Why do our songs last so long ?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 07:59 PM

As Glenn said a year and a half ago:

"I don't know what stray cosmic particle caused this thread to resurrect, but it reminded me that I miss Azizi!"
I feel that too. What an incredibly engaged and engaging mudcatter. Here's to more "stray cosmic" events keeping threads in the present. Dear readers, newbies or oldies at this forum, a bit of perusing Azizi's posts will show a newcomer and remind an oldCatter of the richness of culture and scholarship lurking in this place.
keep on pickin'
dennis

---

I'm going to close this thread. It's been drawing a lot of Spam.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 04:41 AM

I would disagree with the point that all modern music is written to make money. Much obviously is. However there are plenty of musicians out there writing and playing songs for the fun of it. Making music because they enjoy making music. Art for art's sake. I myself know various good musicians, and some better than good, who write their own songs and tunes and have never made any real serious attempt to make money out of it. Even many professional musicians surely do not bow to the more commercial aspects?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 02:58 PM

I think the answer is: sub structure. Each traditional folk song had a folklore behind it which is not true of most of the popular music from 1800's to today which is primarily composed by single known authors/composers. There are still folk cultures today throughout the world which bear little resemblance to the popular music industry, still cultivating their musical heritage away from the narrow scope of main stream media.

Songs written specifically for commercial purposes which include popular music on the top ten stations, Broadway show songs, and some jazz tunes, the last maybe not for commercial gain exclusively, since I argue that jazz overall is an outgrowth of traditional folk music associated with African-American heritage, folk songs are not written to make money.
They become popular, particularly during the folk revival of the Sixties, by accident in association with popular singing groups such as the Weavers, Kingston Trio or P.P. and M.

To enable the necessary knowledge behind each song, investigation of the folklore, cultural framework, sociology, and ethnomusicological (phew, that's big word) is necessary.

In American folk music, two main currents exist, Appalachian or so-called Anglo-American styles and just as equally important, the contribution of African-American styles, both of which are independent of their commercial value in the music marketplace.

Rock and roll is a commercial venture though some form of it will inevitably survive in a folk context, though the songs will have been changed through aural transmission, as has been the case for early popular songs that wandered into the folk domain such as Stephen Foster's "Angelina Baker" morphing into "Angeline the Baker", a hoe down tune or a song such as
"Old Dan Tucker" written for the New York stage by Dan Emmett which became a folk tune with many new verses and used as a folk dance song.

Aside from the two major influences in American folk music, there are many smaller contributions by European, Asian and Latino sub-cultures that blend with the so-called
Anglo-American and Afro-American ones.

So, the songs last because of the potent background of cultural heritage by specific pockets of folk life that still are under the radar, even today, of the commercial music business.
Corporate musical imperialism of the commercially popular song will not erase them.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 02:27 PM

I don't know what stray cosmic particle caused this thread to resurrect, but it reminded me that I miss Azizi!
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 06:26 AM

Because they have lasted so long. You know the songs that have survived the test of time but don't know those that didn't. It's a bit like saying the Romans were wonderful builders judging by what's still standing (but ignores all the buildings that collapsed as soon as, or shortly after, completion).

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 07:54 PM

GUEST,thurg -,

Thanks for listing those tunes from that website. Here's the hyperlink: http://www.maryjanelamond.com/music.html

maryjanelamond.com also has links to her video clips, but for whatever reason, the videos wouldn't work for me.

Thanks again, thurg...

And btw, whatever did you mean by your comment that I of all people would understand the fact that you got a bit carried away posting that list?

:o)

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 07:00 PM

preservatives.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 11:51 AM

I was listening to a TV program yesterday as I was busy in the kitchen, on the subject of musical theory, and it started off with various songs using a pentatonic scale, and the presenter said that Humans are most likely genetically programmed to use that scale.

If a song is pentatonic it can be played on the black notes of a piano - presumably on the white notes of a harpsichord?

My own theory is that if a tune has a good melody and rythm, a few nice twiddly bits but not too difficult to remember or sing, with words which are relevant at the time and can be parodied or the tune nicked for a new set, and which generally gives opportunities for audience participation either with refrains, replies or echoes, then it is most likely to get taken up by those with a good ear and memory, and so spread and persist wherever people go. And it will most likely be pentatonic. If it is easy to harmonise with even better.

Anne

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 10:58 AM

Azizi -

I've probably gotten a little carried away here, but you of all people should understand that! Anyway, here are a number of samples from the Cape Breton singer Mary Jane Lamond, from: http://www.maryjanelamond.com/music.html ... No doubt there would have been a way of linking them, but I don't know what it is. My apologies! If you look at the track listings from the albums, you'll find these among them. I have put an NB in front of the songs that are done in a straight traditional manner. They are all some manner of call-and-response songs in Scottish Gaelic:


From "Storas":
[mp3] » Gur e mo rùn an Dòmhnallach (It is my love the MacDonald Man)
[mp3] » Bal na h-Aibhne Deas (Ball at Southwest Margaree)
          » Cumha Aoghnuis( Lament for Angus)
          » An Gaidheal am measg nan Gaidheal (Gael among the Lowlanders)

