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BS: Samhain

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Cats 30 Oct 06 - 06:51 AM
greg stephens 30 Oct 06 - 06:55 AM
Bill t' bodger 30 Oct 06 - 07:50 AM
GUEST 30 Oct 06 - 08:04 AM
Rapparee 30 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM
MBSLynne 30 Oct 06 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh 30 Oct 06 - 11:07 AM
open mike 30 Oct 06 - 12:44 PM
Rapparee 30 Oct 06 - 02:08 PM
Micca 30 Oct 06 - 02:44 PM
katlaughing 30 Oct 06 - 02:51 PM
Fiolar 31 Oct 06 - 08:40 AM
Clinton Hammond 31 Oct 06 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Lady P Who's cookie has fell off.... 31 Oct 06 - 03:51 PM
Polly Squeezebox 31 Oct 06 - 04:53 PM
Liz the Squeak 31 Oct 06 - 05:20 PM
Zany Mouse 31 Oct 06 - 05:20 PM
Cats 31 Oct 06 - 05:47 PM
Tig 31 Oct 06 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh 31 Oct 06 - 08:11 PM
Shiamsa 31 Oct 06 - 08:27 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 06 - 09:32 PM
jimmyt 31 Oct 06 - 10:43 PM
Joe Offer 01 Nov 06 - 02:41 AM
MBSLynne 01 Nov 06 - 02:50 AM
GUEST,Cats 01 Nov 06 - 05:14 AM
manitas_at_work 01 Nov 06 - 05:46 AM
mandotim 01 Nov 06 - 05:49 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 06 - 06:33 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 06 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh 01 Nov 06 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh 01 Nov 06 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh 01 Nov 06 - 10:44 AM
Clinton Hammond 01 Nov 06 - 11:37 AM
mandotim 01 Nov 06 - 11:38 AM
Liz the Squeak 01 Nov 06 - 12:59 PM
lady penelope 01 Nov 06 - 01:21 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 Nov 06 - 01:39 PM
MBSLynne 01 Nov 06 - 01:52 PM
lady penelope 01 Nov 06 - 02:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 06 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Lexie Luther 01 Nov 06 - 03:24 PM
MBSLynne 02 Nov 06 - 09:55 AM
Cats 02 Nov 06 - 12:49 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Nov 06 - 01:56 PM
lady penelope 02 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Nov 06 - 04:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 06 - 05:34 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Nov 06 - 05:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 06 - 05:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 06 - 05:42 PM
GUEST 02 Nov 06 - 05:55 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Nov 06 - 05:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 06 - 06:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 06 - 06:19 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Nov 06 - 06:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 06 - 06:52 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Nov 06 - 09:09 PM
lady penelope 03 Nov 06 - 07:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 06 - 07:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 06 - 07:41 AM
Micca 03 Nov 06 - 11:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 06 - 12:36 PM
Clinton Hammond 03 Nov 06 - 12:53 PM
lady penelope 03 Nov 06 - 01:30 PM
Clinton Hammond 03 Nov 06 - 01:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 06 - 01:57 PM
lady penelope 03 Nov 06 - 02:13 PM
robomatic 03 Nov 06 - 02:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Nov 06 - 07:17 AM
lady penelope 04 Nov 06 - 12:19 PM
Clinton Hammond 04 Nov 06 - 12:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Nov 06 - 01:26 PM
Clinton Hammond 04 Nov 06 - 02:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 04 Nov 06 - 02:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Nov 06 - 03:12 PM
GUEST 04 Nov 06 - 04:49 PM
Clinton Hammond 04 Nov 06 - 06:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 06 - 06:40 AM
Clinton Hammond 05 Nov 06 - 11:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 06 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Cats at Work 06 Nov 06 - 06:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Nov 06 - 04:06 AM
Liz the Squeak 08 Nov 06 - 03:48 AM
MBSLynne 08 Nov 06 - 07:50 AM

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Subject: BS: Samhain
From: Cats
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 06:51 AM

Brightest Blessings and kindest thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 06:55 AM

This festival is always referred to by its Irish name(Samhain). What is it called in other Celtic languages? Anyone know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Bill t' bodger
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 07:50 AM

Love light and good happiness stuff to all on this turning of the season and remembrance of those departed

Blessed Be

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 08:04 AM

Samhuinn, Oiche Shamhna, Nos Calan Gaeaff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM

Blessings and good memories to all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 09:55 AM

Peace and happiness to all those living. To those who have gone before, peaceful rest. Blessings to all on the Night of the Dead and for the following year

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 11:07 AM

Fom sundown to sundown we will dwell among you. Beware, we are not easily appeased!


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: open mike
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:44 PM

dia de los muertos


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 02:08 PM

If you dwell among us and need appeasement, could you take that current bunch in Washington, DC? Pretty please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Micca
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 02:44 PM

May This New Year bring the putting aside of the past and bring the much needed renewal of spirit, the stepping forward into a brighter future that we all need at this time, Bright Blessings, Blessed be, Micca


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 02:51 PM

That is beautiful, Micca.

