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BS: Britain tops the yobs league

ard mhacha 02 Nov 06 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Nov 06 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,Giok 02 Nov 06 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Strollin' Johnny at the Mill 02 Nov 06 - 07:24 AM
kendall 02 Nov 06 - 07:49 AM
Paul Burke 02 Nov 06 - 08:05 AM
John MacKenzie 02 Nov 06 - 08:17 AM
Divis Sweeney 02 Nov 06 - 08:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Nov 06 - 08:31 AM
Becca72 02 Nov 06 - 08:42 AM
Maryrrf 02 Nov 06 - 08:51 AM
Den 02 Nov 06 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Strollin' Johnny at the Mill 02 Nov 06 - 09:54 AM
ard mhacha 02 Nov 06 - 10:13 AM
ard mhacha 02 Nov 06 - 10:52 AM
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The Villan 02 Nov 06 - 12:58 PM
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Shields Folk 08 Nov 06 - 04:31 PM
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ard mhacha 20 Nov 06 - 08:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 06 - 10:50 AM
Strollin' Johnny 20 Nov 06 - 12:01 PM
ard mhacha 20 Nov 06 - 01:09 PM
ard mhacha 20 Nov 06 - 01:15 PM
ard mhacha 20 Nov 06 - 01:23 PM
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ard mhacha 20 Nov 06 - 02:14 PM
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Divis Sweeney 20 Nov 06 - 03:42 PM
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ard mhacha 21 Nov 06 - 04:05 AM
ard mhacha 21 Nov 06 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Nov 06 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,memyself 21 Nov 06 - 09:20 AM
GUEST 21 Nov 06 - 10:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Nov 06 - 10:07 AM
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ard mhacha 25 Nov 06 - 07:33 AM
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ard mhacha 25 Nov 06 - 04:35 PM
ard mhacha 25 Nov 06 - 04:43 PM
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ard mhacha 26 Nov 06 - 06:30 AM
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GUEST,another guest 26 Nov 06 - 07:33 AM
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Den 02 Dec 06 - 02:50 PM
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ard mhacha 04 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM
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ard mhacha 05 Dec 06 - 04:54 AM
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ard mhacha 05 Dec 06 - 10:11 AM
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Subject: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 06:58 AM

So it`s official at last, a survey by, The Institute for public policy research has confirmed that British teenagers are among the worst beheaved in Europe, the IPPR blamed it on a collapse in family and community life.

Their comparisions between British families and other Europeran communities showed a big discrepancy in alcoholic consumption with the British chidren binge drinking from an early age.

I have for long asked the question on this Site about the evidence put before our eyes on all of the UK News reports, and asked for similar evidence from our cattters on the European mainland, this survey has done that for us.

In case some worthy Brit accuses me of bias I can tell them that the condemnation in that report also applies to Ireland, all 32 counties.

Is there any hope for our teenagers?, not from what I observe in our streets, the lost generation is well and truly with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 07:07 AM

Worthy Brit?
I am surprised that the situation is the same in Ireland.
I have blamed the UK school system which since about 1970 has frowned on teachers imposing their values on their students, or making students do anything that they would rather not.
We called it "child centred education"
I thought Irish schools had escaped all that tosh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 07:18 AM

There was a lady who's child had been murdered being interviewed on TV a couple of nights ago, and she blamed the government for taking the power away from the parents, and handing it to the children.
She wasn't exactly right, but then again she wasn't exactly wrong either.
Children now are ill disciplined, badly brought up, and overly indulged; end of story. While I don't advocate corporal punishment to excess, or for it's own sake, it DOES still have a place in disciplining children, and others.
Until parents are made TOTALLY responsible for the behavior of their offspring, feckless and irresponsible parents will continue to impose their nauseating offspring on the world.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny at the Mill
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 07:24 AM

It's been downhill since they did away with National Service, stopped schools using the stick, and involved untrained, know-it-all parents in running schools. They've systematically destroyed discipline - what the f**k else did those daft-bastard PC dickheads expect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 07:49 AM

The only thing that a child is going to learn from corporal punishment is that big people get to hit little people. Like being molested, they grow up to be molesters. Setting an example goes much deeper than just giving them a whack on the bum. Kids learn by example. My father was a drunk who was seldom around. My mother was not an affectionate person and she was always working to keep us together. Neither of them ever laid a stick or a hand on me, but I learned how to act by watching them. My Mother was an honorable woman, and I admired her for that. My father, well, as they say, "No man ever need be a total failure...he can always serve as a bad example."

Here is a graphic example. Elephants. They live in social groups with certain rules. Recently, in Africa, so many of the big bulls were killed to relieve over grazing, that the young bulls began to act like juvenile delinquents. They bullied and even killed many Rhinoceros. It got to be a serious problem, then some genius figured out that the punks didn't know any better because the old bulls were not around to keep them in check. They came into "Musk" way too soon and simply couldn't handle the testosterone at their tender age.
Then, the keepers began to import full grown bulls from another region, and the problem stopped. The punks went out of Musk, and things returned to normal.
Just another example of man frigging with nature and causing more problems than solutions.

You want good kids who are going somewhere in life? Be a good parent! Kicking their asses will only make them ass kickers. I have three beautiful daughters who turned out just fine without beatings. I like to believe it is because they respect me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 08:05 AM

Britain's kids are yobs (not all of them, not even a majority) beacuse our society is crippled. How do you succeed in Britain? Best way is to be born rich. Second best way is to break the law. Third best is to cheat and lie. Last best, get educated and work hard.

What are our ideals? To get famous for the sake of being famous. To show off your success with a big house, guzzling car, grededy lifestyle. How do you bring up kids? Give them anything but your time and attention, sit them in front of a video so you don't have to read to them, tell them stories, sing. get a childminder to keep them in front of their video all day. Teach them contempt for the law, after all speed cameras are only there to raise revenue.

Teach them that only anoraks do anything constructive, that violence is cool, that wearing Man U tattoos and knowing football trivia is mainstream, but wearing a raincoat and knowing train trivia is weird.
That fashion is imnportant. That their main role in life is to be a consumer of whatever mass produced goods they want to sell you this week.

PC teachers? who educates kids for the 85% of the time they aren't in school. Child centred education? or conmmercially- centred education?

family life? What's the divorce rate? Of my kids' circle (middle class rural) only about 1 in 5 have parents together. How are kids supposed to learn to relate to others when their parents can't even relate to each other?

National service? Ever tried thinking for yourself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 08:17 AM

Well Kendall if kids learn by example, and properly administered corporal punishment isn't PART of the answer, where do children learn to hit other children from if they don't learn it from thier parents? And what do you do about it when it occurs?
How does a child know it hurts if he's not hit back when he has been violent to another person. Do they just think, 'Oh that's OK, Jerry in Tom and Jerry just pops back into shape after he's been hit, so will that little boy I just smashed on the head with a rock' ?
Sorry Cap'n but with kids it's 'Monkey see monkey do', the punishment must fit the crime, up to but not including capital punishment, because we are men and not Gods.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 08:20 AM

Kids today know the law inside out, in my growing up years if I heard the words "I'll tell your da" that was enough. We showed respect to those we lived among. Today if you say anything to them, it's "you can't do anything, I'm a minor"

These days people are more inclined to own their own houses and take pride in their gardens. If you have reason to complaint to a parent, you find they are quick to defend their kids, whatever they did.

I never had reason to hammer my son, if he did something I felt was wrong, I used to say, right I will talk to you later about this. He kept out of my way for days, and would come to me and near beg to get it over with ! Leaving him thinking about what he did worked for me.

As to were my parents went wrong with me, they tried God bless them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 08:31 AM

Paul, I agree with your points, but thsose factors do not only apply here.
We have to look at what is different for kids in this country.
That is why I suspect our school system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Becca72
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 08:42 AM

As one of Kendall's daughters I have to say that I think he and I have a very good relationship, we have always been close and he has never laid a hand on me for any reason. He never had to. He knew how to discipline us without smacking us around. I would never have dreamed of acting up like I see some children doing today, throwing a hissy fit in the middle of a store, and it wasn't the threat of violence that kept me from doing it. It was love and respect for my father, and knowing that was not acceptible behavior and wouldn't get me anywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 08:51 AM

It isn't just the UK ! Recently in my usually quiet neighborhood - a suburb of Richmond, VA there has been a wave of vandalism complete with graffiti, heaving bricks through windows (one of which narrowly missed my son)and they even burned one neighbors car up (it was completely destroyed, apparently they had dowsed it with a flammable liquid). There is no rhyme or reason to it, and the police are sure it is kids (they haven't any proof as to exactly which ones) between the ages of 13 and 15 who are doing this for kicks.   Even if they get caught, most likely nothing will happen to the little bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Den
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 09:13 AM

I don't think you can really lay the blame at the door of the schools Keith. I think it is a societal problem. With both parents working these days there is little time invested in the up-bringing of kids. Its a sad reality that a lot of kids tend to get more feedback from the TV than they do from their parents. Here in Canada it isn't much different.

We have a relatively new phenomenon (new to us in NS) occuring here, where gangs of teenagers are "swarming" innocent passers-by, beating them and robbing them. We have friends who run a daycare who have parents wanting to drop their kids off on national holidays because they need some time for themselves. In years past extended families (grandparents etc)lived together and acted almost like small communities. There was always an adult on hand to look out for the children. Now-a-days we can't wait to rush the old folks into homes and the kids out on their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny at the Mill
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 09:54 AM

Sorry kendall, I know where you're coming from and, in a perfect world, it might, just ever-so-slightly possibly, work. Unfortunately this world is far from perfect, and for every goody-two-shoes kid, there are dozens of little hooligans whose reaction to a pat on the head is to kick the patter in the balls.

When I was at school, we were caned if we misbehaved. We behaved.

When I was at school, teachers were in charge of the classroom. If you went home to your parents and told them you'd had a slap or the cane from the teaccher, you got another, very hard, clout from your dad. We behaved.

National Service taught young men to be clean, accept discipline, and have the work-ethic, self-discipline and self-respect.

The level of crime, hooliganism and vandalism amongst teenagers then was a tiny fraction of that today.

QED for me, and no-one will persuade me otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 10:13 AM

The unanswered question is how do those parents on the mainland, [or is it also single parent there as well] manage to have more disciplined children.
We have much to learn from a more civilised mainland Europe, witness the scum that trail after English football teams, and wonder why the citizens of the Mainland tolerate us, even the towns of sunny Spain can look on in bewilderment at the druken slobs that are a summer pestilence, yes, as far as civilisation goes we are light years behind.

Study how its done there must be a lesson to learn from mainland Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 10:52 AM

Regarding National Service, we didn`t have NS in Ireland and we didn`t have the kind of alcohol and drug fueled mayhem we have been seeing in our towns over the past 20 years, from then disipline has been very quickly disappearing with our teenagers.

Can any of you feel safe meeting a mob of drunken-drug filled youngsters in the late evening or God forbid the wee small hours, your life in their hands and i`m not referring to the old TV programme, I and many others of my age group don`t feel safe to walk our streets, it has come to that.

The Government in a hopeless attempt to curtail this behaviour issuse, Anti Osial Behaviour Orders, to persistent offenders, now according to this mornings TV News, the young scum regard this as a medal of honour, and are idolised by their friends if thay are ASBO lads, funny if it wasn`t so serious, it certainly looks a hopeless task.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Den
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 11:07 AM

You have to have a license to drive a car but any irresponsible asshole is free to concieve children. Parents should know where their children are and who they are with at any time of the day, that's your responsibility, no if's and's or but's. There has been an idea put before local council here to have parents held responsible for the anti-social behaviour of their kids. Once the parents start to get hit in the wallet for the misdemeanors of their unruley kids that may start to raise their level of conscience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 11:57 AM

Kids are not stupid. Telling them to do something, then you doing the opposite is a sure way to lose their respect.

Running red lights, cheating on your taxes, swearing at people in public, stealing small items from stores, swilling beer and watching football all day etc. Homer Simpson is an exaggeration, but it's too close to the truth to be funny.

These little things are what moulds kids. Beware! they are watching you!

A good example, one of my relatives entered his living room and when he saw that his young daughter was watching a tv show with black people in it, he turned it off, saying, "We don't watch nigger shows in this house."
Sometime later, he was watching a prize fight between two black fighters, and the daughter turned it off sayin "We don't watch nigger shows in this house."

Do as I say, not as I do just doesn't cut it anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: The Villan
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 12:58 PM

I agree with Strollin' Johnny.

However, I blame parents, who don't seem to give a toss about discipline.

I keep on saying this, but if my wife and I can do it, then parents with normal children can - we have an ADHD girl 15 and an Autistic girl 11. They are well mannered and respect other people. They have their problems, but one thing we have done is teach them morality and to respect each other.

Quote
There was a lady who's child had been murdered being interviewed on TV a couple of nights ago, and she blamed the government for taking the power away from the parents, and handing it to the children.
She wasn't exactly right, but then again she wasn't exactly wrong either.
Children now are ill disciplined, badly brought up, and overly indulged; end of story. While I don't advocate corporal punishment to excess, or for it's own sake, it DOES still have a place in disciplining children, and others.
Until parents are made TOTALLY responsible for the behavior of their offspring, feckless and irresponsible parents will continue to impose their nauseating offspring on the world.
Giok
End of quote.

