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Cerne Abbas
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 May 00 - 08:38 PM "And no one would contemplate doing a pair of bristols 60ft across........"
I think there's a few around the Mudcat might... |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,liz the squeak Date: 25 May 00 - 06:08 PM Seen the Kiwi - it is a bit grubby now because it's not been scoured for a while, but still there. I stopped working in the New Inn in 1982..... the Royal Oak is the one at a fork in the road, the New Inn has a big drive in car park, and a U shaped room around a central bar. Lots of old country 'accessories' around, like gin traps (for catching rabbits, not gin, although there are a few Americans who think otherwise.... sorry, I was young and silly, they were old and stupid.....) and a big garden at the top of the yard. Several years ago there was a request to cut another figure on the opposite hill to sort of even it up a bit... The chosen icon was the famous 'wind up the skirt' shot of Marylin Munroe. It was marked out in white paint, but it was decided that because it was a full sillhouette and not an outline, it wouldn't be in keeping with the 'ambience' of the area. And no one would contemplate doing a pair of bristols 60ft across........ LTS |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Penny S. Date: 25 May 00 - 01:45 PM Its the Wilmington Long Man in Sussex that's been bricked. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,Hilary in NZ Date: 25 May 00 - 06:49 AM what was that about the Giant having a little bit of brick?!? to whoever that was a while ago - yes we dined at the New Inn in Cerne Abbas last month when we were over there - was recommended in the Good Pub Guide. Or maybe it was the Royal Oak...damn fine pub anyway. As for the Giant - my 12 year old daughter (an impressionable age) now thinks all the English are perverts for carving huge members on their hillsides. While I'm here, there are no chalk carvings in the antipodes that I'm aware of, but apparently there's a bloody big kiwi carved in a hill somewhere around Avebury - we couldn't find it. Beats stupid wallaby ventrilloquists anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,Tracey Date: 24 May 00 - 01:43 PM For those worrying about the Gian't bing filled in with brick - don't worry, it's only a rumour. I was there last year, and saw some film of him very recently, and I'm sure he's still resplendent in all his chalky glory, without the least little bit of brick. The connection with fertility is definitely there, though - it's an old custom, still going on (covertly - the landowners don't approve, apparently due to possible erosion!)today, to make love on the Giant's manhood to aid conception. Especially effective at the Equinoxes, I'm told. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: selby Date: 23 May 00 - 02:10 PM Tim Laycock did a great song about the Giant at Cerne. The album sleeve was the said giant but I cant remember the album name Keith |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 23 May 00 - 12:40 PM No luck so far on the landscape image - very interesting area though. One possible, but it failed on size grounds, had its bill in Menwith Hill. Lots of other birdy shapes, but nothing especially gooselike. But my map has Harrogate in the corner! Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 22 May 00 - 02:08 PM McGrath's link White Horse |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 22 May 00 - 01:43 PM I wouldn't rule out that any individual might not see something in a moment of vision which spoke to them, and would be grounded in what they knew about, and that must have happened in the past as much as it happens now with ley lines and zodiacs. And visionaries may have recorded what they saw by markers in the landscape. But there's little proof of anything, more's the pity. There was a very convincing television program recently about a valley in South America and representations of their star figures in the landscape. Or at least, it was convincing until they found an image representing Saturn as an old Eurpean type of man with a long beard. I wouldn't rule out that the odd European might not have washed up there before anyone recorded in history, but I find it unlikely that he would have influenced their astronomy so greatly. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Peg Date: 22 May 00 - 01:19 PM Penny; very good points regarding the saturation of the British Isles with sacred sites, so dense with them almost any pattern could be superimposed upon a map and found to have a correspondence or similar outline... also that the human mind, particularly where magical/mystical subjects converge, has a way of being happily convinced when such ideas strike the fancy and engage the synapses and quicken the heart...I am fascinated by where such ideas germinate, how they evolve from their starting point...and of course, how they are debunked or improved upon... See the earlier "Pagan stuff" thread for much heated and tepid discussion of archeology, pseudo-history and Neo-pagan scholarship (or lack thereof)... I remain a pagan bibliophile and practicing amateur astrologer, in any case! (solar cusp, Libra/Scorpio, Capricorn Moon, Capricorn rising, Neptune/Venus conjunct in Scorpio). Your insights on this have been very interesting (as have those of many others on all these topics; it tickles me that such subjects are the cause of such passion for so many Mudcatters!) peg |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) Date: 22 May 00 - 01:11 PM Peg, I've got the Maltwood book, and read it some time back. I know that there are supposedly zodiacs elsewhere in Britain as well (no, not where I am at the moment). My feeling is, based on the following, that the idea probably is supporting more than it can, that it is a sort of Tay Bridge hypothesis. 