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Lyr Req: Back Up and Push

Related threads:
Lyr Req: Rubber Dolly (13)
Lyr Req: Rubber Dolly (26)
Tune Req: Rubber Dolly (5)


GUEST,Richie 16 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Richie 16 Oct 06 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,Richie 16 Oct 06 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,Richie 16 Oct 06 - 11:01 PM
Pauline L 17 Oct 06 - 03:52 AM
12-stringer 17 Oct 06 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 17 Oct 06 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Richie 17 Oct 06 - 08:32 AM
GLoux 17 Oct 06 - 10:08 AM
Fred McCormick 17 Oct 06 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,Jim 17 Oct 06 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Jim 17 Oct 06 - 12:34 PM
greg stephens 17 Oct 06 - 02:29 PM
12-stringer 17 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Richie 17 Oct 06 - 10:54 PM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 18 Oct 06 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Jim 19 Oct 06 - 12:53 PM
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Subject: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knew whether the well known fiddle tune Back Up and Push had any lyrics.

When was it first written and has anyone heard the Rubber Dolly lyrics sung to it as a fiddle song?

What is the origin of Rubber Dolly? Is Ella Fitzgerald's version the first jazz version?

Is "My Creole Belle" by Mississippi John Hurt the same song? Are there other versions of My Creole Belle and where did it originate?

Thanks,

Richie


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:50 PM

Hi,

I talked to championship fiddler Debbie Gitlan, who plays at most of the fiddle festivals in the southeast.

She said most of old-time bands sing, "Rubber Dolly" lyrics. Some call it "Rubber Dolly" and some call it "Back Up and Push."

She recommends Kenny Baker's version of Back up and Push.

Richie


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 10:53 PM

Here's some info and lyrics on Creole Belles. I've played through the score on American Memory (on the guitar). It's definately the melody or very similar one to Back Up and Push/Rubber Dolly. What probably happened is the melody became popular and lyrics were added.

Mississippi John Hurt has simialar lyrics. Did he write his based on the original? He probably heard this played and learned it.

I'd like to find more info on the origin of Rubber Dolly.

Here are the original lyrics. Note the title of the song is wrong (sic) Creole Bells (plural) while the lyrics have "Creole Belle"

Creole belles 1900; Lampe, J. B. (Jens Bodewalt), 1869-1929

OTHER TITLES First line: My Creole belle, I love her well

CREATED/PUBLISHED Detroit, Michigan, Whitney-Warner, 1900

Instrumentation: piano with lyrics on last strain


I love her well,
Around my heart she cast a spell
When stars do shine
I call her mine
My dusky baby, my Creole Belle.

Richie


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 11:01 PM

MY CREOLE BELLE- Mississippi John Hurt
For reference, here are Mississippi John Hurt's lyrics (they are also in the DT)

My Creole Belle, I love her well
My darling baby, my Creole Belle
My Creole Belle, I love her well
My darling baby, my Creole Belle.

When the stars shine, I'll call her mine
My darling baby, my Creole Belle
My Creole Belle, I love her well
My darling baby, my Creole Belle.

My Creole Belle, I love her well
My darling baby, my Creole Belle
When the stars shine, I'll call her mine
My darling baby, my Creole Belle.


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: Pauline L
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:52 AM

I recommend Kenny Baker's version of any fiddle tune. He is almost unbelievably good. He's my new idol.


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: 12-stringer
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:33 AM

II don't have Tony Russell's hillbilly discography and am relying on the On-Line 78 RPM Discography for details.

It looks as if this tune comes into the hillbilly repertoire in the late 1920s.

Back Up and Push was recorded twice in mid-1929, a few days apart -- in Richmond, IN, by the Augusta Trio, a group of whom I know absolutely nothing, and then in Atlanta by the Georgia Organ Grinders, a fiddle band despite their name. Whether either featured a vocal I don't know, but the Organ Grinders have singing on every one of the 4 or 5 sides of theirs I've heard. These are the earliest recordings under this title that I can find.

Gid Tanner's Skillet Lickers did it in San Antonio for Bluebird in 1934. Gid does some falsetto yaddle-daddle on it, though I don't think he's singing actual lyrics. He's hard to understand when doing falsetto. Monroe did it, also for Bluebird, in 1940, an instrumental version.

The earliest Rubber Dolly Rag I can see is recorded by Uncle Bud Landress for Victor, also in Atlanta, in Nov 1929. This is probably the same tune. It's been reissued on a BACM compilation, from the UK, of Georgia Yellow Hammers and associated groups, and also appears in Juneberry's CD collection of Old Time Music Vol 1, but I don't find any sound samples of either.

Perry Bechtel and His Boys recorded a Little Rubber Dolly in Atlanta, 1931, which was released on Columbia's popular (not the hillbilly) series. Bechtel was a virtuoso guitarist and tenor banjoist, a la Roy Smeck, though he also did some studio work on both race and hillbilly sessions in Atlanta. (The flip side of the 78 was "Liza Jane," also of hillbilly origin.)

Ella Fitzgerald and the King Sisters each released a "Wubba Dolly" in 1939, with vocals. There are 4 or 5 western swing covers of the song as well, though they seem to have been recorded so soon after it's hard to believe they had time to learn it off either of the pop 78s. (Little Rubber Dolly, aka Hot Mama Stomp, by Dick Reinhart and the Universal Cowboys actually predates the pop records, presuming it's the same song.) This suggests to me the song was getting live radio play before it was recorded, and that the western swing versions may be covers of that. The lyrics to the Fitzgerald version are more extensive than any I've heard on the country music side; I only know one verse, plus a variation of it ("Don't you tell her/I kissed a feller" and "Someone told her/I kissed a soldier"), the latter of which I learned from my mom about 50 years ago. I've played backup for a fiddle on this a few times in the 60s and 70s, and we never had any more lyrics than that.

