BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear

Subject: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:53 AM

Finally our worst fears have been proved correct: a rogue nation lead by an egotistical maniac has access to nucelar weapons. The state, supported by it's nuclear weapons toting satellite state is laughing in the face of world opinion and ignoring the United Nations, pursuing it's own interests at home and abroad with scant regard for human rights, moral accountability or international law. It tortures people and uses it's military and economic influence to protect it's own interests and that of it's client states, regardless of the consquences for the people who actually live there. It's belligerent leader refuses to listen to any outside influence whatsoever, and within his own country encourages a cult of personality where people cannot speak out against his lunatic foreign policies without fear of being branded traitors by the media, the mainstream of which is controlled by a wealthy sympathiser of the 'dear leader'.

Oh, and North Korea has the bomb too now.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,Ban The Bomb
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:33 AM

Maybe the other countries in the world that Nuclear Wepaons should get rid of them as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:54 AM

It might not be so funny. Masato and I are both within reach of N. K.'s bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:01 AM

By standard shipping container, ALL of us are within reach of N.K.'s bomb(s). But that is ok: A leader who would let his own people starve would NEVER think of hurting anyone...

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:36 AM

I wasn't talking about NK in my original post. That was the US I was on about. I just added the bit about NK for interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:57 AM

Subject: RE: BS: In every thread someone has to be last!
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 16 May 04 - 04:24 PM

Every day there are news reports about more deaths. Every night on TV there
are photos of death and destruction. Why are we still there?

We occupied this land, which we had to take by force, but it causes us
nothing but trouble. Why are we still there?

Many of our children go there and never come back. Why are we still there?


Their government is unstable, and they have loopy leadership. Why are we
still there?


Many of their people are uncivilized. Why are we still there?


The place is subject to natural disasters, which we are supposed to bail
them out of. Why are we still there?


There are more than 1000 religious sects, which we do not understand. Why
are we still there?


Their folkways, foods and fads are unfathomable to ordinary Americans. Why
are we still there?


We can't even secure the borders. Why are we still there?


They are billions of dollars in debt and it will cost billions more to
rebuild, which we can't afford. Why are we still there?


It is becoming clear...

















WE MUST PULL OUT OF CALIFORNIA!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 08:32 AM

But California has Oil. You can get Olive oil, Penut oil, Seseme oil......

No really, California has a perfectly good oilfield, and then someone built Los angles on top of it!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:01 AM

A leader who would let his own people starve ...

Right you are- check on the amount of poor folks without adequate food in the U.S. of A. and how that number has vastly increased under the BuShite Junta.

Not to mention adequate housing, education, medical care.........

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:03 AM

South Korea, China, Japan, Russia, Taiwan, and the US lie within easy range of a North Korean nuclear weapon -- and these are just the major and fairly-major powers.

Let's not forget the other countries, such as Mongolia and the Philipines, the countries of Oceania....

Do you seriously think that they are going to let DPRK have nukes that could be used or shipped to other countries? If the UN doesn't move quickly, other countries will.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:04 AM

Yeah, I think most people will have got that stigweard. But it was probably as well to point it out for those with an irony deficit.

As for California - well, the USA wanted the lebensraum didn't it? That made everything all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:10 AM

UN meets at 09:30, Bush to speak at 09:45 .

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:14 AM

Tony Blair to rubberstamp at 09:46.

If the US Army in ROK isn't at Defcon 2 (at least) it should be. DPRK is one bunch that scares the hell out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 09:53 AM

US Army is the one that scares me.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 10:04 AM

California came into the Union as a free, not a slave, state. Given the way the political balance was shifting all the time before the Civil War, if anybody feels that is not significant, he should do some more reading in US history.

Also, as I recall, the British Empire was expanding at the same time. Was that also Lebensraum?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM

Greg F.

Try learning SOMETHING about what you are talking about before jumping on the US.



"North Korea, one of the world's most centrally planned and isolated economies, faces desperate economic conditions. Industrial capital stock is nearly beyond repair as a result of years of underinvestment and shortages of spare parts. Industrial and power output have declined in parallel. Despite an increased harvest in 2005 because of more stable weather conditions, fertilizer assistance from South Korea, and an extraordinary mobilization of the population to help with agricultural production, the nation has suffered its 11th year of food shortages because of on-going systemic problems, including a lack of arable land, collective farming practices, and chronic shortages of tractors and fuel. Massive international food aid deliveries have allowed the people of North Korea to escape mass starvation since famine threatened in 1995, but the population continues to suffer from prolonged malnutrition and poor living conditions. Large-scale military spending eats up resources needed for investment and civilian consumption. In 2004, the regime formalized an arrangement whereby private "farmers markets" were allowed to begin selling a wider range of goods. It also permitted some private farming on an experimental basis in an effort to boost agricultural output. In October 2005, the regime reversed some of these policies by forbidding private sales of grains and reinstituting a centralized food rationing system. In December 2005, the regime confirmed that it intended to carry out earlier threats to terminate all international humanitarian assistance operations in the DPRK (calling instead for developmental assistance only) and to restrict the activities of international and non-governmental aid organizations such as the World Food Program. Firm political control remains the Communist government's overriding concern, which will likely inhibit the loosening of economic regulations. "






Famine Kills up to 3.5 million in the North

North Korea is so badly run that there is insufficient food for many of the population and starvation has been commonplace during the last ten years. Noland, Robinson and Wang in their study stated that "North Korea is now into its eighth year of economic decline. It has been facing food shortages at least since the early 1990s, and is experiencing a famine of unknown severity. US Congressional staffers who visited the country concluded that from 1995 to 1998 between 900,000 and 2.4 million people had died from starvation or hunger-related illnesses with deaths peaking in 1997 (Kirk 1998). Non-governmental organizations, extrapolating from interviews with refugees in China and observations on the ground, have produced estimates of famine-related deaths on the order of 2.8-3.5 million."

"As the UN Commission on Human Rights discusses the human rights situation in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Amnesty International today expressed its concerns about continuing serious human rights violations in the country and the lack of effective action to reduce widespread malnutrition among the population.

Amnesty International's long-standing concerns about human rights violations in North Korea include the use of torture and the death penalty, arbitrary detention and imprisonment, inhumane prison conditions and the near-total suppression of fundamental freedoms, including freedom of expression and movement.

While these concerns are long-standing, in recent years many human rights abuses in North Korea have been linked directly or indirectly to the famine and acute food shortages which have affected the country since the mid-1990s. These have led to widespread malnutrition among the population and to the movement of hundreds of thousands of people in search of food - some across the border with China - many of whom have become the victims of human rights violations as a result of their search for food and survival.

In this context, Amnesty International believes that guaranteeing equitable distribution of food to all without discrimination is a key priority which the North Korean government must address urgently, in line with its international obligations, with appropriate assistance from the international community.The government must also introduce other measures to immediately put an end to other serious human rights abuses, such as torture and summary and arbitrary executions.

Freedom from hunger and malnutrition

North Korea continues to rely on international aid to feed its population, but many people in the country are suffering from hunger and malnutrition. According to a study published last year by the Food and Agricultural Organization, 13 million people in North Korea -- over half of the population -- suffered from malnutrition. Aid agencies have estimated that up to two million people have died since the mid-1990s as a result of acute food shortages caused by natural disasters and economic mismanagement. Several million children suffer from chronic malnutrition, impairing their physical and mental development. Many people in the country also lack adequate medical care due to lack of medical personnel and supplies. "

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA240022003?open&of=ENG-PRK

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 10:45 AM

No shit, Bruce.

Now, about the situation in the US......?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 10:54 AM

Greg F.

***********
North Korea- Total Pop. 23,113,019 (July 2006 est.)

13 million suffering from malnutrition

estimates of famine-related deaths on the order of 2.8-3.5 million.


***********

United States- 298,444,215 (July 2006 est.)


Care to find the 150+ million US citizens suffering from malnutrition, of the 30+million dead of starvation in the last decade or so?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 10:55 AM

No shit, Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:00 AM

California came into the Union as a free, not a slave, state.

Eventually,in 1850, Ron. But it was originally siezed -along with New Mexico & parts of present day Utah, Nevada, Colorado, and Arizona- in 1848 as a result of U.S. aggression in the Mexican War- a war primarily instigated by Pres. Polk (a Southern sympathizer) at the behest and in the interest of the Slaveocracy.

