Subject: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: GUEST,Richie Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:47 AM Hi, I'm looking for any lyrics or info on "There's a Hard Time Coming" by C. F. Sussdorff written in 1843. This is not the Steven Foster song and I'm not sure of the relationship to "Down on Penny's Farm." It's been recorded by Riley Puckett and John Carson. This is all I have on C. F. Sussdorff: C. F. Sussdorff married Louisa C. Hagen. Apparently lived in NC. In 1851: March 12th - Mr. Sussdorff gave a magic lantern show in Salem. (1) April 30th - Mr. Sussdorff gave a magic lantern show in Raleigh. (22) So I'm looking for the lyrics to "Hard Times" by C. F. Sussdorff or any other versions. Richie |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: GUEST,Richie Date: 20 Oct 06 - 01:02 AM Here's a bit more info: Hard Times Sussdorff, C. F There's a Hard Time Coming [Me II-P 1] - Sussdorff, C. F. Rt - Hard, Hard Times Hard, Hard Times Rt - Down on Penny's Farm ; Hard Times of Old England ; Rigs of the Time ; Hard Times (Wherever I Go) ; All In, Down and Out Blues ; There's a Hard Time Coming 1. Carson, Fiddlin' John. Old Hen Cackled and the Rooster's Gonna Crow, Rounder 1003, LP (1978), trk# A.02 [1925/06/24] 2. Lomax, John A. & Alan Lomax / American Ballads and Folk Songs, MacMillan, Bk (1934), p.332 3. Bell, Farwell A.. Cox, John Harrington / Folk-Songs of the South, Dover, Sof (1967/1925), p512/#183b [1917] (Hard Times) 4. Blondahl, Omar (Sagebrush Sam). Down to the Sea Again, Rodeo RLP 7, LP (196?), trk# A.05 5. Brand, Oscar. Laughing America, Tradition TLP 1014, LP (1960), trk# B.02 (Hard Times) 6. Christl, Margaret; & Ian Robb. Barley Grain for Me, Folk Legacy FSI-062, LP (1976), trk# 2 (Hard Times) 7. Hickerson, Joe. Joe Hickerson, Folk Legacy FSI-039, LP (1970), trk# B.01 (Hard Times) 8. Holdstock and MacLeod. Winter in the Wood, Holdstock HDMC ?, CD (2003), trk# 8 [1985-90] 9. Peacock, Ken. Songs and Ballads of Newfoundland, Folkways FG 3505, LP (1956), trk# A.05 (Hard Times) 10. Steele, Pete. Banjo Tunes and Songs, Folkways FS 3828, LP (1958), trk# 6 (Song of Hard Times) 11. Welsch, Roger. Sweet Nebraska Land, Folkways FH 5337, LP (1965), trk# 11 Hard Times Coming 12. Gellert, Dan; and Shoofly. Forked Deer, Marimac 9000, Cas (1986), trk# A.05a Thanks, Richie |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Oct 06 - 02:01 PM Hi, Richie - the only CD version I can find is here on the Document collection of the works of Fiddlin' John Carson - there's a sound clip at the link. Also a Riley Puckett recording here (click) -Joe- |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: GUEST,Richie Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:12 PM Thanks Joe, I saw your thread and info under "It's hard, hard times." I have John Carson's version but it's hard to understand. If anyone has the lyrics to either one it would be appreciated. I'm trying find info on the origin of "Down on Penny's Farm." The real question is: what is CF Sussdorff's version and where can it be found? Perhaps this can shed some light on several of the hard time songs. Anyone? |
Subject: ADD: There's a Good Time Coming (Mackay) From: GUEST,Richie Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:36 AM "There's a Good Time Coming" by Foster(1846) has the same lyric with Good instead of Hard. It's possible that someone could have taken the lyrics (not by Foster by the way) and changed them, keeping only the first line. I know it's a stretch but... THERE'S A GOOD TIME COMING (music by Foster Words by Charles Mackay) To Miss Mary D. Keller, of Pittsburg, PA. Lines from the London Daily News. 1. There'a a good time coming, boy's, A good time coming; We may not live to see the day, But earth shall glisten to the ray. Of the good time coming, Cannon balls may aid the truthm But thought's a weapon stronger; We'll win our battle by its aid;-- Wait a little longer. 2. There's a good time coming, boys, A good time coming, A good time coming: The pen shall supersede the sword, And right, not might, shall be the lord, In the good time coming; Worth, not birth, shall rule mankind, And be acknowledg'd stronger; The proper impulse has been giv'n; Wait a little longer. 3. There's a good time coming, boys, A good time coming, A good time coming; War in all mens eyes shall be A monster of iniquity. In the good time coming, Nations shall not quarrel then, To prove which is the stronger; Nor slaughter men for glory's sake;-- Wait a little longer. 4. There's a good time coming, boy's, A good time coming, A good time coming; Shameful rivalries of creed Shall not make the martyr bleed. In the good time coming, Religion shall be shorn of pride, And flourish all the longer; And Charity shall trim her lamp;-- Wait a little longer. 