"Gaelic Songs of Cape Breton":
NB [mp3] » Illean Aigh
          » Cead Deireannach Nam Beann
          » A Fhleasgaich Vasail
          » Puirt Eos Peadair (Joe Peter's Tunes)
NB [mp3] » Oran a' Phiognaig
          » Am Braighe (lead singer a male in this one; in Cape Breton men participate in waulking, or milling as it's known in C.B.)
NB [mp3] » Nighean Dubh, Nighean Donn

"Lan Duil":
NB [mp3] » Ill ù ill ò illean's ò (may be some children singing here,maybe just child-like voices)

"Suas e!":
       » Oran Snìomh (Spinning Song)
[mp3] » Seinn O
          » Dòmhnall Mac 'ic
          » E Horò
NB [mp3] » Oran do Ghille a Chaidh a Bhàthadh
             (On the Drowning of a Young Man)

"Bho Thir Nan Croabh"
NB [mp3] » He Mo Leannan: Hey My Love
NB [mp3] » Cha Bhi Mi Buan: I Will Not Survive   
          » Ba, Ba, Ba, Mo leanabh: Hush, Hush, Hush My Little Baby (maybe a mistake in the titles here?)

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 10:24 AM

My first thought after hearing that Scottish waulking clip is how much it sounds like traditional African, and traditional Native American music. It's not just the call & response but also the percussive tune that reminds me of African and Native American music.
Perhaps other folks here might think that clip reminds them of completely different ethnic music.

I remember reading an article or book some time ago in which the author theorized that call & response was the beginning pattern of music for all people throughout the world. The author then took the position that one sign of increased civilization was when people left call & response behind and graduated to more complicated forms of musical construction...

While I didn't like [and still don't like that pre-civilization theory], maybe there's some truth in the author's belief that call & response songs are found throughout the world.

[It occurs to me that this conversation may be off topic of the thread's focus on "why our songs last so long". But maybe it's not off topic at all...and if it is maybe it's a sidebar conversation that would be of interest to other folks besides me].

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 10:09 AM

Thanks, thurg.

The sound clip's hyperlink is
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/sound/primit7.ra

**

The World Library of Folk and Primitive Music Volume 3 -Scotland Rounder CD 1743 is http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/r_index.htm.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 09:47 AM

Azizi -

"And lastly, Darowyn, you wrote that "...Call and response work songs are common in the Gaelic tradition for both male and female".

Would you please share an example or examples of those songs and/or online sources if any for information and examples of those songs?"


There doesn't seem to be much of this stuff on-line, but here's a brief clip of a group of women singing a "waulking" song in the Isle of Lewis in Scotland (waulking is part of the process of making woollen fabric, involves pounding wet wool onto a table - someone correct m if I have the details wrong): http://www.mustrad.org.uk/sound/primit7.ra ... The clip comes from: World Library of Folk and Primitive Music Volume 3 -Scotland Rounder CD 1743 at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/r_index.htm.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 05:31 AM

Schoolkids still sing coach trip songs, Mo - at least I heard some. But it's more than those songs. I am thinking more of some wassailing songs which get verses added and adapted to be more topical, for example.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 03:33 AM

George, you mean like the 'coach trip' songs, Quartermasters stores, and You'll never get to heaven? Does anyone sing these anymore, now that everyone has their own car?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 03:27 AM

You have a limited exposuer to "POP." Much of my material is 50 years old, even more is 100 to 150 years, and some is 200. They have commercial/pop composers/performers like Cole Porter, Steven Foster, Joe Young, Richard Rodgers, Jimmie Rodgers, Charlie Parker, Johnny Mercers, Jerome Kern, Oscar Hammerstein, Lorenz Hart, Benny Goodman, Ira Gershwin, Ray Henderson, Gerorge Gershwin, Lew Brown, Duke Ellington, Ray Charles, Count Basie, Fats Waller, Tommy Dorsey, Oscar Peterson, Ella Fitzgerald, Bobby Holiday, Miles Peterson, Miles Davis, Stan Getz, Nat King Cole, Louie Armstrong, John Coltrane, Count Basie....and outside of Foster this is not even the civil-war-era...and beyond.

The list for 1970 to present could be equally as long (Doors, Who, Animals, Turtles, Jimmy Dean, Jagger, Plant etc)....but it is a shorter time span.

You are painting apples and oranges with a mighty broad brush. It is a stupid question. You might as well ask, "Why do uncommon surnames like Gershwin and Rodgers appear more than once?"

Your view is probably skewed because all you know and play is "Folk" and you seldom step outside your "comfort zone."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:41 AM

Because they have so many verses. Some of the original folksongs haven't ever been sung all the way through... and even after many consecutive generations of constant singing... have barely scratched the surface of character development and background...
;^)ttr

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:35 AM

There is also another category of folk song, that is constantly revitalised, adapted and updated, and so can withstand the passage of time; I refer to the type of song where each (short) verse is self-contained, a little like some shanties, and allows the participants to make up their own verses to add to it. These new verses are usually topical, don't last long in folk memory themselves, yet the skeleton-song remains.

I know of such songs in the Cretan ("mantinada") tradition, and I am sure I have heard similar in the English and Irish traditions; they would be typically tavern-songs or used in celebration at a wedding or even at a wake; each freshly made-up verse extolling the virtues of the person or event celebrated.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:17 AM

Yes, yes I know that preview should be my friend, but instead I tend to cut, paste, and run.