Recall also the "Republic of Texas" was created because Mexico had outlawed slavery...

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:13 AM

Gotcha, Bruce.

Because N.Korea is worse, U.S. must be AOK! That's the kind of elementary-school logic (But Johnny Did It First!!!) that's got the U.S. in its current international situation.

And the Right rants about "fuzzy-minded liberals"

ROFL!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:18 AM

GOTCH, Greg F.

Because the US has problems, we should let other people starve when they need not.

Because the US has problems, we should let other people threaten civilization.


And the Left talks about "caring"


ROTFLMAO

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:22 AM

BTW, unles YOU claim perfection, by YOUR standards you have no reason to criticize.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:25 AM

Because the US has problems, we should let other people starve when they need not.

Because the US has problems, we should let other people threaten civilization.

Your words, not mine, Bruce. If you believe that, not much I can do to change your mind.

Now, about the situation in the U.S.?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

Greg F,

YOU are the one proposing that.


"Because N.Korea is worse, U.S. must be AOK!"

Oh, I see. You think that the US must be ok!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:27 AM

Absolutely right, Greg. That's why I think the race for worst president in US history is between Polk and Bush--both started unnecessary wars, by choice, for bad reasons.

Bush probably takes the prize however--his wasn't even successful.

And the point about Lebensraum applying as much to the British Empire as to the US still holds.

You could defend the proposition that the American colonies' foundation itself was partly a British expression of the Lebensraum imperative.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:30 AM

And your statement about Texas is partly true--but an oversimplification.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:46 AM

It's amazing how fast--and far--a thread can drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 11:57 AM

The only viable method that NKorea can deliver a nuclear weapon is with one of its 48 submarines.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 12:15 PM

Also, as I recall, the British Empire was expanding at the same time. Was that also Lebensraum

Of course it was. And good riddance now it's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:03 PM

No it wasn't. Lebebsraum has the relativly specific meaning of living space, for the nationals of the home country, gained by moving or killing the original population. The British Empire was used as a captive market for British industry, and to supply raw materiels and troops, not to provide living space.

Also it seemed a better idea at the time to turn it into Sir-Henry-Mackensie-istan than to let the French do something similar....

The British Empire wasn't made up of sints, but there's no need to make it out worse than it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

So here did the Australians come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:13 PM

And your statement about Texas is partly true--but an oversimplification.

Actually, its entirely true- as far as it goes- but is an oversimplification. ;>)   Other factors were, indeed, at work- as is always the case; no single cause for imperialism... oh, 'scuse me: "Manifest Destiny", that is.

All best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM

exactly, Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:29 PM

"moving or killing the original population"--so none of that went on in either the 13 original British colonies in North America or in Australia?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:34 PM

Greg--

And the Mexican government, as I recall, invited US colonists in--and until the population pressure of the Anglos became obvious, did not try too hard to enforce the so-called prohibition against slavery.

I don't have time to do the research now--perhaps you can confirm or deny.

But as I recall, none of the active parties comes out with clean hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:46 PM

stigweard wrote: I wasn't talking about NK in my original post. That was the US I was on about. I just added the bit about NK for interest.

Thanks for making that clear, Mister Obvious.

BTW, we don't yet have news of conclusive evidence that N Korea achieved a nuclear explosion. Apparently they have been excavating for some time in the area from which the seismic evidence was gleaned.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:03 PM

I'm Mister Obvious! I'm Mister Obvious!

Well, I wasn't sure everyone would get the joke. I mean, don't some people need it pointing out sometimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:34 PM

If you have to assume something, it's better to assume that we do know than that we don't. If somebody doesn't know, and wants to, he or she will soon say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:36 PM

"Axis of Evil goes nuclear?"

I thought that happened way back in 1945-48, when the USA and Russia got the Bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:19 PM

stigweard
When If 1st saw & read this post I was in fear. I originally thought you were talking about the tiny island empire, the Kingdom of Tonga, I'd really love to visit it some day but thank God, I was right, you were only speaking of the US instead.

Thank you

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:22 PM

"So here did the Australians come from?"

They are New Zealanders who ran away from home.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,Urbane Guerrilla
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 02:38 AM

Stig, you have demonstrated in cold print that you know nothing whatsoever of fascists, rogue states, the United States, or its Presidents. In about two posts. Quite the marvel of compactness, given the sweep of your ignorances.

If you cannot get a life, at least endeavor to get an education. Ranting against America is what stupid, low-grade totalitarian-sympathizers do, by way of demonstrating their hostility towards democracy and thus, all things that make life worth living. If you want to be on the side of the angels, be on the side of America, and against those whose besetting sin is their anti-Americanism. Our cause is humanity's cause, and ever shall be; our society is made that way. Those who tell you otherwise distort St. Francis' prayer: they seek not so much to be deluded as to delude.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 02:59 AM

"our society is made that way"

& pray tell, who made our society that way? It sure wasn't a saint named Francis

"Fascist & Rouge states, the United States or it's Presidents". Are these all one in the same or are you talking about seperate issues here? I've always had trouble finding the side of the angels & saints & could never tell who's side God was on. He's never said a word to me about politics nor policy nor to anyone that I've ever known, except for the big fella in the White House, but that goes back to the rightously ordained Kings.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,Urbane Guerrilla
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:09 AM

"Rouge" states? Hmm. Fortunate phrase in some places...

Barry, I see I am dealing with a towering intellect who either cannot spell or cannot edit. You can't expect to be taken seriously until you do both. It would help if you engaged in a little deep ratiocination while you're at it. "...rightously [sic] ordained Kings?" What mud(dle) is that?

Here's what I'll tell: I give the whole bunch of us credit for making it that way. Coming all sour because of our occasional shortcomings is uncreative, destructive, and useless. It's also unacceptably immature, to this fifty-year-old man.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Grab
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 08:40 AM

Mr Urbane, there's a difference between being "anti-American" and being "anti-American-policies".

For myself, I think America could be one of the best things to happen to the world. "Give me your poor, your huddled masses", defiance of imperial power, meritocracy rather than aristocracy, etc.. Hell of a good principle to follow. And the culture of openness and friendliness in America is (I think) second to very few.

But note that I say *could* be. In fact it's morally right in the shitter at the moment, and has been for decades, by its leaders turning their backs on the principles the nation was founded upon. "No more poor, huddled masses, we've got enough", imperial power gone wild, a few ultra-rich families with vastly outsized political control, etc.. America was founded on the belief that the statement "my country right or wrong" was untrue, but neocons today will tell you that anyone criticising American actions is an enemy of the country, which is the very core of totalitarianism.

Yeah, NK is an evil, totalitarian setup. OTOH, NK hasn't been involved in a war of aggression since the 1950s - not because it doesn't want to, but more because it doesn't have the resources. Various US administrations, for what they saw as all the right reasons, have launched a bunch of wars of aggression since then (let's see - Cuba, Vietnam and Cambodia, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq, off the top of my head, of which only two - Cuba and Afghanistan - had any possible national defence implications) and propped up or set up a bunch of evil, totalitarian setups who routinely tortured and executed people but said they'd support the US rather than the USSR (off the top of my head, Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran - wasn't that a success?! - and Iraq spring to mind).

For that reason, I (and probably others) think that what American culture says and what its leaders do foreign-policy-wise are two very different things. "Occasional" shortcomings are one thing, but this doesn't look very "occasional", now does it?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 08:51 AM

"Also, as I recall, the British Empire was expanding at the same time. Was that also Lebensraum? "

Funnily enough it probably wasn't. Most of the Empire was acquired (at first almost accidentally) to protect trade interests. Those settlers who went out are still mostly huddling (their descendants at least) on the coasts of what were relatively empty lands. Those who went to the civilised lands went as bureaucrats and ruling castes and have been pulling out for the last 50 years leaving just some institutions and the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 12:28 PM

It is quite common for once democratic and just societies to turn into hypocritical, corrupt sytems that betray everything they once stood for. It happened to Rome. It happened to Great Britain. It happened to Germany. It has happened to America.

You are mistaken, U.G., because you are just out of date, that's all. America is no longer what it once was.

