Dylan show bombs on Broadway

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: JJ
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 09:11 AM

Thank you, Guest Bloody Hell, for proving my point, you clever devil, you.

You are not the only one with deep misgivings about both THE PRIATE QUEEN and HIGH FIDELITY. But in years past, you might have told perhaps five or six of your friends how much you disliked these two shows before their Broadway openings.

Now, through the Miracle of Mudcat, you can tell ... perhaps those five or six of us here who enjoy both folk music and the "Broadway showtune culture!"

But I've gotten $30 tickets for Thu 16 Nov, and will see if I agree with M. Ted about Twyla's TIMES or not.

Pity I've given up drugs...

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: GUEST,Bloody Hell
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 01:52 AM

Deep misgivings? JJ, about shit such as The PIRATE QUEEN and HIGH FIDELITY, my misgivings could be only shallow. Spend your money, and do let us know. Some of us have the gene to comprehend showtunes, some of us don't. Same thing with Barbra Streisand, or the Patron Saint of self-pity, Judy Garland. Or God Himself, Ol' Blue Eyes.

Life's too short to worship at the porcelain altar, is all. Enjoy yourself immensely! Come back and set us right. Me especially.

You haven't given up drugs at all, JJ; you just popped $30 for a cultural laxative.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Cool Beans
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:24 AM

If "The Times They Are A-Changing'" were a hit you'd be paying $110 for those tickets. Always look on the bright side of life. Wait, that's another show...

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 11:41 AM

Bloody Hell is just another misguided soul who mistakes his own prejudices for good taste. I am sure he has porcelain idols of his own, and, I doubt that they are better than any of the stuff he's taken potshots at--just different, as they say--

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 12:42 PM

Oh, Lord--I didn't even make it all the way through the video.

How embarrassing. Really. I'm laughing AND crying.

I'm not saying it's bad to sing and dance, I'm just saying that Dylan maybe isn't the best thing for it.

On the other hand, "enjoyable" isn't the same thing as good OR bad, so there's sort of no point in arguing about personal taste.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Desdemona
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:03 PM

The times sure *are* a-changin', when old Bobby--no matter how cynical he comes off at various times--would consent to this variety of sell-out, if only because it makes him look like an elderly panderer to middle-class, middle-aged sensibilities.

To my mind, wouldn't there once have been an essential cognitive dissonance inherent in hearing "Bob Dylan" and "Broadway show" in the same sentence?! It surprises me that this thing ever even made it off the proverbial drawing board, there's just something basically WRONG with the concept, you know?!

~D

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: GUEST,Mr Bloody Hell to you
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:28 PM

So, M Ted, if I don't agree with the point of view of the resident critic, I'm misguided? Does someone think we need guidance? Come off your own porcelain throne!

No, Mr Professional Arbiter of Good Taste, I'm simply, and directly, stating a nearly sixty-year old opinion within a musical forum, about an area of the commercial music world that I find repugnant. I'm fully aware that there are folks who will keep nonsense like "CATS" or "SWEENEY TODD" on the boards, and guess what? I honestly and sincerely think that's too bad. I don't think it says much good about us as a culture.

And I'm not making an effort here to wear a sophisticate's mask in stating my opinion. I find the uncritical acceptance of this low-level entertainment depressing. If you're able to make some peace with it, fine; but don't expect everyone to praise Emperor's Technicolor Dreamcoat.

As a professional musician, there's a lot of the commercial and pop music world that I find shallow, stupid, and grandiose, and the musical theatre being discussed falls into that camp. There are a great number of popular and traditional musicians and artists I care about, and many of them turn up here at Mudcat in discussion. (Believe it or not, M Ted, I've looked back over your posts, and find that I agree with you about nearly everything else.)

Dylan is a major artist; and this production has all the look of some anemic, derivative show-culture "take" on something authentic and vital. I'm not the sort who declares everything musical to be beautiful in its own way. I think there's some ridiculous shit being piped into our cultural habitat, and it bugs me when it becomes glorified by critics like yourself who are hoping to keep theatres full, and yourself in print. Personally, I think that show culture as a whole is decadent and not worth defending.

And in a room where most everyone is saying, "Aw, give it a chance", I feel the urge to speak up. It's crap, friends. Yes, it's Live Dylan Songs conveyed abstractly by pretty people in tights, and you can sit in a nice chair and tap your foot. But it's crap. It was one of Bob's worse ideas. I don't rush to defend it because it's Bob, and I don't make allowances for the dumbing-down necessary to bring any derivative swill to Broadway.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:37 PM

Hey, all of Bob's peers and fans from his own youth ARE middle-aged or elderly now, and most of them are middle-class too.....who the hell else is he supposed to pander to, Desdemona? ;-) You can't stay 22 forever, you know.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Cool Beans
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:45 PM

You can't? Uh oh.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:49 PM

I am not sure what middle class -middle age sensibilities Twyla Tharp plays to--the show is a modern dance piece--modern dance isn't exactly on the table next to the Rice Krispies in most homes, and this piece is edgy, at that.