:o)

Let me try that first question again:

Darowyn,
if I understood you correctly, in your 13 Nov 06 - 03:57 PM comment to you gave an example of a Senegalese student of yours use traditional African instruments as well as modern electronic instruments to create what you considered to be a traditional composition"

-snip-

And since I'm here, let me post this example from Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw-hZSoi_Y8

African Queen by 2Face Idibia

This song is a huge contemporary hit song from Nigeria, West Africa.

I posted that video hyperlink on Mudcat's thread.cfm?threadid=95631&messages=180#1865855 along with this comment:

"This is a very high quality video of a very catchy tune. The beat sounds like reggae to me, but it might be another genre of music. Imo, the singer has a great voice.

The video shows the traditional kora {or a kora like instument} being played as part of this song's accompaniment."
-snip-

Darowyn, am I correct in assuming that you would not categorize this song as a new/traditional song even though it's instrumentation includes a kora?

[Actually, I was just looking for an excuse to include this song on more threads. It has a catchy tune and positive lyrics.
Plus, I love its visuals]

;o))

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 01:58 AM

You're welcome, Soldier Boy.

****

Darowyn,
if I understood you correctly, in your 13 Nov 06 - 03:57 PM comment to you gave an example of a Senegalese student of yours use traditional African instruments as well as modern electronic instruments to create what you considered to be a aand Indian {East Indian?} students creating traditionaland a "perfect piece of traditional African music" .

You also wrote "I've seen classical Indian musicians use a Korg Triton in my own studio too."
-snip-

I'm assuming that a Korg Triton is some newfangled electronic or computerized system and not the name of some monster from the deep lagoon.

Btw, did you mean East Indian musicians? Not that it matters in the context of this question about classical musicians using
non-acoustic instruments or equipment [if that is the right word] to create traditional or traditional-like compositions.

And lastly, Darowyn, you wrote that "...Call and response work songs are common in the Gaelic tradition for both male and female".

Would you please share an example or examples of those songs and/or online sources if any for information and examples of those songs?

Thank you!

Azizi

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:22 PM

And thank you Azizi for your PM to show me how to do it. Much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 09:27 PM

Thank you Azizi. I can't do that techno blue-clickerty stuff.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:52 PM

Charlie, did you make any audio tapes or write down any of the Ethiopian work songs that you heard during your Peace Corp experience in the 1960s?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:45 PM

Here's the link to the thread that Soldier boy referred to:

So what is 'TRADITIONAL'Folk Music ?"

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:43 PM

To "good melody and good rhyme" I would add a "good story", one that you remember long after you've forgotten the words of the verses!

Some of the work chants that were passed on from generation to generation disappeared when the task became obsolete. While many sea shanties are still song, many more evaporated before anyone thought to write them down. Others such as "What Do You Do with a Drunken Sailor" persist without the march around the capstan, whatever a capstan might be!

I do wonder if some of the agricultural work chants I heard while in the Peace Corps in Ethiopia in the 1960's are still alive in the fields, or whether they have been replaced by the roar of the John Deer tractor or its Asian equivalent. Maybe when I return for a visit I should try out a translation of "The Field Behind the Plow."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:39 PM

I have enjoyed reading this thread. It contains a lot of good down to earth common sense.

There is another thread on the same Mudcat page as this thread titled "So what is 'TRADITIONAL'Folk Music ?" which contains some very similar lines of discussion found here.
You might like to plough through it to see what I mean and make your very valuable contributions there as well.
I also hope that it will help to inform and add to the discussions posted here.

A sort of mutually beneficial cross-fertilisation of ideas I guess (hope).

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:49 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:57 PM

Having spent some time with West African musicians over the past few years, I can testify to the constant refreshing of the tradition from many sources.
A Senegalese student of mine recorded a set of songs in Dacca within the Griot tradition, using traditional African instruments, Halam, Kora, Djembe, Fender Precision Bass, Korg Triton Synth, and the flute solo was synthesized using a Midi guitar.
The result- a perfect piece of traditional African music.
A visitor to Africa today would find Rap and Reggae everywhere. Both genres have African precursors, but it is a re-import on an even greater scale than when the British Invasion of the sixties brought the blues back to the USA.
I've seen classical Indian musicians use a Korg Triton in my own studio too.
On another point, Call and response work songs are common in the Gaelic tradition for both male and female tasks.
Finally to answer the question that heads the thread,
It's the survival of the fittest. Songs evolve or become extinct according to how effective they are in the society of the day.
Darwinism exemplified!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:16 PM

sorry about that repeated "on a roll" comment. And btw, I prefer whole wheat bread and hold the mayonnaise please...

Also, sorry about the formatting of that cheer.

:o)

And thurg's comment about African traditions being constantly revitalized, revised and expanded reinforces my comment about the new form of call & response cheers. Btw. the earliest example of this playground rhyming activity that I've found was in a mid 1970s field recording of Washington DC Black girls.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:12 PM

Why shouldn't they last long?

You can replace the word "songs" with other items - drawings, books, sculpture, etc.   Songs do not last longer than anything else.

If I say "Mona Lisa" I am sure 99.9% of you reading this can picture the painting in your mind. If I say "Card Players" by Paul Cezanne, I would bet that fewer than half of you would recall this from memory or even know of its existence. Both paintings are still around, one is more famous, but both are great works of art.

