My Musical Inheritance

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:18 AM

Hi Mo,

I e-mailed David White, who is building the unitedbaptists.org site I linked to above (and who also has let me know that "The Sweet Songster" and the "Thomas Hymnal" are available and can be ordered from the man who preached my grandfather's funeral!) Mr. White replied that many of the songs are not known "outside of the old baptist church houses." He said there was no specific setting, time or place in the worship that any song might be sung. It is up to the preacher or the song leader or whoever is moved to start a song. He went on to say that they certainly might be sung in the home, but any of them might also be sung in the church.

I love reading all the posts from people about their own musical inheritances. We are all rich!

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM

Vectis, 'some time' is now!   I've got some stuff to transfer too, let's get busy! Not only are the motors in our tape decks aging, but those tapes will get more and more degraded as time goes on.

I remember the shock when I realized I not only no longer had a 5.25" drive to recover some old written files, but my new PC had no 3.5" either, and the specialized software to read and convert some of the files to ASCII would no longer load on modern machines.   I realize the tape/digital transformation is not as likely to go away in a poof, but I lost some stuff (even though I did buy an external 3.5 and salvaged what I could) and I can easily see my foot-dragging causing the loss of some old family audio. Gotta get busy!

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 10:47 AM

Do you think that the 'not typical hymns' that you mention might have been considered as suitably uplifting to sing at Church Socials.

I used to attend a Baptist church in England, most were members of tha Baptist Union, though there was a lot of variety of doctrine between different churches, and each had their own constitution and membership rules.
I helped run a Girl's Brigade at a particularly Calvinist church, and was told by a deacon that I could not teach Country Dancing (in the School Room). He went on to tell me the disgraceful story of someone who sang "There was an old farmer had an old sow" at a church social. Not right at all.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 08:27 AM

Catherine's post brought back some memories for me ... A wonderful and influential part of my childhood was sitting (or standing!) around with the family singing songs from that same Newfoundland songbook. We were Maritimers - as opposed to Newfoundlanders - transplanted to Ontario, but those songs seemed to nurture our connection and memories of our relatives, ancestors, and our former life on the east coast (literally - we were right on the water ... ). In my later role as a folksinger, those songs were prominent in my repertoire, and so they remain.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,vectis at work
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 05:32 AM

I am also very lucky in that my father has recorded all his songs on to tape for me and I have four packed cassettes, containing almost 200 songs, as a resource.
I suspect that at some time I will have to put them on to computer before all the cassette players in the house finally give up the ghost.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 04:35 AM

Catherine - were your folks from Burnt Island, Bonavista Bay by any chance?

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,Gary
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:56 PM

Hey Folks!

    I grew up in (and still attend) the Old Regular Baptist church and can tell you Harvard University did a study on lined out hymnody (do a web search on that phrase for further info), with examples from a Scottish denomination that still practices it and the black churches of the deep south who also practice it.
    The difference between the Old Regulars, the Separates, the Uniteds and the Primitives (as far as I can understand it) is the Primitives are more "pre-destinarian" in their views. The Baptists in Kentucky/Virginia used to be more or less one but split in the late 1800's over some doctrinal issues that sound like, to the outsider, more like splitting hairs than anything, but are central to their doctrines.
    If you get a chance, read Dr. Howard Dorgan's EXCELLENT book "The Old Regular Baptists of Central Appalachia: Brothers and Sisters in Hope". Also, if you'd like to hear some samples, go to the website at      www.oldregularbaptist.com.

Gary L. Eldridge
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:26 AM

Thanks for calling my attention to the references to lined-out singing in that thread, Bob.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:09 AM

The Gospel Music Is Gaelic? thread has a discussion of lined-out hymn singing as done by Old Regular Baptists in Appalachia and by Free Presbyterians (I think) in Scotland.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:33 AM

thanks for that link, Janie, I enjoyed listening.

sandra

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:06 AM

Here is link to some Lined-out singing. The White family files are the easiest to listen to, but the Indian Bottom Association examples are what you would actually hear in most congregations.

