C1970 How many folk clubs in England?

Subject: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:04 AM

At the height of the folk clubs' popularity in England ( around the late 60s?) , have we any idea how many weekly clubs existed?

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:46 AM

Guest..I believe your assumption that Folk Club popularity was at its height in the 60's or 1970 is just an assumption. It may have reached a new level at that point but there are actually more people attending such clubs and spin off acoustic clubs and open mikes than there ever were then. Maybe if we look at the growth in population we will find that the increase is proportionate..who knows?

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:24 AM

There were 4 in Nottingham including the legendary NTMC, and now there are not. I'm not sure open mics count...

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:38 AM

It's probably impossible to work it out - if you had a copy of the Folk Directory from that period, you may get some idea. However, that tome always understated the position, as many couldn't be bothered to send in their details (nothing much changes!!).
Bear in mind that there was usually at least one in each small town or village, and the bigger towns and cities had many. In Coventry, where I live, there were over 20 weekly clubs during that period, ranging from small singers clubs right up to the big concert clubs. This was a pattern repeated all over the country - ask any of the performers who were doing the circuit then.
Also, just about every college and university had a folk club back then.
And, of course, in the late 60s and early 70s, they were all pretty full - there were loads of weekly clubs that regularly pulled in crowds of 100 - 300 people. Some more. The total must have run into hundreds of thousands.
However, I suspect that the total number then was not much different to the total number that now go to folk festivals.
The 'open mic' phenomenon is interesting. It is very similar to the folk club movement back then, and in common with it, seems to have grown up very rapidly, and without any sort of central organisation, but by a form of 'osmosis'. Just like the folk clubs then, there now seems to be an open mic just about everywhere, and several in the large towns. The only difference is that the word 'folk' is not mentioned anywhere, and there is very little folk music being performed in them as far as I can see, although there is a sort of contemporary, singer/songwriter, acousticy sort of thing going on (which IS similar to the folk clubs as they developed in the mid 70s.
If there is a statistician on this forum with time on their hands, I'm sure it would be possible to put a figure to it!

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 07:35 AM

Probably very difficult to put a figure on this as although there were a number of regional folk directories people would meet fairly anonymously then and do their thing!

I think with weekly clubs and sessions and the standard of music the scene is thriving still. Takes a number of years to gain proficiency in any of the Folk Skills and I feel that the scene is set for a good number of years

Folk Festivals are a different matter and so too is the element of entertainment in the wider sense which is coming into fashion

Ray

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:01 AM

I worked on trying to compile the Folk Directory at C# House at that very time and what a thankless task it was. I knew very well of very many more clubs than were actually listed because I'd either been there or booked in acts, but getting their 'organisers' to reply to requests to update their listings was another matter. Still happens today, just look, for example, at an online resource such as Folk London and you get listings of the 'establishment' happenings but little of the sessions or the heaving new venues run by young people without the by-your-leave of the old farts whom they fear, in many cases rightly, would only start telling them what to do. Yes, some open mics are truly dreadful, but no more so than the introspective doldrums into which many a 'club' fell in the late 70s when invaded by callow singer-songwriters who really ought to have been locked in their bedrooms. People will do what they do but with the high standard prevailing in sessions and workshops, I'd endorse Ray's view that the music is living and thriving, despite or even because of the current fashion among a few for emulating or even joining boy bands.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:01 AM

I dont think the folk clubs of the 60/70's can be equated wth open mics. There are similarities, of course. For a start, the open mics I have seen havent not tended to be folk-orientated, though there might be the odd fold song once in a blue moon. But the real difference seems to be that folk clubs aimed at a collective experience generally, lots of chorus singing and social interaction. The open mic tends to be a series of people trying out individual performances, with no feeling of celebrating the communal ownership of the material. And, surely, was the distictive ethos of the folk club of those days. I appreciate that principle was progressivaly lost as the proportion of new compositions rose inexorably, and so the collective ownership idea dwindled in many clubs(which eventually, has been pointed out, closed).
    As regards the geneal question, how many were there? I spent some of the 60's in Oxford, where I seem to recall three clubs, and also in Lancaster/Morecambe, where I think there were two. Which would imply several thousand clubs, extrapolating across the country.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:47 PM

The word "mic" and "folk clubs" wouldn't have been mentioned in the same breath when I first started going to folk clubs!