Songs are the same. It doesn't matter what culture, age or even quality. There are many different factors that keep a song in public perception.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:10 PM

And, since I'm on a roll, let me also share this longest quote about call & response music:

Also, {since I'm on a roll}, I'd like to share this long excerpt from
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Call_and_response_(music)

"In West African cultures, call and response is a pervasive pattern of democratic participation -- in public gatherings in the discussion of civic affairs, in religious rituals, as well as in vocal and instrumental musical expression. It is this tradition that African bondsmen and women brought with them to the New World and which has been transmitted over the centuries in various forms of cultural expression -- in religious observance; public gatherings; sporting events; even in children's rhymes; and, most notably, in African-American music in its myriad forms and descendents including: gospel, blues, rhythm and blues, jazz and jazz extensions.

These forms also possibly influenced the evolution of call and response in the ancient Indian Classical Music technique of Jugalbandi.

Call and response is likewise widely present in other parts of the Americas touched by the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Known under the Spanish term coro-pregon, it can be found in Afro-Latin music based on religious chants.

Folk music
It is common in folk traditions of choral singing of many peoples, especially in African musical cultures. In the West, it is most readily seen in the sea shanty, African-American work songs, and the dance-songs of various European countries including France (particularly Brittany) and the Faeroe Islands.

Classical music
In classical European music it is known as antiphony.

Popular music
The phenomenon of call and response is pervasive in modern Western popular music, as well, largely because Western music has been so heavily shaped by African contributions. Cross-over rhythm and blues, rock 'n' roll, and rock music exhibit call-and-response characteristics, as well. One example is The Who's song, My Generation."
-snip-

The entire comment can be found at http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Call_and_response_(music)

****
"Call & Response" is a living tradition. Although this is definitely off topic, as a matter of information, the children's performance activity that I've named "foot stomping cheers" uses a modified form of call & response which I have termed "group/consecutive soloists" pattern. The group voice always starts off the cheers. The soloist responds to the groups' question. The cheer may 'end' with the soloist statement or it may end with the group voice. However, a signature of this type of cheer is that the cheer is repeated again and again until every member of that informal group has a chance to be the soloist.

Here's an example of the text of a foot stomping cheer from the mid 1980s, Pittsburgh, Pa; African American girls {about 8-12 years old}, compliments of my daughter and her friends:

GET DOWN
All:      I saida D-O-W-N.
          That's the way we get down.
          D-O-W-N
          That's the way we get down.
Group:    Hey, Danielle.
Danielle: What?
Group:    Show us how you get down.
Danielle: No way.
Group:    Show us how you get down.
Danielle: Okay.
          I said D-O-W-N
          And that's the way.
          That's the way.
          That's the way.
          I get down.
Group:    She saida
          D-O-W-N
          And that's the way.
          That's the way.
          That's the way.
          she gets down.

{Repeat the entire cheer with the next soloist, and continue repeating from the beginning without pausing until everyone has a turn as soloist.}

Cheers are recited with drama and attitude while performing a syncopated syncronized routine made with bass sounding foot stomps, and {individual} handclaps. Sometimes body patting also is added to the mix. This particular cheer is reminiscent of "let me see your motion} children's ring {circle} games.

For more information & examples about foot stomping cheers, your welcome to visit this page of my website:

http://www.cocojams.com/street_cheers_example%200104.htm

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 02:59 PM

I would think that one of the difficulties in dating African musical traditions in the U.S. would be the probablity that African traditions were being constantly revitalized, revised and expanded by new arrivals from Africa for as long as the slave trade was in operation, whether legally or illegally. "Pure" African music heard in the U.S. in, say, 1880, might have survived in the U.S. for two hundred years, or it might have survived for a mere thirty years or less.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 02:45 PM

GUEST,Jack Campin,

I found your comments on Iranian chanting during political demonstrations to be very interesting. I'd love to know more.

I'd also love to be able to answer the question you directed to me about the possible survival of African American music from the 18th century {or even earlier for that matter-since the first enslaved Africans came to the USA in 1619}. However, answering that question is far beyond my capability.

That said, I'm gonna try to answer it anyhow.

:o}

I believe that the religious chants of the Nigerian {Yoruba}, Benin religion of Orisha Vodoun {erroneously called Vodoo}have survived for 200 years plus in the United States {and in the Caribbean, and Brazil}. For an example of such a chant, see this Youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYxjiYlbFiU

-snip-

With regard to secular music, rather than the lyrics and tunes of particular songs surviving, I think that one can point with a great deal of assurance to the survival of the way songs are structured, the way particular musical instruments are played, the types of body stance and body movements that are used in dancing, and the way other performance activities occur.