And you are mistaken that people would oppose present American policies because they have a hostility toward democracy! Good lord! Virtually nobody has a hostility toward real democracy. I've met people from many parts of the world, and they all long for real democracy. America does not give them real democracy. America gives them war, bombs, puppet governments, death squads, fear, destruction, chaos, and domination of their lands by a few huge corporate entities...mostly for the sake of controlling oil and running the illegal drug trade (while simultaneously pretending to fight it!).

You are living on ancient mythology which has long since ceased to impress anyone except the loyally deluded, and they are few outside the borders of the USA. They may even be dwindling to a minority within the borders of the USA...but that's a little hard to determine, since you have what amounts to a controlled media for the most part.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:34 PM

"Stig, you have demonstrated in cold print that you know nothing whatsoever of fascists, rogue states, the United States, or its Presidents. In about two posts. Quite the marvel of compactness, given the sweep of your ignorances."

Crikey, for such a small post you got a hell of a lot in there, Banal Gorilla.

Obviously (I am Mr. Obvious after all according to robomatic), given the sweep of my ignorances I could never hold my own in debate with such a knowledgeable and erudite primate such as yourself, and as such will bow to your superior intellect.

Banana?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:37 PM

Yeah, that's probably the best policy, stigweard. Just agree with him. That way he'll go away a lot sooner. That's what I should have done too, but I'm a sucker for certain kinds of bait. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:37 PM

"Barry, I see I am dealing with a towering intellect who either cannot spell or cannot edit. You can't expect to be taken seriously until you do both. It would help if you engaged in a little deep ratiocination while you're at it. "...rightously [sic] ordained Kings?"

Thanks for the personal attack. I see that you were able to understand me though. This is not about me, don't make it seem that way. Just please next time answer the questions there's no need for the above. My grammatical errors & misspellings are for more tolable that your attacks & political ignorance.

"Our cause is humanity's cause, and ever shall be; our society is made that way"

You make it seem like the holy crusades all over again. With God & the angels on our side. Check out yourself, will you? Some have been past (way past) that way before, about a thousand years before. For your next step you may want to update your politics to the Round Table & proceed from there.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:51 PM

The Nuclear test may have been a hoax.

Questions Raised Over Test Result

By Park Song-wu
Staff Reporter

Even though North Korea said it successfully conducted an underground nuclear test on Monday, Seoul and Washington have not yet confirmed whether Pyongyang's claims are true. Only Moscow immediately said the blast was a nuclear explosion.

Their careful attitude is grounded in the high possibility that the test could be a ``hoax'' _ in which North Korea set off a stock of conventional explosives _ or a failed test that had a yield substantially below its intended value.

``It seems unlikely to me that North Korea would have designed a first nuclear weapon with a yield of 1 kiloton or less,'' said James Acton of Vertic, a non-profit making, non-governmental organization in London that specializes in verification research, in an e-mail interview with The Korea Times.

The Korea Institute of Geoscience and Mineral Resources in Taejon, south of Seoul, initially said the seismic shockwave from a rugged site in the North's northwest coast registered 3.58 on the Richter scale that is translated into a yield of around 0.8 kilotons.

``I would have thought that it intended to have a yield of around 10 to 20 kilotons,'' he said. ``So, if the yield is put at 800 tons, then I think it is fair to call the test a failure.''

Acton said it is possible to make an explosion ``this large'' with conventional explosives.

In a previous interview with the AFP, he said that to detonate a huge quantity of TNT to simulate a nuclear blast was in itself quite difficult, as it needs to dig a large underground tunnel and requires detonators to be triggered all at the same time.

He said the seismic data is not a perfect source to rely on to distinguish whether it was a nuclear test or not.

``I've not yet seen any proof that the explosion was nuclear,'' he said. ``Using seismic data, it is very hard, although not impossible, to tell the difference between a conventional explosion and a nuclear one.''

He said the verification process takes time.

``If the test was nuclear, it might be possible to detect material, known as radionuclides, ejected from the test,'' he said. ``It will likely take days before we know whether the explosion really was nuclear.''

As for a prediction that the North would conduct another test in the coming days to escalate tensions further in Northeast Asia, he said: ``If this explosion was conventional, then I see no reason why North Korea could not commit another hoax.''

But he said the test, if it was nuclear, would help North Korea miniaturize its device and also increase its yield. In nuclear arms science, it is difficult to make a small weapons that require miniaturization techniques, he said.

The North hailed its first-ever nuclear test on Monday as a ``great leap forward in the building of a prosperous powerful socialist nation.''

Pyongyang's official Korean Central News Agency said the underground test was successfully performed with ``indigenous wisdom and technology,'' and that no radiation leaked from the test site.

``While attending President Roh Moo-hyun's breakfast meeting with leaders of the governing and opposition parties at Chong Wa Dae, Song Min-soon, chief presidential security secretary, said comprehensive judgment on the success of the nuclear test would be made possible after some two weeks,'' according to presidential spokesman Yoon Tai-young.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM

"Our cause is humanity's cause, and ever shall be; our society is made that way"

The best laugh I've had for ages. Who says the Americans don't do irony?

But, let's hear the ape out. Justify this comment please UB. Give us some supporting arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Scoville
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:19 PM

Say what? We've been nuclear for decades . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:41 PM

It's odd. The US and world media have been saying over and over again for at least a couple of years that they think North Korea already HAS nuclear weapons (a handful of them). Now everyone is acting SHOCKED all of a sudden!!! Like they just heard about it for the very first time...

What is the big fuss about exactly? Is North Korea any more dangerous now than they were a week ago? I think not. Nothing has changed in any real sense, as regards strategic military realities.

A big fuss was made about Pakistan when they did their first nuclear test too. Now it is an accepted fact that Pakistan is part of the nuclear club. It is not a crisis any more.

This North Korean thing isn't a real crisis either, it's a manufactured one. The North Koreans are making propaganda out of it, and the USA and everybody else are making propaganda out of it...all for their various selfish and manipulative reasons, and it's mostly a bunch of meaningless BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Scoville
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:47 PM

I still don't understand this--why do we think we can tell other countries they can't have nuclear weapons when we do? And why do we think they would even listen?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:59 PM

Scoville,

It has to do with international treaties, that N. Korea signed, promising NOT to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for tangible benifits, such as peaceful nuclear reactors, and money. Now that they have been given those, they decided in 1995 or so to go ahead and develop the bombs they promised in 1984 they would not develop.

A major point being ignored is that the failure of countries to follow their international obligations ( treaty requirements) is NOT being punished- Thus there is no valid reason to think any treaty will be followed.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 05:14 PM

The USA has also violated international law on several occasions, was found guilty by the World Court of illegal war actions against Nicaragua 1980's, and has openly defied the U.N. in the case of the recent attack on Iraq, and has not been punished for these illegalities! ;-) What shall we do about it, BB?

Sanctions? Or military attack? Or just dirty looks and calling them bad names?

What would you recommend?

My point being...all the countries out there obey international laws only until they feel their vital interests are at stake...and then they do not obey those laws. But they WILL raise bloody hell about it when someone else behaves similarly, won't they? ;-)

Blah, blah, blah! The propaganda game. Treaties are followed only until someone decides they can't afford to follow that treaty anymore, and thus it has ever been and ever shall be, I expect. The major powers are just as guilty of this as the little players like North Korea, but they all play the righteous indignation game whenever the other guy does it, because that's standard political gamesmanship.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 08:29 PM

Well, well, gol danged well...

Hooray!!!

I'm so happy that North Korea has a bomb!!!

Maybe they will sneak it into Crawfish, Texas next time Bush shows up for a brush cuttin photo-op??? Nah, maybe they will give it away to Osoma bin Lost and he'll sneak it into Crawfish, Texas next time Bush shows for a brush cuttin' photo-op???

Nah, maybe they will now be able to sleep at night not havin' to fear that big-bad-brush-cuttin'-Bush won't screw with 'um...

The dumbest thing in my memory that a prsident of the US ever did was telegraph his intentions to screw up 3 counties... Yeah and if we do a little review here looks as if all 3 have srewed up George Bush...

The US doesn't need a constitutional ammendment to outlaw gay marriage... Or one to outlaw flag burning but...