5. There's a good time coming, boys, A good time coming, A good time coming; And a poor mans family, Shall not be his misery, In the good time coming; Ev'ry child shall be a help, To make his right arm stronger; The happier he, the more he has; Wait a little longer. 6. There's a good time coming, boys, A good time coming, A good time coming; Little children shall not toil Under, or above the soil. In the good time coming, But shall play in healthful fields, Till limbs and minds grow stronger; And ev'ry one shall read and write;-- Wait a little longer. 7. There's a good time coming, boys, A good time coming, A good time coming; The people shall be temperate, And shall love instead of hate, In the good time coming. They shall use, and not abuse, And make all virtue stronger; The reformation has begun;-- Wait a little longer. 8. There's a good time coming, boys, A good time coming, A good time coming; Let us aid it all we can, Ev'ry woman ev'ry man, The good time coming. Smallest helps, if rightly giv'n, Make the impulse stronger; 'Twill be strong enough one day;-- Wait a little longer. Click for Stephen Foster Thread |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Jim Dixon Date: 22 Oct 06 - 10:48 PM Here's my attempt at transcribing the sound sample of Fiddlin' John Carson's recording at Amazon.com: CHORUS: B'lieve it on my soul, there's a hard time a-comin'. Yes, O Lord, there's a hard time a-comin'. VERSE: Preacher in the pulpit, preachin' mighty bold, Preachin' for the dollar and not for the soul. God only serves it (?) twelve times a year, And you'll in time go to ... (*) but the preacher don't care. [*Deliberate pause here; I suppose the missing word is "hell."] |
Subject: Lyr Add: THERE'S A HARD TIME COMING (John Carson) From: GUEST Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:39 PM Jim, Here's what I have so far (haven't spent much time at it). Need to get Riley Puckett's version. THERE'S A HARD TIME COMING John Carson (Now if) a man wants to marry and the will is good, the will is good …?..all around….? And the hair on his face looks like a Billie-goat CHORUS Believe-a to my soul there's a hard time a-coming. Yes oh Lord there's a hard time coming. Dirty old..?..he'll puff and he'll blow Take your plow and all go to hoe All's ya gonna make....? And when get done he'll double it down CHORUS Believe-a to my soul there's a hard time a-coming. Yes oh Lord there's a hard time coming. Preacher in the pulpit, preachin' mighty bold Preachin' for the dollar and not for the soul. God only serves it twelve time a year And you die and go to (hell) but the preacher don't care CHORUS Believe-a to my soul there's a hard time a-coming. Yes oh Lord there's a hard time coming. There's the old doctor actin' so smart I believe to my soul he's the worst in the lot Says he's gonna cure you for half your (?) And when you're dead he'll sue you for the rest CHORUS Believe-a to my soul there's a hard time a-coming. Yes oh Lord there's a hard time coming. (Now if) a maid wants to marry and the will is good, the will is good You put up your hair and you powder up the face And you hide your snuff (?) in a safe old place CHORUS Believe-a to my soul there's a hard time a-coming. Yes oh Lord there's a hard time coming. |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Oct 06 - 09:24 PM A copy of "Hard Times: a comic song composed and arr. for the piano forte," by Sussdorff, C. F., 1848, may be found at Library of Congress, Performing Arts Reading Room (Madison, LM113); Call Number M1.A13 S (Case. |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: GUEST,Richie Date: 26 Oct 06 - 09:56 PM So can I call the Library of Congress and have them make copies and mail it to me? I go up to DC a couple times a year but... Richie |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Oct 06 - 09:58 PM Found the 1843 printing. I will post in a few minutes. |
Subject: Lyr Add: HARD TIMES (C F Sussdorff) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Oct 06 - 10:56 PM HARD TIMES, A Comic Song C. F. S.; 1843 (Sussdorff) 1. Come listen awhile, and I'll sing you a song, Concerning the times and it shall not be long, Now everybody is trying to buy; And cheating each other, I cannot tell why, And it's hard, hard times. 2. From Father to Mother, from Sister to Brother, From Cousin to Cousin are cheating each other; Since cheating has become so much in the fashion, I'm afraid to my soul it'll spread all over the nation; And it's hard, hard times. 3. Oh! there is the Baker. By baking he eats, And so does the Butcher by killing his meat, They kick up the steelyard and make it weigh down, And swear it's right if it lacks twenty pounds; And it's hard, hard times. 4. And here is the Lawyer as you plainly see, He'll plead you a case for a very large fee, He'll plead you a case and tell you it's right; And when he is gone, he'll say it's a lie. And it's hard, hard times. 