Origins/Info: Tallow Candles

Subject: Folk Process: Tallow Candles
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:29 PM

I need information about the song Tallow Candles. How old, where it comes from, it's relationship to Sam Hall.

A friend is doing a paper on folk process and this song was chosen as the model.

Thanks in advance. More thanks to come I'm sure.

Don

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:56 PM

I got the version in the DT from the singing of Jacqui and Bridie in the early 1970s. I don't know where they got it. Edmund (CET) sings a variant that you/your friend may want to see. I'll PM Edmund and ask him to post it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 06:30 PM

Song in DT

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:46 PM

Thanks Foolstroupe.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:56 PM

In the intructions, to prepare a "hand of glory" to discover "hiden-treasure"....

....the tallow rendered from the flesh of a gibboted felon is required.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 11:06 PM

I went up the Tyburn Hill, in a cart

The man is a fellon, and sentenced under British Law, of the time, to be hung.

Read about "hand of glory" and "Tyburn Hill" "human tallow" fascinating morbid stuff.

I might be gone for another week and your thread "will die"....you need to feed yourself...if you have the interest...continue to post your "discoveries" to this thread.

Sincerely,
Garboyle

There is a lovely pub across (west) of Tyburn Cross (fitted out with macbre stuff) there is also a profiled professy in front of the church nearby.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Susan of DT
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:14 AM

See also DT #420 for three more relative songs and Captain Kidd

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Les from Hull
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:16 PM

The Hand of Glory reference is interesting. A Hand of Glory (prepared from fat from a convicted and hung felon) was like a hand shaped candle with five wicks. If you lit one you could burgle a house at night and the occupants would sleep, no matter how much noise you made.

But the reference to 'tallow candles hanging down' may just be a reference to how much tallow candles look like hanged people because they are hung up in a similar way. They were prepared by fastening a number of wicks to a framework and then dipped repeatedly in tallow.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Fliss
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:04 PM

If you want to see 'tallow' candles still being made. Visit Blists Hill Museum in the Ironbridge Gorge. My partner Tony is working in the Candle Factory at present as the Brickworks is closed over the winter months.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:25 PM

Here
is a picture of candles being dipped - you may need to scroll right and down to get the whole sequence.

Tallow stinks like almost nothing on earth when being rendered - that might help with the 'hanged men' analogy.

LTS

Subject: Lyr Add: SAM HALL
From: CET
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:32 PM

I don't think my version will help much on the original topic of this thread, which is the relationship of Tallow Candles to Sam Hall. In fact, I had never even heard of the song Tallow Candles until I saw this thread. However, as requested, here goes:
^^
Oh, my name it is Sam Hall, chimney sweep, chimney sweep,
Oh, my name it is Sam Hall, chimney sweep
Oh, my name it is Sam Hall and I've robbed both great and small
And my neck shall pay for all when I die, when I die
And my neck shall pay for all when I die.

I have twenty pounds in store, that's not all, that's not all
I have twenty pounds in store, that's not all
I have twenty pounds in store, and I'll rob for twenty more
For the rich must help the poor, so must I, so must I
For the rich must help the poor, so must I

I have candles, lily white, hanging high, hanging high
I have candles, lily white, hanging high
I have candles, lily white and I stole them all by night
They shall fill my room with light till I die, till I die
They shall fill my room with light, till I die

They tell me that in jail I'll go dry, I'll go dry
They tell me that in jail I'll go dry
They tell me that in jail I shall drink no more small ale
But be hanged if e'er I fail, till I die, till I die
But be hanged if e'er I fail, till I die

When I went to Tyburn Hill in a cart, in a cart
When I went to Tyburn Hill in a cart
When I went to Tyburn Hill, then I stopped to make my will,
For the best of friends must part, so must I, so must I
For the best of friends must part, so must I

Up the ladder I did grope, that's no joke, that's no joke
Up the ladder I did grope, that's no joke
Up the ladder I did grope, then the hangman pulled the rope
And it's ne'er a word I spoke tumbling down, tumbling down
And it's ne'er a word I spoke tumbling down

Oh, my name it is Sam Hall, chimney sweep, chimney sweep
Oh, my name it is Sam Hall, chimney sweep
Oh, my name it is Sam Hall, and I hate you one and all
You're a bunch of beggars all, damn your eyes, damn your eyes
You're a bunch of beggars all, damn your eyes.