... if sho nuff could use one that prevents anyone who wears cowboy boots from runnin' for president!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 11:42 PM

Manitas--


So you are saying that in the 13 original British colonies in North America and in Australia there was no "moving or killing the original population"?

As I recall, the main reason many Indian tribes sided with the French in the French and Indian War-- (7 Years War, in Europe, I believe)-- is that they felt less threatened by the French trappers' stations (and low population) than by the British colonists who were constantly pushing westward.

Or would you like to assert that the 13 original North American colonies were not part of the British Empire?

And in Australia, what happened to the original population?

Perhaps the home country didn't have to have a declared policy of killing the original population in North America--after all, communicable disease helped the process along nicely. But if the colonists wanted "living space"--and very few exceptions--William Penn being the only prominent one I can think of right now---- they were never satisfied--they pushed, cheated and fought their way to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:41 AM

No, but there was no "lebensraum" movement or policy. They couldn't get ordinary people to move there unless they were convicts or indentured servants. The big emigrations came after the US was independent.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:57 AM

They couldn't get ordinary people to move there unless they were convicts or indentured servants

Wrong. But a not uncommon, though pernicious, misconception.

Pick up a copy of Bernard Bailyn's Voyagers To The West Knoph, NY 1986

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:02 AM

Wouldn't it be an idea for the discussion about lebensraum and such to move on to a separate thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Scoville
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:16 AM

So, basically, this is the U.S. saying "Do as I say, not as I do"? Well, duh--no wonder nobody listens to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:33 AM

the U.S. saying "Do as I say, not as I do"

it has been ever thus.......

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:16 PM

"Hugo is da man" and "I'm so happy that North Korea has a bomb!!!"

The babblings of an anarchist.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: 282RA
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:23 PM

Now Bush is saying that the US is committed to a diplomatic solution and will not invade.

Now, let me get this straight: We invaded Iraq because we thought they had WMD despite the fact that no one could find any and Iraq insisted it didn't have any.

But we won't invade a nation that definitely does have WMD and has stated that any attempts to interfere with their testing of these weapons will be considered an act of war.

Bush has to be the world's biggest idiot and coward. Oh sure, he can beat up on Iraq by calling them the threat that they, in fact, aren't; but he has no balls to go after a nation that IS the very threat he claimed Iraq was. Chickenshit asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Kaleea
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:50 PM

. . .goes evil? I thought prezeedint dubblepew already went newkewlar!?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Stu
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:36 PM

Well, if Bush and B.liar say NK detonated a bomb they must be right, after all, their intelligence is flawless . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:59 PM

The fact of an explosion is unarguable -- the seismograph says there was one. It doesn't say what it was, and it was awfully small for a nuclear explosion.

The critical point is that the Bush policy of antagonistic speech and no constructive action in regards to N. Korea is (a smight be expected) a dismal failure.

The reason he doesn't invade is because it could very easily involve China and Japan and precipitate a global war. OF course, that is only a few more million dead, so perhaps that wouldn't bother him, but maybe Root and Haliburton aren't ready to take advantage of that scenario just yet.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:05 PM

I always assumed during the run up to the war that the best evidence that the USA was sure that Iraq didn't actually have any significant WMDs would be if the USA and its diminutive chorus line invaded.

The claim that it was the other way round, and that the "intelligence" told them the WMDs were there, and they only found out the truth after the invasion seems extremely improbable to me.

The big worry is that this time it might be the other way round - once again they come up with "intelligence" assuring them that North Korea is a paper tiger, like Saddam's Iraq, but it turns out to be false.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:32 PM

It would be of strategic use to the USA to have a foothold on the border of China ...

Though personally, my instinct says that Kim is a loopy little egomaniac with about as much grip on reality as an acid casualty in a flotation tank.

He apparently has one of the largest porn collections in the world, which is where he applies most of his intellect.

Can anyone think of anything that might be less penetrating than his insight?

I reckon its a hoax (no not his dick, the testing), and that he set it up to get himself in the papers so he could be noticed like Daddy.

Mark my words - when he dies, it will be in a very unpleasant and painful manner and the photo's will be available for all to see. There will be much partying all over Korea.

He's like a spoilt 3 year old. He could be a character in the latest Doctor Who series. Loathesome, vile and not to be crossed for fear that he dismiss you summarily from the face of the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: 282RA
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 07:48 PM

>>The reason he doesn't invade is because it could very easily involve China and Japan and precipitate a global war.<<

Probably more like he can't. He already yanked about half the troops that were serving in Korea and sent them to Iraq some time ago. He can't go yanking them back again and he has no replacements because he is running the military into the ground. We're all bark and no bite and Kim Jong Il knows it. The Cowboy War President is running out of ammo.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 08:25 PM

Anarchist, Old Guy???

Nah, jus' a good ol' Jeffersonian... I very much believe in democracy and good governemnt...

What I don't believe in is corruption and bad government which is what we have now...

So, yeah, as long as we have this corrupt government, I'm danged glad when anyone pokes it with a stick...

Hugo, North Korea are fine with me... Neither has killed one American i nt ehlast 6 years... That's more than I can say fir yer cowboy hero...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:52 PM

He also can't invade because this time he'd need to actually declare war--no more blank checks. What will be fascinating to watch is exactly what punitive actions China thinks are appropriate--they sure don't want a war there.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: 282RA
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:23 AM

Congress is supposed to declare war anyway not him. After November, Bush can forget about Congress rubber-stamping everything for him. He wants to invade North Korea, Congress will either refuse to authorize it or will tell him to start the draft up first.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,Urbane Guerrilla
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,Urbane Guerrilla
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:40 AM

That's exactly what I meant by "no more blank checks".

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:47 AM

Bobert,

"Hugo, North Korea are fine with me... Neither has killed one American i nt ehlast 6 years... "


http://www.counterpunch.org/carkin01032003.html


" We were advised by one speaker to hope and pray that we didn't receive orders for the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) because, on average, about eight American soldiers were killed there every year by North Korean forces by sniper fire or in small skirmishes."

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:28 AM

You give Jefferson a bad name. Would he approve of dictators?

"Hugo, North Korea are fine with me"

You been sneakin out an' celebratin' out back in the Spartan again?

If you think Hugo and Chavez are fine, how would you like to live there?

Just simple question:

I would rather live in Venezuela than in the US. Yes___ NO___

I would rather live in North Korea. YES___ NO___

Now before you go claiming that approving of a dictator is not the same as wanting to live under his dictatorship, it is the same thing.

You claim to be unhappy with George Bush as a president, even though you have boasted "life is good", you have boasted about several real estate transactions that were facilitated by low interest rates and rising property values but you approve of Hugo Chavez as president, saying "Hugo's da Man". Is that not a statement that you would prefer to live under the rule of Hugo Chavez?

If you cannot answer it proves that you do not really believe the crap you post. You just post it to be funny. Just to stir up shit. You are such an expert on shit stirring that you should work for Roto Rooter.

I used to have some respect for you because you told a funny story every so often. I have lost that respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:29 AM

Interesting point in the next paragraph of that story beardedbruce linked to in Counterpunch:

"...this information, at least to my knowledge, has never been made public before. The majority of soldiers who were killed by North Korean forces were almost assuredly never recognized for their ultimate sacrifice. In other words, there could be approximately 400 families out there, and perhaps more, who were never told that their son or daughter was killed in combat. Most likely, they were told that they were swept away in a flooded river or died by accident when a grenade or some other weapon malfunctioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:10 AM

Well, it works this way. The public only hears about American deaths much when the government wants them to...meaning, when the government wants their consent so it can go and attack someone and have another war somewhere. It hasn't wanted that yet in Korea. That's why you didn't hear "boo" about American soldiers dying on the border of North Korea in the last however many years.

Anyway, I'm sure North Korean soldiers have died there too, and we don't hear about them either do we? Of course! They're hardly human, they're not American, and they're "evil" by definition, so why would we hear about it when they die, unless it served somehow to produce domestic American support for something the US government wanted to do? (sarcasm)

That's how it always works. You hear on the North American media exactly what you are supposed to hear and no more than that. The rest does not exist to all intents and purposes...or it might as well not exist.