5. And here is the Doctor I liked to forget, I think to my soul is the worst of the flock, He'll tell you he'll cure you for half you possess, And when you are dead, he'll take all the rest. And it's hard, hard times. 6. And here comes the Young Ladies I lik'd to have missed, I think to my soul they are fond to be kissed, They act the coquet when they have the sense, And tell you to call on sometime hence. And it's hard, hard times. 7. Oh there are the Old Maids who ought to get clear, For the Boys won't have them and I think it's for fear; And after they get married if they should do wrong, They are sure to have their heads cracked with the tongues. And it's hard, hard times. 8. And here comes the Bachelor who is every man's scorn, He is like an old garment all tattered and torn. The girls and widows all unite, to toss him skyhigh, And I think it's quite right. And it's hard, hard times. 9. And here is the Widow who I ought to let clear, But to finish my song she must be mentioned here, She is so well acquainted with catching the beaus, She'll take in a fellow before ever he knows, And it's hard, hard times. 10. And here are the Young Men the worst of the whole, They'll tell you they love you to their very soul; They'll tell you they love you when they are sitting by, And when they are gone they'll swear it's a lie. And it's hard, hard times. Sheet music at American Memory, on which the composer's name is given only as C. F. S. Published by W. R. Bayley, Philadelphia. At the foot of page one with the copyright data (not readable), the author's name is written in manuscript. At the top of page one, also in ink, is "Deposited Aug. 8, 1843, by C. F. Sussdorff (signature) as author. http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.music/sm1843.390350 A rather poor version of the song, done better in English and American song sheets, but concerned more with people (widows, young men and women, bachelors, etc.) rather than occupations. A much longer version of "Hard Times," also at American Memory, is on a song sheet published by Leonard Deming, Boston, some 22 verses, but all concerning occupations. Also approx. mid-19thc. but undated. |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: GUEST Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:13 PM Great Work Q, It's easy to see where John Carson's version and the following versions come from. Compare these entries from Brown: HARD TIMES #332B from Brown. Come all ye young people, I sing you a song Which is not very long, How everybody is trying to trade And cheating each other, I cannot tell why, From father to mother and sister and brother And cousin and kinfolks are cheating each other. And it's hard, hard, hard, hard times. There is the old blacksmith I'd like to've forgot; I believe in my soul he's the worst of the lot. He'll shoe your horses and sharpen your plows And at the end of the year he'll drive off your cows. And it's hard, hard times. There is the old shoemaker I'd like to've forgot I believe in my soul he's the worst of the lot. He'll go stitching along an inch at a clip And he'll swear by Joe it never will rip. And it's hard, hard times. There is the old preacher I'd like to've forgot; I believe in my soul he's the worst of the lot. He'll go to church twelve times in the year, And if you die and go to the devil he really don't care. And it's hard, hard times. There is the young lady I'd like to've forgot: I believe in my soul she's the worst of the lot. She'll slick up her hair and to church she will go, And what is it for but to catch her a beau? And it's hard, hard times. #332B 'Hard Times.' From Miss Jewell Robbins (later Mrs. C. P. Perdue), Pekin, Montgomery county, some time between 1921 and 1924. With the tune. Basically the same text as A but reduced by omissions from twelve stanzas to five and with numerous minor alterations. #332C 'Hard Times.' Reported by Vernon Sechrist of Thomasville, Davidson county, in 1928, "as remembered by Mrs. Augusta Fouts at the age of 77 years." The first stanza only. #332D 'Hard Times.' From Miss Pearle Webb of Pineola, Avery county. The tune, and a fragmentary stanza not found in A or B: I really do believe it's for the sake of old They starve the women and the children out of bed, And it's hard times, hard times. |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: GUEST,Richie Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:20 PM Now look at the beginning of the Bentley's "Down on Penny's Farm": Come you ladies and you gentlemen And listen to my song, I'll sing it to you right, but you might think it's wrong, May make you mad, but I mean no harm, It's all about the renters on Penny's farm. CHORUS: It's hard times in the country, Down on Penny's farm. Looks like Down on Penny's Farm is also based loosely (The opening lines are identical) on Sussdorff's "Hard Times." Richie |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: GUEST Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:53 