I don't entirely agree, based on what I said above. The parents are one of the biggest problems in all of this. They don't seem to care what their kids are up to, and let them wander the streets causing mayhem. I am convinced a lot of the kids today have learnt it from their parents who are the ASBO's.
Put the buggers in the forces and sort them out. Why are these minority of plebs ruling our lives. Becuase we are too weak to stand up and be counted. And why don't we tell thses PC people to stick their stupid ideas up their own arses.

As I say we haven't allowed our children to become plebs, and there are a lot of decent kids around, but theses mindless yobos are giving them a bad name.

Lets get tough and put the ba*****s in the army and send them to Iraq etc. That will sort the buggers out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 01:44 PM

Sorry Villan to disagree some of the biggest culprits I came across were British Army troops, and as I said previous we had no NS and we behaved responsible, until this present lot of indiciplined rabble arrived on our streets.
Parents cannot behave responsble if they are to be found drinking in their local night after night, Villan look around you and tell me if the parents you meet every day are responsible, I spent years in England and the pub was the hub for most husbands.
Learn from resposible people look to Europe for guidance they are better behaved or this report is a lie, and I don`t think it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Dandruff suffer
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 02:00 PM

Agreed, figures for young parents abusing drink and drugs has went through the roof. Last Saturday night I met children as young as ten still walking the streets after midnight. Young mums hit the streets in "hunting packs" every weekend. Kids come down the stairs next morning to a series of "uncles". There is no committment to marriage anymore, seperation is too easy these days, no need to stick around and work out their problems. How many "new or part time" daddies give a toss about some other guys children. This is not the whole problem, but it's a hell of a lot of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 03:07 PM

I think a major part of the problem is that if any adult seeks to rebuke or restrain a child, or if a young lout is doing damage, first the adult will be accused of everything from being a paedophile to a thug, assaulted by the child, and if he defends himself he will then be officially accused of violence against the child.

The child will get of scot free either as irrebuttably doli incapax (under 10 - like kids in Sheerness who last week caused tens of thousands of poundsworth of damage in a car showroom using the roofs of cars as trampolines - and proving they knew that they were doing wrong by hiding when anyone walked by the showroom - I've seen the pictures from the CCTV) or rebuttably doli incapax (10 to 14) where it has to be shown that the child knew tha twhat it was ding was wrong.

So there is neither formal nor informal sanction for the wrongdoing of youth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: The Villan
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 03:26 PM

>>Parents cannot behave responsble if they are to be found drinking in their local night after night, <<

Thats what I mean. its the parents.

I don't behave like that and I do not expect my children to behave like that.

I personally do not see why I have to put up with such diabolical behaviour.

Lets get tough or are we all whimps.

Lets start fighting for the rights for police to get stuck intop these yobos and sort them out.

I lived in Holland for 13 years and going into the forces was a rule and the police had control. The police get stuck in over there and you won't hear me complain. I have seen the police empty the complete end of a foorball ground in minutes - no messin g around. I have also seen the police over their hit people if they misbehave.

Over here the police don't stand a chance. We have taken all the power away from them. Why do we have a police force to protect us and then not allow them to ptotect us. Doesn't make sense to me.
I have no time for these ignorent/badly behaved yobos and I do not have any time for these stupid PC brigade who are stopping us have law and order.

ard m - I agree that the minority make the headlines and get away with law and order and that makes this country look bad. If we don't do anything quickly we will be in more serious problems.

However I have a folk club and everybody in there are responsible people and we all trust each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 04:29 PM

I'm not saying that we should do away with discipline, I am saying corporal punishment should not be the FIRST resort. If you can't outsmart them you shouldn't have them. take some classes in parenting, you are not born with the skills to raise kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 04:52 PM

Fair play to you Villan and all in the Folk Club, but you must concede that the pub is the be all and end all for most "fathers", I have seen them here and also across the water, at one time you went in fear of your teacher, now some of the teachers lives are made a misery by these young thugs.
I am pleased I am not involved with these youngsters any more, I was at one time when I helped with my local GAA team, at that time all the children were interested in was football, I amm told by some of the men now in charge that it is almost impossible to keep the young men at the Club, drink, drugs and girls are the main attraction, and this is the under16 team, and you wonder why the English premier league has few young English lads making on to the first team, this could be one of the main reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 04:56 PM

Les: The problem with taking a tough stand is that even more aggro will be heaped on your head!

Rhiannon, who knows from experience!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 05:29 PM

I don't think we can discount the differing ways that children are actually brought up in countries within Europe, other than UK.

Go to Italy, Spain, France, Greece etc etc... in the evenings you see children out with their parents. They start school earlier in the morning, they finish earlier in the afternoon and they have their siesta.

They are taken out to eat in restaurants as part of the family, not stuck at home with a 14year old babysitter while their parents socialise elsewhere.

Children in the UK are not taught how to act in company. They are generally dissuaded from being with adults in the evenings. Reap what you sow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 06:00 PM

England is an overcrowded place and we got industrialisation before everywhere else. So we got its problems to the power of ten. The problem is that if you keep expanding the economy - the society keeps changing - so there is little stability.

its no use whining that its not 1952 an we can't send Len hutton out to bat for us, give the bounders a good hiding etc. the population has doubled since then - there have been two or three social revolutions. We used to sneer at America's problems - nowadays we realise those same problems are probably going to turn up on our doorstep in a three or four years time. that's a place where the economy moves on even more ruthlessly than our own - they probably need all those guns!

Incidentally its perhaps worth pointing out to all these fans of the birch and cane. that it wasn't activities by the do gooders or the children, who led to its dishonourable exit - it was the fact that adults couldn't be trusted with the power; used it excessively, and there were little hitlers all over the shop - who simply had to be disarmed.

Your economy has started to move Ard. When it becomes a really well known place for immigrants to aim for - things will really get into gear. See how well your culture copes then. We may not be brilliant - but we try and take care of our citizens, give them health care, and educate them as best we can - however no getting away from it, its a cold corner to stand around on. Lots of nice things in the shops, but not everyone can afford them. And I'm not just talking about material things - theres a lot of folk in our society whose only chance of a cultural toehold outside the gutter is to be a Big Brother contestant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 06:03 PM

I blame Thatcher. Remember the days of 'Go and get what you want regardless of who you shit on to get it'? Well, the kids bought up with that are the parents of today. Kids do indeed get it from their parents.

Oh - and global warming is equaly to blame of course. And the habit of putting the blame on anything...

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 11:35 AM

"I blame Thatcher"

Too right. There's no such thing as society?

Well, I am inclined to think the damage done to the fabric of society by that cantankerous old harridan is partially responsible for the current state of the country's youth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: The Villan
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 12:12 PM

Well we eat at the table for breakfast and dinner in the evening.

If we go to the restaurant, they come with us.

We don't go to the pub, becuase of smoking and yobbish behaviour.

Rhiannon, I hear what you say, but at the end of the day tehses little p[lebs are ruining everybodies lives. We are sio stupid as a society and pamper to them, rather than doing something about them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 04:52 PM

Here we go again, let's just blame Thatcher, rather than think about the real reasons, sheesh talk about the bogeyman of the left.
How long has she been gone? How many kids have been born raised, and become feral and anti social since she went?
Come on guys get a life, that's like blaming Ground Elder in the UK on the Romans!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 04:58 PM

Sorry you didn't notice I also blamed global warming and the blame society, Giok. Guess irony doesn't realy work on the terminaly angry. Or is it the language difference?

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 05:08 PM

Whit dae ye mean langwidge difference ma wee china?
G ¦¬]


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 05:54 PM

The thing is that society was at breaking point when she got into office. They blamed it on the unions at the time - but really it was because big industries like British Leyland and british Coal and British Steel were run by idiots. the workers put the sweat in - it wasn't their fault.

The policies she implemented so carelessly of the society that was there, gave us ills that cannot be cured easily.

Homeless beggars on the streets, hard drugs and the organised crime syndicates that sell them, the cynical looting of public services by various means, artificially high levels of unemployment - these were phenomena largely unknown before 1979 and a direct result of the policies she pursued.

You still get Thatcher supporters telling you she was and is the greatest living Englishman.

I suppose the reason that we have yobs on the street in England is that we have a strata of society , a large strata at that - who really don't care about any of this. And its reflected in every screw you attitude amongst the rich and successful.

I think, at one time, there was at least a tradition of public service. But can you imagine Blair, Thatcher, Kinnock wanting any of their middle class kids in the services fighting those oh so worthwhile wars.

Kids pick up on that sort of thing. They know whats been selected for them, and its not the good stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 06:58 PM

Today on the London Tube, on a short journey, two young men got up and offered their seats to older passengers.

Of course they weren't English. Immigration could save us yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 07:10 AM

Giok, we should talk more. George Formby meets Rab C Nesbitt?

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 07:29 AM

He he he, turned out nice again Dave!
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 09:04 AM

Och! Awa' an bile ye heid. That's ma line!

:D 9TG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 03:22 PM

On second thoughts, given mature consideration - and the benefit of any possible doubt - England is something of a shit hole.

I think its that rotten folk music that stirs up all the trouble. You'd be maladjusted and anti social if you lived in a country where they have such crap folksongs. I have noticed the outbreaks of violent behaviour and drug taking are always worse after so-called singarounds.

People coming into contact with this odious row have been known to snarl and drink to excess, and sometimes they are sick on the pavement.

In many places folksinging and the rowdy behaviour, which attends it have taken over in popularity the traditional English past times of seeing who can fart the loudest and who has the longest willy.

The outlook is bleak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 03:24 PM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 03:26 PM

DAMN! I knew we had it wrong. The competition at last weeks singaround was who could fart longest and who had the loudest willy. Funny thing is Charlene from the bar won both...

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 02:41 PM

Hi there shit kickers, its Top....Of the Yobs!

A new number one this week, its that lovely Irish lad Ian Paisley with his tape loop of You Can't Sit Down (with terrorists).

At Number Two (and bubbling under) its John Prescot with the track from Cabaret "Two Ladies"( and two jags)

An Old fave at Number three its Norm Tebbit, after his hit appearance on the late show "I can't let Maggie Go" . and why would you.

New kid on the block Dave Cameron is making it all happen at number 4 with If You Want My Body and You Think I'm Sexy - vote for me, you look stupid enough.

And Number Five (MAN Alive!) its Tony Blair with I hear you knockin' (Gordon, but fuck off!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 03:43 AM

I think we need to look at the survey first. I wasn't asked - nor were any of my colleagues, friends, relatives, my wife's colleagues etc, nor anyone any of those links know. Where did they ask the questions? Inner city areas or a mixture. Unfortunately, statistics can be made to say whatever the person wants them to say.
I'm not a pollyanna, but don't think outright condemnation is a way to improve things and labels never, ever, work.
By the way - I have a Man Utd tatoo and have never been in a fight or got arrested in my life.
Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 02:24 PM

What if there really are evil people out there - in all levels of society? What if no amount of love, education, social inclusiveness etc., etc. will make a blind bit of difference with such people? What do we do then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 05:05 PM

Well Jesus suggests we should turn the other cheek. Mind you, if you think you know better....


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 05:36 PM

I wouldn't presume to know better than Jesus. But then I suspect if one was to turn the other cheek to a Hitler or a Stalin or a Saddam (or some little asshole in the street, perhaps) one would probably end up dead - and that wouldn't do anybody any good, would it?

On the other hand I don't profess to be a Christian and I can't help questioning received wisdom ... which is so often plain wrong ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 01:16 PM

the yobs know they can get away with it,slapped wrists and menial sentence.We live in a stupid country


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: sapper82
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 03:07 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: stigweard - PM
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 11:35 AM

"I blame Thatcher"

Too right. There's no such thing as society?""

Here we go again! Has anyone actually read what Mrs. T said in her interview with Woman's Own on the 23rd of September, 1987?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 03:28 AM

No, that week the knitting pattern had my undivided attention. And there was a good recipe for a jam sponge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:24 AM

A few weeks ago the journalist, Robert Fisk, was the subject of 'Desert Island Discs' on Radio 4. The presenter (Kirsty Wark, I think ... possibly?) asked him about the time that he was attacked and injured by a group of refugees in Afghanistan. She asked him if he understood the motives of the refugees in attacking him and he replied that of course he did and that if he had been an Afghan whose relatives had been blown apart by Allied bombs he would have attacked the first Westerner he saw as well. She also asked him if he forgave the refugees for attacking him and he replied that of course he didn't because there was a war on.

I think that the only person who can give or withold forgiveness is the victim (and in the event of the death of the victim, the victim's relatives). If perpetrators of crimes knew that they were just as likely to offend against a vengeful victim as a forgiving one, they might think twice. People who preach 'foregiveness', in all cases, are: just parroting a line that sounds good, in theory, and makes them sound morally superior, have never been victims themselves or have absolutely no empathy with the real (as opposed to idealised) emotions of their fellow human beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 12:47 PM

I had the unfortunate experience of visiting a 82 year old man after he had been robbed of his few pounds, the evil scum who carried out the robbery also left this brave old man with an egg-sized lump on his face.
The three teenagers involved were apprehended shortly afterwards, when they were brought to court and sentenced not one of the sneering thugs expressed a word of remorse for the old man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 02:53 PM

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:31 PM

Just a question Ard, based on your first post should the title of the thread be 'Britain and Ireland tops the yobs league' ?
Perhaps a Joe Clone could change the title ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:49 PM

From the 1966 thread:-
1966 - after the 'cup' a certain family moved into my village and I became baby sitter to two lovely children and official dog walker to a black and white mongrel dog called Pickles. Dreadful day when some young hooligans strung him up on a fence and left him to die a few years later.