Besides, even the American public is not stupid enough to start a war (which would kill several hundred thousand or several million people) over the loss of an average "eight American soldiers a year" in North Korean border incidents. At least, I certainly hope they are not that stupid! Anything is possible, I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:33 AM

Is Little Hawk going to join Bobert's Kim Jong-il fan club?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:57 AM

Sorry, Bruce- as the BuShites would explain to you, that's "just a number", and statistically insignificant as well, considering annual deaths in the military from natural causes, automobile accidents, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:04 PM

Sorry, Greg F.

If that is statistically insignificant, so are the US deaths due to combat in Iraq... less than 70 a month...

4000 people die each month just from automobile accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:15 PM

4000 people die each month just from automobile accidents

In the U.S. Military??? Geez, Bruce, they may have to re-institute the draft after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:59 PM

There are too many of those damned cars around these days! We should have a "War on Automobiles" instead and put an end to this mindless slaughter of our citizenry.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,RA282
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:35 PM

Life kills too many people. If I'm wrong, why is everybody who is now dead once alive?? Hmmmmm????? I say we declare war on life. Death to life!!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:15 PM

After it became evident the Weapons of Mass Destruction werenn't there, and after the efforts to suggest that somehow Iraq had something to do with September 11, the last remaining justifucation claimed for the invasion was that at any rate it had got rid of Saddam's regime, and that was enough of an achievement to justify the war.

Does anyone think that now? Unpleasant as Saddam's regime was, life today seems to be even worse. Even aside from the killings (if it's possible to say "even aside from" when the killings are on this scale), life is far worse for women, far worse for religious minorities, such as the rapidly shrinking Iraqi Christians, or for members of the majority religions, Sunni or Shiite, in places where they are in a minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:02 PM

It's worse for almost everyone in Iraq now...except perhaps the Kurds.

Anyway, the USA loved Saddam when he was attacking Iran for them in the 80's. Remember? How come they changed their minds about Saddam later? Because of poor little Kuwait? Hell, no. Because their decisions are not based upon moral considerations at all...they are based upon pragmatic issues of money flow and control of resources. They loved Saddam as long as he was useful to them, transformed him through propaganda into an arch-fiend when he was not. People are easily fooled, because they have such short memories.

The real truth about Saddam? It would be approximately halfway between the "good friend of America" from the 80's and the "deadly enemy of America" from more recent times.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:30 PM

It all seems a bit silly to me to be arguing about who's worse.

The point is that Kim Jong Ill may have the bomb (I'm not up to date on the latest I have to confess)

Why does that worry us? because he is an inept egocentric fantasist with a sickening coldness in his heart that would have most likely have been arrested for assaulting youg children by now were he to be living in the USA.

"What do we do about him? - well he's not as bad as ... oh ... nothing then"

"what do we do about bush? well he's better than ... oh ... nothing then"

Bicker bicker bicker, and the bastards get on with it and don't even know we exist, let alone care.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:50 PM

That's right. They (Bush, Blair, Putin, Kim Jong Il, etc...) "don't even know we exist, let alone care". They are all playing large scale power politics, and playing to win...or if not that, to survive.

One comment, though. It is not normally the business of a people to "do something about" another country's leader (unless already at war with that other country, and on the point of decisively winning said war). It is their job to do something about their own leaders, if they can.

To suggest that Americans, for instance, bear a new "white man's burden" and have a moral responsibility to do something about other people's leaders in distant parts of the world is a blanket justification for America to do what Hitler did in the late 30's and early 40's...attack other countries whenever they feel like it. It's a justification for unprovoked aggression.

It would be no more justified than if Putin or Kim or some other foreign leader decided to "do something" about Bush (meaning assassinate him or take him prisoner by military invasion and defeat of the USA. Put the shoe on the other foot and all of a sudden you see exactly what it means. Outright lawlessness, all in the name of a supposed moral superiority over other people.

What would be the reaction of Americans if some other country felt strong enough to suggest in the world media their desire to bring about "regime change" in the USA by force, as the USA decided to do in Afghanistan and Iraq, for example. The reaction on the part of Americans would be outrage! Readiness to fight at a moment's notice.

That's how it works. Put the shoe on the other foot and you begin to see how outrageous such an attitude is and why the "occupied" will never stop fighting such an occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:05 PM

Nice twist.

Sometimes it's useful too though to just take a breather, look at what's going on and say "oh shit, Kim's got the bomb" collectively, rather than just in the meek privacy of ones own mind.

Of course to do it for too long is to indulge it at the expense of other things, so keep working at peoples minds, but don't get too bogged down in that either.

You have to stay fresh, and that means varying your approach.

I don't mean to say you are specifically in need of advice LH, just that sometimes the bickering can seem like a protective bubble in itself.

Sometimes like a busy city, full of smog and people beeping their horns and telling each other to get out of the way, while the bomb hangs above it, suspended by ... is it a chaiin or a thread? I dunno!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:11 PM

Well, yeah, but I've been figuring for quite some time that Kim had the Bomb. ;-) I am not more scared now because he says he tested one.

The bombs that scare me are the ones in America's and Russia's arsenals. Those are the bombs that can accomplish the destruction of civilization as we know it. America and Russia have that capability. Kim doesn't.

You're right that the bickering can seem like a protective bubble. Actually, there is no protective bubble. There is only the hope that our national leaders don't completely lose their judgement at some point and start firing those missiles at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:18 PM

Yes

I wasn't really just thinking of Kim's bomb (if it's real). More just having a moment of reflection on how fragile and wonderful life is, and how inconceivably destructive the bomb is.

I've always had too vivid an imagination. I daydreamed at school, and most things that I understand I've worked out by visualising them.

I've always been afraid of the bomb, but it's since I became a dad that I've really begun to grieve for what the bomb is - a little ball of metal with no consciousness or conscience from which there is no escape.

It sounds like sci fi, but in fact its sci history, and not even contemporary at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:21 PM

No, it's amazing that the damned things have been around ever since 1945, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 10:27 AM

Whaddaya talk?
You can talk, you can talk
You can bicker, you can talk
You can bicker, bicker, bicker
You can talk, you can talk
You can talk, talk, talk, talk,
Bicker, bicker, bicker
You can talk all you want
But it's different then it was
No it ain't, no it ain't
But you gotta know the territory

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:08 AM

It's the Model T Ford made the trouble--or maybe it's something different this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:16 AM

Well, we talk because we like to. It keeps us busy. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:20 AM

100!

"Boink!"

(that was a little tiny nuclear explosion over in North Korea...)

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:42 AM

Why it's the Model T Ford made the trouble, not the bomb
made the people wanna go, wanna get, wanna get up and go
seven eight , nine, ten, twelve, fourteen, twent-two, twenty-three miles to the county seat.
Yes sir, yes sir

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:49 AM

"Why it's the Uneeda Biscuit made the trouble.

Uneeda, Uneeda, put the crackers in the package, in the package,

The Uneeda Biscuit in an airtight, sanitary package, made the cracker barrel obsolete, obsolete."

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:49 AM

Chinese official says no radiation found after North Korean nuclear test

he Associated Press

Published: October 13, 2006
BEIJING Chinese monitoring has found no evidence of airborne radiation from North Korea's claimed nuclear test, an official involved in the monitoring said Friday.

The official with the State Environmental Protection Administration said China has been monitoring air samples since the test-explosion Monday. "We have conducted air monitoring and found no radiation in the air over Chinese territory so far," said the official who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly release the information.

The official declined to explain how the monitoring was conducted.

Experts and governments have been unable to confirm North Korea's claim of a successful nuclear test. Japanese planes have scooped up air samples, but detected no radiation. Seismic data shows that there was an explosion at the claimed test site but is inconclusive as to the size of the blast and whether it was caused by a nuclear detonation.

The lack of evidence raises questions about whether North Korea is capable of assembling an operating nuclear bomb.

South Korean monitoring showed that the underground test was conducted in Pungkyeri near North Korea's northeastern coast.

In the wake of the explosion, the Chinese environmental agency activated contingency plans requiring air, soil and water testing, the Chinese official said. Results from the soil and water tests were not yet available, he said.

Local environmental protection bureaus in China routinely monitor air quality for pollution. An official at the environmental bureau in the Chinese city of Dandong on the North Korean border said that since the test-explosion his agency had been scanning air samples for radiation. He declined to provide the results of the monitoring.


