BS: Should a lady make the first move?

Subject: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:23 PM

Here's the scenario. I am in my early 50's, he's in his late 50's. We corresponded on line for a while, and have gone out several times to concerts and once to a festival. Most of the time we are with other people but a few times we have been on a "date". He has kissed me a few times, but has always been very respectful. Although he is outgoing, I think when it comes to romance he is shy. When he drops me off at my flat, I feel like he would like to come in and...well, you know...but I'm too shy to invite him and he's too shy to ask. We do laugh and joke and sometimes share suggestive "double entendres" but that's as far as it goes. Should I take a deep breath and work up my courage to make the first move?? How? I have been divorced for a couple of years and havent' dated much. I feel like such a novice. I don't know if it is okay for a woman to make the first move. I would be so embarassed if he rejected my overture. And will he think I am a loose woman? Help!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:32 PM

well...seems to me a low key remark would be in order
"you know, we seem to be on a plateau, wondering whether to move up to another level. I'm interested...how about you?" ...phrased in your own style, of course.
   Having someone show an interest in intimacy 'ought' to be at least flattering, and could at least clear the air about any confusions. A few kisses sound like a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:33 PM

Interesting subject; I'll be watching for replies.

My own notion is that if you like each other - and you KNOW that you both do - there is absolutely no reason for you not to make the first move to another level. There is no way he could consider you a 'loose' woman for doing so- hey, you've been waiting and observing, right? - but if he did, he is not a guy you want in your life anyway.

It is always a possibility that he has physical limitations that govern his actions, so you could make it clear that increased intimacy is what you are after, whether that is physical or only emotional.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Scoville
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:34 PM

I don't see why not, but wondering about what he might think if you ask makes me think you might want to get him to talk about it a little more before you actually do it. (Of course, my relationships race along like glaciers, so who am I to say?)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:34 PM

How about inviting him round for a meal one night, rather than going out?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:36 PM

Yes, definitely. Do it with subtlety, but do it! Time's ticking away, and a gentleman will know how to deflect an unwanted advance without being cruel.

He may well be wondering the same thing... you've nothing to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:37 PM

Half of them do. So, what's the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:43 PM

If you were to invite him to a home-prepared dinner and, say, a DVD (or some music you'd like him to hear, or a board game, or whatever), then he would already be in your flat and you wouldn't have that awkward moment of inviting him in "for a coffee". Then, watch for signals. With privacy, he may develop enough courage to make a move without your having to appear "loose" by explicitly inviting him in for "you know".

If that seems too forward, you might prevail on another couple to come to dinner as well, but privately arrange with them to leave earlier in the evening so that you will have him to yourself for a while. Then proceed as above...

Good luck, whatever you choose to do!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:46 PM

Ummm...do remember that by the 50s, most people have become pretty set in their ways about what they want included in a more intimate relationship. It pays to 'clear the air' carefully and gently.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:49 PM

Que sera sera, Guest, if it doesn't happen naturally, then maybe it's best to leave it!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:50 PM

The home cooked dinner invitation sounds good, perhaps after an enjoyable concert. BillD, could you elaborate a little bit more on what you just said? Not sure I understand what you mean? Perhaps it is significant that he has not made a move.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:07 PM

Perhaps it is significant...but I can't guess why, except to suggest that IF you both decide to try more intimacy, be honest about your 'limits' and desires. It is not necessary to go into detail in the 1st 10 minutes, but people can be VERY different.

...and, there is always the off-chance he, as a man in his late 50s, has some 'problem' that worries him. Everyone has some fear of not being 'satisfactory'....and some have real concerns. Or, it may be that he simply is not wanting to be 'possessed' ...has he BEEN married? Did he have a bad experience? It may take more talk to work out why he in not more foreward. As you say of yourself...HE may be afraid of seeming too forward. Humans are pretty complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:10 PM

or he could just be thick and needs to be whacked upside the head with a two-by-four to notice.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:26 PM

Perhaps you've been giving off negative signs. Try flirting a bit more.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:26 PM

What do you want? (be honest with yourself - then him)

What does he want? (ask him)

Go ahead, make the first move.

A relationship built on an honest open conversation is hardly going to do worse than any other.

Yeah - Dinner - Forget the show - it will only give you other things to talk about and another opportunity might be missed.

"Crossing the threshold" in terms of saying things that you feel embarrassed about saying to somebody you like because you irrationally feel they might feel badly about you even though it is obvious that they are aware of the intimacy going on as you are ... (pant pant) ... really isn't that big a deal when you let it happen.

It's not about building up to a big event, it's about enjoying a moment and being honest about it. If you are feeling warm and fuzzy and you want the moment to carry on, you may say so.

Red wine helps ... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:31 PM

oh yeah

and you can take it as slow or as fast as you like. Just remember, this ain't the movies. You're dealing with a person ... and so are they (if they have anything about them)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:40 PM

I've always liked, and sometimes used, the icebreaker spoken by the character that Liza Minelli portrayed in Sterile Cuckoo...

"So howsabout hittin' the old sackeroo?"

Saves a ton of time

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:47 PM

Life's too short, get on with it and enjoy it. If it doesn't work out, then nothing lost. You are not 18 anymore. You do not have to answer to anybody. you will probably regret it if you don't give it a go.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:57 PM

My advice is that a woman should never make the first move. A pushy woman of my acquaintance made a move on me almost exactly twenty years ago. We celebrated our eighteenth wedding anniversary yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:27 PM

I can't imagaine why you would be "too shy" to invite him in - in the circles I travel in - and I don't think those circles are terribly unusual, and I'm heading into the same age range you're talking about - there's nothing untoward about a woman inviting a man into her place; it certainly isn't perceived as an automatic invitation to ... Surely this man is not so Victorian that he would lose all respect for you if you said, Why don't you come up? (or come in for a bit? or come in for a drink/coffee?, whatever makes sense in your part of the world). And if he IS that Victorian, and if runs around telling everyone about your frightful behaviour, he's going to be taken as an idiot and you're going to be taken as a normal person. Invite him in - he'll either come in or he won't. Take it from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:31 PM

I believe in equal rights. If it's ok for a man to do it, it's ok for a woman to do it.
You may be giving off "keep away" energy without even knowing it. Next time he kisses you, don't be the first to let go.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:34 PM

Take him by the hand, tell him to not worry and to stop talking, lead him upstairs and kiss him.

