football songs are they folk or traditional songs

Subject: IHAD A WHEELBARROW
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 01:13 PM

I had a wheelbarrow but the wheel fell off, is the song sung by NOTTS COUNTY FOOTBALL FANS.This song was composed by the fans spontaneously when the wheelbarrow [containing the meat pies ] wheel fell off.
now this falls into the category of a folk song [ songof the people]and a traditional song [ no one knows its authorship]the tune is, on top of old smokey.

Subject: RE: lyr req: I Had a Wheelbarrow
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM

Hi, Dick - when you start a thread, it's important to be clear about what you want to do with it. I assume you're asking for the lyrics of this song, so I added a "lyrics request" tag and removed the ALLCAPS from the thread title.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: lyr req: I Had a Wheelbarrow
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 02:05 PM

dear joe, no the lyrics I know, Could you retitle it, football songs are they folk and or traditional songs.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:37 PM

OK. We have another thread on the Wheelbarrow Song. Try to be a little more careful about how you title threads and what you say in the first message, Dick. Oftentimes, it's hard to understand what you want to talk about.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:39 PM

In a way, they're a bit like undisciplined jodies, I suggest! A distinctive aspect of popular culture, in UK at least. Wonder if anyone's done any work on them? Gotta be a stack of PhD's in a store room in the Joe Bloggs University of Middle England....

Regards
p.s. Or better - they move to a different drummer.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Kweku
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:44 PM

well, from my view point concerning football songs and its relationship to folk music, i could say that the game of football is part of peoples culture now. so songs accompanying them comes naturally, like play ground songs.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:47 PM

Captain Birdseye, you wrote that the football Wheelbarrow song uses the "On Top Of Old Smokey" tune.

I found this post in the other thread for which a link is provided:

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: WHEELBARROW SONG
From: GUEST,Ian, Nottingham UK - PM
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM

Infinately better is the chant sung by fans of Notts County Football Club:

The Wheelbarrow Song


We had a wheelbarrow,
The wheel fell off,
We had a wheelbarrow,
And the wheel fell off!!!!!

Ian

-snip-

I'm trying to sense how those words mentioned by GUEST,Ian, Nottingham UK fit with that tune. Are there additional words?

Also, when during the game do fans sing this particular song? Is it when the team is winning or do they sing this at various times during the game to taunt the other team? I gather that each team has a specific song. Would you please post other songs with their respective teams?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:31 PM

It's a singing tradition all right, though a fairly new one. But it's veryb tied to the situation that produces them. I can't envisage anyone singing many of them in a folk club. Though in a pub after a match on th etelly maybe.

Here is a website the soccer songs and chants homepage It's got the words for songs and chants from leading clubs in a whole range of European nations.

And here are someBrazilian ones

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:33 PM

Captain, I was always under the impression that "The Wheelbarrow Song" emanated from hearing one Notts County supporter (yes there are some)cry in exasperation that "watching Notts County is like pushing a wheelbarrow uphill without a wheel" I will ask some County supporters that I know if that is the definitive version, although as a card carrying Forest fan I will have to approch with caution.
No Azizi there are no more words or verses - thats the lot; hardly the equivalent of "The Outlandish Knight"

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:45 PM

Thanks for that info, DaveS & McGrath of Harlow.

I'll check out that link.

And as to football theme songs, the Pittsburgh Steelers {American football team} have a number of "fight songs", including the most widely known 2004 song "Here We Go Steelers".

Click http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06020/641317.stm [Steelers fight songs to help fans sing team to victory; Friday, January 20, 2006; By John Hayes, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette] for an article about this "tradition".

There are also audio links to four of these songs.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:58 PM

Songs about football and so forth are a bit of a different category from the chants of supporters, though they can overlap.

Here's a YouTube video of a song that I believe managed the pop/crowd overlap pretty well (for thye chorus), in the Aussie Rules Football context - Up there Cazaly

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 06:48 PM

Charlton supporters sing The Red Red Robin,WestHam sing; Im for ever Blowing Bubbles, Celtic sing Fields OF athenry, Liverpool sing Youll Never Walk Alone, I dont know what Darlington sing, but as they are nicknamed the Quakers they probably dont sing at all.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Lox
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:54 PM

I'm Probably pointing out the obvious here, but I feel that it might be useful to put a historical perspective on things. (in brief)

Traditional folk music and culture were hit hardest by the industrial revolution.

When people were moved off the land and into cities, they were uprooted from their traditions, which became pretty much irrelevant to them as they adapted to survive in completely differnt circumstances.

Peoples sense of identity was completely undermined, and part of redefining themselves included asserting a new definition of who they were. There weren't many opportunities to do this, but when team games like football came along, and rivalries and competition between different industrial centres developed, they became essential aspects of urban identity and culture.