See this quote about the survival of African musical traditions in the United States:

"The record shows that African musical traditions survived in some places. Occasional reports from travelers, tutors, and British officers mention musical practices in the rural South that clearly had African origins. African traditions flourished in well-documented public celebrations by slaves on election days and Pentecost in the North, and weekly at Congo Square in New Orleans."

http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/winter02-03/music.cfm

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Shaneo
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 10:46 AM

The sentiments expressed in the lyrics of folk songs are thing we really care about ,Songs like ''Joe Hill'' or ''Farewell My Green Valleys'' for example. When I sing these songs I go to that place in the song, it's the 'caring' about the song that keeps it alive,

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 10:28 AM

One of the most effective call/response chants I've ever heard was when I was on a political demonstration where most of the participants were Iranians - much faster, more energetic, and more textually complex than the usual British "What do we want?" "When do we want it?" number. I have occasionally heard this in newsreel footage of demos from other parts of the Middle East, and there is something similar in some kinds of Arabic folk music where voice and instruments alternate. So maybe sailors from the Persian Gulf could have helped contribute this technique to the shanty tradition?

A question for Azizi: how far back can we trace African-American songs, with real evidence? Is there anything which we *know* has survived in Afro-American oral tradition with little change to either words or melody from 200 years ago or more, and which didn't originate from anything European?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: MMario
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 10:22 AM

just another comment on the "call and response" bit - while not quite the same thing, you will frequently find audiences singing the "burden" lines of ballads.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 10:11 AM

Because floor singers are always told "three songs" rather than "ten minutes" ;-)

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 07:42 AM

Genie - I liked it

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,fidjit
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 07:33 AM

Something to do with the "time warp" we are in.

Chas

Actually it's 'cos we like them.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 11:10 PM

"Why do our songs last so long ?"

Maybe because we're afraid whenever we actually finish the last verse they'll make us get off the stage?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 06:12 PM

"RE: Why do our songs last so long ?"

Ever since Dylan broke the three-minute-single barrier with "Like a Rolling Stone" back in the Sixties . . . .

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 06:11 PM

There are hundreds of chanteys and work-songs in the Anglo tradition built on call and response Truen enough - but shanties weren't exclusively or even predominantly Anglo. Sailors came in all colours and nationalities, and the shanties moved between ships where all kind of languages were spoken. And black shantymen were fairly common I believe.
.....................
Folksongs are like yogurt - that's certainly an interesting simile.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 05:34 PM

leneeia beat me to the main point.
Q: Why do folk songs last so long?
A: Maybe they don't. We just don't know the ones that didn't.


Also, maybe they're more like yogurt than like cottage cheese.   Yogurt doesn't "spoil" nearly as quickly because it's still alive.   Maybe that means folk music is full of active cultures (transforming itself daily). Maybe it means it's crawling with microbes. Take your pick. ;)

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: PSzymeczek
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 05:06 PM

"Maybe Lightfoot's 'Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald' (How long was that song?)."

Officially, Naemanson, 6 minutes, 28 seconds.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 03:23 PM

Why do they last so long and pop songs don't?
Because any good pop song will be adopted and sung in folk clubs and become a folk song, the rest forgotten.
Anyway lots of pop songs from the 60s have been recycled more recently.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 02:17 PM

Why do they last so long? Because they slow down when we sing them.

"How we love to sing of the open sea, as the sailors used to do"
"But we find each time that we sing these songs, they take longer to get through".......

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 01:48 PM

Just for the "record", in my 11 Nov 06 - 09:07 AM I made reference to European/European American ballads not having a built in structure for audience participation such as is the case with African American and other African Diaspora folk songs which are use call & response patterns.

Although it seems that I was incorrect in thinking that it's the norm for White audiences at folk concerts to sit back, listen, and not join in with a performer or performers, nowhere in my post did I say that African Americans and other Black people were the only folks to use the call & response pattern.

While it is a matter of documentation that call & response is a signature pattern of Black music & song, that does not mean that Black folks were {are} the only folks to have used or to currently use such a pattern. As some here have mentioned, a case in point is the composition of shanties. Of course, some ship crews were interracial {Black/non-Black} which-in my opinion-probably contributed to the use of call & response patterns for shanties. However, it is more than possible that White folks could have used call & response patterns to compose songs without any contact with or imitation of Black folks.

I recognize that this discussion about the use of call & response patterns is a minor sidebar to the main discussion on this thread. However, I feel it is important to clarify my position about this point.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:09 PM

OK then. Because we LIKE them.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:06 PM

no, McMullen...not that simple. If it were that simple, we wouldn't have so much fun debating it.

Besides...there are many old, trad songs that are NOT very good.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: McMullen
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:56 AM

because there good, simple as

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:54 AM

A bunch of people have already said most of what I would:

"good songs last"
"topics of regular concern to regular people"
"often tweaked & improved so that they are even better than when 'new'"
"tunes that are 'reasonably' easy to sing and remember"


But the issue of when they BECOME folk is harder. Effsee makes a certain kind of point. The songs (s)he refers to are regularly sung by
people who are deep into the 'folk' tradition.....still, it is common in many areas to have a semi-official definition of what it means to be included. (Antique autos have VERY precise limits...and regular antiques are pretty narrowly defined. Likewise, ethnic foods lose their status if changed or 'adapted' too freely.)

"Sammy's Bar" is a song which has many of the characteristics which 'probably' will in time integrate it into full "folk" status, and there are few arguments when hearing it at a gathering of 'folk'. ...Still, most of those who sing it do know who the author was and do not alter the tune or words much. When it is old enough that it is regularly collected in oral tradition, and sung by many who have no idea of the author...and perhaps altered a bit....it will have moved beyond that 'provisional' status.
It's not a clear or hard & fast rule, but 50+ years is a common age when songs have 'settled' into the corpus....IF they retain most of the other characteristics. (I would suggest that "Itsy-Bitsy, Teeny-Weenie, Yellow Polka-Dot Bikini" will NOT make it...no matter how old it gets..*grin*....we may sing it forever, but as a 'novelty' song.)