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:50 PM

Agreed on the incompatibily of mics and folk clubs in the early days. The mic concept defines one person as a performer, the rest as listeners. Not the message of your standard sixties folk club.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:15 AM

By the early nineties I was organising some tours for people and had a fairly comprehensive filing system for contact details for the folk clubs available in the UK. At that time I knew of about 700 clubs, although perhaps a quarter either didn't book guests or only had one or two per year. What was very noticable was that when I started going to clubs in the '70's every university & college had its own club but by 1990 these were almost non existant. So based on that, and also on the fact that a lot of pub venues had also disappeared by 1990, my 'educated guess' of venues around mid '70s would be perhaps 2000

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:00 PM

As a side question, when do the panel think the mic and PA system became commonplace in UK folk clubs? My memory is a bit vague on this, but I think the bigger clubs in cities probably started to use them in the late 1970s or early 1980s. But I could be wrong. Of course I'm aware that some smaller clubs still don't use them.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:24 PM

Of the clubs I can reach easily in the West London/Thames valley area , there are only two that use P A - And one of them is more of a Concert venue than a Folk Club . The rest are ALL Acoustic . I think there is a tendency to use 'Open Mic' now to indicate an acoustic performer orientated show , rather than a 'singaround' or a 'session'.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:08 PM

Voice projection.
WOULD Pavarotti, John Morris,Dick Miles , Paul Robeson need a mic in these places . NO.too much singing using mikes, can result in singers losing their voice projection,it also creates a barrier between singer and audience.
In my opinion the government should ban all folk and traditional music, a sure way to make it stronger.they should have done it in 1970. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:15 PM

Oh, puhleese! I've definitely seen Pavarotti use a mic. Do you know what? He still projects - he just knows to stand well back from the mic stand. Inaudibility's far more of a barrier between singer and audience.

Does amplification matter? What would most "source" singers have done if it was available to them? We don't live in hermetically sealed communities, nor did we ever, even when the pace of change was slower.

As for numbers of folk clubs in 1970, this is an interesting one - there seem to be lots of ballpark figures thrown around for the early 1960s but as the numbers increased and clubs opened and closed with rapid turnover I suppose it was harder to keep track of the figures. It would be fascinating to hear if anyone's attempted the actual statistics.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:24 PM

Sorry, Guest - I missed your comment on actual numbers (and your estimate of around 2000) first time round due to getting knotted up with the open mic debate. Bloody thread drift ... (I know I'm an offender!) What do others think of Guest's ballpark figure? Did the scene really leach as many as 1300 clubs between, say 1975 and the early 1990's?

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:33 PM

shepherd lass,I too have used microphones.
But I practise my voice like an instrument, and I practice diapHragm control and do breathing exercises, It is not that im against MICS, but feel singers should be warned about relying on them too much[without practising voice projection] and consequently losing their voice projection.If you dont use it you can lose it.
   However there are some places I have been booked to play,and amplification was definitely not needed, and others where it was., but it does tend in my opinion to be provided when it isnt often required., often because people havent learnt to project their voices.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 05:23 AM

Aye, aye, Cap'n - spot on. It's ridiculous when some artists insist on using a PA in a tiny venue, deafening everyone in the process.

Years ago I used to sing unamplified and never had any problem with voice projection, but after a long lapse I found I had somewhat lost the ability (which confused me at the time, I put it down at the time to ageing). But it's gradually come back with practice and singing unamplified in clubs, sessions, etc.

I'd recommend any singer to keep in practice singing unamplified, even if (as I do) they often do use a mic/PA - I think some of today's artists would have a problem though, because they've always used a mic/PA.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:34 AM

Certainly so, Scrump and Cap'n. I did a degree in classical singing, so I understand your misgivings. However, a PA that's well set-up (and that's the important issue here) in a quiet room can be very useful depending on what style you're performing. Sometimes the intimacy you can gain from almost whispering on the mic is more appropriate than having to project. Horses for courses. What is much harder to listen to is those usually acoustic performers who haven't learned mic technique and constantly distort and "pop" due to being too close.

The question remains - does the open mic session equate with the 1970s contemporary clubs? I'm not sure, but I'd say there may be a difference in intention. A 70s singer-songwriter club might tolerate a serious traddie getting up to sing a 25 verse unaccompanied ballad, but I seriously doubt the same could apply to many open mic nights.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 03:32 PM

Yes ps and bs are a problem, your right about whispering though sheperd lass.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 05:55 PM

Proximity effect varies with different microphones.