1.That the inhabitants of this island, at the time required, could not be shown to have the same sky patterns as the Middle East. Other areas see the sky differently, so it's unlikely that they were the same. I know Maltwood makes some variations, but they don't seem to be based on looking at the sky first, which they would need to be. 2.Some of the patterns depend on field and ditch patterns which postdate antiquity - perhaps being as recent as the 17th century. They are to do with the major drainage of that period - very straight-lined, not following natural features, or related to known ancient settlements. 3.Some of the areas would have been under water at the required time. 4.Britain has a vast plethora of ancient and not so ancient features which could be used to plot out patterns anywhere you wanted. I have tried various patterns in various places, through the process, I will draw a (insert geometric pattern, animal image, whatever) around (insert whatever placename comes to mind), and succeeded, sometimes with better results than Maltwood. Some of these successes may not be entirely random, so I will have to try again, randomising the process better, and I am certainly not telling anyone what I found, in case it starts off a wild goose chase. OK, may be I'll try that. A wild goose around or near, Harrogate. (First British placename found in a book I happened to open). 5. The human brain is designed to find patterns in its surroundings, and make sense of very few clues. See :) for confirmation. Smother it in the information on a map and it will attempt to simplify it by turning it into pictures. That's why there are constellations in the first place. Those things being said, I wouldn't want to rule out that there might be, in some place or other, some representation of something or other that might be somewhere up in the sky. But we're more likely to find it by getting a good star map that accounts for the apparent curvature of the sky, removing all the lines that outline the constellations, making sure that it only shows the stars which could be seen by the naked eye in the place and time under consideration, and then looking for the really obvious patterns. Orion (see above), the Plough (Big Dipper), and Cassiopeia are strong candidates, as is Cygnus, and in some places and times, the Southern Cross. Some of the zodiac signs are really hard to distinguish. Then see if any of these patterns fit with anything the locals might have wanted to know, like times of harvest, or floods or whatever, and finally, remember that Britain is not a good place for astronomy, and given the fertility of the past, wasn't any better then. Like Ireland - we are green because we are wet - clouds rule the British skies, not the constellations. I remain to be convinced. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 May 00 - 01:03 PM Third time lucky - I can't get the blue clicky to work, so here is the URL naked and unmashamed:
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1896/horse.html - still giving a lot of information about the White Horse of Uffington and the tradition of scouring it |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 May 00 - 12:59 PM I'll get it right this time:
This gives a lot of information about the White Horse of Uffington and the tradition of scouring it |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 May 00 - 12:56 PM This gives a lot of information about the White Horse of Uffington and the tradition of scouring it |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Peg Date: 22 May 00 - 12:47 PM by the way...I am planning to get the White Horse tattooed (in dark blue or green ink) on my shoulder this summer...I have no other tattoos and thought long and hard abotu what symbols had sufficient spiritual meaning for me that I would always treasure their presence on my body...the White Horse was the first thing I thought of and after considering others (the triple horse spiral, Cerne Abbas, the newgrange spiral, or a simple band of knotwork) decided on my first choice. I have been to the site in Uffington, it is lovely there, and I will be visiting it again next month. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 22 May 00 - 12:41 PM Villagers in Uffington apparently celebrated a yearly ritual of cleaning and preserving the White Horse. This took the form of a festival, and was known since ancient times as "The Uffington Pastime", according to Arthur C Clarke. The sight of the White Horse is really quite breathtaking. For those who haven't seen it, it is a minimalist rendering of a horses shape, in lines reminiscent of pre-Roman Celtic designs. Clarke, in his Mysterious World ,shows a photo of a roman coin bearing the likeness of the White Horse, so it is quite likely that it is at least 1700 years old. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Peg Date: 22 May 00 - 11:55 AM re: astrological imagery in Celtic sacred sites and hill figures: there is a very interesting book on this subject from the 1970s called "The Glastonbury Zodiac." I believe it is out of print but I have seen it is bookstores occasionally...the basic premise is that there is a circle/wheel shaped imprimatur/map composed of twelve sacred sites whose images suggest they are connected to the now-familiar western zodiac...as to which came first??? I have only skimmed this book so I don't know what the last word is...I almost bought it at a local new age bookstore not long ago, they may still have a copy... also there is a new book out on the subject of hill figures called "The Lost Gods of Albion" peg |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 May 00 - 06:06 PM Oh Penny - that is a horrible vision - a chalk giant tiled with white bricks. There is something fundamentally evil about it.