I note the White family sings harmony. Some United and Old Regular Baptist congregations consider harmony singing in church to be frivolous and eschew it.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:55 AM

Lined-out singing is an old tradition of congregational singing in areas where people were poor, books were scarce, and the literacy rates were low. It arose in what was at the time the American frontier--the southern Appalachians.

As noted above, the song books used have words only--a book of poems, really. In lined-out singing, a song leader, (called a precentor in United Baptist congregations,) would choose a melody that fit the meter of the words, and then call or sing out each line of the song in advance of the congregation--like a call and response. I'll post again in a few minutes with a link to some examples of lined-out hymn singing.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:06 AM

janie - what is lined-out singing? I've heards of shape-notes, but don't understand 'lined-out'.

...................

The New Baptist Song Book and The Sweet Songster, which have been used by both United and the Old Regular Baptist churches, are lyric only books-no music-no shape notes, which suggests lined-out singing. I know the melodies my grandfather used for some hymns were not the customary melodies for those hymns, which strongly suggests lined-out singing.
......................


sandra

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: kendall
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 10:46 PM

What a great story! Thanks Janie.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Catherine
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:48 PM

Hi Janie,
Thank you for the welcome. I agree, it's powerful stuff. My life has been filled with music (especially singing). Can't imagine life without it.
Catherine

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:42 PM

Hello Catherine, and welcome to Mudcat.

You and I are both probably posting here today because of the songs our elders shared with us.

Powerful stuff.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,Catherine
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:25 PM

Hi Janie,
I'm new at this but McGrath of Harlow pointed me towards this thread.
I think that what you have received is a treasure. The history of family is so important and I can certainly visualize exactly how you feel as you describe these wonderous books.

The scrapbook which I found that my Mom left behind when she passed away has also brought me great comfort. Back in the 50's, it was very popular in Newfoundland, to sit around on a Saturday evening with a big pot of Soup or Moose stew or anything you had and have a good singalong. Some of the songs sung were Irish Rebellion songs and since my Dad was a "Kelly" and although Mom was a "McDonald", she had learned so many songs at her father's knee.

When some of these songs were sung, the family would search out each other's hands and hold them until the song was through. Some brought tears to our eyes, some made us laugh, and I guess it made us think about what our forefathers may have gone through and how important it was for us to continue traditions.

You are very fortunate.
Catherine

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:38 PM

See the last few posts in this thread for a parallel story - Newfoundland Mermaid Song

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: oggie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:22 PM

I too have received an inheritance from my Grandfather. In my case it is a copy of his PhD thesis on the Influence of David Hume upon the philosophy of religious conviction. Up until his death he was making amendments to it and trying to prepare it for publication. The copy I have is unique as it carries all the changes he made over the years.

Like you I can see his handwriting and imagine him reading it again and again. Enjoy the inheritance and keep your thoughts of him alive for yourself and generations to come.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:11 PM

KT,

Mind? Not one bit. Pawpaw would be most honored, and I would be too, if these memories should inspire a song.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: KT
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 02:17 PM

Janie, I sure can't answer your last question, but just wanted to say that I missed this thread at the first go-round, and have only discovered it now. What lovely images you've created in the telling of this story!! I, like Jerry, immmediately thought of ways for you to capture and preserve this experience. In my mind, your story would make a great song! Do you mind if I ponder that possibility? Or maybe our Amos could give it a whirl.


And a painting. Talk about a picture worth a thousand words. Please, if you haven't already done so, consider having your husband or somone, take a nice photograph of you, in your favorite reading knook, thumbing through these pages. Then insert a copy of the photo in the book for those future generations who will no doubt, cherish that book as well.

Thanks for sharing such a gem of a story.

KT

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 12:19 PM

Hi SouthernCelt,

I as understand it, (and I may not understand it correctly), the Primative Baptists, while very fundamental, are slightly less so than the United and Old Regular Baptists.

The New Baptist Song Book and The Sweet Songster, which have been used by both United and the Old Regular Baptist churches, are lyric only books-no music-no shape notes, which suggests lined-out singing. I know the melodies my grandfather used for some hymns were not the customary melodies for those hymns, which strongly suggests lined-out singing.

I have never quite figured out the difference between congregations that call themselves United Baptist and those that call themselves Old Regular Baptist.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 11:54 AM

Personal hymnal for use at home, alone or with friends gathered for home worship/prayer? Leading the family?