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:36 AM

There are hundreds of chanteys and work-songs in the Angl o tradition built on call and response, Aziz. One of the best known is "Haul Away, Joe". Another is "Hullabaloo-Belay". A faster-haul chanty is "Whoop Jamboree".

There's nothing about them of the "sit back and listen" style.

A

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: stallion
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:34 AM

I think "songs what folk sing" are what it is really about. As everyone learnt to read and write the oral tradition was bound to atrophy, because memory no longer had the "exercise" it needed, the advent of recorded music was another nail in the coffin. Numerous visionaries saw it coming and collected the songs for posterity. I think the human race, by and large, like to sing in communities, family, church, glee clubs, pub, whatever, it contributes to a "feel good factor" and in numbers the odd bum note or six isn't spotted. So, songs like Black Velvet Band and Wild Rover endured because it maybe the only song non officionados of folk know and are desperate to join in, to be included, probably a product of the decline in the oral tradition or perhaps the after glow of the oral tradition. In so far as different cultural slants go, whilst the music maybe different, although it has been pointed out that African/American styles have some resonance with Shanty singing and also it has been suggested that there may be a link with the old scottish traditional "kirk" choirs, it has to be said that the bottom line is that people like to sing together and folk songs are what folk sing whatever the genre, people will still be singing "Yesterday" in fifty years time, well at least the first few lines anyway and the officionados will still be curators of the music and the officionados will keep the music alive

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:01 AM

It's not just ' good music ' it's great music, and unlike so called pop music, it doesn't have a shelf life, which is why it will last forever.

eric

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Effsee
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:55 PM

"there aren't any folk songs less than 50 years old.

"Skippers in the wardroom drinkin' gin"

"I went down to Sammy's Bar"

"Don't mind the waves or the rolling sea"

"Sorrow is my stock in trade....."

Need I go on?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:17 PM

Why do they last? Because there are still some people who love them. They will last for as long as we, and our descendants, make them last.

Why are they so long? Because in the old days people did not have a problem with attention span. They were not inundated with distractions. It was not polite to interrupt other people. People were aware of that. When someone started a story, in verse or song, they were allowed to continue. And people wanted to hear the end.

Today, if a song is longer than three minutes nobody wants to hear it. Look at the uproar when Don MacLean released 'American Pie'! Nobody would believe a song could last that long and be a hit. How many long songs have been released since 1971 that have been as long? Maybe Lightfoot's 'Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald' (How long was that song?).

Modern humans don't take time to listen to music anymore. Most people just use it to fill in the background with pleasing rhythms and harmonies and most don't know the words.

Many popular songs don't even have enough words to fill a thimble. A good folk song is wordy. The rhyme scheme is complex. And the story appeals. Modern people don't want to be bothered.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:59 PM

I think the question is based on several faulty premises. First, HAVE they lasted, in terms of being widely popular? No, they haven't. There aren't that many folk songs that young people do know, and those aren't really the best (in terms of quality) but rather those which their mothers sang to them in early childhood, or which they sang on the playground skipping rope, or which they learned at summer camp. People seldom sing folk songs while they work, or to amuse themselves. They are more likely to switch on the radio or put on a rock CD and sing along with that - if they sing at all. WE make them last, but we really have to work at it. Many that we now sing were ones that people pretty much stopped singing until revivalists came along.

Second, there is the implication that folk songs will continue to last. But the commercialization of the music world, and copyright control of modern "folk" material has already sounded the death knell for folk music. Like classical music, it will continue to survive among small pockets of people who make it a priority, but among the population as a whole, it's already a novelty, a dead issue, only subject to periodic resurgence of interest among the masses.

Third, there is the presumption that the rock music of today will not last. This I partly agree with and partly disagree with. There are several aspects of the commercialization of rock which diminishes the shelf life of individual songs: They were written to be performed by professional groups. The melodies and lyrics are less important than the total piece as a performance, including pyrotechnic visuals; most can't satisfyingly be duplicated by amateurs, much less by individuals. And it is contrary to the interests of corporations (which control dissemination via radio and concerts) to have the public be satisfied with old stuff when they want people to constantly buy new stuff. So they actively encourage young people to turn up their noses at anything which they've already bought.

But there are still songs from virtually every rock period that will persist. As time marches on, their popularity will quickly fade, just as most folk songs we know only date back about 50-200 years, and represent only a small fraction of all the songs that were written during that period. You can think of musical interest tapering off like nuclear radiation, in a sort of logarithmic progression. The folk songs we think of as lasting are just the relative few which survived this natural tapering.

The other clue about lasting is inherent in the term "traditional" - some songs (notably hymns and Christmas carols) have become part of our social tradition, and so get revisited year after year. "Auld lang syne", as a song, is hardly among the best, but because of its association with New Year celebrations, it will persist until some other song takes its place. And even there, only one verse can really be said to have lasted.