Sadly, I think that for most urban folk, their chosen musical tradition is less to do with their football roots and has more to do with popular culture. If you put on "Angels" by Robbie Williams at a football match, the crowd will sing along.

A better example would probably be "we are the champions".

Unfortunately I don't think Football culture was around long enough before the advent of "pop" music to have begun to develop a sophisticated "soundtrack" of its own.

And so I (probably) reopen an old mudcat can of worms regarding urban folk vs traditional folk.

The folk revival remembers roots which otherwise might be forgotten. And as I am always banging on about, roots are very important.

Too tired to construct proper sentence.

Must go to bed.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:06 PM

No

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:33 PM

Oh well, I suppose you expect caveman art from cavemen.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:45 PM

I think Norwich City probably have one of the oldest, possibly written around 1905 by a director, Albert Smith. I think I might have posted it here before but here it is:

In the days to call, which we have left behind,
Our boyhood's glorious game,
And our youthful vigour has declined
With its mirth and its lonesome end;
You will think of the time, the happy time,
Its memories fond recall
When in the bloom of our youthful prime
We've kept upon the ball.

Chorus:
Kick off, throw it in, have a little scrimmage,
Keep it low, a splendid rush, bravo win or die;
On the ball City, never mind the danger,
Steady on, Now's your chance,
Hurrah! We've scored a goal

Let all tonight then drink with me
To the football we love,
And wish it may be successful be 11/7/200
As other games of old,
And in one grand unite toast
Join player, game and song,
And fondly pledge your pride and toast,
Success to the City club.

The chorus is still sung at matches.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:49 PM

On the basis of that parallel you drew there, Richard, it would seem to suggest that you must think football crowds have produced extremely fine specimens of traditional song. Lasceaux Cave, France - 15,000 BC

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:02 PM

Game, set, and match, out of their own mouths.

Oh God I wish their bodies were as extinct as their brains.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:13 PM

You must hate the working class Mr Bridge. Have they let you down? Not singing the articulate literary creations you thing they were able to evolve with no outside help by passing from mouth to mouth when they couldn't read or write and worked on the land for their bread?

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: GUEST,Womble
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:26 PM

From Wimbledon in the old days of Plough Lane:

We'll be running 'round Plough Lane with our willies hanging out,
We'll be running 'round Plough Lane with our willies hanging out,
We'll be running 'round Plough Lane,
Running 'round Plough Lane,
Running 'round Plough Lane with our willies hanging out.
Singing I've got a bigger one than you, (no you aint!)
Singing I've got a bigger one than you, (no you aint!)
Singing I've got a bigger one,
I've got a bigger one,
I've got a bigger one than you.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:37 PM

I think maybe they do these things better in Iraq - Iraq football song (with football highlights)

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 04:58 AM

I like the Norwich City one,It seems to have a more generous spirit, instead of vilifing the opposition, it praise their own team.
THE NOTTS COUNTY one I like because it admits that theyre not very good, but theyre still county fans and they have to make the most of it, stiff upper lip[ we cant even afford a DECENT WHEELBARROW]Let alone decent players.
I believe Richard Grainger was commissioned to write a team song for Middlesborough, and performed it at one of their matches.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 05:10 AM

My post above refers to a football song of considerable loathsomeness that had been posted immediately before my post but has now been removed. I hope that is now clear.


I once lived fairly near the White City ground, and the morons on the way by car to the ritual conflict would double park up all the available side roads, blocking residents in, blocking emergency vehicles such as fire engines out, while those on their way by tube train and on foot made the public transport and the shops a no-go zone.


Interestingly, most of the keenest players and followers at school of association football were among the stupidest thugs in the school, too.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:17 AM

Well i think the one Richard refers to was deleted because of the poster who had several posts remove rather than the content. Like it or not, "Your goining get your fu**ing head kicked in" is a famiiar chant to many and is part of (ok an undesirable yob/thug part) our football heritage.

I'd like to think this sort of chant is on the way out though. The only club I know a little bit about is Norwich who have made efforts to become more "family orientated". I believe a "song" "who the fu**ing hell are you?" can be heard in a small area of the Barclay stand known as the Snake Pit but I believe much has been pretty well cut out.