Rapaire, LOL!

Blessed Be to all among us, in all dimensions and planes of existence. May we all nurture our dreams, hopes, ourselves, and one another, during this time of rest and contemplation, attuning to the heartbeat of our Mother until the greening is upon us once again.

Light, Life, and Love,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Fiolar
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 08:40 AM

I remember watching a movie some years ago. It was a horror movie and if I remember correctly was one of a series. Anyway in one scene an "expert" was called in to deal with some ghost or other. The person who was the so called expert started spouting on about "Sam Hain". I nearly fell out of my seat laughing. I kid you not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 10:51 AM

Blessings?? Happiness?   Love?!?!

WTF people!?! get a grip on Hallowe'en would yas....


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,Lady P Who's cookie has fell off....
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:51 PM

We have dearest Clinton.

Hallowe'en - or rather All Hallow's Eve, is the christianised version of the celtic/pagan new year. On this night we think back to our ancesters and what has gone before, we review the past year and let go what we must. We take the spark of light and spirit of hope into the new year to start the wheel's journey through the year once more.

Of course if you're happier with just the fancy dress and the candy........

May the light of a thousand stars guide the path to your dreams.

Happy new year guys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Polly Squeezebox
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 04:53 PM

I've asked for the help of the Weaver of Dreams
To cast her starry spell
To look down upon you where you are
And bless the place wherein you dwell

She called upon her sisters then
to shed their light also
To bring you love and peace and joy
And let them around you grow

May you in happiness abide
To the fullness of your life
May light and love be always yours
With never fear or strife

BLESSED BE THEE
AND THY ABODE

Polly


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 05:20 PM

Well I spent a splendid day with some ME time... something that's been missing for the last few weeks.

And how did I spend it? Looking up the ancestors and finding what could be another generation back - making it 1690.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 05:20 PM

Bright blessings to all Catters.

May the New Year bring you all that you wish and that would be healthy and good for yourself and all the people around you.

Blesséd be

Rhiannon


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Cats
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 05:47 PM

And this evening, in Bodmin, I did a performance of 'Spirit in the Storm' the true story of Joan Wytte, the woman from Bodmin who was accused of witchcraft and ended up as an exhibit in the Museum in Boscastle until Graham buried her. A fitting time to tell the story of a woman so wronged but now at peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Tig
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 05:53 PM

Blessed be to those friends who have gone before, those who we know now and those we are yet to meet. Let us wish the New Year brings comfort, happiness and hope to all.

Love, light and hugs
Tig
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 08:11 PM

The time it is upon us! Let us relect and cleanse our thoughts so that we may enter the next cycle! Fallow lies the Earth until Belteine!


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Shiamsa
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 08:27 PM

In Irish the month of November is called Samhain, or Mí na Samhna (month of Samhain-genitive case).


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 09:32 PM

Don't go annoying these people with facts now, Shiamsa. It might pull the cornerstone out from under their twee pagan 'high holy eve' constructs. Then, all they will be left with is a bank holiday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: jimmyt
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 10:43 PM

Blessed Be   jimmyt


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 02:41 AM

Well, I think of this more as a night to pig out on candy bars; but I was inspired this evening, seeing my beautiful wife dressed as a witch, drumming to the moon.

Blessings to all.

-Joe-
(and the Butterfingers tasted especially good this year)


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 02:50 AM

Bank holdiay??? Some people get a bank holiday for Samhain?????

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:14 AM

Yes, Lynne, I'm working on it!! I am contending under Equalities Act 2006 that Paganism is now a recognised religion and, as such, should therefore be allowed the same religious holidays as any other religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:46 AM

Bank holidays are not the same as religious holidays. I daresay you would have the rigyt to take a religious holiday but it would have to come out of your annual leave. I can't see any new bank holidays beiing based on religious holidays else we'd never be working.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: mandotim
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:49 AM

I'm really interested in the pre-Christian side of this (which I confess to knowing nothing about.) What was the significance of Samhain? (come to that, how DO you pronounce it, for the less educated of us?.
Had the usual trick-or-treaters round last night; all around 16 years old, demanding sweets with menaces. My standard response is to ask 'Are you Americans?' If the answer is 'no', then I ask why they are performing an American tradition in the UK? I then offer them some sweets if they can tell me why we celebrate Halloween, and what the proper name for it is in the Christian tradition. Doesn't take long for the word to get round, don't usually get more than a couple of knocks on the door. Similar approach for the 'carol singers' at Christmas. When they sing the first two lines of 'Away in a Manger' and stick the hand out for the cash, I go and get the guitar and the carol sheets and have them sing a few good ones all the way through. Again, word gets around. It's fun being a grumpy old man!
Tim


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 06:33 AM

Pronounced as = sow-ann.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 06:53 AM