This song is fairly well known at sing arounds, and I have heard it recorded by a couple of groups. I first heard it at a sing around organized by the Cuckoo's Nest Folk Club in London, Ontario c. 1980-1982 and learned it immediately. I was singing it for several years before I came across verses 3 and 4 above in Peter Kennedy's Folk Songs of Britain and Ireland, under the title "Jack Hall", not Sam Hall. I loved the images of white candles burning in the condemned man's cell and drinking no more small ale. I have found on a couple of occasions that people joining in on the song were familiar with all the other verses, but not with the candles and beer verses. Verses 3 and 4 above are verses 2 and 5 respectively in Peter Kennedy's "Jack Hall."

Peter Kennedy's book would be a good source to check. He lists several references for this song, including an article by Bronson in the California Folklore Quarterly: 1942, vol. I, pp. 47-64.

Thanks for starting this thread. Sam Hall is my favourite song so I will have to learn more about Tallow Candles.

Edmund

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:45 PM

Oh dear. My mind was in the gutter. I was expecting that one about the shipwreck and the convent.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: CET
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 09:26 PM

I should have added that Peter Kennedy recorded the version in his book from Jack Endacott, in Chagford, Devon in 1954.

A curious fact that I had not realized was that Jack (or Sam) Hall was hanged at Tyburn in 1701, the same year that Captain Kidd was hanged in chains at Execution Dock, Wapping, and that Admiral Benbow was wounded in battle the following year. Perhaps that is some explanation for the fact that these three songs are so closely related.

Edmund

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Susan of DT
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 09:57 PM

Don - Tallow Candles is usually considered the more unusual variant, but since you are in Syracuse, you probably learned the one I did (and which I entered in the DT).

Edmund - I sang Tallow Candles for you at the Getaway a year or two ago when I saw your version in your notebook.

Here are 8 relatives to the song:
Sam Small
Another Sam Small
Nobby Hall
Captain Kidd
Capt Robert Kidd
Van Gogh
Wondrous Love
Aiken Drum

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 09:29 AM

I suppose that in England in the early 18th century stealing candles could get you hanged, so maybe it was an incidental detail from a real case?

The only incident of candle stealing I know of was my Jewish ex-girlfriend who once decorated her flat with candles she'd nicked from a Catholic cathedral at Christmas. Back in Ballad Times that could have been the start of a story that would make "Little Sir Hugh" look charming.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Susan of DT
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 04:17 PM

He also stole 20 oxen in the Tallow Candles version. Hmm, difficult to hide, maybe Edmunds version with 20 pounds makes more sense than 20 ox.

Don - is this stuff helpful to your friend?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:03 AM

Are tallow candles white?
White candles suggests something more refined than tallow to me (but what do I know? Not a lot)
Just goes to show that something we take for granted, like light, was valued in the past.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Grab
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 04:56 AM

Is that all they have for Nobby Hall?! I can do you a few more verses if you want.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 06:00 AM

Grab - yes we would like more verses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: DonMeixner
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 11:33 AM

Susan,

Probably, It's for Hanita.

Don

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 12:23 PM

Interesting what Edmund said about the timing. I wounder if the same broadside publisher produced several of these related somgs (same author?) in 1701. Some people here are good at tracing broadsides. Maybe someone will look these up for common printer/author.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Tallow Candles
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 11:12 PM

So lovely to have you back in "the threads."

Perhaps, you could leverage MAX/PENNE/JOE to create a third division to the Mudcat:

1. Top True Folk/Blues
2. Music European/Morris/Pubs/
3. Lower Portion B.S. - scuttlebutt

It would be nice to have American FolkMusic (academic/sincere) in a thread that continues for seven days....few "folks" log in every day to keep a thread alive.

There is so much more to contribute...but WHY? when it is lost in the nonsence?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The Smithsonian is worthy of your collection - however, a "templete" giving who, what, when, where, how, would contribute greatly.