Possible parallel: In the Episcopal Church we use a Book of Common Prayer, in church. For all services, all seasons, and all occasions-- it has the liturgy and individual prayers you can choose from. But it also has sections for personal devotions, and people often purchase a small edition (same page layout, just smaller type throughout, has ALL the contents of the big one on superstrong and superthin rice paper.)

As a way of giving people a tool to use to sanctify the whole day... Such as, Need a lullaby? Use a sacred one instead of a worldly one. Need a lament, same thing.

~S~

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 11:49 AM

I'm curious about something, sort of a sideline question to the main thread, how do the United and Old Regular Baptists compare to the Primitive Baptists? I'm not familiar with any churches with Baptist in the name that don't use musical accompaniment except the Primitives, who often do Sacred Harp/shaped note singing.

SC

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 10:54 AM

Is there anyone on Mudcat who with expertise on the traditions of United and Old Regular Baptists?

As I am reading through Pawpaw's The New Baptist Song Book, I am surprised to see whole sections of songs that I would not expect to see in a hymnal. They seem to me to be more in the line of ballads and laments with a cautionary or religious theme, as opposed to a song for worship.

I posted the lyrics to one last night (I have No Mother Now) after recognizing "Every Bush and Tree" was a variant. It is included in an extensive section of dead mother, father, sister, brother songs, orphan songs, cautionary tales about not being tempted to be a floozy.

I'm curious about when and in what circumstances these songs might be sung in the worship service.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:01 PM

Thanks PS,

I think I found that site--I've been poking around the internet the last few days, doing a little research. I had already been on that site, but had missed the music link. I began doing a little bit of research a couple of years ago, but got distracted from it before I got very far. this site has links to some some song recordings: http://unitedbaptists.org/downloads.html.

I found a few more, but I gotta get off this computer and go to bed.

I'm glad to hear Appalshop is still alive and well. I just looked at their website--it is great to see an organization like Appalshop continuing to do and to support significant cultural art and documentary after so long a time. It means the vision of its founders has endured, and probably signifies sufficient flexibility to acheive the successful transition from one generation to another.

And that said above is pure supposition--I just looked at the website, and really know nothing about the current situation.

Major thread drift, I see...but I'm gonna hit 'send' anyway.

nitenite,

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,Pinetop Slim
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 10:35 AM

Appalshop is indeed still around. And I believe they still stock "In the Good Old Fashioned Way," a video about the Old Regular Baptist Church. Russ's granddad's Thornton So-Say-Shun may be included, as Appalshop is in Whitesburg, seat of Letcher County...
Can't put my hand on the link right now, but if you poke around, an Old Regular Baptist Church in Vicco, Ky., has posted a dozen or more hymns sung by the congregation. Wonderful stuff...

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Stower
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 09:37 AM

Janie, that's beautiful. Do you sing yourself? If so, I think it would be lovely to have a song from that collection in your repertoire, explaining first to listeners what you've told us.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 03:16 AM

That's Lucy - Hawker whose cookie has somehow done a runner!!!!!

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 03:15 AM

A beautiful token of remembrance. I think it is wise to at the very least jot down family information, in recent explorations of my own family history, there is little known about my maternal grandfathers family as no-one did write it down and there is now no-one to tell. We have however got rich pickings from the other side including wonderful stories and anecdotes of various characters in our families. In another 100 years these will mean so much to your childrens childrens children - see how much the world has changed in our parents lifetime!
May it be a source of inspiration to you - and a comfort. You are, from your obvious delight at ownership ther right and true custodian
Regards, Lucy

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From:
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 12:59 AM

That sounds wonderful, Janie. What a great memory for you.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 12:01 AM

Russ,

Do I remember correctly that Appalshop was headquartered in Whitesburg? I don't even know if Appalshop is still around, but they published alot of really wonderful stuff about the Appalachian region. Video, music, books, photography.

My husband, a documentary photographer for a number of years, participated in an photography project that toured and resulted in a book of photography, Appalachia, A Self-Portrait many years ago, with Bob Cooper and Wendy Ewald, among others. The project was conducted under the auspices of Appalshop, who obtained an NEA grant to finance it.