You see in England - we have our traditions to uphold, and our culture. but we don't sing about them. We sing about the battle of Waterloo, or the green fields of wherever - which is violence of a more picturesque and acceptable kind. We sing as we all dance away to jigs and reels.

And that's why our folk culture is up shit creek, the paddle misplaced, the currents not in our favour. A disocciated sensibility.

Can't believe Ireland is as bad as England. they seem a bit more together than us culturally - more sure of themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:48 AM

I also think it is right to turn the other cheek when assaulted... It is just that I think one should also turn one's hips at the same time, while trapping the assailants wrist and elbow...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:26 AM

Shields Folk no problem with a change of Thread, but it won`t cure the scum that follow the English soccer teams at least our supporters behave well when abroad, your soccer fans have left a legacy of hate over mainland Europe,I admit Ireland has it`s problems with young drunken scum, whether it has reached the same peak as Britain is another matter and living in the north-east your opinion on drunken yobs would be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 05:19 AM

I am in full agreement with you over the scum, Ard Mhacha. It seems however to have overflowed into our town centres as well so I am not fully convinced that football scum is the right term. Just scum would usualy more than suffice.

I work in view of Old Trafford - Just across the bridge in Salford Quays. The number of times I see hoardes of ignorant selfish young men creating fear and havoc in these parts is beyound belief. Sad thing is that it seems to be accepted behavior by some. "Oh, it's just high spirits" and "Football fans are very passionate about the game" is heard over and over. OK - These idiots are not vandalising. They are not fighting. They are not rioting. What they do though is take up the whole pavement and are completely oblivious, or uncaring, to the old man on a zimmer frame or the young mother with a pram who is forced to walk in the road. What they do is stop at the side of the nearest building and urinate, in full view of the policeman on his horse. What they do is barge into the local bars and by pure strength of numbers they push and intimidate the locals outside to make room for their loud and often foul mouthed chants of 'support'.

If you haven't gathered I am quite passionate about this. As I said earlier the trouble is it is no longer confined to the terraces and outside the grounds. Visit Manchester city centre any night after about 9pm - Particulary Friday and Saturday and you will see the same loutish behavior. The only difference is that they yobs are not wearing tribal colours but tribal designer outfits. And they are not just men, the women are equaly loutish.

The solution? Dunno. Off the top of my head. Zero tolerance? Curfew with serious tagging of offenders? Electric cattle prods? Hopefuly something will be done before long anyway.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:02 AM

Seeing is believing Dave, Shields Folk berates me for not including Ireland in the Thread heading, I did not conduct the survey, the British media gave this plenty of publicity and Ireland wasn`t included.

I am not hiding behind my nationality, I have seen our local scum taking over the streets every week-end, I had a visit a month ago from my two nephews both middle aged and from Sunderland, quite close to South Shields, they were both adamant that they wouldn`t go through Sunderland late at night on the week-end.

It seems we will have to live with this, Blair said he would ensure that the streets would be given back to the people, just like his WMDs lies, things have got worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 07:16 AM

Actually we had some yob trouble in our neighbourhood last christmas, and the cops were very responsive and helpful - there has been no recurrence.

I couldn't tell you whether things are getting better or worse - sure as hell is no fun to be at the receiving end of this sort of behaviour. Halloween passed this year without incident.

You know, I'm not at all sure it is the feral broods of lumpenproletariat at the bottom of this business. Some of the young buggers that gave us trouble, look quite well to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 12:48 PM

All you UK catters loOk in on Sunday night BBC1 when Panorama investigates the English youngsters binge drinking problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 01:29 PM

Must be good stuff this Binge. Anybody know where I can get a bottle or six?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 01:30 PM

BTW - I noticed on the box today a report about soccer yobbery and racist violence in other European countries - Germany being one of them. Why no thread about German Football Hooligans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:24 PM

Sunday night, no chance! we're all off on the piss..... Big folk music party somewhere in the environs of Monsall Head. everybody will be there. Theakston's Old Peculiar mixed with Pinot Grigio being the unthinking man's brain damage local tincture.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 04:19 AM

You swine Al - you know alcohol's off the menu for me!! ROFL!

Anyway, I ask again - why haven't any of our English-Haters started a thread about German thuggery and racism? Double-standards methinks (wouldn't you just know it!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: autolycus
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 05:08 AM

UK population grew 1951 - 2001 from 50.3 million to 59.1 million.

   So it did not double in that period. (Just type 'uk population 1951' into google).






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 07:05 AM

Is that Monsall Head, Derbyshire, Al? At the pub of the same name? If so how much folky stuff is on there coz I have access to a cottage just down the road:-)

Cheers

DtG

BTW - I don't think anyone will start a thread about German Hooligans SJ because it would not provoke a reaction amongst so many people. Not double standards, just standard journalistic practice. Same reason that no-one starts threads about Moslem peace workers or Christian extemists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 09:29 AM

I was in Berlin two weeks ago and never encountered any drunken yobs for the whole of the weekend, picture the same scene in any of our towns on any weekend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Alice
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 10:16 AM

I agree with kendall and his daughter. I grew up in a family where we respected our parents so much that just disappointing them with our behavior was painful enough punishment. I learned as a parent myself that when kids get hit, they think it is ok for them to hit people, too. Violence breeds violence, and there are more effective ways to teach appropriate behavior. Rewarding appropriate behavior is key. Starting when kids are toddlers is important, which means parents need to have those skills in the home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Alice
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

There are two popular American reality shows about parenting kids. Both bring British nannies in to American homes where the kids are out of control. "Nanny 911" and "Super Nanny". It all comes down to TRAINING THE PARENTS in parenting techniques that teach kids appropriate behavior. Parents have to be taught how to parent effectively if they haven't figured it out from their own experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 10:52 AM

Call me a fascist but...... It is about time we topped the yobs


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 01:54 PM

Fair enough: "Fascist."


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Alice
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:01 PM

Here's a question, what's a Yob? Juvenile delinquent?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:32 PM

A backward boy, Alice! A play on spelling and meaning, which in the UK is a colloquialism for a hooligan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:34 PM

Backslang for Boy. Means an unpleasant sort of boy or young man. Most of us have been like that from time to time, some people seem to be like that most of the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 06:22 PM

I must say, adding to Ard Mhacha's comments, I was in Stuttgart some years ago and experienced quite an interesting thing. There were dozens of young men staggering around the town, blind drunk. Appararantly they were the latest release from conscription in the army. They were all wearing tattered white shirts with writing all over them - messages from friends apparartly, and were all chanting and singing very loudly in the bars and squares of the town.

Funny thing was that every time they encountered anyone else at close quarters they became very calm and polite. I saw then kissing the hands of old ladies and buying beers for elderly men in the bars. When I came across a group of about 20 wandering in the opposite direction from me in the main square they all parted and let me through with a smile and a wave. I asked a couple that came and sat with me in the next bar I was in what it was all about and they said it was a regular event that they looked forward to.

Far cry from the idiots that stalk my home town. The local council try to contol them by banning pavement drinking and stopping glass vessels in bars. Wonder why the bars in Stuttgart are OK with outside tables and proper glasses but those in Manchester are not?

Beyond me but, even though I am generaly proud to be English, I will certainly not become an appologist or excuse maker for the behaviour of English yobs.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 08:24 AM

Unlike some others on this Thread Dave, you are not burying your head in the sand regarding the young scum that take over our towns at the weekend.
I have last nights Panaroma programme on tape and will look at it later, it will be interesting to see if they have a solution for the drink problem with our yobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 10:50 AM

"Our yobs" when you're talking about "Britain", ard macha?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 12:01 PM

Ard, the PC namby-pambies won't allow what the little bastards really need - a bloody good dose of the birch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 01:09 PM

I have just seen the Panorama programme, the feeling I got after viewing this horror film was one of absolute hopelessness, you had to feel sorry for the parents from the Bristol area, who had tried everything to control their two daughters, this was made impossible by the company they kept,and the same dilemma applied to the other towns featured.

Children as young as 11 years old were treated for excess drinking in hospitals throughout the land, liver disease at one time a disease associated with adults is now common with people in their early twenties.

This programme made very depressing viewing especially the shots of the young people in the various towns staggering around and being sick on the pavements, anyone got any ideas as to how this can be curbed?, as the programme makers never came up with any solutions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 01:15 PM

Sorry McGrath to disillusion you but the problem is not confined to the UK alone, Ireland has the problem also.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 01:23 PM

Anyone wishing to view this Panorama programme go to BBC and type in Panorama in Search.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 01:45 PM

I know it is, ard Macha, and it's a crying shame. But "Britain" is a separate island from Ireland, even the bit that is still in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:14 PM

If hair splitting was a cure for the disease our worries at both sides of the dub would be over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:14 PM

The young lady reporter seemed to be terrified, the towns looked like a film set of Sodom and Gomorrah, amazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:42 PM

Having seen many late nights in Europe recently I only wish the Irish youth mob culture could learn a bit from the Europeans. I can't speak about other parts of Britain, but I can speak for my own home town. Some of our youth are lawless and know the police simply can't be bothered. If they pull a couple of them in they are faced with a mound of paperwork, phoning social workers, solicitors and on call doctors. These thugs know the system inside out and know their rights and call all on all available services simply to mess them about.

I have spoken to French, German, Italian and Spanish landlords is various cities recently and none face what I see weekly in my hometown.

The faults are with the law, youth today can milk them, laugh at them and flaunt them. We won't reverse it now I am sorry to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:02 PM

Two of Mudcats most prominent Irish Republicans suggesting/accepting that Ireland is part of Britain.

The World turned upside down!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:13 PM

Ah come on Shields, I'm a new man since July 2005. Hope your well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:15 PM

Do you know I had noticed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:22 PM

Thanks, still a lot of places free in the Divis fan club though !


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:50 PM

Shields have another look at this Thread and while you are at it have a look at the scum that frequent your town at weekends, are you another one-eyed limey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:56 PM

I understand the point you made, there are a load of scum on our streets. I just thought that you were unfair labelling the thread "Britain".

That was until I realised that you included Ireland under the British umberella.

(..and to be truthful I'm a four eyed limey)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:03 PM

Again Shields I did not make the survey as you can see from my header, it did include all of Europe, maybe not tops at sports but this is better than nowt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM

"In case some worthy Brit accuses me of bias I can tell them that the condemnation in that report also applies to Ireland, all 32 counties."

"...Shields Folk berates me for not including Ireland in the Thread heading, I did not conduct the survey, the British media gave this plenty of publicity and Ireland wasn`t included."


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 06:20 PM

David Cameron is right. All they need is love, but its important that its the right kind of love.

If we gave them all free access to an adult channel, they would all be too tired to cause trouble. And what fun they'd have!

Anal sex could also be an imaginative solution to these restless young folk. If they were all walking round zonked out of their head on heavy medication with a vibrator up their arses, I feel we might be a significant part of the way, to a solution.

It would mean their probation officers and social workers multi-tasking. They could change the batteries, whenever they checked their security tags.

Just like it says on the Jeremy Kyle Show, we've got to be there for them, with tough love....cos after all these young folk are our future.

Well not our future, cos we'll be dead by then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 04:05 AM

There is a saying in the north-east when someone is an irritant, "go to Shields", but nowadays avoid the weekend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:54 AM

The Blair government has just announced a new £4 million scheme called"Super Nannies" will be launched in 77 areas of England which have high levels of anti social behaviour.
A Mori poll result 85% gives parents as the main cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 07:06 AM

I do not.
There have always been inadequate parents.
Their kids will always have misbehaved at home.
Now the kids misbehave at school and in the street as well.
People do not change. We must look elsewhere for the cause.

Schools used to do a good job of instilling a respect for authority at an early and formative stage, whatever the home situation.
Now they just try to be nice and friendly, then hope the parents can help when the kids go wrong.
Usually they can't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:20 AM

Don't blame the schools - and I'm not saying you necessarily are - if they're like the schools in Canada, and I'm assuming to some extent they are, they've had much of their authority taken out of their hands. I don't go in for the ol' "let's beat them into submission" approach that seems popular on this thread, but it is helpful if young people feel that those in positions of authority actually have some sort of power.

And while many blame the situation in the schools on policies imposed by the state, parents in general DO NOT want their children to be subjected to any sort of discipline in school. Yes, they want eveyone else's children to be subjected to discipline but they want their own little angels to be free to behave in whatever manner they like. As a teacher, I have seen intelligent, well-educated, rational, socially-responsible citizens turn into raving, slobbering idiots when confronted with the vicious accusation that their teen-aged infants have done something inappropriate. Often the same people you hear longing for the days when you would be afraid to go home and tell your parents if you got into trouble at school ...

As a teacher, every time you consider disciplinary action, you have to weigh the possibility that you will be commencing a ten-year war of attrition with vengeful parents and perhaps an extended family as well.

(Yes, a little frustration coming out here ... )


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:02 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:07 AM

100!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:14 AM

Memyself, I agree with your viewpoint, I have friends in the teaching profession and many have gladly accepted early retirement, all you relate concerning parents would be backed up by my teacher friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

I have seen it in action - Yob parents protecting yob kids. I am not a teacher and would hate to be in their position when they have to explain that it is wrong for dear little Wayne/Waynetta to kick their classmates in the head because they were wearing better trainers.

It is going to take many years to sort out the culture that has brought this about. Not sure if I fully agree with the super-nannies but it could be a step in the right direction provided that these parents accept that they DO bear some responsibility.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 12:07 PM

Free alcohol to all between the ages of 14 and 20. This will remove most of the dimwits and yobs within two years with liver disease. Only the brighter ones would avoid it and so we manage to cull the "not rights" and promote the smarter ones.