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 09:10 AM

I have NO idea if it's relevant or not, but tallow candles were/are cheap. They smoke and make less light than beeswax. They also stink pretty bad. Suet/tallow is much easier to come by than beeswax, so us po' folks use/make them.

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: Les from Hull
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 09:42 AM

Yes that's right Sorch, tallow dips for the plebs and beeswax for the posh 'ens, until the coming of paraffin wax - which is nothing to do with paraffin oil. I used to make candles quite a few years ago, but I avoided the use of tallow following visits to York Castle Museum where they have an old tallow boiler. The relevant picture is lower down where there are 'tallow candles hanging down'.

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: GUEST,Peter Taylor
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 05:58 AM

The latest issue of Folk Leads, available from Sam Dodds on [e-mail], has an article on Sam/Jack Hall, the song, and related songs. Jack Hall was a real person, hanged, according to Roy Palmer and the Newgate Chronicle, in 1707, having been previously condemned in 1701, but then let off for unknown reasons--possibly some government initiative on crime. A 'bull', according to Grose's Dictionary of Slang(1811), was a crown piece(5s.=25p), and half a bull half a crown, but I've been able to discover whether a bullock was the same. But as 'Sam Hall' has 'twenty pounds' to Jack Hall's 'twenty bullocks' it's possible, and if so would have been 50s., a reasonable amount of savings then.

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: danensis
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:18 AM

I've found this thread most interesting as my great great grandfather (born 1819) was a Tallow Chandler. I know the occupation was considered the lowest of the low, and he was considered "not good enough" for my great great grandmother's family.

John

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: GUEST,squeezeboxhp
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:33 AM

another name for tallow candles is shalloots and in the deeds to my house i am prohibited from manufacturing them

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: Fliss
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:34 AM

Mine owners issued tallow candles to the miners that were coloured so that if they stole the candles to use at home and they were caught out they were sacked. Hence the term 'not worth a candle'. Being sacked also lost them their tied accommodation, company tokens etc.

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 10:51 AM

'Not worth a candle' means some endeavour, or a game of cards not worth the cost of the light. I don't doubt the parsimony of the mine-owners, but that's not the accepted source for this saying.

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 11:06 AM

Tallow boiling is often prohibited by covenants affecting residential property, despite it being a most unusual activity these days - but it is often part of a compendious clause ending with "other noisesome activity" - which meant smelly not noisy.

Rather an interesting thread so far.

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 11:35 AM

"noisome", methinks, which is less confusing.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: Susan of DT
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 08:09 AM

Posted by Mortica on another thread recently and not answered:

Heard at Sidmouth this year, in the Middle Bar but I didn't have the presence of mind to ask the unknown gentleman for the words. It's to the tune of Sam Hall ( Chimney sweep)and the first verse was:

Oh my name is Tom the Cat
Feed my face, feed my face
Oh my name is Tom the Cat, feed my face
Oh my name is Tom the Cat,
And I'm getting rather fat
But let's not speak of that
Feed my face

Anyone got more of it?

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 10:24 AM

The reason tallow boiling and candlemaking are prohibited in house deeds is because they are a very serious fire hazard - in a dense mediaeval or early modern city with no fire pumps, a candle workshop blaze would be likely to take much of the town with it. Quite early on, Edinburgh forced the candlemakers six miles beyond the city boundaries.

Subject: RE: Origins/Info: Tallow Candles
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:07 PM

In Jack (Sam) Hall's time, most affordable candles were made with tallow; it would have been the kind sold 'short of weight' in the Jail by Hall, as he 'sings' in the broadside (thread 4760, Bodleian broadside c. 1850 posted by Q, and probably a version sung by Ross).
Two 19th c. broadsides are quoted in that thread. Sam Hall

As stated in that thread by Olson, the original(?) broadside is lost; supposedly a 'goodnight' existed close to the dates 1701-1710 when Hall was in jail.

Mention of tallow in the song is probably a late addition; it would not have been singled out for mention at the time and had been used in candles since the Romans invented the wick. Candles of beeswax were expensive, and spermaceti candles would not have been used by the poorer classes.