Manitas, I was meaning in the same way as any other relgious holiday, but as I teach and my holidays are set, the two biggest days for us are in term time. Teachers have no 'annual leave' as such. This is something which is being considered already under the new legislation and I did bring it up at the highest levels as part of the government consultation. The same applies to anyone who has set holidays whose religious obsevance days are outside of their set holidays. I am not talking about having them as Bank Holidays and didn't say that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 10:38 AM

Samhain was a hig holy day of the pre-Christian Celts. It celebrated the completed harvest and the start of a new year. During this time of transition barriers between yhe natural and supernatural world were reduced and spirits could easily return. Even after Christianity became the new religion of the Celts they continued to observe Samhain. When the clergy could not stamp out, what they considered a pagan practice, Rome invented All Saints Day to mask the celebration and to try and give it some legitamacy. Many aspects of other Christian hollidays also reflect Celtic Druidism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 10:42 AM

hig   "big"


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,An Bochdan Doribh
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 10:44 AM

yhe "the"

Bochdan needs a proofreader.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 11:37 AM

"the celtic/pagan new year. On this night we think back to our ancesters and what has gone before, we review the past year and let go what we must. We take the spark of light and spirit of hope into the new year to start the wheel's journey through the year once more."

What a load of New Age claptrap.... Who sold you the books you got that from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: mandotim
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 11:38 AM

Thanks for the info folks; it's encouraged me to go and do some serious reading. Any recommendations?
Tim


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 12:59 PM

Mandotim... it was a British tradition first, predating the America we know by some hundreds of years..

People would go around neighbouring farms/villages in disguise (or guise, from which we get 'geezer'), singing and playing music, dancing or acting a folk play (like the Christmas Mummers plays) in exchange for beer. If the householder didn't let them in, they ran the risk of having water barrels upended, chicken coops opened or other pranks. It was a good way of blowing off steam and getting your own back on people who had ticked you off during the previous year.


LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: lady penelope
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:21 PM

Clinton, my mother will be delighted to hear some one thinks she is a 'New Age' book full of claptrap. Her mother, Granny Burns, would merely call you something along the lines of "an arrogant sod who thinks he knows it all and is too rude to keep it to himself". This is a discription I would not debate.

No one made you read this thread. If it offends thine eye, why not go parade your ignorance elsewhere?


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:39 PM

The ignorance here is not mine.

The plural of "evidence" is neither "anecdote" nor "tradition"


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:52 PM

Tim, Ted does much the same sort of thing. He sings "Soulcake" to them at this time of year.

Cats, all the time my children have been at school they have had Beltane off and the schools have been told that it is a religious festival for us. No one has ever argued or questioned it.

Lady P. I shouldn't bother to read CH's posts either if I were you. I always pass them by.

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: lady penelope
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 02:01 PM

And disclaming something as "New age clap trap" with no corroborative evidence is no demonstration of knowledge of any given subject either Mr Hammond.

It appears your opinion of what I have to say about Halloween, is that it is worthless. Fair enough. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

Yet I fail to see the reason you feel compelled to comment on it in such derisory and confrontational manner, whilst complaining of a lack of evidence. Especially considering that you have failed to present anything resembling a supported argument yourself.

Would you care to enlighten me as to a) what, precisely, you take exception to and   b) what, in your opinion, is the reality of the matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 02:39 PM

There are two meanings to the word ignorant. One is a lack of understanding. The other, as used here in Lancashire and I am sure in other areas, is similar to rude or bad-mannered. Thus, if someone pushes their way to the front of queue they would be an 'ignorant bugger'. If someone however was to show a lack of understanding in a particulary bad-mannered way I think the only term to use would be an ignorant ignoramus. Any use to anyone?

Cheers and belated Samhain wishes to all.

:D (tG)

(BTW - I thought it was pronounced some-when. Dunno why.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,Lexie Luther
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 03:24 PM

Aw don't be too hard on Clinton! He's just funning. He don't really mean it and it isn't totally his fault that he was born with SHIT for brains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: MBSLynne
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 09:55 AM

To quote from "Alice"...."He only does it to annoy because he knows it teases"

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Cats
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 12:49 PM

Lynne, You can take your children out of school for religious observance but it is different if you teach and try to get it off. Nevertheless, I'm trying......


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 01:56 PM

"no corroborative evidence"

Start here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Age

follow the links, especially in the referance section.

Do your own homework


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: lady penelope
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM

Do my own homework? So I'm to spend time and energy researching why you are being derisive towards me, whilst you cannot even be bothered to answer a straightforward question?

Fine. If you want to act like a five year old child, that's entirely up to you Master Hammond.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 04:06 PM

I provided you with a damn good source of 'evidence'.

Are you afraid to read it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 05:34 PM

Wikipedia? A damn good source of evidence? Excuse me a moment...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry about that. Oh, hang on, I feel another fit coming on.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Cough, cough, cough.