"Creole Belle" is very close to the same tune, except that it doesn't have a B part in the MJH version. As long as I've known the latter, I've always played the B part from "Back Up and Push," as it never seemed "right" to me without a B section. I'd been playing it for a while before I figured out what it reminded me of, and that's when I realized where I'd also lifted the B part. Up till then I thought it was natural improvisation!

An orchestral version of "Creole Belles," from 1919, by the NY Military Band, is available on the UCSB cylinder preservation site. It's mostly very much like a march, with several strains. One of them is MJH's song but it doesn't have anything remotely like the B part of Back Up and Push.


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:09 AM

The first part of the tune itself would apear to originate from the Ragtime piano cakewalk piece mentioned above, J Bodewalt Lampe's "Creole Belles". I haven't listened to the original piano roll for a while but I believe it is the second strain in the above piece. Apparently it was one of several ragtime pieces made popular by the playing of John Philip Sousa and probably entered the folk tradition from there. I have always, possibly erroneously assumed that the Rubber Dolly lyrics originated from a kids skip-rope song ?


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:32 AM

Thanks for the replies,

The melody to Back Up/Rubber Dolly is the 2nd strain, the opening strain has nothing to do with either.

12 Stringer you mentioned the B part. There is a third part that has the similar chords at the beginning of it. This might have been adapted as the 2nd part of Back up and Push.

The lyrics are found on the last page to the second strain (although it has modulated to the key of C (1st time it's in the key of G).

It seems likely that Rubber Dolly/Back Up and MJH's "My Creole Belle" all originated from the same melody by Lampe.

After all, this was entering the popular time for ragtime. The Maple Leaf Rag sold, if I remember correctly, over 5 million copies during the early 1900's. It would be interesting to find out the popularity of Creole Belles.

Richie


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GLoux
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 10:08 AM

The Bing Bang Boys recorded a version of Creole Belle with a 2nd (B) part. (The Bing Bang Boys are Greg & Jere Canote, W.B. Reid and Mark Rubin.) I'll quote the liner notes:

"Like many folks, we first heard this song from Mississippi John Hurt. Some years ago, W.B. discovered the complete version by Sidney and Lampe in Ann Charters' fine work, 'The Ragtime Song book.'"

-Greg


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 11:10 AM

12 Stringer:
"I don't have Tony Russell's hillbilly discography and am relying on the On-Line 78 RPM Discography for details."

Hi 12 Stringer,

Do you have the website address of this discography ?

Cheers,

Fred McCormick,


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 12:31 PM

John Hurt uses essentially the same melody for Richland Woman.

The McLain Family from Beriah Kentucky sang words to Back Up And Push.


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 12:34 PM

Try http://www.aca-dla.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Berea&CISOPTR=486&REC=15


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 02:29 PM

"Back Up and Push" (Harbourtown Records cassette 1989) was the first Boat Band album. Hopefully to be re-issued shortly on CD.(Not strictly relevant but I can never resist a bit of gratutious advertising).
   I would say the tunes of "Back up and Push" and "Creole Belle" are related, but not necessarily one adapted from the other. Two independent tunes I would suggest, but the former modified by hearing the other? As to lyrics: never heard any. And, incidentally, what does the phrase mean precisely?


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: 12-stringer
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM

Fred:

The On-line 78 rpm discography is here:

http://settlet.fateback.com/

See also here

http://www.honkingduck.com/discog/olds_search.php?submit=Information

for a reasonably efficient engine to search the discography (there's a search function in the discog itself, but I don't find it as satisfactory as the one at honkingduck.com).


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 10:54 PM

I couldn't access the McLain family MP3. Anyone else have problems?

Could someone please post the lyrics?

Thanks,

Richie


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Subject: RE: origin/lyrics: Back Up and Push
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:22 PM

The reason that the Georgia Organ Grinders sounded so much like the Skillet Lickers is that they shared many of the same personnel.

Georgia Organ Grinders: Clayton McMichen, f; Bert Layne, f; Fate Norris, bj; Melvin Dupree, g; Lowe Stokes, organ. (April 9-10 1929)

Skillet Licker lineup from that time period: Clayton McMichen, f; Gid Tanner, f; Lowe Stokes, f; Fate Norris, bj; Riley Puckett, g.

My favorite lyrics are the ones Richie Shulberg (Citizen Kafka) made up for the Wretched Refuse String Band some years ago:
The wheels of Karma go round and round
Sometimes you're up and sometimes you're down
The wheels of Karma will make you dance
If you're not good here, you come back ANTS

I hear "Creole Belle/Richland Woman Blues" and "Back up and Push" as very different songs.


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Subject: Lyr Add: BACK UP AND PUSH
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:53 PM

Raymond McLain sent me these words. I think they were written by his dad, but I'm not sure.

Did you ever wonder about the riddle,
What kind of spirit lives in the fiddle?
Is that old Satan, right there a-waitin'
Or is it tuned with the angel band?

Back up and push. Back up and push.
Back off from sin. Let glory in.
You can't go wrong singing this song.
Back up and push away.

If you let the devil play on your senses,
Prepare to suffer the consequences.
The fullest measure of worldly pleasure
Can only send you to the roaring fire.

Back up and push. Back up and push.
Back off from sin. Let glory in.
You can't go wrong singing this song.
Back up and push away.


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