If that doesn't do it, it ain't meant to be! :)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:37 PM

Then slowly unbuckle his belt ...

(to read the rest of this story you must subscribe for £59.99)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:50 PM

It's interesting how our different experiences bear on how each of us approaches the situation. If you have a relaxed confidence in who you are you might not even be asking the question unless your sensitivity to another is so exquisite as to be painful in this situation. Relax, and approach with confidence and sensitivity. I suspect you could successfully deal with any of the various consequences.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:13 PM

"If you have a relaxed confidence in who you are you might not even be asking the question unless your sensitivity to another is so exquisite as to be painful in this situation. Relax, and approach with confidence and sensitivity"

Yes.

To add to that;

Your sensitivity is an asset, and judging by your initial post, it is one which the object of your desire shares. That's got to be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JenEllen
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:31 PM

Mixture of Rowan and Leej--but the main objective being not to take yourself too seriously. Might be fantastic, might be pure crapola, but I can guarantee that if you wait until one or the other of you is beyond frustrated with the situation then no one is going to be happy. Besides, wouldn't you rather be considered a 'loose woman' than one who's rusted shut for lack of wear? *bg*

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:35 PM

"wouldn't you rather be considered a 'loose woman' than one who's rusted shut for lack of wear?"

I think both these terms create unnecessary pressure. Do it your way in your time if you want to.

Be true to yourself though and don't let yourself down either way.

Listen to your heart instead of ignoring it, then the wise counsel your brain has to offer will be of more relevance.

... borderline psychobabble there ... but not meaningless

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:39 PM

My late wife said "Lets go to bed".

Worked for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:53 PM

Personally I used the old "write 'em a song and watch the reaction" - the old Somers FC when it was at the Somers saw it a few times and were as keen as I was at the reaction. But I doubt that was what you would call "sub title". There are similar ways - I had a story teller weave a long story and it was fairly obvious it was aimed at me - no script just from the heart. The listeners were enthralled - no shuffling of feet. I was going carefully at the time so it all fizzled out. Maybe a more public show (in the best possible taste)would move the message on.

Maybe remarks like "so much for the theory ........" and the "practical" implication may be obvious yet unstated.

Maybe enlist a friend to have the saying of it. A third party can be more direct.

How tactile is the relationship at this stage. Hand on elbow, arm shoulder - nothing too intrusive, just a short touch. Sort of polite entree.

These things can take a while - has he been hurt and too raw to risk rejection?

If it can be broached - the subject of how you will progress or pause on this journey, a sort of road map. Give him hope without risk, Ditto you.

Some men might be frightned of what they percieve as "pushy" - better with words and a bit of tactile and judge how he sees the pace of it.

What about the old film tactic. Talk to daughter/mother on the phone and say a few things that he could pick-up on, like "Can't talk now - got a date with a rather dishy hunk blah blah blah."

If all else fails, get him to register as a 'Catter and hope he reads this thread..................

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 06:02 PM

How about the old "Do you find me attractive"? routine..you know..the "Can I ask you something"? and then the "Do you find me attractive"?......It's a starting or finishing point...for conversation anyway and possibly a long term friendship if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 06:15 PM

Awwww, jus' invite the guy over and answer the door in somethin' skinmpy...

(Very bad answer, Bobert...)

Hey, I was jus' funnin'... But seriously, this guy wasn't born last night so he' been in a few situations and he will certainly welcome a "True Confessions" kinda "Hey, Joe, I kinda need to talk with you about something"...

How many real dates did you say you have had???

If yer in the half a dozen range then go for it... The poor guy is probably eaten up with shyness so he'll appreciate you making the effort...

Then have somethin' skimpy on hand...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 06:49 PM

I'm with bobert

Sorry Mr Red, I think this one needs simplifying. I think you're making it confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Confidentially Anonymous Guy
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:20 PM

Keep in mind there is a lot of misreading of one's emotions and intent on the part of both sexes in a budding, fledgling relationship. I am an older guy who has had the opportunity to have been with much younger and much older women, but I still have not figured them out. I have dated women who I thought disliked me during argumentative courtships only to find out they were the ones who liked me the most at the time.    Then again, when those relationships were over they ended up being the worst estrangements of all.

Since I have won some and lost some, I would only say from a man's perspective, take it easy and do not reveal too much of your past relationships, be fair, and above all BE HONEST!

Relationships are difficult, regardless of the decency of both participants.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:40 PM

Ok, maybe my age is showing here but if he is kissing you, doesn't that mean he likes you? I like what Guest, MemyselfandI had to say....very relaxed approached for both people...no need to put so much pressure! Relax, enjoy, be happy!!! I'm already happy for you! You WILL write again and tell us how it's going, won't you?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 08:03 PM

It might depend what the first move is.

Isn't the truth of it that as often as not (at least) women do make the first move, one way or another?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 09:25 PM

If you are comfortable enough with each other's company to be ready to have each other in your respective homes, it is perfectly appropriate to "arrange" for him to come into yours or for you to suggest a reason to be in his. A cup of coffee or a "nightcap" at the end of one of your meetings is pretty non-threatening, and perfectly prim and proper in most local cultures today.

My experience and observation is that a fair percentage of men expect, and will wait for, a fairly explicit indication that "she" is ready for any step to a new level of intimacy. For many men, especially older children like yours, it's almost mandatory that the woman take the lead to move beyond "casual friendship." (We can be pretty dense - and easily frightened about "pushing" relationships.)