And it is as funny as Dylan is funny, which is pretty funny. Also, in the Dylanesque fashion, it juxtaposes the funny with moments that are not funny at all.

And, Desdemona, if you can have a Broadway show called "Urintown", and if you can have a Broadway show about Florence Foster Jenkins, if you can have a show about Eva Peron, if you can have musical about IRA terrorists--you ought to be able to find a place for Dylan, too--

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 09:48 PM

What we really need is a Broadway show about Don Cherry...

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 10:02 PM

There was a Beatles on Broadway show about 15 years back. It wasn't bad. And the music was great.
So maybe they need a Dylan impersonator or the man himself to sing hios songs, tell his story and eliminate the dancing.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 01:13 AM

Mr. Bloody Hell, if you knew me, you'd know that I don't accept anything uncritically--and Mr. Professional Arbiter of Good Taste is maybe one of the nicer things I have been called. So I graciously accept the title.

As a professional musician, and and a venerable one at that, you are entitled to ranting against whatever suits you, and you're welcome to do it. If I offended you, in any way, by pointing out that your comments lean more toward ranting than to actual opinion, I am truly sorry.

If you agree with me on most things, it is probably good that we disagree on musical theatre, though I'll bet we disagree on hundreds of other things that just haven't come up yet.

At any rate, the one inexcusable offense you've committed is to accuse me of liking "CATS" and "SWEENEY TODD"--

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Desdemona
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 09:29 AM

I suppose what I meant by "middle-aged" was less chronological than ideological...while we all know that the 1960s are not only well & truly over, and that the "counterculture" was ultimately as big a flop as this how apparently is, it still seems kinda white bread to package Bob Dylan for people who like showtunes. Just my opinion!

~D

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Cool Beans
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 11:09 AM

Other than Ted and JJ (whose critique we eagerly await), who among us actually has seen "The Times They Are A-Changin'"? More to the point, who among us freely criticizing or defending the show has actually seen it? I have not seen it. I have seen that video which Ted says is misleading, so I'm reserving all further judgement.
I agree with Ted that anything is fair game for musicalization. It all depends on the writer and composer.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:23 PM

Is there something wrong with people who like show tunes, Desdemona?

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:37 PM

"To my mind, wouldn't there once have been an essential cognitive dissonance inherent in hearing "Bob Dylan" and "Broadway show" in the same sentence?! It surprises me that this thing ever even made it off the proverbial drawing board, there's just something basically WRONG with the concept, you know?!"


Give us a rest. "sell out"????   "wrong concept"?? Where does anyone come off making decisions as to what others should do? The ego involved in making a statement like that amazes me.

The show sucked because the show sucked. Twyla Tharp is an innovative dance legend and Dylan is an innovative musical legend. This should have been an intriguing show, but it wasn't. End of story.    To come off saying that it should never have been made in the first place is playing Monday morning quarterback with someone elses art. It just isn't right to do.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:51 PM

Did you see it, Ron?

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Desdemona
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:55 PM

"Is there something wrong with people who like show tunes?"

Certainly not; my mom is a great fan of Rogers & Hammerstein musicals & I have many happy childhood associations with them. As the much younger sister of "baby boomers", I've been listened to Dylan all my life, and I'm well aware of Twyla Tharp's credentials, having spent many years as a dancer when I was growing up. It just seemed an odd "fit" to my mind; sorry to have caused so much indignation!

for my part, I'm looking forward to the Broadway musical version of "The Tin Drum"!

~D

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:55 PM

I watched the video but just could not believe anything could be that bad! Where in hell did they find that prop guitar. If Dylan approved this piece of shit then I guess he has slipped badly.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 05:00 PM

Actually no I did not see it. When I said "the show sucked because the show sucked" was meant to be interpreted as the show should stand or fall on its own merits, not because it just seems like a "sell out" of an idea.   I am not trying to judge the show at all.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 06:27 PM

Uh, OK, Ron--and dax, when you see the choreography on stage, it doesn't look like the video clip at all--and Desdemona, "The Tin Drum" could be pretty good--

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Desdemona
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 08:28 PM

Oh, yeah, I'm so down with it; and then they can do "Native Son" on ice!