Does your wife know of a source for the melodies of many of the Sweet Songster hymns? Some of them I know, but there are many more that I don't. The Appalachian Digital Library has some of them. My grandparent's church, although they used the 'lined-out' hymnals, did not generally line-out the songs. By that I mean there was not a song leader or preacher who chose a melody to match the meter. There was common agreement on what the melody of a song was, and the congregation just sang it straight out, without the lining out of the words by the preacher or song leader. They also didn't sing harmony, considering that to be frivolous.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Mooh
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:56 PM

This is a wonderful story. Thanks Janie.

I have many hymnals, some as gifts or inheritance from my folks. My parents were thoughtful enough to inscribe the gifts at the time they gave them to me. The ones they left when they died have mostly been dated and/or inscribed when they purchased them. This is a very good habit or custom. Some of my Dad's hymnals are full of date stamps to indicate when he assigned certain hymns to be sung (he was a clergyman).

Book plates are a nice touch in such things.

From one hymn book, "To Michael from Dad and Mum with love, March 4 1999, 'Let all the world in every corner sing, my God and King!'" Someday I hope future generations will have the opportunity to treasure this also.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Kaleea
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:42 PM

Would that most beloved hymnals & other printed Music would be passed down to loving & appreciative hands! It is usually the opposite. When I was in Music school, I began collecting hymnals & Music I found at 2nd hand shops, yard sales & estate sales. Most of my favorite hymnals & Music were found that way. They are almost all out of print, & could rarely be found any other way.
No doubt that many of we 'Catters should learn from this & make plans now for what happens to our printed Music & instruments when . . .

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:12 PM

Thanks for your kind words, Jerry.

If there is one thing I have learned in all my years in social work and as a psychotherapist it is this--everybody has a story worth telling--and worth listening to.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:07 AM

Hey, Janie:

What you have is a book. And I'm not talking about the hymnals. You have a gift for writing, and a fascinating story to tell. I could warm myself by the fire of your writing.

These last couple of months, I've been writing about my family, starting with my Grandparents on both sides and bringing it forward.
The stories all sing, with hymns and songs that I've written over the years. I captured as many memories as I could while my parents were alive, and I am so thankful that I did. Now, I am trying to give them form and a sense of sights, sounds, smells and tastes of lives that are too easily forgotten.

That wise old sage of Mudcat, Elmer Fudd, has encouraged me to write the old stories to pass on as a legacy to my family and share with friends, and I'd like to encourage you to do the same.

This thread is the smallest of appetizers. Don't leave us hungry.

Jerry

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:15 AM

Susan and Robyn,

Good advice. Thanks.

I think I should also include a brief letter to my son and his cousins with some history and a statement about why it is a precious piece of our family and heritage-in short-what it means to me. I look at family heirlooms from my great and great-great grandparents, whom I never knew, and their meaning to me is based on the stories, the oral history of my family.

Folk history.

Folk music.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Little Robyn
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:18 PM

You need a little box to keep it in, to hold it safely together and keep the corners from being damaged.
I have an old bible (dated 1601) that lives in a specially made box - made from acid-free card by a picture framer.
Robyn

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:15 PM

You might get some guidance from your local historical society on the best way to preserve it. They might be able to help you scan it before packing it away. Then you could print the scans into a notebook to sing out of.

~Susan

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:13 PM

Correction, he referred to the hymns he sang as songs of Zion, not accompanied music.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:12 PM

In the same envelop with the hymnology were the minutes for the 84th annual session of the Iron Hill Association of the United Baptist Church, held in 1987 when Pawpaw was 91. There is tribute written to him on the last page for his years of service. He served as clerk to his church, Old Oak Springs (I think in Ashland, KY, but not sure) from 1928 until very near to his death at age 97 in 1993, and served as the clerk to the Iron Hill Association from 1951 until his death.