Obviously if the man is interested, he may not wait forever. If he's not interested in the level of intimacy you want, you should find out before you spend a lot of time "just hoping."

To find out if you both are ready for something "more intimate" you may need to be together where intimacy is appropriate - understanding that even where the situation allows it, it's not mandatory and either of you should be free to decline any offer.

LiK used the subtle ploy of inquiring about the software I had on my home computer and asked to see it. (Asking to inspect his software might not be the best approach if he doesn't have a computer.)

Once at my apartment, LiK was extremely subtle and coy, when she asked:

"Why are we standing around with all our clothes on?"

Being a very clever young fellow, then of about the age of your friend, I suppressed the reply "I like to keep the heat low to save on fuel costs," and detected a "clue" here. Our relationship progressed quite nicely thereafter.

I'm sure she wouldn't mind if you borrowed her line, although I've heard others that might have worked about the same. (She was, at the time, a bit younger than you, so an age-appropriate adjustment in details might be in order.)

Of course a couple can discuss being more intimate in a setting where it's inappropriate to be more intimate; but it's often best to have a proper place in mind and available so that you can proceed without undue delay if the discussion leads toward something more.

Being in a place where intimacy could be appropriate doesn't mean it's required, so there is no real reason not to have the discussion at home (yours or his), if you're comfortable with it and circumstances permit.

While the guys often are the ones who ask for the first "meeting," even that isn't really a "standard practice" any longer. Some men might prefer to "make the arrangements" for a first meeting; but it's quite appropriate and widely accepted for the woman at least to say "Give me a call so we can get together sometime?" to initiate something. It's also considered quite appropriate for a woman to ask a possibly compatible male to "be my escort" for an appropriate event, as a way of getting a first meeting. (Even these openings don't always produce a desired result, but doing nothing almost never gets you where you want to go.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 10:00 PM

You could ask him his opinion of this web site which is perfectly respectable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:42 PM

"Asking to inspect his software might not be the best approach"

...especially if it's really his hardware you want...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 12:43 AM

Wow, Amos. Global Orgasm Day is coming!

Hard to believe that in 31 days, 1 hour, 12 minutes and 36 seconds it'll be here. I need to call my old friend Julie. If she starts preparing right away, she just might be able to participate.
Difficult to realize that it's already almost one whole year since the last Global Org Day. Soon the air will be filled with jolly carolers moaning from door to door, top-hatted gents and ladies with their comfy muffs calling out "give us a quickie, dear, and we'll be on our way!"

And of course, Global Orgasm Day Eve, or Foreplay Night. How hard it always is to fall asleep with the anticipation of the morning's frolic hanging in the air like an imminent thunder storm. Then, lumbering limberly out of bed at the crack of dawn to discover what goodies have been left for you on the Comfy Couch!

How I look forward to this time of year when mankind, for at least this very special day, tries to come together as one.
Let me the first to wish everyone a Festive Foreplay Night, and a toe-curling Global Orgasm Day!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Another person in her 50's
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 01:05 AM

I'm about that same age, and am just beginning to think about beginning to think about what's being discussed here. I am so impressed with all the kindly and wise advice that's being given in answer to this question.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: hilda fish
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 02:13 AM

I'm in my late fifties and I always ask. A person who is extremely dear to me (and yes, I asked him if he was going to be my lover) has a mantra, "don't die wondering". A very good reminder of our fleeting moments of life and our mortality. Kissing is just, well, kissing. These days it holds no more than that unless someone moves it along to something else. Might as well be you. Making love is also no more than that, making love, unless someone wants - and asks - for it to be something else. Kisses don't equal love or a relationship, making love doesn't equal love or a relationship. What is it you want? Sex/making love, a relationship, bonking buddy? You gotta realise everything is negotiable 'cos you are both human and can both talk. The 'lady' bit died a bloody long time ago I think. You're grown up - ask for what you want - negotiate it. If you are rejected, then handle it. It's not such a big deal when negotiation is the name of the game. A potential lover is also a potential best friend. All through this I'm tempted to say, don't be pathetic, but that sounds a bit mean. But a bit of backbone girl! You ain't 16, sweet and shy (whatever that is!). You are a woman fullgrown in all your glory and able to work out what you want and ask for it, and also handle it graciously if you don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:58 AM

Don't worry rejection on to heavily - if it happens dump it on here - we'll handle it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:07 AM

I've invited him to play scrabble at my place this Saturday. He seemed pleased, and offered to bring wine and cheese. We'll see...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:15 AM

Now, Lonesome EJ, that was funny!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:23 AM

"I'm ... just beginning to think about beginning to think about what's being discussed here"

Don't rush into anything!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JennyO
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:27 AM

Scrabble - that's good! Some friends of mine used to visit each other to play scrabble. They're happily married now.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:25 AM

Make sure the scrabble game lasts a long time and, when it's over, say "It's much too late for you to travel. I would worry about you. Why don't you stay over?" When he asks "Where will I sleep?" the respnse is "With me, I hope." Worked for us. The point is that the ball is in his court at that point. If he is not ready to take such a blatant hint, he is clearly not the person you wish to be with.

By the way, when playing scrabble or at dinner or in other situations, make sure you are sitting near him, not opposite him. Location sends important messages, as does propinquity. If you are always opposite him, he might perceive it as maintaining distance.

In the 1970's I learned that walking up to a woman and stating "You seem to be a very interesting person. I would like to spend tonight getting to know you better." Some of those women are still my friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:26 AM

Scrabble? How many of you were in Slovenia with us last summer?

A couple there, who are now engaged, spent most of their time 'playing scrabble'. This wouldn't have been a problem, if they weren't sharing the room with others, and one of them was nominally in charge of the group....