The essential thing about a chalk giant is that it has to be renewed for ever if it is to stay the same. And that is a powerful and moving image. It's the truth that lies behind what I think is the lie which is being purveyed when politicians and others talk about "the need to embrace change", and so forth, almost as if the type of change didn't matter. What there is in all things is a constant need for renewal, and that is not the same thing at all.
This is the key image in The Ballad of the White Horse which I linked to earlier.
And all the while on White Horse Hill |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 21 May 00 - 04:04 PM I think the Long Man is now tiled with white bricks! I remember as a child looking out for him as we drove to visit our Sussex relations. He was somehow "other". Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,liz the squeak Date: 21 May 00 - 04:02 PM hey, where did my label go? I dunno, you go away for a week with no access, and before you know it, some rotten so and so has nicked your name! That last guest was ME!!! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST Date: 21 May 00 - 03:52 PM There was a scouring (the act of cleaning up the chalk lines, removing grass and weeds that grow up over the outlines) in Victorian times that only did the outer lines and respectable features - they refused to scour the willy, thus bowdlerising him.... When it was scoured again, about 50 years later, they put the willy back in, but it is possible that they made it a little bit bigger........, there is a school of thought that suggests a belly button that was "resting" on the top of the er..... willy, which became part of it instead. The long man of Wilmington has no features and has been referred to as the hill skier.... Saw him yesterday, he really needs a scour, or else he will vanish. He isn't half as big or impressive as my mate at Cerne... And did anyone who lived there/nearby ever go to a pub called the New Inn? 'Twas there I started my working career, back in 1979/1980. Ah, those were the days! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 21 May 00 - 03:28 PM There should be traces of previous scourings, as there were with Uffington, so archaeology/geophysics should be used with the historical evidence. And there is another possibility - 17th century scurrilous additions to an earlier figure? Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21 May 00 - 12:18 PM Chalk figures have to be cleaned up fairly regularly to deal with erosion and overgrowth; it seems that the Giant was not always so well-endowed as he is today. Archaeologist Leslie Grinsell determined that, in the course of one such cleaning-up exercise, the Giant's navel "became incorporated into his private parts, resulting in an upwards extension of between five and six feet"(!) A Guardian article by Bryan Silcock, from which I learned this (date forgotten) goes on to say: "Grinsell thinks the amalgamation was probably accomplished during a major restoration carried out for Queen Victoria's jubilee in 1887 (her reaction, if any, is not recorded.) He suggests that it might have been done deliberately by the local inhabitants to provoke their vicar, who had complained of an earlier cleaning that it might corrupt their morals. He had, according to an account published soon afterwards, "put an end to these scourings". It seems more likely, however, that the change was simply a mistake. The vicar's ban could have led to the giant's outline, cut through the turf to expose the chalk underneath, becoming overgrown and difficult to trace precisely." So far as literary spin-offs go, there's a novel by Penelope Shuttle, The Mirror of the Giant, which is entertaining if frankly bizarre. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Penny S. Date: 21 May 00 - 11:08 AM An update with references. The BBC history magazine has a review of a book "The Cerne Giant: an antiquity on trial" Oxbow Books 1999, from Bournemouth University. The perpetrator is claimed to be MP Denzil Holles, originally one of the 5 whom Charles I tried to arrest, but later an enemy of Cromwell. A 1751 "History of Dorset" by the Rev. John Hutchens attributes the giant to Holles, who owned the hillside through his second wife's dowry. Katherine Barker of Bournemouth sees the image as an allegorical 17th century political cartoon, and appropriate to that period. Cromwell had been portrayed as Hercules by his admirers, the club could represent oppressive rule, and the other obvious feature a reference to Puritanism. I'm not so sure about the latter - did the 17th century see puritanism as so much to do with sexual repression as we do? And is it an appropriate jibe against Cromwell? Also, the joke would not have worked if it were kept private, and once public, surely Cromwell's supporters would have razed it, or obliterated it somehow. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Penny S. Date: 20 May 00 - 05:06 AM There is the Long Man of Wilmington, but Thomas is clearly not referring to him. Interesting point McGrath. There's chalk in Ireland, and Denmark and France, and even in Western Australia, so there are other possible locations. It's possible that the hill slopes aren't steep enough because of a different erosion history. Has anyone looked for evidence? Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Margaret V Date: 19 May 00 - 10:39 PM I saw the Cerne Abbas giant in the mid-eighties, and found it a memorable part of my journey through that part of England! Just recently I read a really fantastic poem by Dylan Thomas called "In the White Giant's Thigh," and have assumed it's in reference to the Cerne Abbas giant; there's no other chalk giant, is there? In it he refers to the practice of barren women seeking to gain fertility via the giant (see Philippa's post above). It's an unbelievably rich poem, go to the library and find it! Margaret |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: The Shambles Date: 19 May 00 - 08:49 PM There is an island in Loch Lomand where you can find said marsupials. But don't tell anyone. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: sophocleese Date: 19 May 00 - 08:08 PM Is it any coincidence that this thread came up after three threads about breasts? I have an uncle living near Whipsnade. I remember, as a child, visiting and hearing wolves howling in the night. The next morning I looked out the window and saw wallabies. Maybe they were ventriloquists. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: wildlone Date: 19 May 00 - 06:39 PM A lot of the land around Cerne is owned by the Digby family who also owned Sherborne Castle. The Digby family suported the King during the great rebellion and after Sherborne Castle fell to the forces of Parliment Cromwell asked that it be slighted, and it was. BTW the Cerne giant is no more than the likeness of a local tailor with his scissors in his lap,well that is what the local mothers told the children when asked. dave from Sherborne. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 May 00 - 05:48 PM Oh yes - click here for Chesterton's Ballad of the White Horse>/a> |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 May 00 - 05:45 PM I think the Wallabies of Whipsnade didn't make it through a hard winter a few years back. (I mean the ones that escaped.) Marsupials (apart from possums) seem to have problems competing with placental mammals, which is why there are so many rabbits in Australia, Not to mention humans.
Are there any chalk giants anywhere else, outside England? |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Penny S. Date: 19 May 00 - 05:29 PM I've just been running a search for the giant on the google search engine - there's a lot of good references - try this one http://www.unc.edu/~debest/monster/cerne.htm
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 May 00 - 05:19 PM So it may be that the Uffington White Horse may be the only really ancient piece of hill sculpture? Or has that been connected to some 17th Century Baron? |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Penny S. Date: 19 May 00 - 05:14 PM In the media this week has been an item claiming that the giant was commissioned by a local landowner Sir Denzil (Holles?) who loathed Cromwell, and did it in despite of him. There was an identification of Oliver with Hercules, for some reason. I've only heard it on the radio, so can't give details. I thought this thread had reappeared because of the report! Penny |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Skipjack K8 Date: 19 May 00 - 05:13 PM Penny, have you seen the 'ley lines' thread that was knocking about last November. Don't talk html so can't give you the blue clicky thing, but a search will find it. I remember it well as it was my maiden mudcat voyage. All the best Skipjack K8 |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: roopoo Date: 19 May 00 - 05:10 PM Funny this thread should reappear just after the article a day or two ago in my newspaper (Independent) that the giant is now thought to be 17th century, there being no actual mention of it in any documentation before then. The latest theory is that it is a caracature of Oliver Cromwell who was styled "Hercules" by his followers, and the other "weapon" in evidence being a reference to the local landowner's (not a Parliamentarian) opinion of what he had done to the country, and also what Cromwell had done to him personally. (I believe jail was mentioned). If I remember aright they were also expressing some doubt about the age of the Long Man of Wilmington. Hmmm! mouldy |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: The Shambles Date: 19 May 00 - 03:06 PM The above link to the picture of the offending member, does not seem to work now. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: The Shambles Date: 17 Mar 99 - 02:12 PM Oh and I nearly forgot the end scenes of the episode of 'Men Behaving Badly' shown last night (Tuesday), had our heroes rolling down the poor old Giant. Spooky or what? |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: The Shambles Date: 17 Mar 99 - 01:51 PM Penny It is very spooky as you say. I tuned on the TV today and there and behold in all his glory was the Giant. It was on the BBCs local history hour. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Bert Date: 17 Mar 99 - 01:19 PM AlistairUK, Lewsey farm? I don't think so. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: AlistairUK Date: 17 Mar 99 - 11:39 AM Bert: Did you ever get round to Lewsey Farm just over the border? Shambles: yup some that had escaped from the afforementioned Whipsnade Zoo |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: The Shambles Date: 17 Mar 99 - 10:14 AM Antipodeon connection now. Did either of you guys ever see any wallabies in the wild in that area? They escaped from captivity and were once quite a lot of them, don't know how they are fairing now though. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Bert Date: 17 Mar 99 - 08:36 AM AlistairUK, So you come from Luton Eh! One time I used to have an ice cream round (for Tonibell) in Dunstable. It's a small world guy. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 Mar 99 - 02:21 AM Penny-it was purely fate that brought you here. Be Forewarned though. Escape is nearly impossible. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Penny Date: 16 Mar 99 - 06:18 PM It has just struck me, there is something very odd about this site. I'm using a filtered computer (the service provider is run by an educational concern), and it won't even let me in to an academic site with a list of references to Ancient Egyptian Women. How come I'm here? Not that I'm complaining, and I sure hope they don't find out! |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Penny Date: 16 Mar 99 - 05:58 PM Two further bits of Cerne stuff, from a book called "Gods and Graven Images" by Paul Newman (really?) He includes, I should think, every hill figure in England (including Whipsnade) and some that don't exist. He has a long discussion of the Giant, coming to the conclusion that it was Nodens, the same Celtic god with a healing shrine at Lydney. He also points out that the figure indicates May Day sunrise (don't ask me - figure it out for yourselves!), which would suggest that it wasn't recent. Also Nodens should have a dog, dogs being associated with his cult at Lydney, and, lo and behold, crop marks reveal a sort of Scottie shaped figure, about as big as a Shetland pony, relative to the giant, alongside him. What Newman does not notice is that this pooch is exactly in the right place, relative to the giant, for Canis Major, if the Giant was Orion. Perhaps the Celts saw Nodens in the sky in that constellation. Perhaps people just like scraping chalk hills. I don't know about cross-referencing threads here, it's happening to me off line as well. I go to the library and find details of the revolt, including an attack on nearby Lesness Abbey, return home and am phoned by a friend about a geological field trip to Lesness Abbey. We start discussing the denns, I mention Rolvenden, and I go to a course to be addressed by a teacher from Rolvenden. This is worrying. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Bert Date: 16 Mar 99 - 02:39 PM BARBARA!!! Pictures of WHAT!!! Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: The Shambles Date: 16 Mar 99 - 02:22 PM On the subject of bread a cheese. There may be another reason for the name, or at least a link to it. We have a bunting called The Yellowhammer that has a song that is discribed as sounding like the phrase 'a little bit of bread and no cheese'. |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: Barbara Date: 16 Mar 99 - 01:23 PM Bert's song, of which he is so proud, is called "Size Doesn't Matter (but it does)". Perhaps he is afraid of overidentifying with it? You can find it with a forum search, or perhaps Bert will post us a link. (Pictures this time, please, Bert). Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas From: AlistairUK Date: 16 Mar 99 - 01:01 PM I originally come from Luton in Bedfordshire, England. And when I was a wee lad and a boy scout we used to go to a Hill nearby at Whipsnade and help redifine the white lines on a chalk figure of a lion there. No celtic connection, no star maps it was just there to show that Whipsnade zoo (an annex of London Zoo) was round about. |
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