Sorted!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 01:18 PM

..and ard mhacha is gaelic for shit stirrer


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:19 PM

I second Spot's suggestion with one addition. As well as free alcohol we should include free skydiving lessons. Only to be taken at 2am on a night after the free beer.

Now, lads, please take your choice of parachute. Or rucksack...

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:21 PM

Shields Folk I am sorry you feel this way,but I had nothing to do with this report,the report was by the IPP research group and if you care to look through the replies to the Thread you will find that the overwhelming majority agrees with the research groups findings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:45 PM

I doubt if a situation where most parents are working all God's hours really helps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: autolycus
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:18 PM

I'm doubtful how many parents will take THEIR responsibility, either because they think that is the same as taking ALL the responsibility

or

because they equate taking any responsibility with being blamed, the last thing most people want to know about.






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:58 PM

The only generalisation about "most parents" that convinces me is the one that says most parents are, on the whole, good parents, and most kids are good kids, on the whole.

There are too many exceptions to that, but they are exceptions.

One problem is when parents and teachers imagine that they are the main influence on their kids, past a certain pretty young age. They aren't, other kids are. The important thing is to be around to help pick up the pieces and stick them together again. Not "quality time" when it suits us, availability time, when we are needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 07:30 PM

I have to say that the IPP report didn't tell us anything we didn't already know. Again I repeat I can only speak of what I see at first hand on the streets of my home town. I understand while I am rambling through Europe that a television programme focused on a town or area in England and looked at the problems they faced. I doubt anywhere in England, Scotland, Wales or Ireland is any different. I haven't seen any of it in Europe and I have seen many late nights recently ! Can any of our American or Canadian friends let us know what it's like on their patch on weekend nights ?

I was no angel in my youth, and had great parents that brought six children into the world (five of them never gave them a moments trouble)we just didn't do those things in those days, I wish I had the answers and solutions to the problems we face today.

I treated those that did, (sent to us for psychological fine tuning) never once did I get an answer that made any sense to me as to their actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:37 PM

My impression in Canada is that you don't see an awful lot of that yob type of thing going on, compared to what seems to be the case in Britain, judging from what I've seen on the box and from the frustration being expressed on this thread. I've been in and out of the city of Edmonton (northern Alberta) for the past twenty years, and for the last five years or so there have been problems occasionally on one three or four block strip of a street called Whyte Avenue, and acts of youth violence increasing in number and severity all over the city. There are several factors that I and many other people see as contributing to the increasing violence in Edmonton: traditional redneck/cowboy culture, disproportionate numbers of people aged 18-25 or so (come looking for work), groups of immigrant kids competing for turf, a lucrative drug trade, gangsta-rap culture, and a broader Albertan culture that seems lacking in any sorts of values other than "work hard, make as much money as you can & spend as much money as you can". Having said that, though, the trouble-makers are really the exception to the rule; most of the kids out getting soused on a Saturday night in Edmonton are just out for a good time, and in fact most of them tend to be quite personable after a half-dozen beers, if a little loud. And I think the same holds true for most Canadian communities.

My impression is that the whole business of the class system has created and feeds a great deal of animosity and alienation in Britain, and this gets expressed in yobbery ...

And here's a little anecdote that may interest you, being from Northern(?) Ireland (Divis, that is). In the late-seventies, I had a friend who had immigrated from Belfast. We were out for a Sunday drive one time, and stopped in a small town in rural Ontario. I noticed at one point that he seemed quite taken with a public flower garden/display in the center of town, which I had hardly noticed. He turned to me and said, "In Ireland you'd never see something like this in the small towns. The local kids would have it torn up the first weekend." Make of that what you will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:20 AM

When I was in Berlin I noticed that the large shops along Kurfurstendamm, that citys elite shopping centre, that the main items were displayed in a glass case mounted on a stand some 30 feet distant from the main shop.
My friends and I remarked that in our town the display arrangement would not have lasted overnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:08 AM

GUEST,memyself and ard mhacha what you both said here is exactly right. I have a sister living in Canada and she remarked on the flower beds too ! One of the largest flower beds in my home town is directly facing the police station and attacks on it by yobs got so bad that the local council stopped planting it out.(No surprise, when you consider the local police only come out to go to the bakery). You are right ard, here in Spain the local cafes leave their tables and chairs out overnight ! I can just imagine that at home !

In Torrevieja Spain, the police are very visual, as are the local civic guard. These guys with two foot batons on their belts walk their beat from morning to night. There was an incident last week in a large out of town supermarket. I have no idea what happened. All I saw was one of the stores security guards grab a bloke who ran out of the store, he pulled him back in and handcuffed him and kept him face down, his baton on the ready as he used his radio. I can hear the outcry now, if that happened at home !


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:31 AM

Funny thing is with parks, flowerbeds etc. is that Mrs G and I often make the same comments. Not that they are any better in Europe but that they are distincly better in small town Britain. Visit Whitby or Barnard Castle or anywhere in the Yorkshire Dales. Go to the lakes, visit the small towns of Cheshire, Herefordshire or Somerset. They are a far cry from inner city Manchester, Newcastle or any other major city. Big difference in Europe is that even the cities are better.

Don't know if it is significant but it does make me realise that the UK is not completely lost to the yobs. Far from it. And like someone said earlier it is definitely the case that vast majority of parents and kids are honest, hard-working, law-abiding citizens. Lets just hope that the majority win out in the end.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:25 PM

Mrs. Johnny and I were in Canada last year and were amazed at how polite and well-behaved Canadian teenagers were. No f**king and blinding, no rubbish strewn around, no misbehaviour - just politeness and consideration. My bro-in-law is a cop in Canada (ex-Cambridgeshire Constabulary) and he agrees that the general standard of behaviour amongst young Canadians is light years ahead of the UK.

Having said all that, the general standard of behaviour amongst adult Canadians was light years ahead of Brits too - shop-workers who smiled, greeted us and wished us a nice day instead of just grunting and holding out their hands for the money, strangers on city streets who were only too pleased to give assistance and directions to us lost tourists instead of punching our lights out and pinching our mobile phones. I could go on.....

Maybe the difference between their young people and ours is in the different standards their adults set and conform to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:01 PM

"Maybe the difference between their young people and ours is in the different standards their adults set and conform to?"

You might want to ask yourself - never having been to the UK, I don't have an opinion on this; just a suggestion - what are the interactions of these kids with the adult world like when the kids are not in yob mode, when they're going about their rightful business in the course of a day? In general, are they being granted a modicum of respect by the adults they encounter or are they more likely to face contempt or antipathy? Personally, I've come to be a great believer in the elevating power of respect ... especially for those who've never gotten much of it.

Flattered to hear the favorable observations of Canada. In case anyone's wondering, we do have our fair share of violent criminals and assorted hard cases, but it sounds like casual social interactions are a little more civil here than in some places. For instance, re: "pleased to give assistance and directions to us lost tourists", my brother told me that when in Edinburgh a few years back, he got a hard time from a group of young toughs when he asked them something about how to use a payphone - in Canada, you figure that a thug may cut your throat in the line of business, but that doesn't mean under normal circumstances he won't be happy to give you directions or to help push your car out of a snowbank ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:04 PM

So at the end of it all, Britain will top the yob league for a long time to come, wouldn`t it be great, even miraculous, if the nannies start showing results in the near future, here`s hoping.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:41 PM

One thing that might help a little would be if pubs were severely penalised for selling to people who have had too much to drink. When they do that they are breaking the law, but most times nothing happens to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 11:27 PM

I was a Canadian yob in a different lifetime. Once, a girl from Italy came to visit, so I brought her to the beer hall, so she could see how the locals live. These were places with beer, long lines of tables, benches or chairs, beer, and nothing else. (They don't seem to have them in the city anymore, maybe in the country.) When a fight broke out at the table next to us, I said "See, we have to provide our own entertainment." She said: "That's because you are English. That is how they behave." This was thirty years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:42 AM

oh well we can't all be perfect....


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:56 AM

GUEST, heric - Whereabouts in Canada were you living? I've never before heard the term "beer hall" used in a Canadian context, although I'm more familiar than I should be with the type of establishment to which you refer. They don't seem to exist in that form any more, which is too bad really; they were far more sociable than the modern set-up.

Anyway, you're talking about barroom brawling, which has a long and honourable tradition in Canada, along with, in some places, street-fighting. I think this yob thing in Britain involves much more than respectable if impromptu bouts of fisticuffs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 09:36 AM

I don't think beer hall is the correct term either, mem, but I can't for the life of me remember what we called it. I'm thinking primarily of the Avalon in North Vancouver, but there used to be a lot of them. I remember it seemed a big deal when they tried to upgrade it with real wooden chairs instead of benches. But you're right, intimidation of the elders or innocents was not in the picture (then). I have heard of two "swarming" incidents, as described by Den, by the current crop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:05 AM

That girl's comment was my first eye-opening incident in eventually understanding that Italy has a superior culture to our Anglicized nations. Another was walking around in Verona with a local. She would stop and have one to three minute conversational exchanges with total strangers of any age or gender, then proceed on her way. They would talk with each other as if they were neighbors from the same street. I don't know about "the Continent," but Italy is just plain better. Have to accept it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:53 PM

I've just ordered a guitar from Italy - I have to wait til wednesday before they'll post it. We're better at some things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:46 PM

Sorry to be the bearer of more bad news, on tonights BBC news Britain was castigated again, consuming more Cocaine than any country in Europe, it is of great concern as teenagers are using the drug on a regular scale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:06 PM

ard mhacha, your just loving this aren't you, well despite it's many faults I think Britain is a bloody decent place to live. Now we all know that everyone in the world would love to be Irish but some of us will just have to survive in this the mother of all democracies.
Now I know I have had a drink (Newcastle have just beat Celta Vigo in the UEFA Cup) and I will regret this in the morning, but why dont you just FUCK OFF!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:21 PM

Oh my, my, my ... Really, Mr Folk, I think if you review the thread, you'll find there have been a number of posts from our Irish friends themselves in which they decry the yob situation in Ireland. You sound as if you perhaps had a drink and are saying something you will regret in the morning ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:32 PM

Just reviewed the thread and there has been posts from ONE other poster from Ireland decrying the yob situation.

HE didn't start the thread with Britain prominent in the title whilst in his opening post acknowledging that the problem was just as prevalent in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:34 PM

Oh,and by the way "you yourself" what are you hiding by posting as a Guest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:14 PM

There are a number of posts in which Irishmen allude to less than ideal situations in their neck of the woods - if you scroll up a short ways, you'll find the last message from Divis Sweeney talks about the local kids tearing up the public flowerbeds in his community.

As for what I'm hiding - um, why do I have to be hiding something? Okay, I'm hiding my name. Because I don't want to have to defend my name in squabbles with drunks. Now, what are you hiding behind the handle "Shields Folk"?

I don't really want an answer; I'm not interested in fighting with you. I've got nothing against the English; I've got nothing against the Irish, and I find it sad that there is so much ill-feeling between the two of youse. I'll go away and have a drink too, then maybe I'll be in fighting mood when I come back. Don't wait up, though. Or, better yet, if I'm not back in five minutes, start the fight without me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Den
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 09:39 PM

Easy there Shields Folk, do you consider yourself British or English?Think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:10 AM

The same person who gave England the hard drugs industry (Thatcher - prior to that, everybody was too busy paying mortgages) was at the helm through period of the hunger strikes.

Her party is gaining ground again.

Never lose sight of the enemy.

The working people of England and Ireland have a common enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:45 AM

http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/c/cheeky.html

this is because of people that beleive in political correctness, or do-gooders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:46 AM

http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/c/cheeky


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:08 AM

So ShieldsFolk `i`m loving it, no you are way out here, only someone with a twisted mind would say that.
Get your head of of the sand and look around your town and being honest come back and tell me I am wrong, your country is going downhill rapidly.
Try and do something about it, if it comes to that give the"nannies" a hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:21 AM

I think it comes down to kettles and pans, Ard. I agree with you entirely but what may be rubbing some people up the wrong way is the 'YOUR country bit. I know you have already agreed that it is the same over there, in some ways I believe it to be worse (See Divis's thread on race crime). But it may give the impression that you have raised the point to show how much better Ireland is. I don't think you have and I know that things in the North of your isle are indeed no better than on this one.

Shields Folk - It is bad over here. There is no doubt. It is bad in Northern Ireland as well. It is undoubtably better in other countries. I think if everyone takes a step back we will see we are in agreement and instead of arguing we all need to do something about it!



Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:31 AM

That is the nub of it Dave the gnome. There are a few anti-English members who never cease to try and have a sly dig at us whilst pretending the opposite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:52 AM

Ted keep your nose out of it, sound advice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:00 PM

Bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:39 PM

No Ted leave them for your boy friends, the white stuff on the table, geddit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:02 PM

Ted, can't help but feel that I am in those words of yours there somewhere. Please read my posts and you will see me comments are about yobs in IRELAND, not England, I expressed what I seen in my hometown, which happens to be in Ireland. And I don't make half assed remarks to have a sly dig at anyone, as most know, it's all or nothing from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:19 PM

ard mhacha - I had assumed that you had started this thread in good faith, but your last message (to Shields Folk) ("your country is going downhill rapidly") leads me to wonder if my ol' buddy Shields Folk isn't right after all, that maybe you did start this just to needle the English. I hope I'm wrong, 'cause if I have to apologize to Mr Folk, well, it won't be good for my self-esteem, let's put it that way ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:30 PM

I don't think Ted's remarks were addressed to you DS.