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:51 AM

How hard it always is to fall asleep with the anticipation ...I've always heard it was difficult for a fellah at "attention" to fall asleep...:-)

The only thing I would add to the great advice above, is be sure to use protection; have some condoms available in case he doesn't. It would be a good idea to also have some lubricant and/or spermicidal jelly handy. It's a sad fact these days that we have to be careful, but it can be handled in a senstive and/or fun way.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 11:00 AM

Is he a Mudcatter? We need to know, as this might alter our suggestions as to what you should or should not do!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 11:04 AM

You beat me to the count katlaughing.

I was just about to say, having invited him to play scrabble, oh and don't forget the condoms, I like chocolate flavour.

I'll bet you don't to play scrabble after that :-)

If you do, drop the letters into his lap by accident and then pick them up one at a time. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 11:06 AM

What is the difference between "Light" and "Hard"???









A Man can sleep with the light on.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: jeffp
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 11:20 AM

If the letters fall fortuitously, you might be able to flirt using the words you play. After all, Scrabble isn't the game you are really looking to win at, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 11:23 AM

Of course a lady should make the first move, if she is so inclined to do so. A little old fashioned seduction is not only appropriate, but will be appreciated. If he is doing the "dual entendre" thing, he is signalling anyway. And if you are concerned with rejection, please put it out of your mind. Get out the Martin, sing him a song, and just create an enjoyable atmosphere. The rest will come. If it doesn't, then this bozo is thick and not worth much more time. But as you describe this, I would assure you that the result will be what you want, m'dear. Just be sure of what you want.

Good luck,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 11:27 AM

Aha, how do you know she has a Martin, and are we sure if this is the case, that it's not her guitar he's after? This puts a whole different light on the matter, Martins are not cheap you know!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 12:19 PM

MY impression, sir, is that neither is the lady!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 01:12 PM

Amos....... my man!!! Well said.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JenEllen
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 01:17 PM

You, my dear, were the topic of choice in the frozen north 'cuddle puddle' last night. Two thoughts:

First, that old chestnut sprung to mind. "If you think you are _______, then you probably aren't." It works for for 'loosey-goosey' as well as 'crazy'. So put that thought right out of your mind.

Second, it's really hard to stomach the thought that you (both) can be in your 50s and not be comfortable with what you want. Where's the harm? I think if you gave him a kiss, and said plainly something like: "Listen, I like you. I think you can make me happy. I think I can make you happy. Last person to the bedroom has to cook breakfast." and then ran like the omlette monster itself was after you, you'd be just fine.

Whatever path you choose, we wish you the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 01:28 PM

Perish the idea that she should imagine for one moment that I thought that, indeed sir that would be a base calumny!
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 01:59 PM

There's no harm in a lady making the first move. Specially if the lady is Hillary Clinton. ;-)

However, those who make the first move must always keep in mind that it might not work out. I've had women make first moves on me which I politely declined...so it can be risky to a sensitive ego. This is something men deal with all their lives, so it's only fair that women should have to deal with it sometimes too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 02:04 PM

Not sure I wanna know what a "Frozen North cuddle puddle" is. What color is this puddle, for starters?? :D

Alright, Giok, your bass-ackwards retraction gets you off the hook!


:D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JenEllen
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:05 PM

Frozen North--as in "Baby, it's cold outside...", and for color: cuddle puddles only come in flesh and flannel.
(Thankfully they are one-size-fits-most, and the holiday gift that's sure to please!)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:44 PM

"had women make first moves on me which I politely declined"

and often then found that then I am labelled as sort sort of nasty arsehole - FOR SAYING NO!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:49 PM

Well, there is just no pleasing some people if you hold your ground and remain true to yourself, is there? ;-)

I've had women interested in me who were potentially such bad news that every guardian angel I had was yelling in my ear, "Don't even think about it!" Sometimes I was smart enough to listen...sometimes I wasn't. We live and learn.

Chongo has had experience with that too. Heh! Just ask him.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 07:21 PM

Moot question. Women are and probably always have been in charge of the direction and velocity of a romantic relationship. A lady should make all the moves, every time. It's less confusing.

In this day and age if she doesn't make the first move and the man does, then it's grounds for a sexual harassment lawsuit. Less chance of that happening if the woman makes the first move, unless the man wants to try for "she took advantage of me" ink in the morning papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:22 PM

YES - Make the first move.

Insist on whole fillets of salted anchovies - Pizza, Ceasar Salid, Appetizer etc. with dinner. Later, as he walks you to the door, remark about how thirsty the anchovies made you...and insist he have a glass of water before driving off.

Prepare a pot of tea, (catnip, lobella, passion flower, yarrow) and let the evening linger.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:24 PM

A man who will let anchovies tickle his tongue is more likely than oysters to dive for the clam.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:59 PM

hey, garg, could we skip the anchovy pizzas and go right to the tea? how about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rowan
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:25 PM

Go straight to the tea! And you might even hum the song.

At one stage of my life I was very taken with a lady who never drank alcohol, soft drinks, coffee or tea. It's amazing how much of the ordinary social lubrication between you is provided by such imbibition; I'd never realised until I experienced the situation where it was routinely, and deliberatly, absent.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:43 AM

Imbibition quells inhibition, as everybody knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:19 AM

In vino hairy ass?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Robyn
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:56 AM

There is a saying - it's better to regret the things you have done than the things you haven't - so go for it and ask him. It's not unknown for a man to to wait for the woman to make the first move. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Hopefully you'll be reporting back with a rosy glow on your cheeks ;) (the ones on your face obviously!)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:53 AM

I'm not going to say anything...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 09:18 AM

Suggestion here. Don't look at your scrabble date as a do-or-die, make-or-break event, or else you'll probably both be so nervous the whole thing will just be an ordeal. Enjoy your game of Scrabble, enjoy each other's company, and if things carry through to the next stage that night, great, if not, well, you've had a pleasant evening, and give it another shot a few nights later ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:40 PM

>>It's not unknown for a man to to wait for the woman to make the first move<<

Yes Rape springs to mind.