Other songs last because of some notable phrase or context which has grabbed the public attention, and which gets them continually recycled in the public mind. Think of "Stand By Your Man" and "Imagine". The songs most likely to survive for coming generations will be those which have a phrase or message which Madison Avenue can easily exploit to sell a diversity of products. When Gen-2020ers think of folk music, they'll probably be thinking of the Oscar Meyer Wiener song, while they hear the anti-consumerist anthem "Money" recycled yet again in the background of a luxury hovercar commercial.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 06:56 PM

Imo, some responses to the question "why our songs last so long?" are the same as some responses to the question "what makes a song good?".

I googled that last question and found what I consider to be an interesting discussion at this non-folk music forum:
http://homerecording.com/bbs/archive/index.php/t-23342.html

Maybe some folks here will also find that discussion interesting-and on topic for this thread.

Here's some excerpts from that forum:

"It takes great metaphors, lyrically. It takes a memorable and catchy chorus. It takes dynamics or some kind of tension and release or contrast. And it takes some element of surprise, wether harmonically, structurally, or stylistically. And I know it must take many more things which I can't quantify."
-Aaron Cheney

**

"A good tune is a good tune....is a good tune."
-RockinRobert

**
"A good song makes people feel something."
-Jvasey

**
"A good song does not require any effort to listen to it."
-CyanJaguar

**
"Personally, I think what makes a good song, is writing material that everyone can relate to...it's being able to write material that has a hook, that everybody can sing along to, and anybody can relate to...that's what I think makes a great song."
-Tim Brown

**
I believe a great song often has an element that contains, and transcends, the precise experience of the songwriter.
-Fab4ever

**
"the greatest songs are those with a universality.
- Fab4ever

**
"If it still makes you cry after the 238th time that you've played it, then it's probably a good song."
-LI Slim

**
...great music stands the test of time...
-Vease

-snip-

etc. etc etc.

In addition to agreeing with those opinions I cited, with regards to folk music [and other genres of music] I think that someone save the music {by putting in print and it being recorded} is a big factor as to why a particular good song lasts so long. Thanks to collectors, we have some but not all of the good songs that were sung centuries ago. Also, I think a song lasts because someone eventually promoted the song. Perhaps it was picked up and sung by someone who became famous or was famous when he or she sung it, and then was associated with that famous person. Or perhaps it was included in some hit musical or show.

Furthermore, imo, a song lasts when that song's words remain understandable [meaning their meaning of its lyrics haven't changed too much, the references mentioned in the song are still known, and their words are still "politically" correct.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

****

Off topic, thanks GUEST,Richard and Bert for your comments on my behalf. I very much appreciate them.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Grab
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 06:15 PM

Dead right, McGrath. Broadsheets were the pop music of their day - light, fluffy and no real substance to them. Most of them never did get remembered. Then there's classical - more like the rock music of its day for being technical and everything. A lot of that's been around a while. More recently, jazz filled both roles, with some stuff staying around and some stuff forgotten (for all that it may be recorded on some record that no-one ever plays).

Shaneo, what you're basically saying is "Isn't it funny that songs from 40 years ago or less aren't as old as those ones from 100 years ago?" To which I'm afraid the only suitable answer is, "well, DUH!!!!" ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:49 PM

With pop music[the good stuff] it has a life span of no more then 40 years or so , and then it's heard no more.

I suspect there are a good few songs that won't be true of. There are plenty of songs from the pop music of a hundred years ago and more which are very much alive still - as indicated by the fact that if you start singing them today with an adult crowd people will know them and join in the chorus (teenagers tend to get embarrassed to admit knowing them, but they do know them often enough).

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:17 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:11 PM

"Why do our songs last so long ?"

Because they are good.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:04 PM

Yeah Bev and Jerry...........Not to put too fine a point on it but there aren't any folk songs less than 50 years old. Maybe its 40 or 60 or 35 or 75.....I dunno'.......But to be a folk song the firsat requirement is that it is taken up by others and the second is that it has to withstand the test of time. There are no "new" folk songs. Some new songs may become folk songs but only those two things above can tell us. You can't "create" or write a folk song, it creates itself.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:46 PM

Anyone who was at the Getaway last weekend will know that European and European-American folk music is not for sitting back and listening to.

To hear up to 100 voices raised in harmony, singing old familiar songs is the only explanation that is needed for why this music has lasted so long.

I have been to very few song circles/folk concerts where the audience does not participate. That is what makes this the music I love.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:33 PM

Folk songs have been around so long simply because people like 'em.

A list of all known English language folk songs would only contain hundreds or perhaps a few thousand. Even the DT has only about ten thousand and many of them are modern songs. Think how many songs must have been composed in the last few hundered years that are completely unknown today. In short, the popular and well liked songs survive while the rest don't.

Of the forty or so songs that we've written, only two (that we know of) have been "good enough" that other people have learned and sung them.

Also, pop songs tend to remain unchanged from their first recorded form while folk songs are continuously changing. The changes that are good (ie well-liked) stick and the others don't. So, good folk songs have been polished over time to become even better.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 02:03 PM

Some have been around a long time because they are good enough to have survived.

There are others that were 'collected' and have been preserved like pickled onions.

Hey, GUEST Nellie Clatt, one of the things we like about Mudcat is that we can bring our own opinions and our own cultural heritage into discussions. Nobody complains if I put a Cockney slant to a message or if Skarpi tell us something about Iceland.