I've had a drink of water. Better now.

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 05:39 PM

Wiki is a damn good place to START... which is exactly what I said.

So choke on it DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 05:40 PM

I suppose I should give a reason for my outburst:-)

Here's one where the founder himself casts some doubts and a panel do some independant research. I know the Guardian has it's faults but I know who I would sooner believe.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 05:42 PM

Forgot to ask btw - save me going onto PM - How's Sarah? Had the op yet?

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 05:55 PM

I know of very few librarians these days who don't use Wikipedia. It's an online encyclopedia, and a damn interesting experiment in the construction of knowledge.

And it is NOT considered a joke by anyone who does quick checks of facts a million times a day, any more than googling is.

Time for some of you to crawl out of the stone age of Samhain and smell the Starbucks cappucino.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 05:57 PM

Sarah is fine and Jim-Dandy. She's looking over my shoulder and wondering if you could miss the point of Wiki any more than you already have.

When looking ANYTHING up, you never trust any ONE single source without corroboration... Even the most neanderthal of first year university student knows that. (Or they should if their high school education was worth the powder to blow it to hell)

Don't think of Wiki as an encyclopaedia.... Think of Wiki as a library. A resource for finding sources, and sources of sources. Read those sources. Read every source you can. Then maybe, just maybe you'll have enough information at hand to form your own valid opinion on a given subject.

Or you can go to the New Age Book Store and buy some worthless piece of tripe from Rama The Medium, and swallow that tosh.

While you're at it, why don't you also teach it to your children, so they can also grow up to be blinkered, superstitious twits who'll also support charlatans like Rama The Medium.

Maybe they'll even become Scientologists.

I'll be teaching my kid how to think for him/herself, and how to beat the crap out of your kid when the teacher ain't looking


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 06:14 PM

Hehehe - Nice one Clinton and well put. Glad Sarah is well and all the best to both of you.

I thought the best piece of advice I ever got was don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. The other one was never take advice when it is given for free but that's another story...

I still wonder though why you would believe ANY internet source. I don't believe in what you term 'New Age Nonsense' myself BTW any more than I believe in Christian, Moslem, Buddhist or Satanist nonsense but I do respect other peoples rights to do so. If people want to call October 31st Samhain and celebrate it, then why not? We all need to celebrate something sometime don't we?

How about Wednesday week? It's Gluthinjurthen day - Involves sending me loads of money. Up for it?

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 06:19 PM

Sorry Guest - missed you. Anyone who 'does quick checks of facts a million times a day' must be very special indeed. Anyone using Wikipedia as THE definitive source must be even more special.

No wonder the world is in trouble...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 06:39 PM

"nonsense but I do respect other peoples rights to do so"
Ignorance and self-delusion are twin stones around the neck of the human race... And it's deep water to begin with


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 06:52 PM

I don't understand how your last statement fits in with respecting other peoples rights, Clinton. Can you explain please? Is respect anything to do with ignorance or self delusion? I think not but I am prepared to be educated. I doubt that I will ever be convinced that my respect for your viewpoints are either ignorant or self delusional though. Unless of course you are not expressing your real views here, in which case my respect for them is indeed as you state. Only you can say if my respect for yor viewpoint is wrong in some way!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 09:09 PM

I reject the assertion that people have the "RIGHT" to impede human development by wallowing in, and perpetuating stupidstition and ignorance.

-IF- they do have that right, then I have the right to treat them as I see fit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: lady penelope
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 07:25 AM

Master Hammond, who said I didn't read it? Oh and by the way I think Wikipedia is a good starting point for many things.

None of that actually answers the questions I asked you. But you're too busy being an intollerant, arrogant know all who cannot be gain sayed, to bother actually replying to a mere mortal as myself.

I beg your forgives oh holder of absolute knowledge and enlightenment, pray let me remove myself from your presence lest I infect your divinty with my atrophied and raddled mentality.... I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 07:35 AM

I also reject that people have the right to impede human development.

How does that statement fit in this context? Where and when has wishing anyone a happy whatever impeded human development? If it does then I guess that all recent human problems come down to shop assistants and waiters wishing us a nice day! Perhaps we can start a campain to stop them and thereby improve our lot drasticaly?

Sorry if I am hijacking the Samhain thread here people - But as it was a couple of days back I guess you have all done with wishing each other a good 'un? I want to get the bottom of why Clinton believes that wishing each other a happy some-when-where-thing is so offensive:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 07:41 AM

BTW - I am neither Christian, Hindu, Moslem or Pagan. Doesn't stop me celebrating Christmas, Diwali, Eid or Samhain. The more excuses the merrier:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Micca
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 11:59 AM

Dave,weren't you more Russian Unorthodox,at one time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 12:36 PM

I Certainly was Micca me old Mucca. My Grandad was a Russian Orthodox priest. Dad had us coverted to Catholocism, or was it North Sea Gas, in the 60's. No wonder I'm confused.