What about doing the scene from that famous film was it with Dudley Moore where they played chess to the music of Ravels bolero or something like that. Wish I was 21 again :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:03 PM

"Life is trouble. Only death is not. A man should undo his belt and look for trouble." (Zorba the Greek)

I used to wonder, and if it's not there? What if it fell off?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:01 PM

"God has a very big heart, but there is one thing he will never forgive. When a woman invites a man to her bed, and he does not go."


Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:50 PM

You say, "He has kissed me a few times, but has always been very respectful."

How about, when there's a kiss, putting your arms around him (if they're not already there) and giving a squeeze, but then not dropping your arms but holding them around him (so he can't very well back away), pull back your head and look him in the eyes, then zeroing in for another kiss? (Repeat ad libitum)

Variation: A quick kiss on the tip of the nose, and/or on each eye. Then back to the mouth.

If you can't use the above as a successful beginning framework, there's nothing much that can be done for you!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:42 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm
the concept of Scrabble and French Letters just won't leaver my brain at the moment

Not such a bad idea really - an easy way to braoch the subject.

(UK - US translation - er think condoms)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:48 PM

It's been a couple of days since Mudcatters started offering advice.

So didja do it yet? :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:56 PM

There is no reason why a lady shouldn't express she has feelings to a man. You are in the best position to read the situation. You must have noted his interest at enjoying your company. Tell him you are considering taking a short break, would be nice if you knew a place he liked, ask him would he like to join you ?

Always read his body language and eye contact, they are dead give aways in a man.

Good luck with it.
Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:05 PM

I'm with WYSIWIG,

come on

whats the goss

tell me more tell me more did you get very far

Uh huh, .. uh huh ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: open mike
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:12 PM

ahh..here's hoping that by International
Orgasm Day we will hear good news here!

Who knew there was such a holiday...
especially in places where there
are weapons of mass destruction.

My kids have taught me a comical
(and possibly "inspiring") game:
When reading the fortune in the
cookie--always add "in bed" to
the saying...might lead to
some interesting conclusions...

also how about a game of risque' scrabble..

it might be a clue if you were to ask
(rather than "do you find me attractive")
"what qualiies do you envision in your
ideal mate or partner?" (and hope that
some might match with you...)

that might get the conversation pointed
in that direction....I am trying to get
the nerve to pose such a question to a
certain someone, myself!

best of luck to us all!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:14 PM

Actually, my point was that additional advice may be obsolete by now, yet we continue to blather on. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:19 PM

Ok - in that case I'll make it my own

spill the beans, let the cat out of the bag.



Actually - I don't see much difference - I was acting on your observation - I was making it fun too ...


Would you have preferred to discuss the premiss that perhaps we have carried on too long?

Harrumph - Right - jolly good - who's going to chair the meeting, who's treasurer, and who gets to bang the hammer and ring the bell?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:20 PM

Well, Ring ma Bell, Honey!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:22 AM

Your local "toy shop" (adult variety) almost certainly has the "Official Strip Scrabble" game, now that you children have arranged a "play date."

You might even find it at a "more conventional" book/game shop.

My personal experience of such games (which does not include that particular one) is that they usually are so "hokey" that they're not really much fun to play. But you might have both versions available and offer him the choice of which he'd prefer.

Regardless of which he chooses, you can always suggest "warming up" with the regular one first, with the suggestion that you need to "find out if he can score well enough to make the S-version worthwhile." (If he accepts that option, be sure to offer to help him with the tough words to make sure he scores.) You won't need to play the inane "other version" if he's not totally clueless - if he is at all interested.


The preceding is of course quite tongue-in-cheek.

You've arranged to meet him where privacy permits openness, and you should have no need for any tricks or gimmicks. You enjoy his company and he yours. Have an enjoyable evening and let your relationship proceed in whatever way is appropriate to your mutual interests. Show your own interest(s) and if necessary simply tell him what they are. If necessary simply ask him about his.

Simple conversation, while enjoying your game, should be sufficient to advance your relationship - in whatever direction is meant to be.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:12 AM

>>It's been a couple of days since Mudcatters started offering advice.

So didja do it yet? :~)

~Susan <<

he he was jujst thinking the same myself LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:26 AM

"Should a lady make the first move?"

Yes, so the gentleman will know when to 'get off'...



OOOOOOOOOOO, I'm a naughty boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:11 AM

Well my ex-wife thought a lady should make any moves. A guy might think he'd hurt her if she did.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:13 AM

That was supposed to say "shouldn't make any moves."

^%^@$#!

John

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:49 AM

I don't think any of this advice is redundant. Even if guest doesn't need it any more there are likely to be others in the same boat who will be interested in what is being offered.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Another person in her '50
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:54 AM

Amen

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 09:28 AM

The Scrabble game is not until Saturday!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

BTW thanks to everybody for the encouragement.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:29 AM

A great Guru once said, "The greatest of all virtues is straightforwardness". Most people appreciate honesty, even if what you said does not agree with them.

Make it look like an invitation, NOT an expectation. Hell of a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:15 PM

Just wondering - YOU weren't by any chance that great guru, were you?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:31 PM

After all this sensible advice I do hope we get to know all the gory details. But not Saturday please I have been invited to a lovely lady's place for a game of scrabble.

I have no idea if anything else is on the cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:37 PM

LOL

Folkie Dave
you could try a few sensitive word such as


Hard
Knob
Shag (as in tobacco)
Yew
Tonight

Good luck to yew :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:43 PM

I haven't told her I am an expert at pornographic scrabble. Imagine how many points there are in "suspenders" and "basque" "welt"..........

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:33 PM

I just thought of an 11 letter word!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:40 PM

I just thought of a 12 letter word.