Anyway, back to songs. One of the best known surely must be the one to the tune of Land of Hope and Glory, clubs of choice of course but:

We hate Nottingham Forest
We hate Liverpool too
We hate Manchester United
But Norwich we love you.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:48 AM

I couldnt understand the iraqi football song,but I imagine they sing the praises of George waLker Bush.
Does The Hartlepool one involve anything about monkeys.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:54 AM

Southampton have, when the saints.
oh and Cork city the banksof my own lovely lee.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: fat B****rd
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:56 AM

Curious thing your Soccer song. In a lot of cases nobody writes them down but they seem to be well known by all devotees.
Living in the southern North East we have supporters of several local teams and the ubiquitous Man. U. I've heard them all singing bits of terrace chants to "My Old Man" (Music Hall), "Hey Jude" and "If You're Happy And You Know It" to name but a few.                   Sadly there are some very "bad taste" lyrics in use but they seem to be in the minority.
Folk or Traditional ?? Dunno.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 11:29 AM

Having mis-spent countless hours of my teenage years on the terraces at Old Trafford and various away grounds, and devoted most of the rest of my life to traditional music, I'd say there's no doubt at all that football chants are every bit as much folklore as, for instance, the childrens' playground rhymes and games recorded so carefully by the Opies. They're passed on by word of mouth, they're constantly evolving, and authorship is often obscure (you could often hear individual fans or small groups trying to get new chants off the ground - sometimes successfully, somtimes not). Surely someone has done an academic study of them by now?

With United playing Liverpool tomorrow, I'm reminded that from the late 60s onwards the Stretford End would attempt to subvert the Kop's anthem by changing the words to "You'll Never Walk Again", only to bend them further when unemployment scoured Merseyside in the late 70s to "You'll never WORK again."

One of the things I've always enjoyed is the breadth of popular songs plundered for tunes: Elgar, nursery rhymes, TV advertising jingles, folk songs and even the most obscure pop songs. 'Son Of My Father' by Chicory Tip, possibly the feeblest single ever to make the Top Ten, had an extended afterlife on the terraces. Maybe they're singing that tune somewhere even as I write.

As an alternative to "You're gonna get your f***ing head kicked in" United fans had: "You're going home by f***ing ambulance!" Sheer class.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: fat B****rd
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 11:41 AM

And just to confirm what an anorak I am. "You're goin' 'ome in a F***ig Ambulance" was cribbed from the the opening of "Stingray" by The Routers.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:20 PM

You mean the tune? Or the lyrics??

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: JennyO
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:30 PM

Here's one with a difference written by Mudcatter Canberra Chris, a member of The Shiny Bum Singers:

We Are The Rugby Ones (Parody of 'I Am Australian')

Sometimes for no reason
We form those weird scrums
A form of male bonding
With our heads between our bums
Other times we line up
And leap into the air
But we look so silly when
The ball just isn't there.

Chorus:
We are large, but we are stupid
And from all the rugby lands we come
With leather balls, and silly headgear,
I am, youse are, we are the Rugby Ones.

Welsh sing 'Bread of Heaven'
In parts, for they are hot
English sing the chorus of
'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot'
And other songs are sung
In the bath after the game
But their words I would not
Repeat to you for shame.

by Chris Clarke

And here they are in action! We Are The Rugby Ones

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:57 PM

My own proud contribution to this exciting genre of folksong:-


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.br-online.de/bayern3/musik/one-hit-wonder/data/ohw-alan-a-denise-

and

http://www.lyricsondemand.com/a/alandeniselyrics/rummeniggelyrics.html

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:08 PM

aorry that should have been:-

http://www.br-online.de/bayern3/musik/one-hit-wonder/data/ohw-alan-a-denise-rummenigge.shtml

and
http://www.lyricsondemand.com/a/alandeniselyrics/rummeniggelyrics.html

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Lox
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:28 PM

Would it be helpful or just plain annoying to compare the whole issue with that of rugby songs and culture? Every rugby team knows its fair share of bawdy tunes that accompany the post match pissup (or so the stereotype wouldhave us believe)

And would it be worth bearing in mind that rugby comes traditionally from a different social class, and as such has different roots, though not necessarily as meaningful or significant to rugby followers as Association football songs are to the great urban faithful.

And how about the second largest spectator sport in Britain; Rugby league. Kind of a curious halfway house between union and association football. (loved in the industrial north and traditionally semi professional)


I'll leave these ideas to someone else to tidy up.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:49 PM

Ishould have been more specific,.
And said soccer songs,football can of course mean gaelic football, rugby,or soccer. or AMERICAN. But since I mentioned Notts county the founder member of the English soccer league, I thought I had made myself clear.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: GUEST,Dopey
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 02:08 PM

Huh! How does anyone expect me to know the difference between soccer & football.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: Lox
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 02:12 PM

Aye aye Cap'm

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: GUEST,Doc
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 02:14 PM

Oh come on Dopey, cheer up. Even I didn't know that Notts County played soccer instead of football, and I'm the clever one.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: GUEST,Snow White
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 02:30 PM

Seems like a right pantomime! The thread name says football. Oh well shall we start talking about music and songs again chaps?

