thing Ake - we're not an organized religion - we're Methodists. Ever been to one of our commitee meetings?

But if someone in our church gets sick we can be over to their house with a 5 course dinner in minutes. It would make your head spin.

Please try to keep an open mind. You have a lot to learn about organized religions.

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:56 PM

And you have a lot to learn about "gravity".

You keep using the phrase "keep an open mind"...Wouldn't that be an oxymoron when applied to one of the "faith team".

Subject: RE: Children and religion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:00 PM

LH...Spirituality can be used in positive ways

Organised religion, based on myths, superstition and exclusion cannot...Ake