PM Hard Times must have been fairly popular, spawning various rewrites during the 1800's. Here's a link to a different Hard Times song sheet at American Memory:http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?amss:14:./temp/~ammem_iBG9::@@@mdb=mcc,gottscho,detr,nfor,wpa,aap,cwar,bbpix,cowellbib,cal Richie |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:13 AM I think that Guest is suggesting that "Hard Times" versions with a similar first verse to "Out on Penny's Farm" are multiple, and I would agree. Although 1843 seems early, I think others preceded it. It's getting late, so tomorrow I will post the very long version published by Deming. Or just part of it. It could be a little older than Sussdorff's. The first verse is in the same vein: Well, since you request it, I'll sing you a song, And tell you how people do jumble along; But the times are so bad, that we scarcely can live, So I nothing shall ask, if you've nothing to give, In these hard times. |
Subject: Lyr Add: HARD TIMES (extended) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Oct 06 - 05:47 PM http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/amss:@field(DOCID+@lit(as10514a))
Lyr. Add: HARD TIMES |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Goose Gander Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:21 PM This song seems close in theme to The Dodger Song I wonder if there is any direction relationship between the two? |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Goose Gander Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:23 PM Sorry, that should have been "direct relationship". |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:49 PM A while back I posted a song found in Belden that belongs to this same group. Belden traces the satirical form back to examples as old as 1614 (Shirburn Ballads). I won't re-post, but here are a couple of versesfor comparison: SONG OF THE TIMES Coll. 1905, Missouri) And I see the married ladies wear satins for dress When their husbands are bankrupt and in great distress. They had better be at home washing up dishes, Darning old stockings, and mending their husband's old breeches, These hard times, these hard times. And there's the old doctor, I like to forgot. I do think in my soul he's the worst of the flock; He'll promise to cure you, for half you possess, And when you are dead, he will go for the rest. Oh, it's hard times, it's hard times. Thread 74176: Origin Dodger Song A version of "Hard Times," coll. in Michigan, 1934, has versions of some of the same verses as those in the Deming song sheet, e. g. verse 21, the Baker: The Baker he'll cheat you in the bread that you eat, And so will the Butcher in the weight of his meat; He'll tip up his scales and make them go down, And he'll swear it is weight when it lacks half a pound, it lacks half a pound, And so it is hard times wherever you go. The last verse echoes the first of "Down on Penny's Farm:" You've listened a while and give ear to my song, Therefore you can't say I've sung anything wrong. If there's anyone here from my song takes offence, They can go to the devil and seek recompense, and seek recompense, And so it is hard times wherever you go. pp. 767-768, Duncan Emrich, 1974, "American Folk Poetry," Little, Brown and Company. |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:19 PM Michael, I agree that there are relationships among these cheating songs, but at the moment I am just trying to find examples that show differences and am leaving the thinking to later. |
Subject: RE: origin lyrics: Hard Times From: GUEST,Richie Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:17 PM Here are corrected lyrics for John Carson's version: LYR ADD: THERE'S A HARD TIME COMING Fiddlin' John Carson Transcribed by Lyle 1. Old men want to marry, and they would if they could, Could if they would; Go all around in their old sock coats, And the hair on their face looks like a billygoat. CHORUS: B'lieve-a to my soul there's a hard time a-comin'. Yes, oh Lord, there's a hard time a-comin'. 2. There's the old blacksmith, puff and he'll blow, Make you a plow and also a hoe. Says he's gonna make them for half of the amount, And when it is done, he'll double the account. CHO. 3. Preacher in the pulpit, preachin' mighty bold, Preachin' for the dollar and not for the soul. Ride in his circuit twelve times a year, And you can die and got to (hell) but the preacher don't care. CHO. 4. There's the old doctor I like to forgot, I b'lieve to my soul he's the worst in the lot. Says he's gonna cure you for half you possess, And you are dead, he'll sue you for the rest. CHO. 5. Old maids want to marry, would if they could, Could if they would; They bob off their hair and they powder up their face, And they hide the old snuff in a particular place. CHO Richie |
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