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 02:37 PM

well, its debatable what they play or try to play, but they are in a soccer league,. But they dont seem to mind about winning or losing they have avery stoical approach to it all,AS EPITOMISED BY THEIR WHEELBARROW SONG,Which seems to imply that they cant afford a decent wheelbarrow, let alone decent players.
But they put up with their lot in life and still sing their songs and have a good masochistic time. I used to live in nottingham and enjoyed their games in a masochistic sort of way,

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: fat B****rd
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 04:27 PM

Hello Brian Peters, tried to PM you but nowt happening.
It's the staccato handclapping bit at the beginning of "Stingray" by The Routers. Their "Let's Go" was the first time I heard the 12 123 1234 ENGLAND !! type thing.
All The Best from Charlie S.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 04:54 PM

Do they have crowd type football songs in other codes of football?   Americans especially seem to find the idea unfamiliar.

There are plenty of songs about all types of football, and most other sports, and songs that get sung in the pub afterwards, such as rugby songs - but all that's a bit different from the crowd chants in mainstream football (aka soccer), though there is some overlap. It's a bit like the distinction between shanties and forebitters.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 05:59 PM

fat ba;;;;rd. Brian peters is a guest,so you cant p m him.
to mcgrath, there are no crowd type songs in gaelic football,and the fans dont have to be segregated ,a kerry man will enjoy his football, seated next to a cork man and visa versa.
The irish are friendly civilised people and though they support their county with zeal, they never abuse their rivals through song.
Idont think it occurs in rugby[the abusive songs]but in internationals matches the Irish sing Fields ofAthenry.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:02 PM

TOGUEST JON, Could you give the tune to the NORWICH CITY SONG .

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:30 PM

"The irish are friendly civilised people and though they support their county with zeal, they never abuse their rivals through song."

From the Ireland section in the there's a hint that once soccer comes in the door all that can fly out the window. (Though it's true enough for Gaelic Football and Hurling). Here's one from Glentoran:

In your Portadown (or Shankill Road) slums (where?)
In your Portadown (or Shankill Road )slums,
You hoak in your dustbins for something to eat,
You find a dead rat and you think its a treat,
In your Portadown (or Shankill Road) slums.
Where?
In your Portadown (or Shankill Road) slums
Your ma is a whore and your da shags the sheep
You're the dirtiest bastards I ever did meet
In your Portadown (or Shankill Road) slums.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 07:25 PM

That last came from the Ireland section in Soccer songs and chants

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 08:29 PM

OK, here's another go, with a couple ammendments to match the words in a book we have.


On The Ball City

In the days to call, which we have left behind,
Our boyhood's glorious game,
And our youthful vigour has declined
With its mirth and its lonesome end;
You will think of the time, the happy time,
Its memories fond recall
When in the bloom of your youthful prime
We've kept upon the ball.

Chorus:
Kick off, throw it in, have a little scrimmage,
Keep it low, a splendid rush, bravo win or die;
On the ball City, never mind the danger,
Steady on, now's your chance,
Hurrah! We've scored a goal

Let all tonight then drink with me
To the football game we love,
And wish it may be successful be
As other games of old,
And in one grand united toast
Join player, game and song,
And fondly pledge your pride and toast,
Success to the City club.

Words taken from "Canary Citizens - Centenary Edition", Jarrolds Publishing.

-------

I have never heard a tune to the verses and my father who has supported Norwich and gone to matches since he was a young child and is now in his 70s has no recollection of ever hearing it sung. Here is the chorus.

X:1
T:On The Ball City
M:4/4
L:1/4
Z:Jon Freeman
N:From memory. Chorus only.
K:C
E E E2 | E E E2 | E E D | C B,2 D2|
w:Kick it off, throw it in, have a lit-tle scrim-mage.
D D D2 | D D D2 | D2 D2 | G G G2|
w:Keep it low splen-did rush, bra-vo win or die.
G3/ G/ G2 | E/ G3/-G2 | F E D C | B, A, G,2 |
w: On the ball Ci-ty,_ ne-ver mind the da-n-ger
A,/ B,/ C3|D/ E/ F3 |A G E D-|D C/ C3 |]
w:Stea-dy on. now's your chance. Hur-rah! we've scored_ a goal.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 04:14 AM

The first verse, fits the Minstrel Boy

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 04:28 AM

It seems to fit march time ,perhaps your chairman DELIA SMITH should commission me to write a tune for it.

Subject: RE: football songs are they folk or traditional so
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 06:04 AM

Hmm. I'm not sure Delia can get beyond "Let's be having you! Come on!".