Ard gets very touchy about any remarks made about his country - that he feels to be unfounded.

We don't feel we are the decadent nation that his posts suggest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:33 PM

Dear o dear memyself taken in by a sorry for himself, for heavens sake read my posts, this is a serious matter not to be confused with some union flag waver.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:11 PM

I think seeing it terms of nations is missing the nub of it. To a considerable extent it's a matter of the broken down parts of the big cities.

Not exclusively, because there are related things that happen in the small towns as well, largely because there's a kind of copy-cat process going on. And it can be very nasty. But it's a matter of a certain type of young people out in the sticks copying what they know happens in the cities, rather than the other way round.

But mostly out of the cities it's still quiet enough. You can go through your whole life without seeing any serious trouble.

Ireland, outside Dublin and Belfast is country of small towns. England has a pretty fair spread of cities. That makes a difference when it comes to national generalisations.

I think it is possible to make not wholly misleading generalisations about national differences between the various countries on the mainland of Europe and on the offshore islands. So perhaps it's true to say that the English do tend to be - well, according to taste you can call it more reserved, or less friendly, or a bit stand-offish, or less intrusive than some of their neighbours. "They're good neighbours - you'd never know they were there" is a common way to talk here, and it wouldn't be in a lot of places.

But I doubt if that has much relationship to the kind of street yobbery we've been talking about here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:59 PM

If any care to read Ard mhachas posts on this thread I think you will find he remarks on yobs in Ireland too. What part do people not accept or wish to accept. Fucking sick of Irish mudcatters getting rapped on this site as anti English if they care to speak or remark. Ard we should let them keep their ball and fine a site where members are less touchy.
Fucked off big time at this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:26 PM

We had good discussion going for awhile there, but it's gotten too foolish for me. Have a good time, boys, I'm outta here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:27 PM

Don't get too peed off Divis - If you look back I think you will find that a very small percentage of the contributions are rapping anyone for being anti-English. In the main people agree with Ard and anyone wanting clarification about the situation in Ireland is, I guess, just wanting re-assurance that we are not on our own!

It isn't pleasant to think that some young people in my country are so badly behaved. I accept that they are and I think no-one else would argue against the facts and observations here. I think people just want re-assurance that it does happen elsewhere. We know it does. We are down to now is degrees of severity.

If the only thing that the Irish and English can fight about now is 'Our yobs are better/worse than your yobs', then we have ceratinly moved very far forward in the last 40 years:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:51 PM

Dave, I posted several times to this thread and if the others care to read them they will find that ALL MY POSTS hit hard on the local scum around my hometown in Ireland, I never once remarked on English towns only to say I heard there was a television programme on about it that I didn't see. I noted that ard remarked several times on local yobs in his area of Ireland.

In plain words, if I appear on any thread in which the word British or English is in the title, it turns into open season with remarks spoken out of the side of their mouths about me or any Irish member.

Honestly Dave the example above should be enough to see this. As far as I can see only two Irish mudcatters came on this thread and both hit hard at what we see in Ireland, and still it's seen as an attack on Britain/England.

I worked for several years treating drug addiction, there is a thread about it which I would have loved to post on, but can't. Why ? because the word Britain is used in the title.

Yes I have fought my corner concerning Irish issues on this site, but the above contains me explaining that not only the U.K. suffer, Ireland does too. Seems I am to be excluded from social issues as well now.

Hope all well with you and the bride.
Take care

Divis


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:07 PM

Divis, I agree your posts have reflected your views on your own local problem. I even agree with the majority of what ard has said, but I think he is using the title of the thread to colour other Mudcaters view on Blighty.

Well if a Joe Clone was to change the thread title to "Britain and Ireland tops the yobs league" I'd be happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:10 PM

We're both fine, Divis - Well, she's fast asleep on the sofa but that's nowt new:-)

Fair enough - I must say I didn't read as you did but if we were all the same life would be very boring wouldn't it? I can well understand your annoyance. I guess the thread must have hit some raw nerves somewhere to provoke the reactions it did. Didn't with me in any way and I can just accept that we do have a problem without trying to justify it. Get me going on...

Oh no, hang on, I'm not saying or somewill soon will!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:13 PM

I started this Thread for one reason only and we get some flag waving Brits trying to turn the Thread around to suit their own selfish ends.
I waited before I started this Thread to see if someone from Britain would take up the baton, unfortunately this didn`t happen.
This Thread is important not only to Britain but also to Ireland, the European body whose report I quoted did not include Ireland in its survey, I did so and the stupid reaction from Shields Folk would be worth reading again, the point is this, Britain is in a serious situation regarding its youngsters and those that ignore this are foolish in the extreme.
I hope I make myself clear put away your loyalty to you motherland and look around you and tell me I am wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM

read what I have just wrote muppet I am agreeing with you.
You spend your time waving the flag for Ireland, but thats all tickety bo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:22 PM

You are a sick man, Shields Folk, waving the flag for Ireland?, no pointing out facts to a one-eyed bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:26 PM

I take issue with one point you clandestinely try to make ard and I am a sick man and a one eyed.

You've been found out bonny lad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:30 PM

Seachnaíonn súil ní nach bhfeiceann.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:36 PM

well even if we are drowning in a sea of drug addiction and drunkeness - what exactly are a load of middleaged/old folk music fans supposed to do about it?

newspapers just talk a load of shite anyway. Nottingham (down the road from where I live) is supposed to the gun crime capital of England. I don't know a single person who owns a gun.

For years I worked in the inner city schools as a supply teacher and gigged the roughest bars, and at no time did I ever see a dispute settled with a gun.

yes there is a drug problem, but you'd have to go looking for it to see it. Yes the behaviour of young kids pissed out of their heads on a weekend does make the city centre a damn good place to stay out of.

but its only important if you can do something about it. all one can do is behave yourself, and try not to be sick on the next bloke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:42 PM

Thanks for that Mick but I think it is his choice not to see


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:48 PM

Ní rabhas ag labhairt leis-san, do bhíos ag labhairt leatsa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:53 PM

You were on half the night working that out!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:49 PM

You know. it strikes me reading this there's a ceertain amount ogf yobbery cropping up in soem of the posts in this thread. I suppose its not surprising.

At least you can't get glassed on the net. Mind, there's probably someone workimg on a technical advance that will make that possible...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:51 AM

I thought it was Britain (scotland, wales and Northern Ireland) that topped the yobs league not just England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:06 AM

I think that was the point that some people are missing, Tom. It has been stated quite categoricaly by our Irish friends that this is the case. In fact Ard Mhacha went one step further to say that the problem was in all 32 counties of Ireland, not just the North. I think a couple of people have taken 'Britain' to mean England.

A long time ago now, due to sensible discussion and a certain amount of enlightenment here, I decided that Britain and British were becoming very negative terms. Too empirical and far too out-dated. Did you know tha the first British colony was England? What the hell is British anyway? No-one could ever come up with an explanation that suited all so it's about time we did away with it. Scotland and Wales now have their own administrations. What is wrong with just saying we are English? People from Scotland, Wales and most of Ireland dropped the British tag years ago. About time we did the same.

Now, if someone was to say England or even, heaven forbid, Lancashire, was the worst place in the world then there would be trouble:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:12 AM

I think it was the Provisional IRA that is responsible here. See all the old training camps in those small self catering holiday villas in Mayo, Wicklow and Donegal are lying empty. Bet they sent them over sober, load with with Guinness, Harp and Bushmills (All Irish produced) Taught them their own social skills, then let them loose on the streets of Ireland.

Once they have wrecked the odd phone box, pulled up a couple of dozen tulips, brought up the contents of their stomach over a bank auto till (including carrots). Them that's them ready for export. Right you little bastards, you have 24 hours to get out of Ireland, otherwise you'll be walking with a limp. Boat fulls of these yobs arrive in England. Job done.

I really didn't believe Michael Stone would accept our dare yesterday at Stormount. Yes the Provo's were at it again. Supplied him with a 9 mm Beretta M9 automatic pistol, a bag full of home made nitrocellulose cordite tin bins complete with blaster caps and no doubt you know the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:19 AM

I thought this was about Britain, and not England, however yer right. the Scots, Welsh and the Northern Irish have got rid of the tag Britian long ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:21 AM

I just nearly ruined my laptop with coffee, Divis, yer bugger:-)

You could be onto something though. I don't think it's the provos though. Could be the government. They have just announced they want to replace the Trident programme. Imagine what an effect hoardes of youbs would have in the field of defence? OK, Korea, stop that testing or your streets will run with leftover MacTuckey bits. Iran? No chance against spewing Tommy and his mates. It would scare the hell out of me anyway:-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:38 AM

I thought the word British comes from Brythons who invaded and then went to Wales. Blame it on the Welsh.

the mIchael stone thing is strange - almost beyond belief. A modern day Guy Fawkes. Just needs the hat with a feather in it. Surely, Broadmoor this time....?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:59 AM

Dave, you will be getting black balled on this site, the company you are keeping !

Al I agree it was a strange thing for Mick Stone to do. Last two years he has went and met all the families of those he killed, sold his artwork at an exhibition and gave most of it to charity. He has received government money to teach the youth in the East Belfast area the wrongs of terrorism and become a saved follower of Christ.

Pity he hadn't of got in, I am sick of the game playing among all of them. As young couples try to get a start in life these elected guys play with their lives and deny them all the benefits they could enjoy from a deal.

Peter Hain if a man at all, should post out letters on Monday afternoon, saying "Hello guys, sorry but the £134,000 pay cheque for you and your secretaries and researchers took a nose dive. It's here and waiting on you when you all grow up".


Mick Stone has a serious drugs problem, I think that's what fueled it.

Now please understand, these were Irish drugs he was using, made in Ireland, sold to the Irish, never saw the light of day in England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:03 AM

Now, if someone was to say England or even, heaven forbid, Lancashire, was the worst place in the world then there would be trouble:-)

What about if it was Yorkshire?

......................
Looking at those pictures in the press, are we quite sure it was Michael Stone and not Billy Connolly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:28 AM

Visited both and thought they were lovely.

The doors at stormount have been sticking lately, they resolved the problem yesterday, there was a large Stone stuck in them !


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:50 AM

I have not missed any of "the points" above.
I am not reading Britain as England.
I have not buried my head in the sand.
What I am doing is accusing the original poster of choosing the subject and the title of the post to be inflammatory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:13 AM

More yobbery, I see...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:33 AM

Poor oul Shields there is no getting through to him, "the bonny lad is young but he`s growing", sad his brain didn`t comply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:57 AM

I suppose the sack of explosives and the gun are just things he had hanging round the house from before he got saved. In the attic with the Ludo set from when he was a kid.

Stormount looked beautiful, all floodlit on the telly. fabulous looking building.

Shields, we've been inflamed, shocked beyond measure that Ard could express disparaging thoughts about dear old Blighty - now we're onto somethin else......


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:14 AM

...start another thread then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:38 AM

The only people it may be inflammatory to is the British and as I said - Who are they? As far as I know they don't exist. Dunno where this survey got the idea from. The only people that I know who call themselves British are the ones who want to hold on to the old imperial standard. And I guess they will always top the yobs league.

Divis himself started a thread a while back about Northern Ireland being the worse place in Europe for race crime. No-one saw that as inflammatory. I didn't see anyone jumping to the defence of that region. What we saw was a good understanding of the problems faced and a civil discusion of the whys and wherfores. Why can't this thread be the same?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:55 AM

Divis hasn't a history of inflammatory posts towards the Irish though but.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:42 PM

Here's the Institute for Public Policy Research home page. Could someone flag up the research report that kicked off this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Joe Richman
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:32 PM

I see my buddy Big Mick is posting here. I've got a story about American youth out wandering at 3 AM to tell you.

My oldest daughter (age 24) announced on Thanksgiving that she was going to a "Midnight Madness" shopping event in Commerce at the Citadel. Commerce is an industrial burg next to East LA, with a big outlet shopping mall in an old tire factory (The tire factory had a babylonian facade, hence the name "Citadel"). Commerce also has a casino a couple of blocks down Telegraph Rd.

My wife had a fit over that, even when she said her girlfriend was going too.   Well I had to go along to ride "shotgun" for the two of them. We got there, got parked and got in line. There were long lines in all stores. Not one argument did I see, an occasional inquiry about where the end of the line was, but that's all. Most of the shoppers were teens or twenties. Most were Latinos (probably Mexican, but I didn't do a survey). My daughter's blond friend was easy to spot. All of the racial/ethnic groups who live within an hour of the place were represented. Some were dressed like punk rockers. We got some pretty good bargains and left at a little after 3 AM. I didn't notice a big security presence, although there was some of what's normal for an LA mall. No drunks, no one hit on the young women in our group, no problems.

So please keep the British and Irish Yobs out of LA.

Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:48 PM

It's nice to read that Joe thanks. Throughout this thread I had asked for our friends in America and Canada to let us know their thoughts.

I imagine Boston or Chicago couldn't say the same thing, as both are full of Irish.

Divis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:52 PM

Great story, Joe. Kind of shoots holes in the stereotypes, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Joe Richman
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:54 PM

I didn't say keep out the British or Irish. Just when you come leave the Yobs behind.

BTW I have an old 78 titled "Serutan Yob" (a parody of "Nature Boy").

Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:35 PM

McGrath go to the BBC website, in search type in Britain`s teenagers and drink, and you will read all about the report plus the many replies to the survey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:43 PM

C`mon McGrath have you visited the BBC Site yet, before anyone does so, be prepared for a shock, the various reports are a lot worse than has been suggested on this Thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:08 PM

McGrath, once again, go the BBC Site and in Search type , UK youths among worst in Europe, and you will see the results of The Institute for Public Policy Research. Hurry along now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:12 PM

McGrath I visited that site days ago.
not a jot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:29 PM

You will find bellow the 'SHOCKING' info that has lead to this lengthy thread.

From what I see Britain topping the yobs league exists only in the imagination of ard mhacha, although they might make the playoffs!



UK youths 'among worst in Europe'

British youngsters have a reputation for heavy drinking
Britain's teenagers are among the most badly behaved in Europe, a study by a think-tank has suggested.
On every indicator of bad behaviour - drugs, drink, violence, promiscuity - the UK was at or near the top, said the Institute for Public Policy Research.

The institute looked at the results of a number of studies of adolescents conducted in recent years.

The researchers believe the country's record can be explained by a collapse in family and community life in the UK.

Free time

Measured against German, French and Italian youngsters, British 15-year-olds are drunk more often and involved in more fights, and a higher proportion have had sex.

The institute says young Britons are marked out by how they spend their free time.

They are not learning how to behave - how to get on in life - as they need to

Nick Pearce
IPPR


Send us your comments
Why teens go wrong

In England, 45% of 15-year-old boys spend most evenings out with their friends, and in Scotland the figure is 59%.

In France just 17% of boys spend their time in the same way.

On the other hand, European teenagers tend to sit down for meals with their parents far more often.

Some 93% of Italian teenagers eat regularly with their families; in the UK just 64% of 15-year-olds do the same.

'Structured interaction'

Nick Pearce, from IPPR, said these figures pointed to an "increasing disconnect" between children and adults.

He said youngsters were learning how to behave from one another instead of from adults.

"Because they don't have that structured interaction with adults, it damages their life chances," he said.

"They are not learning how to behave - how to get on in life - as they need to."

The researchers concluded that the lack of adult interaction has left British teenagers increasingly vulnerable to failure.

Brand awareness

One study looked at by the IPPR suggested 38% of British 15-year-olds in 2003 had tried cannabis - compared with 7% in Sweden and 27% in Germany.

Another said that in 2003 British 15-year-olds were the third worst binge-drinkers in Europe - only Denmark and Ireland were worse.

Britons are also more immersed in consumerism than American youngsters, the research claimed.

This was indicated by their brand awareness and the amount of importance they attached to consumer goods and possessions.

The IPPR's report is due to be published next week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:04 PM

If at all possible I prefer to be able to get at the actual report is this kind of thing rather than what some journalist makes of it.

This kind of summary doesn't really give too much to go on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:19 PM

It was enough for Mr Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:40 PM

The BBC story was, of course, quite enough to justify starting an interesting thread, which has been disrupted at times by petulant and irrelevant sniping. It is much better to read earlier posts before shooting off at random. It is advisable, when in a hole, to stop digging.

The IPPR report was not available at that time. The BBC summary, dated November 2nd, concluded with the words "The IPPR's report is due to be published next week."

Now it has been published. My query was directed at finding if it is possible to read it online.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:48 PM

You cannot deny that the original post was with a malicious intent
"Britain tops the yobs league"
Fresh from the front page of THE SUN


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:49 PM

..or perhaps you can?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:15 PM

I suppose we can cut ourselves a bit more slack in the way we behave, because in England its not so easy for people to lay their hands on guns as it is in LA. Its unusual - even here in the 'strife torn' gun crime capital of the UK for anyone including professional criminals to settle disputes with a gun. Whereas in America, they kill the equivalent of the population of a medium sized town every year in 'gun related incidents'.

When I was a teacher , most visiting American teachers thought our kids were far more polite than the home grown variety. Still the grass is always greener. I personally, always had the impression I was dealing with little bastards.

America is very good on these 'polite-isms' - the have a nice day syndrome - which one sometimes feels masks quiet desperation. Still maybe a bit of 'quiet' desperation instead of the noisy stuff would be a change.

And as for the title ....you know Ard would never be anything but polite and pleasant, and a perfect gentleman when it came to the subject of the English. that's just the little sweetie that he is, and we have all grown to love him for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:30 AM

No amount of twisting and turning will alter the obvious in that BBC report,
McGrath you are wrong the details in the report were there for all to see and read, the obvious answers were contained in the BBC report and no amount of silly hair-splitting will disguise that.
To return to the main point of this Thread, Britain is in serious trouble, and admitting as much will help matters, a few PMs I received from sensible `Catters convinced me I was correct to give this disease affecting our youth an airing on Mudcat, to suggest otherwise is foolish and turning the debate into a personal attack, is hiding from the real crux of the matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:45 AM

I always had McGrath down as a "sensible 'Catter"
There you go I'm wrong again


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:56 AM

The report by IPPR was issued in full on November 6th and can be read at their Site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:19 AM

The full report, Freedom's Orphans:Raising youth in a changing world, can be purchased from the Ippr site. An executive summary is available for free. There is no league table mentioned in the summary for Britain to be top of. The word yob is not mentioned in the summary.

Tell me ard have you purchased the full report?

Perhaps based upon this information the title of the thread can be changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:27 AM

Ard mhacha is correct. I went and read the IPPR on line the day that he started this thread. I doubt his intention was to bring controversy here as is now being insinuated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:33 AM

I think Shields is correct. Ard Mhacha's post was politically motivated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:42 AM

The PMs from Mudcatters tells me otherwise, and to get back to the main point , Google, British towns and drunk youths, this is the reality, hiding behind a nationality issue will not make this go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:59 AM

This is rubbish. Ard mhacha has brought a lot to both sections of this site. He has always displayed good manners and etiquette.
Shields appears to the new pretender to the throne regarding Irish matters on this site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:00 AM

I must say, Ard, although I fully agree that we do have a problem your thread title does now seem to be somewhat misleading. I was unaware until just now of the phrase "On every indicator of bad behaviour - drugs, drink, violence, promiscuity - the UK was at or near the top, said the Institute for Public Policy Research." This is lifted directly from the BBC report. No where does it say yobs, Britain or top. I understand fully that you may be using journalistic licence here but I am begining to appreciate that Shields Folk is not so much disputing the findings but disputing the way you reported it.

No hair splitting, no play on words. There is a world of difference between "France wins the World cup" and "France nearly wins the World cup." Neither I nor anyone apart from yourself knows what your motives were so I am not even going to go there. Can you admit though that your thread title was false? Can you show us anywhere that proves the thread title to be true? Would you be happy to change it to "Youth in the UK amongst the worst"?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:05 AM

Thank you DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:26 AM

A letter taken at random from one of the many that the BBC received on the problem of binge drinking,

"Part of the problem of binge drinking is down to this country`s horrible culture. We see "getting drunk" and the subsequent vandalism and violence as amusingly funny, but in reality it is quite a serious problem.
Until people are made to realise that drinking isn`t as cool it is made out to be, I don`t believe anything can be done about it. Andy Leeds UK.

The important part of this letter is the reference to drinking being "amusingly funny", a glance through this Thread will confirm Andy`s point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:31 AM

"Binge Drinking" is not mentioned in the summary,alcohol abuse in lower socio-economic groups is. Thats not exactly a problem confined to todays youth is it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:45 AM

Well okay, say we're the worst. Our young people are swine in human form (most teachers will go along with that). Whatever is bad, we're at it.

Now have you any suggestions to improve things, or is this just a general 'by gum! things don't appear to be what they should be, and they ain't wot they once were' sort of whinge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:49 AM

The report by the Ippr appears not to suggest that British youth is screwing up our society but British society is screwing up our youth!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 09:01 AM

I find it interesting that it seems to be fine to discuss the social ills in the North of Ireland, but a thread that reports on what is a grave problem in Great Britain draws a whole discussion of motives. Parenthetically, I chuckle at the irony of the complainers often being folks that are all too quick to criticize US society.

I thought ard was quite gracious in being very clear in the opening post with the following: "I can tell them that the condemnation in that report also applies to Ireland, all 32 counties".

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 09:05 AM

And you were very gracious trying to insult(perhaps too strong a word)me in a language I do not understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 09:07 AM

Actually, I was not addressing you in that language. I was addressing ard. Then you responded in a way that seemed to indicate that you understood it, so I addressed you in it. Details certainly are a pain in the old arse, are they not?

le gach dea-mhéin,      

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 09:10 AM

You have read the report haven't you Mick?
Tell me what did you think of it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 09:14 AM

bush league debaters trick, SF. Now that you have been called on an inaccuracy, you attempt to shift the premise off you to me. Won't work. You took a thread that was intended to address an ill in your society and hijacked it to a discussion of the initiator of the thread. I am not going to discuss it with you, as you are not interested in discussion. But yes, I did look it over.

le gach dea-mhéin,      

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

The thing is my argument is based on the inaccuracy of the thread title. I think it was meant to be inflamatory, if it wasn't ok but it would be more accurate to change it. May I suggest "British society is screwing up our youth"


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:39 AM

What about "British mudcatter is screwing the Irish".


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:39 AM

What about reading the report?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 10:12 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 04:17 AM

Ta an SF, [not Sein Fein], is beyond logical thought, Big Mick I have been following this discussion with interest and was amazed to find so many people ignoring the main purpose, which was sidelined in the interest of nationality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:30 AM

I'm going to duck out here. I agree with Ard Mhacha completely. We do need to address these issues. I agree with Shields Folk that the thread title is wrong. I don't however see what one has to do with the other. It could have been an interesting excercise, maybe even bringing a greater awareness of the issue and possibly even helping but it has been sidelined. Would one of you please give a little? Either -

1. Ard Mhacha requests a title change or

2. Shields Folk starts a seperate thread about journalistic license in thread titles.

Before I go I would point out one thing before everyone else thinks that the UK is bathed in blood, urine and vomit every weekend. It isn't. The vast majority of youngsters are good, law abiding, pleasant people who are fun to be around. The large city centres realy suffer from the effects of the idiots but it is probably a few late hours a week in a small percentage of the land mass. Most times and places are safe to go and fun to be in.

Why do you think the yobs make the papers so often? Because they are news. No-one ever reports that a crowd of young men and women go out to enjoy themselves, have a few beers, enjoy a dance and some music, then go home happy and without having caused any trouble. Lets hope that whatever we have to do about it the majority win out in the end.

BTW - This has happened since the 50's at least. Who remembers the lawless days of the Ted's ripping up cinemas? Move on to the 60's - Mods and Rockers battling it out at the seaside? Don't think we had anything similar in the last 30 years so they have just re-packaged yesterdays news.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:11 AM

I agree with the last part of the post. These discussions always cause folks to paint with too broad a brush, and the perception is always worse than the fact. An analogy is the Catholic Priest abuse scandal here in the States. As bad as that scandal has rocked the Church, the worst detractors admit that the number of Priests engaged in such activity is something less than 2%. While the scope of the problem for Great Britain is certainly serious, I would be interested in knowing what percentage of British youth engage in these activities.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:16 AM

Is this the report - "Freedom's Orphans:
Raising youth in a changing world"? There's a summary of it on the IPPR site, though not the full report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:16 AM

Well said Dave. The truth will out (but it won't make the papers!).
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Den
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:42 AM

It has always a sad reflection on our media that bad news equals big news. I remember once talking to a journalist friend who pretty well summed it up. He had been working for a small local paper on a story about a pensioner who at the age of 89 was still living independently, volunteering in her community and generally making a difference in the lives of the people around her. Space was tight for the particular issue and someone brought in a story about joy-riders who had crashed a stolen car. The editor immediately asked if either of the joyriders had been killed in the crash. When he was told no he reluctantly agreed to, "run the old lady story."


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 10:21 AM

I remember this last point struck me very forcefully that week that they published the forged Hitler diaries. Pages and pages about the Hitler Diaries.

John Keats's diary was published in the same issue of the Sunday papers, it got less than a hundred words. Years of genuine scholarship brushed aside as unimportant to make way for - the vague chance of publishing the memoirs of a mass murderer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 05:50 AM

So the upshot of all this is as follows:

- No mention of yobs in the report refered to
- No league or tables actually exist
- That if such tables did exist Britain would not top any of them

What a glorious waste of time and energy.

Thanks to Shields Folk for at least exposing the original post as being the utter rubbish it was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:02 AM

Still a lot of pissheads though....


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Bull Ring Bill
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:04 AM

I see the our teenagers are mugging people not for their property alone but for the thrill they get from mugging, two boys were sentenced to 21 years and 17 for stabbing to death a man who was foolish enough to fight back.
The fact that someone will have the nerve to fight back is part of the thrill, they then proceed to kick the shit out of them, now it is definitely not safe to walk the streets, `Brum at night is out for me, no more walking, it`s the taxi now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 09:12 PM

Hell's teeth weelittledrummer - 29 Nov 06 - 10:02 AM

"Still a lot of pissheads though...."

With regard to drink, compared to what the UK was like in Georgian and Victorian times we could be compared to Puritan/Calvinists.

Oh and GUEST,Bull Ring Bill - 29 Nov 06 - 10:04 AM

"I see the our teenagers are mugging people not for their property alone but for the thrill they get from mugging, two boys were sentenced to 21 years and 17 for stabbing to death a man who was foolish enough to fight back."