I was down near you last weekend but had only a day to do some work at Cannery Warts so didn't get chance to ring. See you sooner rather than later all being well. You up here anytime?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 12:53 PM

" I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy......."

If you're not, you did it to yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: lady penelope
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 01:30 PM

What ever you say master.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 01:50 PM

I wouldn't WANT to be your master


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 01:57 PM

I'd hate to be ANYONES master! Perish the thought...

Anyroads, Come on, Clinton. I have this irrational urge to know what impeding human development has to do with wishing people a happy Samhain. Or should that be a blessed (stress BOTH sylables please) Samhain? I also have the strangest feeling that your explanation will cure that urge:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: lady penelope
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 02:13 PM

No, no, no, Dave. The Hammond is right, we must listen to Him. We must think for ourselves, we only wait to be told what it is we're to think about.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 02:25 PM

Samhain ne'er in vain


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 07:17 AM

Forget Moslems and Jews. Forget the middle East. Try Catholics and Pagans at Glastonbury instead:-)

See here.

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: lady penelope
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 12:19 PM

I'm sad to say that there is no group of ideologists that doesn't have extrememists or fanatics in it, pagans included. I tend to go with "people are weird" and work round them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 12:25 PM

Skeptics have no fanatics...

A skeptic will change his mind in light of new, well supported evidence.

A fanatic wil blither on down a path they THINK they know, regardless of road signs and street lights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 01:26 PM

Of course skeptics have fanatics, Clinton. You have taken skepticism to such a degree that it comes across as very exteme. Why else use such terms as a load of New Age claptrap., buy some worthless piece of tripe from Rama and I have the right to treat them as I see fit. These are not the words of a moderate.

And I still looking forward to finding out what sending Samhain blessings has to do with impeding the progress of mankind.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 02:02 PM

"Of course skeptics have fanatics,"
I'll post it again because I guess you couldn't read it the first time

Skeptics have no fanatics...

A skeptic will change his mind in light of new, well supported evidence.

A fanatic wil blither on down a path they THINK they know, regardless of road signs and street lights.

It's about attitude, not language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 02:07 PM

Maybe some of you should read this....

