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BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?

Stu 18 Oct 06 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Terry K 18 Oct 06 - 05:31 AM
John MacKenzie 18 Oct 06 - 05:47 AM
Teribus 18 Oct 06 - 05:59 AM
Grab 18 Oct 06 - 06:06 AM
Divis Sweeney 18 Oct 06 - 06:44 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Oct 06 - 08:51 AM
artbrooks 18 Oct 06 - 10:01 AM
Liz the Squeak 18 Oct 06 - 10:08 AM
Bunnahabhain 18 Oct 06 - 10:29 AM
Midchuck 18 Oct 06 - 10:37 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 06 - 10:47 AM
Bunnahabhain 18 Oct 06 - 11:14 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 06 - 11:24 AM
Stu 18 Oct 06 - 11:42 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 06 - 11:45 AM
BuckMulligan 18 Oct 06 - 11:49 AM
jacqui.c 18 Oct 06 - 11:59 AM
Mrrzy 18 Oct 06 - 12:20 PM
GUEST 18 Oct 06 - 12:42 PM
Midchuck 18 Oct 06 - 01:01 PM
BuckMulligan 18 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM
NH Dave 18 Oct 06 - 03:09 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Oct 06 - 04:36 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Oct 06 - 04:37 PM
Bunnahabhain 18 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Oct 06 - 04:40 PM
Bunnahabhain 18 Oct 06 - 06:49 PM
kendall 18 Oct 06 - 07:16 PM
GUEST 18 Oct 06 - 07:30 PM
Grab 18 Oct 06 - 08:15 PM
Bert 19 Oct 06 - 01:21 AM
GUEST,Terry K 19 Oct 06 - 04:22 AM
GUEST 21 Oct 06 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 21 Oct 06 - 03:58 PM

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Subject: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:18 AM

The cheap air travel boom has meant a huge rise in people using aeroplanes to get about. and coupled with the fact the air industry has done sod all to reduce it's carbon emissions the world now has to face up to the question: Are we selfless enough to give up cheap air travel and save the planet for the next generation?

What alternatives are there to the loud, mega-polluting machines we use these days?

Will you be curtailing the amount of air travel you do, or don't you give a toss?

Will air travel become the preserve of the rich only (although I suspect a large proportion of the world's population already thinks it is)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:31 AM

I went to Genoa boat show last week at a cost of a penny each way plus some taxes. I could have flown Alitalia at a cost of some hundreds of pounds but chose Ryan. Brand new plane, spotlessly clean, great flights. I still can't get my head round the economics of it but I don't think I'm unusual in taking the opportunity while I can. Is it right? - probably not and I agree that something should be done about it, but there you go!

cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:47 AM

Nobody but a few self sacrificing lentil eaters will stop, yet stop it must, so the only real answer is to put up the costs.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:59 AM

stigweard - 18 Oct 06 - 04:18 AM

"- the air industry has done sod all to reduce it's carbon emissions"

On the contrary, aero-engine manufacturers have done a great deal to reduce emissions and improve efficiency, aero-fuel has also been improved vastly over the past twenty years. Larger and fewer aircraft.

I would tend to agree with Goik - "the only real answer is to put up the costs".


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Grab
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:06 AM

Think you're right, Giok. While they're there, I'll use them. There's also the question of alternatives - I could just as easily take the train up to Edinburgh, for example, but it's no cheaper than the plane. Make the planes more expensive and the alternatives cheaper, and we might see some changes.

Teribus, the drive has been for efficiency to save money on fuel bills, not out of any desire for greenness. And again, emissions are only improved by more efficient combustion for the same reason. Also, they're not really the "air industry" - the "air industry" are the airline operators, who understandably have been taking full advantage of the tax loophole on jet fuel to get as many planes in the air as possible.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:44 AM

Yes the government will push the taxes up and won't put the money back in to reduce it's carbon emissions.

There was a programme on here last night about the state of our roads. 50 years ago 100% of what you paid in road tax went to the up keep of our roads. Today it's only about 20%.