BEIJING Chinese monitoring has found no evidence of airborne radiation from North Korea's claimed nuclear test, an official involved in the monitoring said Friday.

The official with the State Environmental Protection Administration said China has been monitoring air samples since the test-explosion Monday. "We have conducted air monitoring and found no radiation in the air over Chinese territory so far," said the official who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly release the information.

The official declined to explain how the monitoring was conducted.

Experts and governments have been unable to confirm North Korea's claim of a successful nuclear test. Japanese planes have scooped up air samples, but detected no radiation. Seismic data shows that there was an explosion at the claimed test site but is inconclusive as to the size of the blast and whether it was caused by a nuclear detonation.

The lack of evidence raises questions about whether North Korea is capable of assembling an operating nuclear bomb...

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 02:22 AM

The Mouse That Roared?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 01:01 PM

"Kim Jong mentally ill" is more than mere rhetoric.

Does this jerk think he can get away with fooling the entire world?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 01:41 PM

Well either it was a nuclear explosion or it was a fraudulent waste of conventional explosives intended to deceive. The seismograph only tells us it was an explosion. But all the rhetoric around it has sounded quite hollow to me -- fropm both sides -- so I wonder what the back-room sessions planning the event were like. You don't pull a bang like that out of nothing. If it was a sham it was a very expensive one. Cui bono? Korea is no better off. Maybe Kim Jong thought he could get the US to invade and then decimate his population, which is not self-sufficient annyway, and then make reparations and do a rebuilding thing.

Ijit.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:08 PM

"Does this jerk think he can get away with fooling the entire world?"

You could ask that same question about a great many well-known politicians! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM

Yeah, you could ask a lot of questions of a lot of people like Fidel who has throughly fooled Itty Bitty Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:58 PM

Nobody fools me "throughly". ;-)

Thoroughly, maybe...but not throughly!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:16 PM

I really don't know if it was real or not, but every scrap of evidence, circumstancial or not, makes full scale war that little less likley, Which is probably good.

BTW Little Hawk, 'The White Mans burden' had the introduction 'The United States and the Philippene Islands'
A new white mans burden isn't actually possible...

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 07:30 PM

Yeah, the USA started out in the 1770's by fighting the British Empire...and ended up in the 20th century by taking over its mandate! ;-) The old freedom-fighting revolutionaries became the new imperialists. It's happened that way a number of times in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:15 AM

Kim Jong il may be a crazy Stalinist but last I heard, he never invaded another nation. He needs nuclear power for defense.

Why is everyone so afraid of N. Korea? They may be crazy but their crazy in their own backyard, not mine.

The North Korean 'threat' is just another assumption that plays on the fear and paranoia of the American public.

When was the last time Kim Jong il issued a threat?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:25 AM

Yes, it's odd to see the one country that DOES invade other people quite frequently (the USA) yelling about threats from other countries all the time. Those other countries are deeply afraid of the USA, and that's why they arm themselves and bluster. It's exactly what a small dog does when he's scared. He barks and shows his teeth, in hopes that the big dog won't kill him. It may be a forlorn hope, but it's the best hope the little dog has in his armoury.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:36 AM

Some small dogs nip & nip & nip for so long that the big dog finally realizes that if it wants to get out in one piece it better leave while it can. One dog's name was Iraq-Nam

The small dog has no choice but to continue to fight till it's dead the big dog can always leave.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:37 AM

The Chinese assert they can find no trace of atmospheric radiation such as they would expect to see as a side-effect of a nuclear test. What gives with this situation?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,Urbane Guerrilla
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:08 AM

{Seeing if I can still post in this thread}

The record shows that the United States, while not for all times and all places quite free of empire building, is nonetheless the *least* imperialist of any great power on record. America came late to imperialism, and very halfheartedly, never making a single tributary province. The longest hold we had on a significant-sized trust territory was of the Philippines, and that for not quite fifty years -- less than a man's lifetime.

And we've given all of it back to the natives -- and this after conquering more land area than some empires that were intended to remain permanently.

That is our habit; I don't see us changing. We have an instinctive avoidance of imperialism because we recognize it's quite bad for business -- our dominance on Earth is not through conquest but through trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 02:11 AM

It's not the old-fashioned form of colonialism anymore, U.G. The Soviets were the last to try that, and it failed because it was too obvious. The corporate form of colonialism is unofficial, much more subtle, and just as brutally effective. It's done by controlling money and marketing and supposedly independent local political factions, not by establishing officially owned colonies. When you control the money (through organizations like the World Bank), when you control the flow of goods (through corporate contracts), when you have the US military to back you up if anyone doesn't cooperate with the economic colonization of the Third World...who needs official colonies?

You don't recognize the wolf, because he is wearing a sheep's costume, but he is still a wolf.

Official colonialism is out of style. De facto and absolutely real economic colonialism has never been more powerful than it is now.

You just control the big money and you back it up with the big guns. Everything else falls into line. The few rich grow richer, the many poor grow poorer, the dwindling middle class vanishes bit by bit. It's happening at home too on your own ground. You are witnessing the decline and fall of small scale capitalism, of a genuinely free market, and of a genuinely free society.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 04:50 AM

"The Chinese assert they can find no trace of atmospheric radiation such as they would expect to see as a side-effect of a nuclear test"

Well, if the Chinese say it it must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 12:39 PM

Perhaps the wind is simply not blowing in their direction... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:10 PM

The U.S. has now announced they have detected the radiation expected and confirmed it is consistent with a <1kTon nuclear device. We are (wisely, I think) eliciting lots of cooperation from the Chinese in seeking to exercise economic sanctions on the Kim Jong government. Some experts now believe North Korea may have separated plutonium enough to develop an arsenal of four to 13 nuclear weapons, compared with estimates of one or two nuclear weapons in 2000 according to USA Today.

I say wisely because until now, the biggest deterrent against overthrowing the Kim government in North Korea has been their alliance with the Chinese. But the Chinese have a strong vested interest in the ability of the United States to make good on the huge holdings in US securities possessed by the Chinese. So they are less likely to be interested in back N. Korea if it were to come to a show-down; if the Chinese got on the wrong side of a fight with the United States, I imagine we would renege on any such debts rather instantaneously, no? Assuming we survived such an encounter...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:12 PM

Okay, Stiggie:

America has been in some few wars in the past hundred years and more, right? On which side did we enter every war -- the side of greater and weightier, more oppressive government, or the side of liberty and governance that did not overween?

1898, the Spanish-American War -- allied with an insurgency of Cubans, against a moribund and thoroughly inefficient empire of the classically imperialist mode -- not an outfit that promoted civil liberties. We acquired, most notably, the Philippines -- and gave it to its native-born fifty years later.

1917, our entry into WW1 -- allied with Britain, Belgium, France, and incidentally Italy, against the Central Powers. And were the Central powers a great bastion of liberty and libertarian thinking? Hell no.

The "banana wars" of the twenties and thirties weren't much of a who's-better situation on either side, and none lasted long enough for moral contests to emerge along with martial contention.

1939-45, WW2: Allied with democracies and constitutional monarchies against three totalitarian regimes. Well known, and enough said.

1950, Korea: nascent and impure democracy south of the 38th Parallel, an unmistakeable Communist totalitarian state north of it, against which we fought. Refugees went SOUTH, not north. Had we been allowed to win, how much of the North would now prosper? Remember the Korean peninsula nighttime satellite photo. It tells you *everything.*

1965, Vietnam: same story, different parallel, even if the democracy wasn't particularly to be found in the Diem, Ky, or Thieu governments, for even less was to be found under Ho. One could blame the French, I suppose. You have to assess the goodness or lack of it of any given regime by how many refugees it generates, Stiggy. There weren't any from Diem, Ky, or Thieu, but a couple million Vietnamese fled south from the Hanoi government, and another couple million fled Vietnam entirely after 1973 when the totalitarian evildoers triumphed. What does it say of a regime that people would take to the sea in drifting rafts risking death by thirst and rape by pirates *in preference to* continuing to reside in the country of their birth? That said totalitarian evildoers were not entirely stupid is demonstrated by their abandoning Marxism, except as a sort of state religion, around 1983.

