Origins: origin of Moonshiner

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:49 PM

How did I miss that? Brain getting mushy.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: GUEST,Harmony Lawrence
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 06:10 PM

Hi everyone, I just found a letter hidden on the floor boards of my attic while renovating. The letter is from 1909 leaving Hoodriver, OR and going to Ellensburg, WA. It has 7 lines of the song in it on page 3 of 9.

"We are ramblers and Gamblers
and far from our homes
those that don't like us can let us alone
we will eat when we are hungry
an drink when we are dry
If whiskey don't kill us
we will live till we die"

I haven't gotten it full scanned or documented yet, but was curious about the debates of the songs origins when I came across them while researching the song online.

Any who are curious with the progress of documentation can contact me at [e-mail]

Obviously we are in the middle of home renovations, but will be happy to indulge in the mysteries of this letter on the side.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: meself
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:05 PM

GUEST,Harmony Lawrence: That's interesting - please keep us posted as to any developments.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: GUEST,Harmony Lawrence
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 01:22 AM

My friend and I did a full transcript of the letter tonight while trying to remain true to how it was written. Here is the transcript with sectioning for the envelope it was in, and the different pages of the letter. Please note there were a lot of grammar and spelling errors from the writer and we have left those in place for this version. I hope you find it as thrilling to read as we did. I never could have ever imagined finding something this cool under the floor!:

Front of Envelope:

Stamp says:

“Hood River, Oregon Mar 28 5.30pm 1909”

Addressed:
Miss. Verna Meuller
Ellensburg, Washington

3 Ben Franklin Stamps Green in color

Back of Envelope:

G.W.A.K.

Stamp says:

“Ellensburg, Washington Mar 29 2pm 1909”

{American Flag Postal Ink Stamp}

Letter:

Page 1:

Hood River Ore
Mar. 28, 09.

Hello Kido

My Dear Verna

I received your letter a few minutes ago and was very glad to hear from you.

For god sake Dear don’t let Ida get any more of your letters

And I tell you Dear if she jumps me about writting to you I will give her the 23 dam quick two because she has got no buyness opening your letters has she pet

I hate it about her getting

Page 2:

a hold of that one. For I had things in it that I dident want anybody to know but you. I told you in that letter that if you want to come down here that I would see that you would have a place to eat and a place to sleep, and if you want to go to work I will look out for a job for you in a Resterant or Hotel waiting on tables can you sling hash

If you want to come dear

Page 3:

you can ramble with me and we can live to this mota S.H.

We are ramblers and gamblers
And far from our homes
Those that don’t like us can let us alone
We will eat when we are hungry
An drink when we are dry
If whiskey don’t kill us
We will live to till we die
Beleave me SH I am the      HA HA
rambling kid when I get started to rambling.

If you want to come Dear pack your grip and Ramble
buy a ticket to Pasco then take

Page 4:

the NO Bank RR to Dalles then cross the River to the Dalls
Then you can come down to Hood River on the boat or Train.
The fair will cost about $10.00 and if you can’t get the money Dear, And want to come and see your old Boy, I will send you a ticket as soon as I get a little money a head I will see that you won’t have to go back ether unless you want to
I feel as tho I might as

Page 5:

well make a living for you Sweet Heart as some sporting woman the way I have been doing for the last ten years.

Dear I won’t have my pictures taken till the first of the month


I sopose Ida is still on her year and hoter than hell at you well if she don’t like it she can lump it

When I first got acquainted with Ida I went to see her for over 4 months

Page 6:

and alway treated her like a lady. Then she turned me down and wouldent even ans my letters that I wrote her I alway had a cozey little corner in my heart for her but she tore it out, and she can’t put it back

For you have got one there instead S.H. Ha Ha

I am still working and work dam hard to putting in from 12 to 15 hours a day and am

Page 7:

(SIDE NOTE AT TOP OF PAGE)ans as soon as you get this Sweet Heart for I am in a hurry to hear from my Verna Dear. (END SIDE NOTE)

just all in every night But maby every day will be Sunday by and by. You want to over look all my trobles that I write, for I may not have any to write about someday so I want to get the benefits of them while I can HA HA

Well I will have to close for the time Baby Dear

With all my love and many Kisses for my S.H.