The Shure SM58 (ice-cream cone shape with big gauze ball on the end that you sing into) is a close vocal mic, which will pop quite badly if you are around two inches away, but not if your lips are practically touching the gauze. They are not really suitable for 'loose' miking, as the frequency response is 'tailored' for close vocals.

Microphones which are similar in appearance to the SM58 are likely to behave in a similar way.

If a microphone is fairly cylindrical in shape, possibly with a foam windshield, it is more likely to be suitable for 'loose' miking.

Although I am an audio engineer by day, I prefer folk clubs without a PA system! I accept that some guest performers prefer to use PA to 'save their voices', although I have never found I needed to!!

The size of room can make a difference, of course, but few folk clubs are in very large rooms - by which I mean an audience capacity of more than 100. Such 'clubs' are really concert venues, and do need some PA.

I don't think an 'open mic' session is on a par with 1970s folk clubs per se, although there may well have been some clubs which would nowadays be regarded as 'open mic' venues.

Just my opinion, mind...! Sadly, I'm old enough to remember!!

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 06:12 PM

The mic concept defines one person as a performer, the rest as listeners. Not the message of your standard sixties folk club.

Have to disagree. That's exactly what clubs were like then. A lsitening audience, happy to join in when asked but not thinking of themselves as the show, happy to enjoy the work of those paid to entertain them. I've got photos to prove it, and tapes of live performances. I reckon there were over 800 clubs in the late 60's early 70's.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Scrump
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:22 AM

Yes, I agree with shepherdlass and Bernard that some performers would not be able to perform in their usual style without a mic/PA, and take the point that some of them probably do need amplification. But there seem to be plenty of artists who don't really need it but seem to insist on it (from habit, I suppose). I was really talking about small folk clubs rather than larger 'concert' type ones.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:24 AM

The thing about the mic, shepherdlass and the most recent GUEST, is that it defines the postion of the mic as the focus of the room. Of course we sat and listened to the singer in the 60's folk club, but, I think, from a point of view of a shared experience. The classic ethos of the club was the singers night, when it went round the room one singer one song generally. RThat meant the singers would often perofem from where they sat, and not take the stage, or mic, position. And the voices could blend nicely in the choruses.`people trying out harmonies etc(with varying degrees of success). Now, once you put the mic in, OK it was great in a big room so that you could hear a guest singer, pack more audienc3e in, make the whole thing financially viable. But the minute some clubs started doing thata, the others became perceived as behind the times, unprofessional etc etc.
   If I go up to the Greyhound in the village(as I do) to play a few tunes, and people drop in, and want to join in with tunes or songs they know, it's perfectly essy and relaxed. It wouldn't be if I put a pa ssystem in front of me where I sit.
    I wnet to play atan arts centre in Otley recently for a concert celebrating gypsy and traveller music. The place was tiny, excellent acoustics, audience maybe 70-80? Massive pa set up, rows of mics ready. I said, how about we get rid of that stuff. We dont need a mic to listen to Sheila Stewart in a tiny room, we dont need mics for the Orchard family to sing and play melodeons tunes for stepdancing, and we certainly dont need mics for the BOat Band. So we all did the night acoustically, and when anybody somebody else's tune or song,they got up on stage and joined in, or sang from the floor. Or danced. A lovely evening, and I guarantee that the spontaneous collective playing would not have happened if the band on stage was all hidden behind the protective curtain of unnecessary electronic enhancement.
   I have nothing against amplification in the right place and the right time. I make my living playing amplified music. But the right place and the right time, to my mind, is not the back room of a pub with a few mates singing a few old songs round the room.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:42 AM

In the 60's and 70's the singers night gathering was not really considered as folk clubs by the people who attended clubs in those days. Most clubs were on a circuit and booked pros.The folk mags from those times are fascinating. There seems to be an attempt to re-write the history of the folk revival by the hard-core remnants. In its time the folk club was where a generation went for its nights out and a chat up. Entertainment was at the heart of it and was not a dirty word. They could be entertained by the Watersons or the Young Tradition as easily as by Johnny Silvo or jasper Carrott. To re-invent those clubs as some sort of temple of singing is not right, they were direct descendents of the music hall and fulfilled a need for young people. Fragmentation and dissidence came later to the detriment of all.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:53 AM