Good And Bad Reasons For Believing

Dear Juliet,
Now that you are ten, I want to write to you about something that is important
to me. Have you ever wondered how we know the things that we know? How do we
know, for instance, that the stars, which look like tiny pinpricks in the sky,
are really huge balls of fire like the sun and are very far away? And how do we
know that Earth is a smaller ball whirling round one of those stars, the sun?
The answer to these questions is "evidence." Sometimes evidence means actually
seeing ( or hearing, feeling, smelling..... ) that something is true. Astronauts
have travelled far enough from earth to see with their own eyes that it is
round. Sometimes our eyes need help. The "evening star" looks like a bright
twinkle in the sky, but with a telescope, you can see that it is a beautiful
ball - the planet we call Venus. Something that you learn by direct seeing ( or
hearing or feeling..... ) is called an observation.
Often, evidence isn't just an observation on its own, but observation always
lies at the back of it. If there's been a murder, often nobody (except the
murderer and the victim!) actually observed it. But detectives can gather
together lots or other observations which may all point toward a particular
suspect. If a person's fingerprints match those found on a dagger, this is
evidence that he touched it. It doesn't prove that he did the murder, but it can
help when it's joined up with lots of other evidence. Sometimes a detective can
think about a whole lot of observations and suddenly realise that they fall into
place and make sense if so-and-so did the murder.
Scientists - the specialists in discovering what is true about the world and the
universe - often work like detectives. They make a guess ( called a hypothesis )
about what might be true. They then say to themselves: If that were really true,
we ought to see so-and-so. This is called a prediction. For example, if the
world is really round, we can predict that a traveller, going on and on in the
same direction, should eventually find himself back where he started.When a
doctor says that you have the measles, he doesn't take one look at you and see
measles. His first look gives him a hypothesis that you may have measles. Then
he says to himself: If she has measles I ought to see...... Then he runs through
the list of predictions and tests them with his eyes ( have you got spots? );
hands ( is your forehead hot? ); and ears ( does your chest wheeze in a measly
way? ). Only then does he make his decision and say, " I diagnose that the child
has measles. " Sometimes doctors need to do other tests like blood tests or
X-Rays, which help their eyes, hands, and ears to make observations.
The way scientists use evidence to learn about the world is much cleverer and
more complicated than I can say in a short letter. But now I want to move on
from evidence, which is a good reason for believing something , and warn you
against three bad reasons for believing anything. They are called "tradition,"
"authority," and "revelation."
First, tradition. A few months ago, I went on television to have a discussion
with about fifty children. These children were invited because they had been
brought up in lots of different religions. Some had been brought up as
Christians, others as Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or Sikhs. The man with the
microphone went from child to child, asking them what they believed. What they
said shows up exactly what I mean by "tradition." Their beliefs turned out to
have no connection with evidence. They just trotted out the beliefs of their
parents and grandparents which, in turn, were not based upon evidence either.
They said things like: "We Hindus believe so and so"; "We Muslims believe such
and such"; "We Christians believe something else."
Of course, since they all believed different things, they couldn't all be right.
The man with the microphone seemed to think this quite right and proper, and he
didn't even try to get them to argue out their differences with each other. But
that isn't the point I want to make for the moment. I simply want to ask where
their beliefs come from. They came from tradition. Tradition means beliefs
handed down from grandparent to parent to child, and so on. Or from books handed
down through the centuries. Traditional beliefs often start from almost nothing;
perhaps somebody just makes them up originally, like the stories about Thor and
Zeus. But after they've been handed down over some centuries, the mere fact that
they are so old makes them seem special. People believe things simply because
people have believed the same thing over the centuries. That's tradition.
The trouble with tradition is that, no matter how long ago a story was made up,
it is still exactly as true or untrue as the original story was. If you make up
a story that isn't true, handing it down over a number of centuries doesn't make
it any truer!
Most people in England have been baptised into the Church of England, but this
is only one of the branches of the Christian religion. There are other branches
such as Russian Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Methodist churches. They
all believe different things. The Jewish religion and the Muslim religion are a
bit more different still; and there are different kinds of Jews and of Muslims.
People who believe even slightly different things from each other go to war over
their disagreements. So you might think that they must have some pretty good
reasons - evidence - for believing what they believe. But actually, their
different beliefs are entirely due to different traditions.
Let's talk about one particular tradition. Roman Catholics believe that Mary,
the mother of Jesus, was so special that she didn't die but was lifted bodily in
to Heaven. Other Christian traditions disagree, saying that Mary did die like
anybody else. These other religions don't talk about much and, unlike Roman
Catholics, they don't call her the "Queen of Heaven." The tradition that Mary's
body was lifted into Heaven is not an old one. The bible says nothing on how she
died; in fact, the poor woman is scarcely mentioned in the Bible at all. The
belief that her body was lifted into Heaven wasn't invented until about six
centuries after Jesus' time. At first, it was just made up, in the same way as
any story like "Snow White" was made up. But, over the centuries, it grew into a
tradition and people started to take it seriously simply because the story had
been handed down over so many generations. The older the tradition became, the
more people took it seriously. It finally was written down as and official Roman
Catholic belief only very recently, in 1950, when I was the age you are now. But
the story was no more true in 1950 than it was when it was first invented six
hundred years after Mary's death.
I'll come back to tradition at the end of my letter, and look at it in another
way. But first, I must deal with the two other bad reasons for believing in
anything: authority and revelation.
Authority, as a reason for believing something, means believing in it because
you are told to believe it by somebody important. In the Roman Catholic Church,
the pope is the most important person, and people believe he must be right just
because he is the pope. In one branch of the Muslim religion, the important
people are the old men with beards called ayatollahs. Lots of Muslims in this
country are prepared to commit murder, purely because the ayatollahs in a
faraway country tell them to.
When I say that it was only in 1950 that Roman Catholics were finally told that
they had to believe that Mary's body shot off to Heaven, what I mean is that in
1950, the pope told people that they had to believe it. That was it. The pope
said it was true, so it had to be true! Now, probably some of the things that
that pope said in his life were true and some were not true. There is no good
reason why, just because he was the pope, you should believe everything he said
any more than you believe everything that other people say. The present pope (
1995 ) has ordered his followers not to limit the number of babies they have. If
people follow this authority as slavishly as he would wish, the results could be
terrible famines, diseases, and wars, caused by overcrowding.
Of course, even in science, sometimes we haven't seen the evidence ourselves and
we have to take somebody else's word for it. I haven't, with my own eyes, seen
the evidence that light travels at a speed of 186,000 miles per second. Instead,
I believe books that tell me the speed of light. This looks like "authority."
But actually, it is much better than authority, because the people who wrote the
books have seen the evidence and anyone is free to look carefully at the
evidence whenever they want. That is very comforting. But not even the priests
claim that there is any evidence for their story about Mary's body zooming off