I feel yours is less selfish? (for a man)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:04 PM

Who can amke the most points on a sexy word in scrabble then?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:21 PM

Well "Jizz" has to be a good one ...

... we have started haven't we ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:38 PM

What does Jizz mean then, and is it in an authoritative reference

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:07 PM

Sorry, memyself, I'm not that wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:12 PM

Well Jizz is both a verb and a noun, referring to both the process and the product of male ejaculation.

As for authoritative references, I don't have a copy of the oxford extended sexy word dictionary so I can't be sure of it's authenticity.

... Quim? ...

Perhaps I should call it a day ....

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:21 PM

Well that sounds alright then :-)

How many would you have scored?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:57 PM

Depends how many times I think I'm able to jizz ...

... oh that isn't what you meant? ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:22 PM

Well, once, Jazz was a naughty word...

And any song that lines like

'rattle those pots and pans'

was considered rude...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:58 AM

Well the Aussies are certainly rattling Englands Pots and Pans.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:47 PM

Are the Aussies going to haul England's Ashes again?

Openness and honesty avoid all sorts of misunderstandings. Good Luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:52 PM

Be nice, lads. No hijacking allowed.

Mick, who believes the Aussies will indeed kick their ashes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:27 PM

It's Saturday night
And I think they might...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:30 PM

Scrabbling in the dark ........


...Ooooh ... that's a big word you've got there ...



... Yes I've scored ...

... it's a double ...

         no

... It's a triple ...


Do you think he's gonna give her the benefit of his full vocabulary?

the suspense is killing me!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:09 AM

Well as this thread has been reduced to so smutty a level, I think the originator should remain silent, and by doing so avoid prurient questions and suggestions!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Cathie
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:13 AM

Oh

I am looking forward to seeing how many people sign in as Guest, guest and give a version of the morning after.

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Diva
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:54 AM

Yes she should but don't do it by text, you'll only have to phone and explain........however, three years on it was worth te phone call. Good luck to guest

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:28 AM

... more likely - The Mourning After....

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

Rising from the dead?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:02 AM

Thanks to all who were supportive. I'm feeling rather disappointed because unfortunately it didn't work out like I'd hoped. Bottom line, he made it clear he wasn't interested. He did so in a way that was as nice as possible, but I'm still smarting from the rejection, even though it was done in a kind manner. I'll get over it, but I don't want to go into details. I think all the advice was good, but if somebody just doesn't find you attractive in that way, none of it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:10 AM

Obviously a man lacking in taste and discernment. If I lived any closer I'd offer you a consolatory [?] drink.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Tweed
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:14 AM

Well the guy's obviously either a complete danged fool or has lost his gear somewheres.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 07:02 PM

Commiserations!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Guest Guest
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 07:12 PM

"I'm feeling rather disappointed because unfortunately it didn't work out like I'd hoped. Bottom line, he made it clear he wasn't interested."

Oh, Blue Monday!

Just remember Guest, guest, this does not need to be the last time you try the advice you were given. I guess is everyone has faced rejection in their love life before.

I would also say we all learned something along the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 07:20 PM

Good to feel alive though! isn't it?

Now you can get on with the rest of your life and not waste any more of it wondering.


Respect to you for everything - for being honest - to all concerned - but mostly for going for it.

The heart needs frigging exercise.

The adrenaline rush was wicked - don't pretend it wasn't

You go girl!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 07:50 PM

Bad luck. Worth a try though. We all feel for you but don't let the let-down (don't call it a "rejection") get you down. Also don't let that cause you to lower your own standards.

Do remember however that men can be just as negative about their own body images as women and some will reject advances because they fear their own body image. It is conventional wisdom that women are less bothered about physical appearance in their partners and it may be a safeguard to make it clear that that is not a make or break issue (assuming that to be so).

Also remember that candy is dandy but liquor is quicker - although alcohol, while it increaseththe desire decreaseth the performance.   Alcohol may therefore be said to be an equivocator.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 08:33 PM

As one who has said no to a woman, trust me, many ladies just can't take rejection - yet us poor males have to learn to cope with it from the beginning of puberty.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 08:39 PM

Forget that egghead, m'dear. His loss. You took the control of the situation. I don't know this chap, but if you were attracted to him I am sure he was a nice fella. But there are plenty of others, and you now know that you have enough control of the situation to carve your own path. You grew on this one. Don't stop, keep moving down the path of being a woman in control of her own life. Good on ya.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 09:47 PM

Well, I admire you for taking the bull by the horns, Guest,guest. You did the right thing. We can't know who's going to be attracted to us. I always figured most women were, and was often amazed to find out they didn't find me as dashing as I think I am. And that's the key. You keep a healthy regard for yourself, keep being up-front, let those rejections bounce off like raindrops on naugahyde, and you'll find that guy who IS worth your time.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 02:18 AM

It obviously wasn't meant to be Guest guest, but I am a strong believer in "for every door that closes another one opens"
I hope that won't be too long for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:21 AM

There is also the school of thought Villan that says, As one door close, another one slams shut in your face!
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:51 AM

As long as you jump out of the way, so it doesn't break your nose, no real harm done!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:00 AM

Last week you had a friend, but were uncertain about his intentions.

This week you know his intentions.

It's up to you (and to him) whether he is still your friend, of course; but there has certainly been progress of a kind.

If you are at all interested in having a special and intimate friend, it's quite obvious that the more friendly acquantances you have, the more likely you are to find the one that's appropriate for that use kind of relationship. And now you know a bit more about how to "trade intentions" so as to make the best of all your friendships.

Now that you know his level of interest, the only real ruminating you might do is to look at whether there were clues that you can use the next time you're uncertain, when the next one comes along.

Fluff up the feathers, and get back out there. Go forth (a little more) boldly.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 09:59 AM

"Last week you had a friend, but were uncertain about his intentions.

This week you know his intentions.

It's up to you (and to him) whether he is still your friend, of course; but there has certainly been progress of a kind."