What gets me is the sunflower seed eaters bang on about governments not doing enough about carbon levels. At a recent meeting over here I saw a hell of a lot of four by fours parked. Very few bikes.

Cheap flights are great, I have visited most of Europe over the past few years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 08:51 AM

I don't use it.

Aircraft operators should pay full tax on their fuel, and they should not be exempted from liability when they lose stuff or kill people, a consequence of the theftuous international transport conventions.

And they shouldn't be allowed to dodge tax by registering aircraft offshore or notionally putting companies in onshore taxhavens like the Irish enterprise zones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 10:01 AM

Cheap flights? A European phenomenon, I assume. We are driving (3 days each way) to the Getaway because flying would cost about three times as much, including meals and motels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 10:08 AM

There was something on TV last night (UK, after 11.00pm) that suggested you take your flights as you want, but you get someone else to reduce their carbon emissions as payback. You fly to say... Jamaica, you have to change 30 lightbulbs to energy saving, convert 1 driver to using LPG/unleaded or bicycle and plant a tree.

Nice idea in theory, but how many people would be honest or pushy enough to enforce it?

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 10:29 AM

No I won't, as I can't, having fairly much ceased already. The only time I will do so now is when there is no other realistic choice, such as when you're travelling in a large group to a out of the way destination.

This is about the only time I would advocate pushing up taxes, but Airlines should pay fuel duty. There needs to be international agreement on this though, especially in Europe. There's no point in one country putting a tax on it, and watching the flights divert to the airport just over the border.

Grab, where are you that the train only costs as much as the Plane? I have to be very luck and organised to avoid the train being twice the cost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 10:37 AM

What bugs me is that the (US) government is determined to blow infinite tax dollars to keep the airlines and the trucking industry healthy, and grudges every cent for the railroads. We let passenger rail go to hell in favor of the automobile for shorter trips and air for long ones, and nobody will admit that it was a mistake.

A 150-MPH express train could leave New York at suppertime and be in, say, Salt Lake City after breakfast. And how the hell is anyone going to hijack it?

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 10:47 AM

Putting up the cost is NOT the answer as cost have never kept people from polluting the planet for their own convience. Cars, petrol, RVs, ATVs, skidoos, seadoos, four bath houses for two people, gas mowers, leaf blowers, whipper snippers, electric can openers..all that vanity and gadget stuff. What we really need to do is start rationing stuff so that each home gets a certain amount of petrol, a certain amount of hydro, water etc. One car per house, one bath per house. We get two flights a year and no more. then we must decide what to do with what we have been given. All of us are spoiled by over abundance and we need to bloody well get over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:14 AM

Guest, try economics 101. Price is how any free scoiety rations things in most circumstances. Countries just choose what to pay for collectively, and what to leave to individuals.

The Soviet Union tried the alternative. That worked out great...


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:24 AM

Price and free society are not synonomous.. in fact they often are at opposing ends of an ideological committment. Price has to do with free market..free society does not. Economics 101, if you don't mind my saying so, is basically a permission slip for over consumption. You cannot let the market rule when so much is at stake..ethics 101.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:42 AM

"Price is how any free scoiety rations things in most circumstance"

Price is how capitalism rations things, not free society.

"The Soviet Union tried the alternative. That worked out great..."

But this isn't working out great either. I really worry about the world my todder niece and nephew are inheriting, and capitalism does not supply the solutions to the problems we face as a global community.

I think the real problem is everyone doesn't give a toss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:45 AM

I think the real problem is that no one wants to give up the toys .


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:49 AM

So we achieve a free society by banning stuff, or the gummint otherwise taking control? I musta missed something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:59 AM

I will continue to use the airlines, and to get the cheapest flights possible, as I now live in Maine and my children and grandchildren are in the UK.

I try to get back a couple of times a year to see family and friends and there really is no alternative to flying. It's a tiring and uncomfortable trip but that I accept as the alternative would be not to see my family and, until flying prices me out of the market, I'll go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:20 PM

I am reminded of the joke back when that cheap airline had a plane crash in the Florida Everglades...