I am no remnant of some hardcore traddy folk club world. I basically left the folk clubs in the late 60's, and tried to harden off folk msuic be replanting it in the wild: with varying degrees of success. But I have a pretty good memory, and a room full of boxes of old folk publications. Sure, the folk clubs were a bit like music halls(which didnt have mics, incidentally).But they were also clubs, where members went to sing together, socialise, get pissed, and cop off. And I managed all those activities quite successfully, without benefit of a mic for any of them.
   GUEST, who are you, and what was your club experience? Of course, the folk club world was avery broad church, and happily included your viewpoint as well as mine.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 08:06 AM

I do remember doing my first gigs with a spanish guitar and no PA to rooms of up to 100 people! I think mics do help maintain the voice if the singer works regularly. The problems come with the man on the desk and the sound level. I think you have to be very firm as to how loud you want to be and the voice should always dominate the instrument for songs.
I prefer to wear the veil when I post sometimes,hope you don't mind.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Scrump
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 08:11 AM

I agree with GUEST 27 Oct 06 - 07:42 AM 's comments about folk clubs being primarily for entertainment, not temples of singing as he/she put it. That was one reason I didn't like Ewan MacColl/Peggy Seeger's club much, in spite of seeing some great performances from them and their guests there - it was the atmosphere of being in a church rather than a place of entertainment that didn't appeal to me. That's not to say there wasn't any humour, it's just that the whole place seemed to frown upon anything that didn't fit their idea of what folk music should be. Some of the artists I spoke to at the time admitted they were terrified of performing there, in case they put a foot wrong as far as their material was concerned.

In the 60s and 70s many folk clubs used to - and some still do - have guest nights most weeks, but have a singaround or session (or "Come All Ye" as some used to call it - not sure why that term seems to have died a death?) maybe once a month. The clubs I went to in the early 1970s didn't have mics or PAs, even for 'star' guests. On guest nights, I think the absence of a mic did make it easier for the audience to feel part of the event rather than just spectators. That's not to say I haven't had some great evenings' entertainment in 'concert' type clubs - I've enjoyed many, but it's not the same as the old days (trying hard not to appear as a Grumpy Old Man). The mic just makes for a 'me and them' type atmosphere, rather than an 'us' type atmosphere (I guess this is sort of what greg was saying above). There are some artists who are able to overcome that better than others.

Most of the singarounds or sessions I go to these days, people do just perform from where they happen to be sitting (although some might stand up when it's their turn). But I've been to other clubs where each performer makes their way the 'stage' position (even if there's no actual stage - but the position a guest artist would perfrom from) when it's their turn. I've never thought about it before, but I wonder if it makes any difference? I perhaps feel a little more nervous about performing from the 'stage' than just sitting where I am - not sure why exactly, though.

Subject: RE: C1970 How many folk clubs in England?
From: Bernard
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:28 AM

I always thought 'Come All Ye' was a bit twee - clearly hijacked from songs of that type (often starting with those words).

In the elate 1960s/early 1970s I used to be one of the organisers of the 'No Name' folk club in Bolton, Lancs, along with the other two members of 'Haywain', the song trio I had recently joined at the time.

We didn't use PA (didn't own one!), but the room only held around fifty with people sat on each other's knees!

We ran it as a sort of practice night for us to run through new material as well as entertain our 'fans', but we also invited people to perform if they wished. Not a singaround, not a concert, but somewhere in between. Everyone played and sang from one part of the room (no stage).

It had evolved from a more concert-like club we used to run at Eagley Tennis Club (many well known and lesser known performers appeared - including the Grehan Sisters). One night (we ran it on a Wednesday, as I remember), we were unable to find the person with the key to the building, and needed to find an alternative venue farily quickly. Fortunately, Don and Brenda welcomed us with open armes at the House Without A Name on Lee Gate, Harwood, and we didn't return to the tennis club.

We'd been having a bit of bother after a change of committee at the tennis club, so the change wasn't entirely unexpected.

It's still the same story these days - how often do we hear of a folk club suddenly finding themselves without a venue because the pub has changed hands?! That was precisely what happened a few years later at the No Name.

It's certainly true that a PA system can act as a barrier between the perfomer and the audience - but putting someone up on a stage can also have that effect to some extent.