I absolutely agree!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:41 PM

What ever makes another person comfortable is polite, respectful and loving.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Pauline L
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 01:34 PM

I'm a divorced woman in her mid 50s and I've been-there-done-that. I'm amused at the people who've been married (and presumably monogamous) for years who consider themselves qualified to give you advice. I'm with those who advised that it's better to broach the subject than to wonder forever about missed opportunities. My approach depends on the situation. I've ranged from asking "Where do you see our relationship as going in the future? Do you want to be friends or something more?" to "Do you think you could sleep comfortably on my Futon?" The latter was for a man who is a direct communicator, expressed interest, and told me several times, "I've never been sexually aggressive. I don't want to offend a lady." I asked him, "Would you mind if I'm sexually aggressive?" Honestly, I can't believe I've said these things. I'm generally shy and unassertive. However, I'm also goal-oriented. ;-) I've gotten various responses in my career as a dating woman. One fellow was emotionally incapacitated by a sexually abusive mother. (I've been told that this occurs more commonly than one might suppose.)    He was attracted to me but couldn't act on it. In other cases, I've had more positive results. One really needs to be sensitive to the situation and the individual. I'm very glad that you had the courage to broach the subject, sorry that it didn't work out the way you would have liked. I believe that it's best to know.

PS. Wish me and my Futon luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 04:42 PM

I wish Pauline luck but both she and someone earlier made me think about a couple of occasions in my past. When my first marriage ended I was at a loss for a while, although I had some great times and it took me a few years to find someone with whom I thought I could settle down. Being one of those whose shyness was dealt with by overcompensating as an extrovert achiever I felt I wanted to avoid 'manipulating' or ' directing' this new relationship towards sexual consummation.

For six months we spent lots of time together and did a wide variety of things but never even so much as held hands. Even when we returned from a field trip and both had to stay at my place (being reconstructed and with only one bed) I gave her the bed and slept on the couch.   [After some years she told me she expected me to make a move on her on that occasion, but I'd been brought up in the old fashioned way.] Then, one evening after seeing a play, I took her to her place and she just turned on me and said, "Are you interested in sleeping with me or not?" I was gobsmacked but told her it was what I had been hoping for as part of a long term commitment.

Seventeen years (and two daughters) later we had to call it quits, although we still work in the same building and she has married again. It took me a while to recover and, while I was coming up for air, I was part of a group who knocked around together and played music. We were joined by a woman who took a shine to my daughters and, while never saying it in so many words, gave me the impression over the weeks that she would like to get closer to me. Before it came to a head (in my view) I let her know that I was still "damaged goods" and not interested in an emotional relationship with anyone until I'd got through recovering. That was six years ago and she's never spoken to me since. On every occasion when we (occasionally) pass in the supermarket or the street, it appears I'm invisible and inaudible. It's her loss, as far as I'm concerned, and I lost no sleep over it. And I've long since ceased to regard myself as damaged by all this experience.

But I do think that, to a large extent, we are creatures of our upbringing. As a reasonably ordinary male growing up in a relatively conservative society in the 40s and 50s I was acculturated in many ways, including taking the initiative when establishing relationships. I've spent a lot of effort over most of the time since the 50s weeding out the acculturations I think 'wrong' and developing ones I think 'right' and I recognise how difficult it can be for someone like the originator of this thread who, it seems, recognises similar acculturations.

Change always requires an effort and I wish her every success.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: autolycus
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:30 PM

A fascinating discussion.

Is it possible to make the right suggestion(s) given that every single relationship is unique?

It does still seem a problem for me,61-y-o man with 2 grown-up daughters and divorced STILL to know if there's any clear boundary between taking some kind of initiative, sensitively as poss., and being thought of as objectionable/threatening. hence I rather take the let-her-make-the-first-move approach, while wondering if I'm encountering a lot of 'waiting-for-the-bloke- women.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Pauline L
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:48 PM

Rowan said For six months we spent lots of time together and did a wide variety of things but never even so much as held hands.. OMG! I would have written you off as hopeless from a dating point of view. I certainly haven't encountered any men with your attitude. Thanks for letting me know that there are men out there with attitudes and expectations very different from mine. I appreciate the need for communication and clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:17 PM

Game playing is for teen agers. There are subtle ways of asking what he wants.

I once dated a woman three times, and the forth time she got all nervous about something. I had to insist that she tell me what the problem was, and she finally said "We have dated three times now, and you haven't tried to get me into bed."
I didn't tell her that the reason was I didn't know if I wanted to see her again. That did it, never saw her again.

If he wants to "see more of you" he will give you a sign. Most men make that sign very clear. If you see that sign, ask him if he would like to stay the night. His answer will tell you all you need to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:08 PM

Well, in regards to a relationship, the phrase "What are we doing here?" has been heard on more than one occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:04 AM

Be thankful that he is a gentleman. If he were not, you might have had an evening of wham bam and never heard from him again. Here, there is at least the possibility of a continuing friendship and someone to go to events with when you are not otherwise involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:12 AM

In a sense, Pauline and kendall 'had it right' for the situation I was in. I was happy with the convivial and continuous nature of our contact; by being there I was sending a signal that I wanted to continue. I didn't want to 'push' my friend into feeling she was required to respond, in any way, more than she felt comfortable with. I was prepared to let the relationship develop at its own pace.

I suppose I'm old-fashioned enough to think I appreciate the difference between "courting" (which is what I regarded us as doing) and what I understand by the American term "dating". Then again, perhaps I don't correctly appreciate the differences, if any. I think I can read situations properly and I think I can test them with subtlety, but then, I'm biased. I don't think Australians of my generation would often use the term "courting" but I also don't think they'd use "dating" to describe "going out together", either. I suspect there are cultural differences at work here.