Pawpaw was a bit of a hell-raiser when he was very young--family legend has it that he ran a still with the sheriff of Johnson Co. , KY until he 'got saved.' Nannie used to talk of them courting at corn huskings, bean stringings and such. She'd get a dreamy, far-off look in her eyes, gently shake her head and say "Law, that man sure could play the banjo." He foresook all secular music when he joined his church, and all accompanied religious music, which he referred to as 'the songs of Zion.' When he was in his late 80's, my sister would occasionally leave her fiddle at their house to see what might happen. He did, in fact, pick it up once or twice, but it had been so many decades that he no longer knew how to play it at all.

I got my Dad to reminiscing (spelling) some before I left this past Sunday morning to head back to North Carolina. He talked about the church services he remembered. Said one or two or three might get up to preach, and when Pawpaw or another elder thought they had gone on long enough, he'd just stand up and commence to singing. Soon others would join in, and the preacher would just have to stop.

I noted to Dad that while Pawpaw sang and whistled all the time, I never once remembered hearing my grandmother sing. Dad's somewhat ascerbic comment was "She always got drownded(sic) out."

This prescious hymnology I now have in my possession is too fragile to use. Apparently both song books are now out of print. I have just sent an e-mail to a United Baptist researcher with a website asking if he can recommend a hymnology currently in print that would include many, if not most of the same songs.

Janie

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: karen k
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:22 AM

Janie,
How wonderful and appropriate that you should have it. Would love to see it sometime. Can't make this year's Getaway so maybe you could bring it next year. Treasure it, but use it.

karen

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: ranger1
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:34 AM

Janie, what a wonderful treasure!

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:27 AM

Janie,

My wife inherited her grandfather's "Sweet Songster." He was one of the song leaders for the Thornton Old Regular Baptist Church, in Letcher CO. KY.

To say she treasures it would be putting it mildly.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 04:26 AM

You have it in one, with your title... inheritance. It's things like your Pawpaw's book that keep songs going on down through the years. Songs come and go, even in churches. One day, someone will want to sing a song from their childhood, and you have the source in your hands now. It may be one of his favourites, it may be a new one, whatever, the song still goes on (in the words of Led Zeppelin!)

LTS

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 10:22 PM

In some ways it is better than a family Bible.

Enjoy and worship and fellowship with your ancestors.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 10:07 AM

Janie, that is beautiful. I can just *see* it. Thanks so much for sharing with us.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: jeffp
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 10:54 PM

From your description I would say that you are the proper custodian. Your appreciation speaks volumes. And your grandfather sounds like someone I would have enjoyed meeting.

Jeff

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: GUEST,DEDBAD
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 10:50 PM

What a charming story.

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: DADGBE
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 10:32 PM

Janie,

You have a precious inheritance, indeed! How wonderful that you appreciate it so well. That's what traditional music does - connects us with our ancesters in a direct way. Good on yer!

Subject: RE: My Musical Inheritance
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 10:22 PM

Lucky girl, all the way 'round! It's right you should have this.

~Susan

Subject: My Musical Inheritance
From: Janie
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 10:20 PM

Just a few minutes ago, my Dad gave me my grandfather's well-worn hymnology. This is one of the few places I can share this and know that many of you will appreciate how much it means to me.

Papaw's United/Old Regular Baptist church used two small song books, "The New Baptist Song Book" and "The Sweet Songster." He had worn the covers out and at some point had both books bound together into oneinside a flexible leather cover. There are checkmarks by many of the songs, that I assume indicated he knew them or that they were favorites. Here and there, where a page had been completely worn out, he had typed the hymn number and the words onto a piece of notebook paper cut to size, and inserted it into the proper place. On a few pages, his small, careful printing in the margin noted different words for a line or added a verse to a song.

Pawpaw was a very devout United/Old Regular Baptist, and, according to my grandmother, was a fine musician. He gave up fiddle and banjo when he joined the church in his early twenties, as they believed in only a cappella music. My earliest memories of music are of hearing him sing or whistle hymns in his beautiful, hillbilly tenor as he hoed the garden or tended the bees. These early memories left an indelible impression on me and have strongly influenced my own love of gospel and Appalachian music.

As I gently leafed through the yellowed and cracking pages of the little book, reading his small print, thinking of his hands turning to one hymn or another in praise of his beloved Jesus, the memories and feelings of comfort and love are so strong, it is as if he is right here with me again.

Janie