For Ever You Honey Boy
Ans soon.       G. Purdin

NEW LETTER SAME ENVELOPE

Page 8:

Hello Kido,                         2.10PM
I haven’t mailed your letter yet so will scribe a few more lines

When you write tell me what Ida has got to say for her self I not going to write to her till shes write and then will let on as tho I hadent wrote a word to you and if she says anything about it well tell her to go squar to Hell for she hasent treated

Page 9:

me write has she dear she hasent ans my last letter yet. and I wrote it six weeks ago
How is the weather up there today. It is sure fine here now and has been every sense Ive been here
Well I haven’t said much this this letter but made it as long as I could HA HA

By By Lovee Dove
Lots of love and many KISSES

Geo

BACK SIDE OF PAGE 9:

PS
You Neadent worry about that letter Baby Dear
I guess there was nothing in there that would hert her if there is you tell her to go to Hell for me
No Kido I dident send no picture in that letter

By By
Lots of L and many Kisses
Geo

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: cnd
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 10:49 AM

1909 is earlier than the "earliest date" that Fresno State has in their sources but I think they tend to rely on "complete" texts or sources from folklorists.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: meself
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 01:39 PM

That letter is great - thanks! The whole thing is like a Dylan song. If he's never used the question 'Can you sling hash?' in a song, I want to know the reason why.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 02:50 PM

Maybe that was the complete song - as far as the singers knew.

The verses (more or less) turn up (I believe) in John Lomax's 1910 "Cowboy Songs," in the probably conflated "Rabble [sic] Soldier."

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 05:41 PM

I am forced to conclude that if I don't live till I die, whiskey will kill me.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: GUEST,jmudrick
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 10:33 PM

Thread not dead...I note that in Sandberg the (minor key) arrangement is credited to AGW, who from his notes I take to be Alfred George Wathall. So there's that.


I'll observe that Dylan's interpretation is unique, and in my opinion the most "desolate and poignant" of all to use Sandberg's description of the tune he collected.

I figured Dylan's version might be the same as Van Ronk's, both being recorded around the same time but it's not. Dylan makes three unique changes:

First, Dylan in the first verse does not set up his still to make a few dollars, he sits by it to drink by himelf:

"I go to some hollow,
And sit at my still
And if whiskey dont kill me,
Then I dont know what will,"

In the second, there's no grocery:

"I go to some bar room,
And drink with my friends,
Where the women cant follow,
And see what I spend....,"

In the third, rather being assertively drinking when he's dry, Dylan is plaintive:

"Let me eat when I am hungry,
Let me drink when I am dry,
A dollar when I am hard up,
Religion when I die,
The whole world's a bottle,
And life's but a dram,
When the bottle gets empty,
It sure ain't worth a damn."

Rolf Cahn's 1959 had the "World is a bottle" line which I love (first that I find it) but I find the other changes Dylan makes really do take the song a long long way away from the jaunty Irish versions, and it's Dylan's I can't get out of my head.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 07:52 AM

And one further observation. The Fresno State database asserts that Dylan likely adopted his version from hearing the 1937 Daugh Henson field recording but this seems unlikely. Both the Henson and Kazee versions include the "I always stay sing single version" not present in the Sandberg version, and neither include the "World's just a bottle" segment which I find first with Rolf Cahn and later Van Ronk. Seems to me much more likely Dylan heard Cahn's Folkways recording or learned the song from his friend Van Ronk who recorded it in 1964 but likely was performing it earlier.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 12:43 PM

Moonshine may be nostalgic to sing about, but don't ever drink any. Standards today are very, very low.

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 01:39 PM

Robert Morris Peck, "Rough Riding on the Plains Fifty Years Ago: A Trooper's Story," National Tribune (Washington, D.C.), May 16, 1901 [Referring to Fort Riley, Kans., 1858-59]:

"One of Ike's favorites was:

I would not die in Springtime,
   When the worms begin to crawl,
When the cabbage plants are sprouting,
   And the frogs begin to squall;
O, then the girls the bloomers wear,
   And smile upon the men;
That's the time to stick it out --
   I would not perish then.

"And so on through the four seasons, proving conclusively that there was no time appropriate for dying.

"In another chorus he would sing:

I'll eat when I'm hungry,
   And drink when I'm dry;
If the Indians don't kill me,
   I'll live till I die."

Subject: RE: Origins: origin of Moonshiner
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 01:53 PM

Here's Ike's complete season song (Yankee Notions, Sept., 1853):

                I Would Not Die at All,

AIR-"I would not Die in Spring Time.”

I would not die in Spring time,
When worms begin to crawl;
When cabbage plants are shooting up,
And frogs begin to squall;
Tis then the girls are full of charms, A
And smile upon the men;
When lamb and peas are in their prime,
I would not perish then.

I would not die in Summer,
When trees are filled with fruit,
And every sportsman has a gun,
The little birds to shoot.
The girls then wear the Bloomer dress,
And half distract the men;
It is the time to swear it out
I would not perish then.

I would not die in Autumn,
When new-mown hay smells sweet,
And little pigs are rooting round
For something nice to eat.
'Tis then the huntsman's wild halloo,
Is heard along the glen,
And oysters 'gin to fatten up,
I would not perish then.

I would not die in Winter,
For one might freeze to death
When blustering Boreas sweeps around,
And takes away one's breath,
When sleigh bells jingle - horses snort,
And buckwheat cakes are tall;
In fact this is a right good world,
I would not die at all!