to Heaven.
The third kind of bad reason for believing anything is called "revelation." If
you had asked the pope in 1950 how he knew that Mary's body disappeared into
Heaven, he would probably have said that it had been "revealed" to him. He shut
himself in his room and prayed for guidance. He thought and thought, all by
himself, and he became more and more sure inside himself. When religious people
just have a feeling inside themselves that something must be true, even though
there is no evidence that it is true, they call their feeling "revelation." It
isn't only popes who claim to have revelations. Lots of religious people do. It
is one of their main reasons for believing the things that they do believe. But
is it a good reason?
Suppose I told you that your dog was dead. You'd be very upset, and you'd
probably say, "Are you sure? How do you know? How did it happen?" Now suppose I
answered: "I don't actually know that Pepe is dead. I have no evidence. I just
have a funny feeling deep inside me that he is dead." You'd be pretty cross with
me for scaring you, because you'd know that an inside "feeling" on its own is
not a good reason for believing that a whippet is dead. You need evidence. We
all have inside feelings from time to time, sometimes they turn out to be right
and sometimes they don't. Anyway, different people have opposite feelings, so
how are we to decide whose feeling is right? The only way to be sure that a dog
is dead is to see him dead, or hear that his heart has stopped; or be told by
somebody who has seen or heard some real evidence that he is dead.
People sometimes say that you must believe in feelings deep inside, otherwise,
you' d never be confident of things like "My wife loves me." But this is a bad
argument. There can be plenty of evidence that somebody loves you. All through
the day when you are with somebody who loves you, you see and hear lots of
little titbits of evidence, and they all add up. It isn't a purely inside
feeling, like the feeling that priests call revelation. There are outside things
to back up the inside feeling: looks in the eye, tender notes in the voice,
little favors and kindnesses; this is all real evidence.
Sometimes people have a strong inside feeling that somebody loves them when it
is not based upon any evidence, and then they are likely to be completely wrong.
There are people with a strong inside feeling that a famous film star loves
them, when really the film star hasn't even met them. People like that are ill
in their minds. Inside feelings must be backed up by evidence, otherwise you
just can't trust them.
Inside feelings are valuable in science, too, but only for giving you ideas that
you later test by looking for evidence. A scientist can have a "hunch'" about an
idea that just "feels" right. In itself, this is not a good reason for believing
something. But it can be a good reason for spending some time doing a particular
experiment, or looking in a particular way for evidence. Scientists use inside
feelings all the time to get ideas. But they are not worth anything until they
are supported by evidence.
I promised that I'd come back to tradition, and look at it in another way. I
want to try to explain why tradition is so important to us. All animals are
built (by the process called evolution) to survive in the normal place in which
their kind live. Lions are built to be good at surviving on the plains of
Africa. Crayfish to be good at surviving in fresh, water, while lobsters are
built to be good at surviving in the salt sea. People are animals, too, and we
are built to be good at surviving in a world full of ..... other people. Most of
us don't hunt for our own food like lions or lobsters; we buy it from other
people who have bought it from yet other people. We ''swim'' through a "sea of
people." Just as a fish needs gills to survive in water, people need brains that
make them able to deal with other people. Just as the sea is full of salt water,
the sea of people is full of difficult things to learn. Like language.
You speak English, but your friend Ann-Kathrin speaks German. You each speak the
language that fits you to '`swim about" in your own separate "people sea."
Language is passed down by tradition. There is no other way . In England, Pepe
is a dog. In Germany he is ein Hund. Neither of these words is more correct, or
more true than the other. Both are simply handed down. In order to be good at
"swimming about in their people sea," children have to learn the language of
their own country, and lots of other things about their own people; and this
means that they have to absorb, like blotting paper, an enormous amount of
traditional information. (Remember that traditional information just means
things that are handed down from grandparents to parents to children.) The
child's brain has to be a sucker for traditional information. And the child
can't be expected to sort out good and useful traditional information, like the
words of a language, from bad or silly traditional information, like believing
in witches and devils and ever-living virgins.
It's a pity, but it can't help being the case, that because children have to be
suckers for traditional information, they are likely to believe anything the
grown-ups tell them, whether true or false, right or wrong. Lots of what the
grown-ups tell them is true and based on evidence, or at least sensible. But if
some of it is false, silly, or even wicked, there is nothing to stop the
children believing that, too. Now, when the children grow up, what do they do?
Well, of course, they tell it to the next generation of children. So, once
something gets itself strongly believed - even if it is completely untrue and
there never was any reason to believe it in the first place - it can go on
forever.
Could this be what has happened with religions ? Belief that there is a god or
gods, belief in Heaven, belief that Mary never died, belief that Jesus never had
a human father, belief that prayers are answered, belief that wine turns into
blood - not one of these beliefs is backed up by any good evidence. Yet millions
of people believe them. Perhaps this because they were told to believe them when
they were told to believe them when they were young enough to believe anything.
Millions of other people believe quite different things, because they were told
different things when they were children. Muslim children are told different
things from Christian children, and both grow up utterly convinced that they are
right and the others are wrong. Even within Christians, Roman Catholics believe
different things from Church of England people or Episcopalians, Shakers or
Quakers , Mormons or Holy Rollers, and are all utterly covinced that they are
right and the others are wrong. They believe different things for exactly the
same kind of reason as you speak English and Ann-Kathrin speaks German. Both
languages are, in their own country, the right language to speak. But it can't
be true that different religions are right in their own countries, because
different religions claim that opposite things are true. Mary can't be alive in
Catholic Southern Ireland but dead in Protestant Northern Ireland.
What can we do about all this ? It is not easy for you to do anything, because
you are only ten. But you could try this. Next time somebody tells you something
that sounds important, think to yourself: "Is this the kind of thing that people
probably know because of evidence? Or is it the kind of thing that people only
believe because of tradition, authority, or revelation?" And, next time somebody
tells you that something is true, why not say to them: "What kind of evidence is
there for that?" And if they can't give you a good answer, I hope you'll think
very carefully before you believe a word they say.
Your loving
Daddy
RICHARD DAWKINS is an evolutionary biologist; reader in the Department of
Zoology at Oxford University; fellow of New College. He began his research
career in the 1960s as a research student with Nobel Prize-winning ethologist
Nico Tinbergen, and ever since then, his work has largely been concerned with
the evolution of behavior. Since 1976, when his first book, The Selfish Gene,
encapsulated both the substance and the spirit of what is now called the
sociobiological revolution, he has become widely known, both for the originality
of his ideas and for the clarity and elegance with which he expounds them. A
subsequent book, The Extended Phenotype, and a number of television programs,
have extended the notion of the gene as the unit of selection, and have applied
it to biological examples as various as the relationship between hosts and
parasites and the evolution of cooperation. His following book, The Blind
Watchmaker, is widely read, widely quoted, and one of the truly influential
intellectual works of our time. He is also author of the recently published
River Out of Eden.