"I see our teenagers are mugging people not for their property alone but just for the thrill of it". Really? How many teenagers are there in Birmingham Guest Bull Ring Bill? The abhorent actions of two of them seems to sufficient justification for you to tar them all with the same brush. Absolute crap and you damn well know it. A little piece of advice, inject a bit of realism into your life. If you wish to surrender your freedom of life and movement to the irrational fears you describe here then by all means go ahead, but please don't attribute that loss to anyone else apart from yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:52 AM

Calm down Teribus. When you're as old as us, you will start enjoying your paranoid delusions and bleating on about sod all, like we do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Bull Ring Bill
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:00 AM

Teribus I am unaware of where you live but take my advice if you are ever in the area of `Brum and find yourself slighty tipsy, please do what me and my mate does and ring for a taxi.
It is a few years now, from I walked home from my local, the streets around my area of`Brum are definitely no go after dark, and more so at the weekend, there must be the odd person on this site who is familiar with Birmingham,tell me if I am wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:42 AM

If you live in Tamworth, take a taxi. Its a long way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:20 PM

If you live in Tamworth, take cyanide. It's the ONLY way! LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Bullring Bill
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:54 PM

No, I don`t come from Tamworth and there is nothing wrong with Tamworth, manys the good hamshank came from the home of the Tamworth pig, a much more respectable animal than some of the young holligans now stalking our streets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:22 PM

"You can always judge a man by the company he keeps
And the Pig got up and slowly walked away."


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:29 PM

Meant to post that myself Teribus!

Isnt it "You can tell a man who boozes by the company he chooses, etc" though? I suppose yours works just as well though...perhaps we are both right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:45 PM

Was that a pig or a bore who wrote that reply ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Bullring Bill
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:37 AM

You are right about the company I keep in `Brum, I do my best to avoid them, but when they mugged some friends I NOW know to stay well clear. Who is Teribus and where does he live, he seems to know a lot about Birmingham.
The Brummies on this Site could inform him of the weekend no go areas, in our dear old town


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 07:09 AM

Me, Guest?

Well, I have been called both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Balham the builder.
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 07:38 AM

He's from Balham, not Birmingham Bill. Mentioned in another thread here. South London.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 04:11 PM

You could take him to 11 route bus stop in Erdington. Get him to take the circular tour, and say - anywhere in that circle - keep out of, to be on the safe side.   Although it would leave out the strife torn Erdington High Street, and the bomb cratered byways of West Brom - the living hell that is Stourbridge, and Morrisons car park in Redditch.

Go safe out there, Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Bullring Bill
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 04:47 PM

Drummer boy you know your `Brum, and not forgetting Aston it is close by my home, hells half acre.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM

My wife used to teach at Manor park School in Aston. A fine semi rural location, near to spaghetti junction for a quick getaway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

Sorry, not from Birmingham, or anywhere close. Not from Balham, I couldn't even tell you where that is, although someone does fervently belive that I once wrote something derrogatory about the place with some connection to a builders yard. When asked to cut and paste what I had supposedly written he/she declined to do so and another 'catter pointed out a search of my postings revealed no such reference to Balham. Still inspite of the most compelling evidence people will believe whatever it is they want to believe, with particular reference to this thread

Ard Mhacha - There is no such thing as a Yobs League Table
Ard Mhacha - Even if there were Britains youth would not top that table.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:56 PM

Jesus Christ mate, Ard finds something that we're good at - something at which we excel....and this is the thanks he gets.

I don't feel you have the right to reject the trophy without consulting the rest of the team.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:46 AM

Anyone seen todays BBC news now it is not safe to travel by bus,drivers are asking for help from the polyce. street crime up by 85%,


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:52 AM

Just had another look at the BBC news 24 hours report on inner city crime, all of the people interviewed said they would not walk home, taxi was the preferred transport, don`t believe me have a look.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 11:35 AM

Funny that nothing from Britain is to be trusted apart from the BBC news isn't it?

Look, will people just accept that there IS a problem with street crime and anti-social behaviour in the UK (The WHOLE of the UK that is). Can no-one see that the press will always make it seem worse than it is because that is what sells papers and TV.

If we believe nothing we hear and only half of what we see we may start to make some headway. Oh yes, and accept that nothing on an internet forum should be taken at face value.

Now, excuse me while I walk into town and take a bus back later. I don't expect you will see me again...

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Barnacle Bill the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 12:12 PM

We interrupt this programme to announce that Tamworth have reached the 3rd round of the FA Cup, look out the big boys, and a happy old Blues fan says we are on our way to the Premier, now back to the studio.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Den
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 02:50 PM

Stay safe Dave and don't accept any sweets from strangers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,Bullring Bill
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 03:22 PM

Dave Careful I wouldn`t take the chance and I am no dwarf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM

Is your information anecdotal or was it based on actual research ard?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:08 PM

..and dont get me started on football Hooligans


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:36 PM

Well, I'm back. No music tonight, just a few friends I wanted to see. Had a few beers though so excuse me for any slurred typing...

Must admit why I am back early first. can't stand being in Manchester after 10pm - Usualy set off back by 9 but was a bit later today. The reason is that it gets far too rowdy. Too many young blokes wanting to prove that they can piss £100 up a wall in a single night. Too many ladettes trying to copy them. It was a bit cold for them tonight so I olnly say a few dozen staggering up Peter Street on my way back. Didn't notce any pissing up the wall. Perhaps teh cold helps. Anyway - Back to the festivities.

I didn't walk all the way in - I sprained my ankle yesterday, in Manchester again. I got the bus to the Crescent in Salford and had a drink in there first. Walked the last mile and half to Deansgate though. After having two pints of something a bit stronger than I usualy have the ankle felt fine. Arrived at the Knott fringe on Deansgate about 40 minutes later and found I had just missed the people I was after but stopped for a pint of Ginger Marble anyway.

Caught up with them at bar 38 on Peter Street and had a half (it was crap) before leaving for Mr Thomas's chop house where they stayed and I left to walk to Picadilly for the bis home. Decided to stay on the bus all the way home insted of getting off at the Crescent again. Sense prevailed:-)

Apart from said pillocks on Peter Street didn't see any trouble. Bit early probably. But - Two bus rides and a long walk around the city centre did not result in my murder, rape or sale into slavery. Not what people want to hear i guess. I suppose i will neve rbe a journalist...

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:25 PM

We need capital pinishment for anyone under 18......On the grounds that if they are under 18 they will be guilty of something.

My Mrs had her car nicked and torched (2.5 miles from D t G's area). A local vicar has just had his face disfigured and robbed of £4.59. My local newspaper is full of muggings, thefts etc by far the most done by under 18's. DtG is a close friend of mine but he is far too reasonable and far too intelligent for me to cross swords with, but we really must bring back Capital punishment for the under 18's. There are far too many of them so a cull of the bad ones would be a benefit to us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:37 PM

The garden ornament is hard to get through to, it didn`t happen Spot, well not according to DTG, the problem is not your ankle, being dropped too often on your head causes cracks in any ornament.
All your yobs DTG are likely behaving like angels in some Spanish holiday resort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM

And Shields Folk , yes we are talking about soccer scum , all 200 of them who support Cliftonville, our Gaelic games supporters all 80,000 of them at Croke Park are not segregated as are all your soccer fans, and there is never any crowd trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:02 PM

Ah, so the hooligan element isn't confined to any certain nationality only to soccer (god I hate using that word) fans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:19 PM

Shields folk Soccer was the termed used in Ireland to distinguish Association football from Gaelic football,and this goes back a very long way, well before the Yanks used it, no one here seems to be annoyed about it`s use.
Gaelic games can have the odd fight but mostly between the teams on the field, I have taken English relations to our Gaelic games at Croke Park and they too remarked at the non-segregation of the rival fans.
Rugby League games in England have never had any trouble with rival fans fighting after games, as the two teams go at it hammer and tongs, likewise with our Gaelic game, not to mention Rugby Union again no crowd trouble.
Like England, Soccer here seems to draw the yob element, but thankfully the Clifonville yobs rioting on Saturday is rare enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:05 PM

I always thought that 'Soccer' was a word used by the upper classes in England to from Rugger, I didn't realise it was invented in Ireland.
I don't like using the word because the most popular team sport in the world is known by the world as 'football' and although soccer is an english word it sounds american to me!

By the way when was the last time you went to an English league footy game.
I can't say I have seen any hooliganism for a long long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:07 PM

Now who can see where I left out the words distinguish it, from the above post?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:16 PM

Just call it football, Shields Folk. That is its proper name, and us colonials will figure it out.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:24 PM

Thanks Mick, now in an act of Mudcat reconciliation I would like to invite ard mhacha to attend a game of association football at St James Park next year. It may not be one of the bigger games or in the best seats but I'll buy the tickets!


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:17 PM

Can I be referee ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:25 PM

What do we need a referee for? meet up before the game, few beers, off to the match, shout at the referee a bit (is that where you come in divis?) stand up if you hate sunderland (play along ard), of to the pub to conglatulate comiserate, mebys of to a folkie pub (might have to walk through Byker though but)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:49 AM

Shield Folk please go to the Irish Independent newspaper and latch on to Sport and you will see the various sports pages outlined, look out for the Soccer page.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:54 AM

Google in RTE Shields Folk and you will see the word SOCCER on their sports page, this may enlighten you, I tell you we have used the term for years.
If their is any Irish around your area, just ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:27 AM

OK, the 'word' is popular in Ireland and the US. But mention football to an Irishman and I'm pretty sure what game he will be thinking of.

So your not coming to watch the toon then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 10:11 AM

I spent many a Saturday at St James Park, in those days holligans were unheard off, Jackie Milburn, Len White, Frank Brennan, all stars when the Magpies had a team, Roker Park as well Shack and all the rest of the bank of England team, and there was never a word, both sets of supporters mixed and exchanged the banter, imagine that now, there would be murder.
Todays Irish News has a photo of the victorious Derry City team winner of the League of Ireland Cup, and the heading, "Is Derry City the best Soccer Team in Ireland,probably," it was the Carlsberg Cup, geddit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM

So in what way am I hard to get through to, Ard? I have already agreed that there is a problem with yobs and that something needs to be done about it. All I have pointed out is that it is not as endemic as the press make out. It has already been pointed out that the title you gave the thread is incorrect and misleading but I have also said that that does not matter either. We still need to address the issue of yobs.

Maybe I need to agree more? OK, I'll give it a try.

Us English are a set of scum-sucking, murdering thieves who eat our own children. Every street corner has a mugger on it, unless of course it is taken up with a slave trader. I get raped three times a day by the local convent school girls and I cannot get out of my front gate due to the seven foot drifts of vomit and blood.

All other nations are far better. Their toilets smell of christmas pudding and cinnamon. All the people will give their last penny to you and should you happen to get injured on the incredably safe streets the government will sweep you up in swathes of cotton wool while sweet sixteen year old virgins will kiss the injury better. There is no such thing as punishment beatings, no bombs, no removing of knee-caps with black and decker drills and no drug dealing.

There, I have got it of my chest now and feel so much better for it. Now, just maybe, Ard will accept that I have agreed with him and stop making untrue remarks with no retraction? What is you do for a living btw, Ard? Journalist by any chance? Polititian? I have noticed that whenever a question is asked or a point is raised that will show you may have been a little economical with the truth you do tend to ignore it or change the subject. Any reason for that?

For what it is worth I am an architypical Englisman. My four grandparents were all different nationalities. One of my great-grandparents was even from the green Isle where all is wine and roses.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:06 PM

From todays Birmingham Post, At Birmingham Crown Court 60 football thugs were sentenced after a mass brawl between the fans of Aston Villa and West Brom, reports of running fights outside the Uplands Pub in Harmondsworth with as many as 80 or more involved.
Sentenced to 18 months was a millionaire company director and and ex soldier who fought in Iraq.

Did you see todays Post DTG,? or were you having a quite drink in the Uplands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:23 PM

Ard, do you consider Dave is LYING when he says he went about unmolested the other night? Or do you consider he is accusing you of LYING about these facts, which he has said he accepts, by telling us of an instance in which these dire circumstances didnt ensue?

If this isnt so, then it seems to me you are pushing needlessly hard on this matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:59 PM

as I said I haven't seen (what do you call it, football hooligans?) for a very very long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 06:01 PM

oh, and weren't those the days when they sent little boys up chimneys?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 06:50 PM

Ard, I don't know how else to say it. I have supported your views almost from the start. See my post at 09 Nov 06 - 05:19 AM to confirm what I suspect you already know. It was only when I found out that there was no league table and that Britain would not have been top anyway that I disputed your thread title. Even then I said the two issues were not related. One was undeniable, there is a problem with yobs in the UK. The other, your thread title, is a complete falsehood.

I intensely dislike sensationalist headlines, including this thread title, but I accept your right to use them. Hopefuly you accept everyones elses right to treat them with the pinch of salt they deserve. I and a number of other people know that there is a problem. We also know that the streets of Britain are not as bad as you or the press paint them. Can you not just take that chip of your shoulder and accept that not everything British is bad?

And, no, I was not having a drink in The Uplands. I guess your knowledge of UK towns is not as good as you tell us if you think that someone from Salford would go to Birmingham for a quiet pint. Harmondsworth was also noteable for it's riots in 2005 where gang warfare between Asian and Afro-Carribean youths broke out. I guess that's the fault of us Bastard Brits as well is it?

Anecdotelay the only time I have been intimidated in pub by football yobs was when I was in Listowel and the local branch of the Chelsea supporters club came in drowning their sorrows after having lost to Manchester United. It was the only time I have ever had to say I live in Bolton. Not an admission anyone would make without good reason...