1961, Bay of Pigs, Cuba: against a declared Communist totalitarian dictator, no? Led fairly directly to the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, which put us in direct confrontation with another Communist totalitarian dictator.

It is our instinct to oppose oppressors.

Panama and Grenada: neither of our opponents in either case were at all about human liberty, were they?

And who did we ship the Stinger missiles to in Afghanistan? Somehow I don't think it was to the Soviets. For that matter, can *anyone* chain up the Afghans on their home ground? The record says no. Those boys do a very practical job of staying free.

Iraq, Chapters One and Two -- technically and legally, both brawls with Iraq are the same war, albeit one put on pause for eleven years if you ignore all the missiles Saddam's crew wasted shooting in the general direction of coalition aircraft. There was never a peace treaty, only a cease-fire. All this yelling about the Iraq war being illegal -- or even a separate war from Afghanistan -- is without any foundation, and a classic example of leftists trying The Big Lie -- to impair humanity's cause. Perhaps if we spanked the leftists, they'd stop it -- they tend not to be courageous.

So really, Stigweard, the only reason I can see for you to allege laughter is your own ignorance and your want of enthusiasm for the best of all likely systems of governance -- democracy, with liberal individual liberty. This ignorance and want puts you at one with some of the most objectionable men that ever left the womb -- the Pol Pots, the Hitlers, the Stalins. In a non-democracy, a sociopath may go far. Democracies filter them out of the political picture, and a good thing too!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 10:41 PM

"When was the last time Kim Jong il issued a threat?"

North Korea threatens
U.S. with nuke missile
Official says Pyongyang will fire weapon
Unless Washington acts to resolve standoff
Posted: October 10, 2006
6:00 p.m. Eastern


© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com


North Korean leader Kim Jong-il
Communist North Korea has threatened to fire a nuclear-tipped missile unless the U.S. takes action to resolve its standoff with Pyongyang, according to the South Korean news agency Yonhap.


N Korea threatens to 'wipe out' US
Agencies
Sunday, June 18, 2006 22:33 IST         

SEOUL: North Korea on Sunday threatened to "mercilessly wipe out" US forces in case of war during a national meeting to mark leader Kim Jong-Il's 42 years' work at the ruling party. The threat, in a ruling party report carried by the Korean Central News Agency, came as North Korea was reportedly preparing to test-fire a long-range missile despite strong protests from the United States and its allies.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,Gaza
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 01:18 AM

If you can take seriously a military threat to the USA from a tiny little Asian nation with a handful of nukes at best, Old Guy, you'd take anything seriously I expect. Get real.

It is not the habit of the USA to resist oppressors, Guest. It is the habit of the USA to resist competitors, label all competitors as "oppressors" whether they are or not...and support any and all oppressors who will cooperate with the plans of the USA.

As such, that has been the habit of all conquering empires since the dawn of time. They all love oppressors as long as the oppressors are willing to do business with the empire on the empire's terms...and they only draw attention to the oppression when they want to get rid of an old leader and replace him with a new one who is MORE cooperative in some way.

The entire Vietnam War need never have happened if the French and the Americans had only been willing to LEAVE Vietnam to the Vietnamese after 1945! And there would not have been a division made into North and South at all, which was the cause OF the continuing war. The only thing that could end that war was for the French AND the Americans to get the hell out of that country for good. They had no business being there whatsoever, not any more than Hitler had any business being in Belgium, Holland or France.

Everyone in those days who tried to pursue an independent path in a small unaligned country was immediately called a Communist by Washington just for doing so. And then left with no choice but to get help from the Communists. So the USA in its incredible ignorance went around the world literally driving Third World people into becoming communists, because they couldn't get help anywhere else if they would not surrender to America.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Urbane_Guerrilla
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:19 PM

Gaza, you're simply ignoring the evidence I presented. Can't do that and stay truthful, guy!

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 10:09 PM

Someone asks when NK threatend the US, I find two examples and post them and I am told to get real.

What did I do wrong?

What I was unable to find was a few years back some bigwig from the US visited NK and some bigwig there told him he was going to blow up his hometown in the US. I thought that was quite a nasty threat. Maybe someone here can remember the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Urbane_Guerrilla
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 10:13 PM

No, Gaza, the Communists opportunistically picked up on nationalist movements -- Marx-come-latelies.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:38 PM

Guest Gaza, so a handful of Nukes isn't a meaningful threat? They might be lobbed at troops , and only kill tens of thousands, but are just as likley to end up in the centre of a big city, and kill millions.

A meaningful threat doesn't have to mean that North Korea can actually 'win' (not that anybody wins in in this context), just that it can inflict massiive casulties.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:23 PM

GUEST Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:12 PM

"This ignorance and want puts you at one with some of the most objectionable men that ever left the womb -- the Pol Pots, the Hitlers, the Stalins."

Crikey - that's not nice now is it? It's nice to see we have a genuine belligerent right-winger back on the cat. Reminds me of the good old days.

Your neo-con posturing and reeling off of famous American military campaigns shows a distinct lack of understanding of the world outside your borders. Is this an attempt to gain the moral high ground from the lefties you'd so love to spank?

It's interesting though you state your country will alway has and will take "the side of liberty", how you ignore the fact that your mate Rumsfeld was a supplier of arms, intelligence and military advice to Saddam, his role in promoting torture in Abu Grahib etc etc.

And the guys you sold the stinger missiles too are shooting at you now. Osama was funded by the CIA (as well as the Saudis) so it looks like "our instinct to oppose oppressors" goes right out of the window when there's a vested interest.


"Democracies filter them out of the political picture, and a good thing too!"
Well said sir. Shame there's one in the White House at the moment then.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:40 PM

Bearded Bruce

I consider myself a liberal, but the irrational criticism of the US that comes from much of the left abroad and in this country never ceases to amaze me. You really are wasting your time arguing with people who see Bush as Hitler, or the American clusterfuck in Iraq as new British Colonialism, or NATO as an extension of the American Empire. These are the same people who think, if Britain and the US have nuclear weapons, it's only fair that North Korea, Iran, and South Yemen should have them. It's a way of thinking that sees everything on a shifting scale of relative guilt (how dare we criticize anyone else when we are guilty of...something), and wrong and right as only definable in a cultural context. There's no use approaching them rationally, because they approach the argument using the only rationale they can deal with : Instinctive cynicism.   
Between these knuckleheads and the neo-cons who see Bush as a noble defender of freedom and justice, I fear we'll see a world full of dictatorships, laden with ancient religious grudges, apocalyptic urges, and greedy little wars over ground promised them by god, all armed to the teeth with nukes inside of five years. Then those nasty American Imperialists will get what's comin to em...and so will we all.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 01:31 AM

Old Guy - Kim Jong il threatened to fire a missle at ???

He threatened to "mercilessly wipe out" US forces in case of war.
Isn't that what people say when they feel threatened? Sounds defensive if you ask me.

What I was suggesting was that Kim Jong il may be crazy but not crazy enough to make a first strike.

I have read nothing that suggests that he will attempt to invade any other nation unless he is protecting his cultish empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:19 PM

C'mon Old Guy - I'm waiting for your articulated response.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 12:45 AM

I'm still wating for you to define what or who the other side is.

And there was the question about how you would address the needs of the Palestinians for jewish blood.

"U.S./Britain/Israel resume diplomatic relations and begin to address their concerns."

Now address these concerns Dianavan:

"We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews."

"We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood."

"We will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs."
"Jihad is the only way to liberate Palestine -- all of Palestine -- from the impurity of the Jews."

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 01:27 AM

One can always find quotes from the biggest idiots and fanatics on any side of any given issue, and use them to damn ALL the people on that side and justify one's own aggressive position. In fact, that is a standard technique of propaganda everywhere, isn't it? Don't quote them when they're reasonable, only quote them when they're foaming at the mouth about something.

That's how you can convince your own people to go out and have a war with someone.

Actions speak louder than words. Who has used the greatest amount of deadly force, and used it on other people's territory? The USA, Britain, and Israel. Over and over again. The Palestinians and Arabs have also used deadly force...but to a much lesser effect. Are they not the ones who should fear being attacked? They are the ones whose lands keep being invaded and occupied by vastly greater military power than their own.

