Tech: Atomic clock programs

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: eddie1
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:10 AM

None of the suggested programmes are accurate enough. What we need is a clock which is accurate to within +/- 1 nynysecond per day!
(Nynysecond, the shortest measurable length of time, is the elapsed time in New York between the lights turning green and the taxi driver behind you sounding his horn!)
Me, I use an hourglass but I don't always remember to turn it over.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 10:17 PM

A long time ago I downloaded a free program from NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) which does the trick beautifully.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:38 PM

Here's another clock program... it looks like a very nice setup... http://www.gregorybraun.com/WebTime.html

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:28 PM

The usual case of "goes wildly out" for PC clocks is the sudden loss of exactly 60 seconds per minute: i.e. your battery's dead and the clock stopped. Now "clock instablility" on that order of magnitude can actually interfere with a lot of good things one expects from a PC.

But I will confess to checking the 'puter clock when I need to reset all the house timers after a power drop. I have an old multiband radio that I usually leave set on WWV for "close checks" - sort of out of nostalgia for pre-binary days; but for some reason it seems reception is always really bad just after the power comes back up.

Those who have cell phones may be aware that many of them default to "adjust the time of day" off the 'phone system sync clock; but even Mickeysoft warns that "phone time ain't internet time." If your cell phone time synchronizes periodically, it's probably good enough for an initial reset of your PC clock in an emergency, but one shouldn't worry if the synchronized PC time and synchronized cell phone times are a minute or so out of sync with each other.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 08:01 PM

Aye John. For me, my biggest single need (or perhaps even desire) is to provide a reasonable indication of when a post was made to say folkinfo. Milisecond margins or nanosecond margins are meaningless to anything I do and while ntp (and nttpd) may do more, I don't need to...

For my purposes, it is more of a safety net in case the PC clock went wildy out.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:43 PM

I am happy when I know what day it is.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:24 PM

when I was in Win98, I had a different program which told me the offset between my clock and the atomic clock, and asked me if I wanted it corrected now.
As I remember it only drifted a few seconds a week, so once a month or so, I'd correct it. Now, it happens automatically every morning, so I'm not sure exactly how much it needs to correct, but I do know I'm within a second or so all the time...which allows me to re-set clocks exactly in case of a power failure, and to know exactly when to watch for the news.... (Programs like NBC news generally hit the hour VERY precisely).

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:48 PM

I've only barely started to look at what's actually "significant" with respect to clocking, but it appears that, with Windows and SNTP and probably with other systems using NTP or similar protocols, the actual system clock "accuracy" required for reliable network operation is on the order of +/-15 days. Within that range, your computer sends a "time stamp," the receiving server calculates an offset between its clock and yours, and the offset is sent back and forth with each message if a secure protocol is in use to assure that someone else hasn't poked their nose in. (Some commonly used secure transmission protocols do rely on stable timing.)

A proposed change to lengthen the "time stamp" will change the tolerance on how far off your computer can be to a little over +/-100 years. (They appear to be trying to accomodate those who don't know what century it is, so that people in Kansas won't be bothered with adjusting.)

Any "display clock" you may have, or may add, generally is only loosely related to your system clock that actually controls what goes on, and most display clocks don't display anything closer than the nearest second, or perhaps hundredth of a second. If your display needs correcting more frequently than about once per month to stay within the displayed bits, your internal clock is possible unstable and needs a new battery(?).

For those who actually need very accurate timing, a common setup in Windows (NT and later) checks a standard at frequent intervals, perhaps once per hour, until three or more "corrections" are within a certain small tolerance, and then automatically reverts to weekly checking. For programs of the types mentioned, setting once and checking weekly is probably more than adequate(?). You're unlikely to see a difference from using any of the secondary sites vs. going directly to nist or higher tier ones.

If someone has an actual requirement for more accurate time settings that somehow relates to reliable operation other than for "secondary time standard servers," perhaps, it would be interesting to know what it might be; but for "knowing what time it is" for ordinary communications one doesn't really need, and can't use, nanoseconds.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: mrdux
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:31 PM

richard --

about time similarly allows you to specify how often it synchs with any or all of three atomic clocks (nist, nasa and U.S. Naval Observatory).

michael

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:51 AM

Richard Bridge---the World Time program I mentioned has settings that will let you specify exactly how long between synch...from 1 minute to 24 hours...plus manual synchs any other time you wish! Plus it will cycle between a list of time servers until it finds one 'online'...or you can just specify one you trust. It will play sounds, or be quiet. It will allow you to specify the display format for time...etc...etc.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:34 AM

Glad it helped.

-------
I've just had a quick look as using built in Windows functionality to work as an NTP client. It seems as if timeserv is a dated component from the NT resource pack. MS offers w32time.exe as a download (if needed).

this aritcle gives a brief outline of how to set things up. It can involve editing the registry though.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:00 AM

Thank you Jon, that was the one I have used before!

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:02 AM

I don't really see the point in that.

I haven't looked at the others but I don't really see what you have got against Dimension4 I linked to. It will sync on an Internet connection and sync to a time interval of your choice.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:09 AM

Atomic clock sync synchronises only once a day, Bassic.

I'm looking for a program that synchronises every time I open my browser. If it would do it every time I picked up POP3 mail or sent SMTP mail it would be better still

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Bassic
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 07:48 PM

I use this

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: gnomad
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:54 PM

Not what you were seeking, but a way to cheer up time-telling, sort of related? Human Clock

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 02:41 AM

I say - It's About Time!