      Further Reading
      
      How Things Are: A Science Toolkit for the Mind
      Edited by John Brockman and Katinka Matson

Get a hint maybe of what's wrong with 'belief' based on tradition?


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 03:12 PM

I did read it and fully understand it first time, Clinton. I like your usual terse responses. Life's too short to go through long academic arguments, especialy if they are cut and pastes of someone elses work rather than your own thoughts.

Perhaps you will also appreciate me repeating myself because YOU are proof that there is such a thing as a fanatical skeptic.

You have taken skepticism to such a degree that it comes across as very exteme. Why else use such terms as a load of New Age claptrap., buy some worthless piece of tripe from Rama and I have the right to treat them as I see fit. These are not the words of a moderate.

And I still looking forward to finding out what sending Samhain blessings has to do with impeding the progress of mankind.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 04:49 PM

Tha CH lan cac! :-}


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 06:11 PM

"These are not the words of a moderate."

Who said I was a moderate?

Extreme skepticism? That's like saying 'extreme thinking'... as if it was some how, possibly a bad thing.

That someone else put it better than I cared to, does little to denegrate the subject matter.

Or is every belief, every thought, every fact in your head absolutely 100% your own, and owed to nothing and/or noone else???

Actually, that might go a long way to explaining why there are so many blinkered 'believers' in the world... They suffer from too much original thought and not enough evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 06:40 AM

Thanks Clinton. I have given up on getting an explanation for the celebration of anything stunting the growth of mankind but at least we are now getting somewhere with the skeptic bit. The way you say "who says I am a moderate" indicates that you do not consider yourself to be one. The opposite of a moderate is an extreemist. So if you are not a moderate you must consider yourself an extremist. I know you would certainly agree to the description of being a skeptic. So it would be more than fair to say you are both an extemist and a skeptic. Yet you say there is no such thing as an extreme skeptic so, by the power of your own arguments, you do not exist!

I also never said that exteme thinking was a bad thing btw. Although I do believe that extemism in anything is not necesarily a good thing. I am, in fact, skeptical that anyone who says they question everything is telling the whole truth. After all, do you question your ability to think for yourself?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 11:33 AM

Pull yer head out DtG...


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 01:41 PM

Can't, Clint - It's been there too long:-)

Not a good answer though. As the Python sketch said - This isn't argument it's just abuse. So how about a proper Hammond reasoned argument?

You say there is no such this as an exteme skeptic. I have offered my proof that there is. The evidence being presented using your good self as an example. The usual ploy now is to refute the proof by offering an alternative. How's about it? And please remember The plural of "evidence" is neither "anecdote" nor "tradition" . I would also add that evidence does not comprise of repetition or abuse.

I am, as I have already said, a confirmed skeptic myself and, as you point out, in the light of new evidence I am willing to change my mind. Are you willing to either provide that new evidence or, maybe, change your own mind?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: GUEST,Cats at Work
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 06:20 AM

I think the whole situation at Glastonbury, from both sides, was very sad. Fundamentalists from every religion are potentially dangerous and we must be aware of them and the damage they can do, not only to others, but to their own religion and the public perception of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 04:06 AM

Can I take that as a no comment then?

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 03:48 AM

I've sussed it...

Clinton Hammond is really

*

**

****


******


********


THE SHAMBLES!!!!


He's taken to repeating himself and cut/pasting long chunks of stuff.. can we get him edited now please?

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Samhain
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 07:50 AM

Hear hear.


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Mudcat time: 3 December 3:47 PM EST

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