It should not be surprising that many of their people have become fanatics in a response to what is, from their point of view, a totally humiliating situation that has been going on now for many decades.

They are the world's punching bag, Old Guy. That's why some of them say extreme things and do extreme things. It's a natural reaction to being kicked and beaten like a dog. After awhile the dog bites back.

Now go find some enlightening quotes from the enraged American Joe Public immediately after 911, calling for someone's blood...similar stuff, but it won't prove anything except this: ordinary people lose their heads when they're under extreme pressure and they sometimes say stupid things.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 08:17 AM

Comment on Old Guy
His statement written as "fact" that there are "needs of Palestinians for jewish blood" is a disgusting piece of racist bile. It should be removed from Mudcat. It is a line that could have been written by one of the leading nazi anti semites during holocaust.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 08:35 AM

Old guy, the trouble is it's not the folk in the streets being quoted there. Stuff like that comes from the leaders of Iran and Palastine....

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 09:34 AM

The statement above illustrates the position and mindset of the Palestinians. It is instilled in them by their leaders. It is taught to the children in school with books and at home through TV, cartoons, the Internet and by their religious leaders.

To say this is racist propaganda is to ignore the facts much as the Nazis were ignored. It was thought by many that the Nazis could be reasoned with and made peace with. They were wrong.

Islamic terrorists and extremists cannot be reasoned with. You cannot make peace with them. They want you dead. Furthermore they play the victim while slaughtering thousand of innocent people, even their own people while pursuing their insane objectives.

Khaled Mashal, most senior figure in Hamas: "The nation of Islam will sit at the throne of the world ... Muhammad is gaining victory in Palestine, in Iraq. ... The Arab and Islamic nation is rising and awakening. ... Tomorrow we will lead the world."


Hamas Website: High-Tech Hate for Kids

Brainwashing the younger generation of Palestinians with concepts of terrorism and hatred has great importance for Hamas. As part of its indoctrination effort, Hamas makes extensive use of the Internet, with approximately 20 Internet sites in seven languages. One sites is an children's magazine called Al-Fateh ("The Conqueror"), www.al-fateh.net.

The magazine has attractive graphics and contains comic-like drawings and photographs to make it "friendly" and attractive to its target audience of young children. There are poems, articles about religious subjects, and tales of heroism from Arabic and Islamic history.

Side by side with these "innocent" items are articles preaching the perpetration of terrorist attacks, extolling the suicide bombers and presenting them as role models, and encouraging hatred for Israel and the Jewish people.

Examples:

(1) Turning the terrorist who perpetrated the 2001 suicide bombing attack at the Dolphinarium into a role model for children. The attack resulted in the deaths of 21 Israeli civilians, mostly teenagers, and 83 wounded. The attack was widely praised in Al-Fateh, which published the text of the will written by the suicide bomber before he left to blow himself up. The will was intended to glorify and extol the image of the suicide bomber and to encourage others to follow in his footsteps, promising the pleasures of paradise in the hereafter. His writings and posters bearing his portrait are distributed by Hamas throughout the Palestinian Authority- administered territories.

(2) Issue No. 38 of Al-Fateh, Hamas' online children's magazine, displayed a picture of a female suicide bomber next to a photograph of her decapitated head lying on the road. The caption praises the act and notes that she is now in paradise, a shaheeda like her male comrades. She killed two Israelis and wounded 17 in September 2004, at Jerusalem's French Hill junction.

(3) Issue no. 38 of Al-Fateh features a story about Muhammad al- Durra, a Palestinian child who died when he was trapped in crossfire between Israeli soldiers and armed Palestinians. Everything about the story is biased and a total fabrication intended to portray Israeli soldiers as a band of evil sadists who enjoy killing both adults and children, and to turn a tragic incident into a tool for inciting Palestinian children to hate Israelis and the Jewish people.

"...The soldiers' teeth protruded as they laughed aloud [when al- Durra was shot], like the protruding teeth of wolves grinding the bones of an innocent lamb they have hunted out of the arms of its mother..."

To intensify the children's hatred for Israelis, the little girl in the story is depicted as having lost an eye when she threw stones at Jews in Al-Aqsa mosque.

"Israa' fought against the pain in her eye with exceptional bravery... She thought of herself as a soldier in the ranks of Allah's army, and was of the opinion that Allah honored her and counted her as one of the defenders of blessed Al-Aqsa mosque... Today her grandmother said�'Do you know, Israa', that your missing eye will be proof and like a medal of honor... proof of the crimes of the Jews, and a medal of honor for your having stood up to their crime of wanting to desecrate our holy places..."

One article says that the Jews were the first to produce magazines for children, using them "in order to brainwash children in the ways of the Torah, the Talmud and the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'" -- the libelous book purporting to contain the Jewish plot to take over the world.

Al-Fateh also includes a story which describes how Israeli soldiers demand that a boy, Mihnad, pull down a Palestinian flag flying above an olive tree. Mihnad refuses and does not give in even when he is shot at. When they force him to climb up the tree, Mihnad cries: "long live my land in freedom, long live the flag." The soldiers kill Mihnad in reaction and he is left clutching the flag, drenched in his own blood.

Another story speaks of martyrdom, as a suicide bomber declares that "there is nothing greater than killing oneself on the land of Palestine, for the sake of Allah."

* * *

The terrorist organizations frequently use militant Islamic messages to encourage children and teenagers to join the conflict and to participate in military operations, including suicide bombings. Some examples:

▪ Salah Shehada, who was one of the leaders of the Hamas in Gaza, stated in an interview (on the website Islam On-line, 26 May 2002), that children should be properly trained before they are sent on a mission and that they should be recruited into a special unit of the military arm of the Hamas in order to instill in them the culture of military jihad and to teach them to distinguish between good and evil.

▪ Dr. Padhl Abu Hin, a psychology lecturer, was interviewed on this subject for a television movie entitled "Child Patriots and a Martyrs' Death." He noted that the Palestinian child understands that, by means of the shahada (a martyrs' death for the sake of Allah), through the perpetration of attacks, he/she can win honor and appreciation, without life being ended. [The concept of] Shahada, according to him, encourages children to take an active part in the conflict against Israel (Palestinian TV, 27 June 2002).

▪ Rasha el-Rantissi, wife of Abed el-Aziz el-Rantissi, told the Arab media that she is educating her children to resistance and jihad. She added, "I hope that my husband, my children and I will receive the shahada so that we may prove that we are the first to sacrifice our children for Allah;" "Allah is generous with us, because our children die as fighters, and we wait with them for death for Allah's sake any minute" (el-Bian, 16 June 2003).

▪ Yasser Arafat's speech on the occasion of "Palestinian Child Day", broadcast by Palestinian television (1 June 2003), in which Arafat conveyed a militant Islamic message to the Palestinian child, based on Islamic tradition, encouraged the children to be fighters on Islam's front line (rabat) and to die as martyrs for Allah, while bestowing special status on the ones thus killed (shaheeds).

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Lox
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 09:33 PM

I'm astonished at the phrase

"only a handful of nukes"

... Come on ...

How many nukes did it take to destroy Hiroshima?

How much devastation does "only a handful of nukes" cause?

What planet are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 09:48 AM

Turn North Korea Into a Human Rights Issue

(Open letter by Vaclav Havel et al.)

While the focus in recent weeks has been on North Korea's nuclear test, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the government there is also responsible for one of the most egregious human-rights and humanitarian disasters in the world today.

I could have started an extra thread but I think it fits here too.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 10:26 AM

True enough, it's clearly a pretty horrible regime.   Equally clearly there is no prospect that an invasion from abroad would do anything other than make it worse - if Iraq is bad enough in that respect, an attack Korea would be far more devastating.

If the existence or the possible existence of nuclear weapons serves to rule out that option, that's a good thing. As Vaclav Havel says in that piece Wolfgang just linked to, the right thing now is to concentrate on the human rights issue.

The important thing though is that this shouldn't be done as a way of carrying on domestic policy in other countries, making gestures to show how tough some poliotician is and so forth. There are ways of helping people in North Korea have better and freer lives, but sabre-rattling isn't one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Axis of Evil goes nuclear
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 11:11 AM

Gwynne Dyer has a very interesting article on North Korea that might shed some light on the matter. Go here...


article on North Korea