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: mrdux
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 10:28 PM

i've been using About Time for years. always works, small footprint and free.

About Time

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:27 PM

Sorry, botched the clickie. Try
NistTime

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:21 PM

The utility >NistTime has worked a treat for me for years. Can be set up to run automatically or manually. Its available for downoad at several other sites easily findable by searching.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:06 PM

no, silly...you wrap the candle in asbestos cloth!

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:13 PM

Won't the candle melt in the oven?

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:01 PM

Thanks for the tip, Bill. I'll add two minutes a pound.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:56 PM

if the bird squawks when you insert the candle, you may need to give it a little extra time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:35 PM

"The core of the atomic clock is a microwave cavity containing the ionized gas, a tunable microwave radio oscillator, and a feedback loop which is used to adjust the oscillator to the exact frequency of the absorption characteristic defined by the behavior of the individual atoms."

Well, if I'd known THAT two hours ago I would have jimmied one together and the state of the turkey would be no problem. It's like this: stick a candle in the bird, and light the candle. When the candle burns down, and the feathers catch fire, the turkey is done.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:31 PM

"National standards agencies maintain an accuracy of 10-9 seconds per day"

I don't know if that will meet my requirements. I am cooking a turkey right now and want to know when to take it out of the oven. This could cause the bird to be slightly underdone, and then I will no doubt be hearing from the Duchess or her valet.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:06 PM

I simply don't care.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:04 PM

And John, at a quick glance, TimeServ looks to be a Win only program. I'm fairly sure ntpd (the NTP daemon) is the std. in the UNIX/Linux world.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:56 PM

I have used World Time for years. It goes way beyond just synching, as it provides displayable clocks from various time zones..(YOUR choices)...and a world map with distances..etc...(and a timer that shows time since OR to, an event..in years, weeks, months, seconds...it is now 2473.77 days since Y2K, Jan 1, 2000)

If all you want is the time signal, use one of the smaller ones, but if you might want the extras, check it out.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:49 PM

I think that's Simple Network Timing Protocol

Yes, John apparently it is a simplified form of NTP...

See here.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:12 PM

From what I can tell, all the NT based Windows programs, which includes Win2K, are designed to automatically sync with your network server, although it gets rather complex using the built-ins to choose which server is your timesource. The expectation is that you'll have a "primary time standard" server on your network that will use the same features to sync with one of the international time servers, and pass the sync on to others on your WAN/LAN. The timing is done via the SNTP (I think that's Simple Network Timing Protocol?) setup.

Timeserve appears to be a standard network function, so it shouldn't be specific to, or limited to, Windows.

Microsoft has an article (ID 216734) that describes how to set up a Win2K master timeserver, but I'm afraid it doesn't help me much with how to set up an individual machine.

The time.windows.com site is considered a "second-level time standard site" and there are quite a number of first-level sites you can choose from, although sync to a first-level standard isn't recommended for individual users unless you have a real need for it. Many of the first-level sites have restricted access.

Microsoft article ID 262680 gives you a list of all(?) the available primary and secondary time standard sites, should you need to pick one. It's a pretty long list.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:44 AM

On Linux, (ntpd). I would guess timeserve mentioned by John in K is the sort of Win equivilant.

I have used Dimension4 on Win boxes.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:33 AM

From the description it looks as if you will need to click on the link to get TimeSync to work.

The last one I tried was Atomic Clock Sync but it did not seem to syncronise every time I opened the browser, which was a useful feature.

It was the one before that that I have forgotten the name of...

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: gnomad
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:25 AM

TimeSync looks like it should do it. Haven't tried it myself though, as I happen to have a synchroniser built into a utilities suite already.

Subject: RE: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 03:33 AM

Windows XP. like all recent Win versions, allows you to display a clock in the System Tray at the lower right. (It's turned on by default, but someone might have turned it off, and would have to go to Control Panel and put it back.)

In WinXP only, if you double click it, a window opens that lets you make gross adjustments to date and time; but there should also be a tab there labelled "Internet Time." At that tab, you can click to put a check in the space for "automatically synchronize with internet time" and you can choose which "standards site" you want to synch to. Usually there are at least two choices, one of which is "Windows Time" (time.windows.com) and the other an NIST site (time.nist.gov).

This "synch" feature appears to be unique to WinXP, as a quick look at "her" Win2K doesn't find it.

Microsoft Using TIMESERV to Set and Synchronize Time (Article 232255) gives info on an NT utility that should be available in Win2K, although some versions and OEM packages omit it.

The article does give you the phone number of the Naval Observatory, which you might need with other programs:

For the US Naval Observatory, the values 'type=USNO' and 'Phonenumber=[phone]'

"TIMESERV" is the standard NT utility, and an alternative is mentioned:

Some non-Windows NT clients unable to run Timeserv.exe may have a time synchronization command such as NET TIME \\servername /set /y

You're probably looking for an "aftermarket" program, and I'm sorry - I don't have one handy. Someone will come ...

John

Subject: Tech: Atomic clock programs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:47 AM

Who has which atomic clock program, to make sure the clock on their computer is always right?

I used to have a really good one that synched every time I opened my browser, then I had a format C and now I can't remember what it was!