So tell us something about yourself intead of criticizing others.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 11:34 AM

I suspect that they've lasted so long - are held in memory so long - because they address our concerns, and become a way of talking to ourselves. And because they work. Ballads that reconfigure archetypal situations have a way of being recalled. Same with love songs, and broadside tales of murder and hanging; they allow us to work through the various theatres of our fears and aggressions and live to sing the song again.

And melodies are a miraculous consolation all by themselves. When they support words we like, we remember them on purpose. I'm heading off to work today with a song in my head that should last me through the worst moments that retail can conjure.

Primitive stuff perhaps, but we're still pretty primitive. Look what happens when someone from another tribe wanders in! Or, more exactly, when one of us reminds the rest of us that her tribal memories are different from ours. Tough, and smart, and thoughtful, Azizi is one of my favorites, when I venture into Mudtown.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:22 AM

Oops!

"Bet" does not mean "Black Entertainment Television"

;o}

It's a typo for "Best".

But I couldn't resist adding another reference to Black "culture"
{and with regards to BET, imo, "culture" is not really the operative word}

:o)

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:03 AM

Nellie, ditto what Wesley said.

However, when I don't consider race to be a factor in a discussion, I don't refer to race. And, no, I'm not going to cite examples when I haven't mentioned my race and/or other folks' race in various threads that I've started or otherwise posted on. If you really want to know which threads those have been, you can click on my name and check out my posting record.

Bet wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:00 AM

And there is the ear worm factor. I havn't been able to get "The Long Black Veil" out of my head all morning.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:53 AM

First of all, there are many folk songs which did not last.
----------
I believe that the songs which did last have two characteristics: good melody and good rhyme. Melody is indefinable, but when I think about it, I guess you could define it as that which makes a sequence of notes memorable.

And it is amazing the way rhyme makes words easy to remember. Consider the baloney that people perpetuate (such as "no pain, no gain") merely because the words rhyme.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:49 AM

Nellie - as a WASP I can only add a WASP's viewpoint to these threads. As an African-American I can only expect {and hope} that Azizi will continue to add an African-American viewpoint to her posts. There is no escaping the influence that Africans have had on "our" folk music.

So why do you think these songs have lasted so long?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Shaneo
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:43 AM

Expand all you like Azizi , and yes I was referring the length of time the songs have been around as opposed to the song length of verses.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,Captain Pugwash
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:36 AM

Our Enlish and european sea shanty songs have a ' call and response '
it's nor just an African thing.

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,Nellie Clatt
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:33 AM

Azizi, why do turn every threa into a ' black ' or ' African ' subject
when it is not so ?

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:09 AM

Sorry,-I know preview should be my friend-here's a correction to my post:

"were {are} performed by a performer {or performers} and the audience's role is largely to sit back and listen?"

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:07 AM

Hello, Shaneo. I just saw your name on another thread. If you are new to Mudcat, welcome!

When I read this thread title, I thought it referred to the length a song itself-such as the length of English ballads which have verse upon verse upon verse etc etc etc. My first thought was that the reason why these folk songs had that textual form is because they were composed to be sung by a single person-as opposed to a married person ;0)

-sorry I couldn't resist that-

But if by "our folk songs" you're referring to the European and European American folk ballads, isn't it true that these songs were {are} performed by a performer {or performer} and the audience's role is largely to sit back and listen?

I contrast this with the textual structure of African American {and other African Diaspora} folk songs whose call & response patterns have a built in expectation that audiences will participate. Furthermore, the short verses and repeated lines in African American folk music {which should also be considered "our" folk music-at least if you broaden your definition as to who "our" includes} also lend themselves to audience participation.

Als, with regard to African American folk music {in the context of this thread I mean secular slave songs & spirituals}, the music was often open ended-verses could be composed on the spot and added to the song and verses from other songs could also be added to the songs thus helping the song to "last so long".

FWIW, I think that African American dance songs from slavery that have become part of the American folk song genre, and other American dance songs were open ended because people wanted to get their dance on". The longer the song, the more time they could spend dancing.

Also, with regards to spirituals and songs used during Shout religious worship {Shout=men & women walking in counter clockwise circles while repeatedly singing the words of a religous song}, the reason why the song "lasts so long" was to help worshippers reach a certain state of worship which some might rightly or wrongly consider a trance state which after all just means a different {if not elevated} state of consciousness.

And yes, Shaneo, I gather that you meant by your title and initial post that this thread would be a discussion on the continuity of certain folks song, and not the structural composition of those or other songs, but I hope you don't mind me expanding the scope of the discussion.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:24 AM

Part of the reason is that people are over-exposed to the pop songs, on radio, etc., whereas for most people, the only time they hear folk music is when they attend a live performance. So while a performer may be sick of a song like Black Velvet Band, in the general public there are many people who have never heard it, and if they do happen to hear it, they'll love it ... (go, figger) ...

Subject: Why do our songs last so long ?
From: Shaneo
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:15 AM

So why does our folk music last as long as it does , I have being through my set list and most of the songs are at least 50 years old , some as old as 200 years,
Is it because of the way they are written ? or is it because we have such a passion for them to keep them alive that we just keep singing them.
With pop music[the good stuff] it has a life span of no more then 40 years or so , and then it's heard no more.