I see I am still right about you not being able to address a point that makes some of your claims look false though. Is that why you just keep quoting the press? Do you not think that wild claims detract from our central proposition that there is a problem with yobs? Just think about it.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 06:52 PM

Sorry - I retract something instantly having re-read it. Most things British ARE bad. I intended to say that not everything ENGLISH is bad.

Mea Culpa.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 06:56 PM

Do you know perhaps we should study the press in other countries for football hooligans, Holland, Germany, Italy perhaps Spain, this is not an English problem, it was once but like most other 'sports' we aren't as good as we used to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 12:30 PM

Supporters of the Baggies and Villa arranged to meet outside the Uplands Pub on the afternoon of the game, the thugs used pool balls, bricks, bottles and glasses, the violence overspilled into peoples gardens women and young children in their gardens had to flee terrified into their home, This is part of a Birmingham Post report on the row.

On todays Radio 5 live the night editor of the Daily Express giving his opinion on street violence used the word yobs twice, according to him street violence is in urgent need of government action, note this was the editor of the Daily Express not the Guardian, get your heads out of the sand and look around, hiding behind nationalism won`t cure this disease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM

"hiding behind nationalism won`t cure this disease."

Ditto


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 01:55 PM

Adele Eastman the fiancee of murdered lawyer Tom ap Rhys Pryce, moved the nation when she described her sadness in a statement to the Judge who sentenced two young killers to jail.
Donnel Carty 19, sentenced to 21 years, is said to have smirked, and 18 year old Delano Brown, jailed for 17 years, rolled his eyes on apparent boredom as Adele`s words were read to the Old Bailey by a barrister.

Anew report suggests street robbers often catty out their vicious crimes to boost their street cred or motivated by a sheer desire to fight.

The study, includes interviews with 120 offenders- a third of whom have been arrested more than 50 times- and found street culture can be a far more important factor in such crimes that financial gain.

The reports authors -one of whom is Professor Trevor Bennett director of the University of Glamorgan`s centre for criminology- discovered that one element in the excitement felt by the violent offenders comes from overpowering the victim and obtaining dominance.

"It`s for the fun, `cos the point of street robbery is to get them to fight back, innit", said one criminal.

Will future generations wonder why our current climate tolerated such a state of affairs? and what reasons will they offer for such acceptance.

Have we become beaten into submission by a political atmosphere which suggests any sort of hard line is a form embarrassingly untrendy discipline which smacks too much of right-wing conservatism?.

How much longer can society ignore what is happening on the streets and those inclined to adopt a "liberal" stance write off as "hysterical" anyone who suggests, we are heading for a more serious breakdown of law and order?

An "I`m all right Jack" attitude fails us all- not least because the tragic death of Tom ap Rhys Pryce has shown now anyone can have, as the Old Bailey judge said "the grave misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time".

The above from Catherine Jones, Western Mail, on the National Website of Wales.

She is not my sister.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 02:00 PM

See what I mean? :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM

Let's try again then. Remember all the Northern Ireland threads in which many people from that region, including yourself Ard, said that people on mainland Britain could not comment because you had to live there to see what was realy happening? Can you not see parallels here? You are repeatedly quoting the press as if what they say is the truth. It isn't. It is only part of it. Would you be happy if I was to post all the articles I ould find about crime and violence in Northern Ireland? Believe me, for every article you have posted I have refrained from posting a similar one about Northern Ireland.

Yes, we all have our problems. No, it's no good turning a blind eye to it. But can you see not see what is happening here? You are suggesting the UK, or Britain as you so blatantly put in the title is a cesspool of violence and iniquity. No where has anyone suggested it is perfect. The truth is that it is somewhere in between. All societies have their problems. Some are worse than others. Some have different issues.

Remember the man-eating virus of a couple of years back? Remember last years bird-flu? Remember the English press having a field day with Irish 'terrorists'? It's what sells papers. The yobs have always been there, I wish that they would go away but they won't leave overnight and just quoting the press over and over does absolutely nothing to further your argument. Unless of course your argument is that the press know better than us? In which case I might as well just go away.

Before I do though I would suggest you take a poll amongst Mudcatters that have visited the UK in recent times. See how much violence and thuggery they have seen. Just check out whether they will be coming back. I won't start it myself but leave it to you to find out the truth for yourself.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM

DTG, You shouldn`t talk with your mouth full of sand, you know the lady makes sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

a bloke called Mike gregory (Derby)wrote this one

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/christmasontheestate.mp3


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 03:44 AM

I like the expression, Ard:-) What does it mean? You any nearer addressing the issues I have raised or is it just more smoke and mirrors?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 04:01 AM

I assumed it was a private joke between the 2 of you.
Sand and the lady??
Help us thick brits out please Ard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

>>>The squirrel works hard in the withering heat all summer long,
>>>Building and improving his house and laying up supplies for the
>>>winter.
>>>
>>>The Grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and
>>>plays the summer away.
>>>
>>>Come winter, the squirrel is warm and well fed.
>>>
>>>The shivering grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out
>>>in the cold.
>>>
>>>THE BRITISH VERSION:
>>>
>>>The squirrel works hard in the withering heat all summer long,
>>>building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.
>>>
>>>The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and
>>>plays the summer away.
>>>
>>>Come winter, the squirrel is warm and well fed.
>>>
>>>A social worker finds the shivering grasshopper, calls a press
>>>conference and demands to know why the squirrel should be allowed
>>>to be warm and well fed while others less fortunate, like the
>>>grasshopper, are cold and starving.
>>>
>>>The BBC shows up to provide live coverage of the shivering
>>>grasshopper; with cuts to a video of the squirrel in his
>>>comfortable warm home with a table laden with food.
>>>
>>>The British press informs people that they should be ashamed that
>>>in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to
>>>suffer so while others have plenty.
>>>
>>>The Labour Party, Greenpeace, Animal Rights and The Grasshopper
>>>Council of GB demonstrate in front of the squirrel's house.
>>>
>>>The BBC, interrupting a cultural festival special from Notting
>>>Hill with breaking news, broadcasts a multi cultural choir singing
>>>"We Shall Overcome".
>>>
>>>Ken Livingstone rants in an interview with Trevor McDonald that
>>>the squirrel has gotten rich off the backs of grasshoppers, and
>>>calls for an immediate tax hike on the squirrel to make him pay his
>>>"fair share" and increases the charge for squirrels to enter Inner
>>>London.
>>>
>>>In response to pressure from the media, the Government drafts the
>>>Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti Discrimination Act,
>>>retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
>>>
>>>The squirrel's taxes are reassessed.
>>>
>>>He is taken to court and fined for failing to hire grasshoppers
>>>as builders for the work he was doing on his home and an additional
>>>fine for contempt when he told the court the grasshopper did not
>>>want to work.
>>>
>>>The grasshopper is provided with a council house, financial aid
>>>to furnish it and an account with a local taxi firm to ensure he
>>>can be socially mobile.
>>>
>>>The squirrel's food is seized and re distributed to the more
>>>needy members of society, in this case the grasshopper.
>>>
>>>Without enough money to buy more food, to pay the fine and his
>>>newly imposed retroactive taxes, the squirrel has to downsize and
>>>start building a new home.
>>>
>>>The local authority takes over his old home and utilises it as a
>>>temporary home for asylum seeking cats who had hijacked a plane to
>>>get to Britain as they had to share their country of origin with
>>>mice. On arrival they tried to blow up the airport because of
>>>Britain's apparent love of dogs.
>>>
>>>The cats had been arrested for the international offence of
>>>hijacking and attempted bombing but were immediately released
>>>because the police fed them pilchards instead of salmon whilst in
>>>custody.
>>>
>>>Initial moves to then return them to their own country were
>>>abandoned because it was feared they would face death by the mice.
>>>
>>>The cats devise and start a scam to obtain money from peoples
>>>credit cards. >
>>>
>>>A Panorama special shows the grasshopper finishing up the last of
>>>the squirrel's food, though spring is still months away, while the
>>>council house he is in crumbles around him because he hasn't
>>>bothered to maintain the house.
>>>
>>>He is shown to be taking drugs.
>>>
>>>Inadequate government funding is blamed for the grasshopper's
>>>drug 'illness'.
>>>
>>>The cats seek recompense in the British courts for their
>>>treatment since arrival in the UK.
>>>
>>>The grasshopper gets arrested for stabbing an old dog during a
>>>burglary to get money for his drugs habit.
>>>
>>>He is imprisoned but released immediately because he has been in
>>>custody for a few weeks.
>>>
>>>He is placed in the care of the probation service to monitor and
>>>supervise him.
>>>
>>>Within a few weeks he has killed a guinea pig in a botched
>>>robbery.
>>>
>>>A commission of enquiry, that will eventually cost 10,000,000
>>>and state the obvious, is set up
>>>
>>>Additional money is put into funding a drug rehabilitation scheme
>>>for grasshoppers and legal aid for lawyers representing asylum
>>>seekers is increased.
>>>
>>>The asylum seeking cats are praised by the government for
>>>enriching Britain's multicultural diversity and dogs are criticised
>>>by the government for failing to befriend the cats.
>>>
>>>The grasshopper dies of a drug overdose.
>>>
>>>The usual sections of the press blame it on the obvious failure
>>>of government to address the root causes of despair arising from
>>>social inequity and his traumatic experience of prison.
>>>
>>>They call for the resignation of a minister.
>>>
>>>The cats are paid a million pounds each because their rights were
>>>infringed when the government failed to inform them there were mice
>>>in the United Kingdom.
>>>
>>>The squirrel, the dogs and the victims of the hijacking, the
>>>bombing, the burglaries and robberies have to pay an additional
>>>percentage on their credit cards to cover losses, their taxes are
>>>increased to pay for law and order and they are told that they will
>>>have to work beyond 65 because of a shortfall in government funds.
>>>


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM

Absolutely brilliant, Guest:-) As well as being funny it also places the blame fair and square where it belongs - Interfering social workers, the press and the government. All the ones that are 'helping' the yobs now;-)
DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 05:48 PM

Thanks Dave it was mine, thought my name went in with it. Sorry cookie needed reset.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 05:54 PM

Well, in that case, Good man yerself, Divis:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 06:45 PM

Very good Divis.
The message of your piece is that England is too generous to the unemployed, too welcoming to assylum seekers, and too considerate to refugees and ethnic minorities.
Is that the source of our problems divis?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 01:29 PM

Ah thought some of you would have recognised my cynicism in the above. Did you watch last nights television news on the subject ? Read the B.B.C. on line news story "the lash" about women drinkers in England. Barmen are terrified of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 01:32 PM

Nothing new there then - Men have been terrified of women for years!

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 01:44 PM

I seen that BBC News item it was called "on the lash" demure English ladies fighting like wildcats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM

Changed times from afternoon tea and crumpets in the sunhouse ard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 03:31 PM

Sunhouse? In England? You've been in Spain too long Divis!

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 06:04 PM

And heading back, new round of holidays starting again !


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Black Beauty
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:34 AM

Yes we girls are worse when we're on the lash. You guys just love it though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:00 PM

A 17 years old youth was arrested today after a man in his 40s was kicked to death by a gang in Henley on Thames, a shopkeeper said that there was a CCTV trained on the spot were the murder took place, he also added that this sort of thing happens in every town on a Friday night, Henley is no different.

The man is talking rubbish, well according to some of our contributors on this Thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM

There are indeed murders in every city every week in the UK. Last year there were over 850. I am realy surprised that they are all on a Friday night. But it must be true because a Henley shopkeeper said so in a newspaper. You learn something new every day...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Black Beauty
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:02 PM

Murder is a terrible crime. Destruction of peoples property is also a terrible crime. A well maintained fence or treasured statue in a garden may mean as much as an expensive car to someone else. All cause misery when vandalised.

I may not know a lot about the subject here in question.
What I do know is the subject of the debate is a distressing reflection on our society wherever it occurs.

Please stop fighting with each other and set an example that we as responsible adults see our own faults first before we judge others.

I am 26 years old and just in from a wonderful night out with friends and we came home peacefully.

Thank you
Charlotte


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:09 PM

Yes Dave, & 2 more Fridays before Christmas, so it looks like the chances of both you & I making it through to the Festive season are pretty slim, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:37 AM

When I was a lad we had Ready Steady Go on the telly every Friday. It put us in a good mood for the weekend. Complete shite nowadays....how many fucking episodes of Murder She Wrote do we have to turn off before they stop putting bollocks like that on the telly. That and Hetty Waithrop disintegrates..... they're ought to be a law against it. I reckon they're all on drugs - these tv producers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:25 AM

Nothing pretty or slim about me, mate:-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:27 AM

Oh, and sorry, Charlotte. You can't have had such a night out. Ard Mhacha will call you a liar if you say otherwise. You probably got murdered, raped and sold into slavery. You just didn't notice it.

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Black Beauty
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:23 AM

Very funny D(tG) I had to read all through these to understand what you meant.
I honestly don't think the problems are as bad nationwide as the media makes out.
Their film crews seem to go the worst areas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM

*LOL* Dave....nor me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 11:29 AM

It's what I keep saying, Charlotte, but what do I know? I'm just a lying bastard brit that lives here;-)

Oh - and a belated welcome btw - Should have said earlier. Keep treating the posts as a bit of light entertainment and you will soon get the measure of most of the madhouse.

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM

this thread is about young people from the most deprived, crime ridden and yob infested parts of Britain.
The ones that joined the army.
It shows that these lads have a much, much, MUCH lower rate of crime than the population of, errr, Northern Ireland.


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