>;~)

~D

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: JJ
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:44 AM

I saw THE TIMES THEY ARE A'CHANGIN' on Thursday night, fearing that it might be (pace Bloody Hell) not a laxative but an emetic. Or perhaps worse, that it might open up the sluices at both ends, to quote Cool Beans' beloved Monty Python.

It wasn't as bad as I had feared. This is not the same thing as saying it was good...

The three singing characters (older man, younger man, woman) have pop/rockish voices rather than legitimate Broadway ones, which avoids the effect that occurs when (for example) Leontyne Price sings "What I Did For Love," a phenomenon that reminds one of someone trying to dribble a bowling ball.

But behind these three singers are an ensemble of seven very talented dancers, usually dressed as clowns, because we are in some kind of circus.

It's rather like watching Dylan songs as interpreted by Cirque du Soleil. If you like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing you will like. But it didn't do much for me.

Twyla Tharp tells us in a program note that events in this Oedipal struggle will occur with the logic of dreams. What this means in practice is that nothing has to connect with anything in any logical pattern as Twyla merrily plays musical theatre without the net.

Example: the female character shows up with her coat on and carrying a suitcase. She sings, "Don't Think Twice, It's All Right." And then she doesn't leave.

Musically, a lot of the solos come off decently, although the ensemble numbers "Rainy Day Women #12 and 35" and "Maggie's Farm" are pretty horrific. The major singers only howl like they're on American Idol once. And yes, "Like a Rolling Stone," as done with the beach balls is cringe/giggle-inducing.

The audience response to most of the songs was light and baffled applause.

At the end two people in the front row sprang to their feet -- they must have had money in the show -- only to sink down again when they realized this wasn't the curtain call (I thought it was, too) but the finale.

There was no further standing ovation. And on a Broadway where standing ovations are a given, this means something.

I once read a review where the critic called the show in question, "A wretchedly bad idea, incompetently carried out."

Bob will survive -- and I'll bet he got a huge chunk of money up front...

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:26 PM

What did you think of the dancing?

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: JJ
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 08:16 AM

There were six male dancers but only one female dancer, an odd alignment. Extraordinarily talented, of course, but to what end? Lots of acrobatics and tumbling, with trampolines built into the set. It just didn't do a lot for me.

Here is the song list for the show (not in order). It wasn't printed in the program:

"The Times They Are A-Changin'," "Highway 61 Revisited," "Don't Think Twice, It's All Right," "Just Like a Woman," "Like a Rolling Stone," "Everything Is Broken," "Desolation Row," "Rainy Day Women," "Mr. Tambourine Man," "Man Gave Names to All the Animals," "Masters of War," "Blowin' in the Wind," "Please, Mrs. Henry," "On a Night Like This," "Lay Lady Lay," "I'll Be Your Baby Tonight," "Simple Twist of Fate," "Summer Days," "Gotta Serve Somebody," "Not Dark Yet," "Knockin' on Heaven's Door," "Maggie's Farm," "I Believe in You," "Dignity," and "Forever Young."

To give you an idea of what you missed, you may find a couple of pictures here:
www.playbill.com/news/article/103635.html

And the TV commercial is here:
www.timestheyareachangin.com

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Cool Beans
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:34 AM

For a list of the songs in order, go here:
http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?id=423560
And click on "songs in this production," which appears near the top of the file.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 01:22 PM

Why did the lead mime artist/dancer (for he surely wasn't singing) pout and move like Elvis Presley? Did he confuse the two giants from before his time?

And why did some of the cast from Cats gyrate in the background with big balls representing "rolling stones" as if we have to see the physical representation of an idea to enjoy a song better? Choreography? No - this was a set of "actions to a song" fit for the kindergarten.

$100 to see this? And why wouldn't I buy Dylan's CDs instead?

sIr jOhn would have a word for it.

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: Desdemona
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:58 PM

Gee, and *I* thought it sounded like crap...!

~D

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:57 PM

It's a dance piece, George--and audience reactions may vary, they weren't excited at the performance JJ saw, but I am told that they brought down the house last night, which was, sadly enough, the last night--incidentally, though you may have missed it JJ, there was another woman in the ensemble--

Subject: RE: Dylan show bombs on Broadway
From: JJ
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 08:13 AM

Another woman in the ensemble? In my Playbill I see only Lisa Gajda among the seven dancers.

The other six are all men: Neil Haskell, Jason McDole, Charlie Neshyba-Hodges, Jonathan Nosan, John Selya and Ron Todorowski.

Final performances of shows, btw, always attract the show's dedicated fans, so the audience's reaction that night is atypical.