Q:What did one alligator say to the other?
A:Pretty good food for such a cut-rate airline!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:42 PM

We already ban things..ddt, fags, certain pestisides, guns, in a few places. If we do not ban reckless overconsuption there will be no society left, free or otherwise.There is no way we can continue to allow money to buy what we do not need then call it freedom of choice.We are far to consumption oriented, shopping is now the only employer in many towns and villages...can this be good ? As for flying, well, don't ban it, but let us control it so that we all may enjoy a future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:01 PM

"Banning" something is fine if you have a magic wand to make it disappear from the planet.

Every time you ban something that a significant number of people want, you turn that item into a black market commodity, improve the financial health of the criminal community a little more, and deprive the community of the benefits of the tax revenue from it.

That's my take, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM

Sure, we already ban things, and I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I'm querying your introduction of the phrase "free society" into a discussion that - actually - has nothing to do with "freedom." Merely wondering what the point of introducing that phrase/notion into the rhetoric was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: NH Dave
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 03:09 PM

Around the thinking world, people have demanded that airlines stop or reduce noise pollution, and most airliners have modifiec the exhaust end of their engines to reduce jet noise. When the same number of people start demanding that airlines reduce atmospheric polution, the airlines will switch to less polluting engines, and not before.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:36 PM

Hmm, a dirigiste economic system allegedly did not work, now it seems capitalism does not work, maybe Karl Marx was right??


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:37 PM

Incidentally, success in capitalism is not about the quality of the product, but about success in promotion - eg MacDonalds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM

I have a feeling capitalism shares something with democracy, ie they are both the worst possible system, until you look at any of the others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:40 PM

I still don't understand why they have to fly so high and endanger those within and below if they crash...why can't on the flat places of earth, such as midwest US, they fly 20 feet off the ground at 200 mph say..oh yes that is more of a train...but the day will come I am sure where they ride on a cushion of air and are low to the ground or even water. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:49 PM

MG:

Power lines, trees, etc

Avoiding most of the weather.

Noise.

Plus, the fuel economy at altitude is far better than ground level.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 07:16 PM

I fly only when there is no reasonable choice, and that is seldom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 07:30 PM

Actually, I did not introduce the concept of a "free society", someone else did. As for the arguement that banning things benefits only the criminal classes, that is not quite true. Many things have been banned that have not turned into a pseudo drug trade, as in some of my previous examples od ddt, pesticides, feeding offal to cattle and so on. As for depriving the state of tax revenue by implementing bans: with all due respect, that is a very poor reason to continue to pollute the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Grab
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 08:15 PM

Bunn, I only said "no cheaper" - that leaves "more expensive" as an option. Which given rail privatisation is pretty common... :-/

Actually, if you factor in airport parking then it's not too uncommon for the train to be cheaper than the plane, especially if you're travelling out on Friday and coming back Sunday. But getting tickets at a fair price is a sod (they make you jump through every hoop they can) and it's rarely as quick, even if you take into account the 2 hours waiting. If you happen to be on a mainline that goes directly where you want to be (or close to) then you're sorted - otherwise not a hope.

Which is a bit disappointing really, when it's much cheaper to go to Malaga than Morecambe, or Brussels than Brighton. And they wonder why the British tourist industry is only coming back slowly - well duh!

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 01:21 AM

...theftuous... Nice word Richard.

GUEST mg. That's a hovercraft. Good idea but bloody noisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:22 AM

I had occasion to need a train trip from Darlington to Stevenage, say 200 miles, and found that the only way I could actually get a seat would be to travel first class at a cost of £240. Earlier in the same year I had flown to Sydney, say 10,000 miles, for about the same money. I would love to travel by train but in UK it simply doesn't make sense (and I have to say I find Sydney a nicer place to go than Stevenage).

cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:00 PM

Us dummies in Canada tore up our train tyracks, can ya believe it ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will you stop using cheap air travel?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 03:58 PM

No! And that is why the planet is doomed! It might not even reach 2050 without a huge wipeout of the human race.


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