I also think there are behavioural differences between generations too. A young lady colleague (the daughter of other colleagues of mine with whom I lunched at our caf, occasionally; she joined us frequently) recently started work at our institution. She is almost young enough to be my granddaughter and I have no "interest" in her at all. By email, I suggested, "Coffee?" (literally, that was the full text apart from my signature file, which has "Cheers, Rowan" and my work contact details) as I wanted to give her some info about coming events that she might also pass to her parents.

Her reply read, "I don't want to be rude so stop imposing on me." I take it from this that, to some, an invitation to coffee at a rather public caf conveys more than I had intended. Curiouser and curiouser. Needless to say, I offered her my apologies and won't be offering her coffee in the future.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:29 AM

Pretty hard to believe she "didn't want to be rude"!

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:40 AM

Sigh!
Well, she is young. And perhaps I'm the forgiving type.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Mr Yellow
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:15 AM

Nowt so queer as folk


'appen

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:20 AM

I'm sure she'll make some nice young man very happy ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:40 AM

"We have dated three times now, and you haven't tried to get me into bed."

That's the problem with those stupid mass market popular books - nobody need to use their brain or actually observe the signs in the world around you any more - just count on your fingers....

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 09:50 AM

"Please leave! You're upsetting my cat" works too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:48 AM

Sometimes it paid to be blunt when I was divorced the first time and barely drinking age. I went out to bars wth live music several times per month. It got to where if a guy offered to buy me a drink, I'd look him in the eye and tell him, "Thanks, that would be fine as long as you know I am not going to f*** you for it." Most of them expressed relief that we'd gotten THAT question out of the way, even if it wasn't exactly what they were hoping for.We'd usually have a nice evening of dancing and talk, OR, they'd go try it on someone else. That was many years ago, pre-AIDS, but it did seem the prevalent implication, i.e. if a fellow bought a girl drinks, she would have sex with him. I do still favour upfront communication.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 11:26 AM

There seems to be a general understanding that most people of both sexes would like to have a close, intimate relationship with someone else...usually of the opposite sex. Thus, if two people are spending some time together, and both are aware that the other have no current marriage or other close relationship, it is usual to wonder if THIS could, or should, become one.
   There can be all sorts of reasons why someone is NOT willing to "go further", and it is not always easy to provide details, but it is usually best to politely state where they stand, if not why.
   So, someone has to ask, hint, make a move...etc...in order to clarify the situation. In the case of 'guest', this was done....and whether these two people continue to enjoy each other as 'company' is between them.
   It is perfectly possible to continue to meet, date and enjoy the company of someone without expectations of it becoming intimate, but it is always good for both parties to be aware of whether the other is seeking a relationship with intimacy...whether marriage or otherwise.

   There...I hope that was sufficiently vague and neutral.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:01 PM

" There...I hope that was sufficiently vague and neutral."

There's a future for you in Canadian politics, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:22 PM

There are things that need to be clarified before you marry, but you shouldn't wait until the wedding day.

A young couple were on their way to Las Vegas to get married. She was visibly nervous, and finally, she said to him, "Look, before we marry, there is something you need to know about me, and you may change your mind about getting married. I don't have hardly any boobs at all. He said, "So what? I'm going to marry you, not your boobs. And, while we are doing the confession thing, I have to tell you something too. Below my waist I'm like a new born baby." She said, "That's ok, size isn't everything."
So, they got married, and that night in the bridal suite, she got ready for bed, dropped her dress and sure enough, very small boobs.
He dropped his pants and she fainted. When she came around, he said, "I told you I'm like a newborn below my waist" and she stammered, "I know, but my God, 9 pounds, 18 inches?"

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Schantieman
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:29 PM

...or, indeed, in British.

S

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:05 PM

If ladies don't make the first move, how will they make a living at it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:49 PM

Perhaps I canb put my dilemma another way.

   Are there at least two sorts of lady, those prepared to take the initiative, and those who are not?

   And is there a way to distinguish between a lady waiting to be asked and a lady who is not interested? They can look interchangeable.

   Thanks.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 02:04 PM

The lady waiting to be asked will drop her handkerchief at a convenient moment. That's the gentleman's cue to make his move.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:08 PM

(I WANT TO BE) SEDUCED
(Gary Richard Tigerman)

Recorded by : Peggy Lee; Leon Redbone; Richard Dreyfuss.


I wanna be seduced,
Let a woman talk to me suggestively;
Wanna know that she'd like me to be with her tomorrow morning
Drinkin' hot jasmine tea.
I want her to make me laugh (ha ha ha),
Make a point about touching me when she talks (uhhmm ho ho hmm),
Leaving all the jealous guys in the place to
mumble in their wine and gawk.
I know it only happens when I'm napping,
Nodding in a reverie,
That I find myself a woman that understands about seducing me.

I know it only happens when I'm napping,
Nodding in a reverie,
That I find myself a woman who understands about seducing,
I'll dream about the moon until she'll introduce herself,
I'm imagining a woman who understands seducing me.

I want to be seduced, I want a woman to take me out to dinner for two
I want to see her eyes gettin' moody,
Flirtin' with the thought of what flirtin' can lead to
I want to act real cool, have her think about gettin' little me in bed
Have a chat about Magna Charta, or Puerto Vallarta, or somethin' Gandhi said

I might demur politely, falter slightly, if she starts to fondle my knee,
But I'm relatively certain I'd compromise if I know me

I want to be seduced, I want a wom-an to talk to me suggestively
I want to hear her say she'll be with me tomorrow morning,
Drinking hot jasmine tea

I want her to make me laugh, make a point of touching me when she talks
Leaving all the jealous guys in the joint to mumble in their beer and gawk

I wanna be seduced,
I wanna a woman to take me out to dinner for two;
I'd like to see her eyes get moony
Flirting with the thought of what a little flirting outta to do.
I'd like to be real cool
Let her figure out what I really mean, instead
of havin' a chat about African genesis, psychokinesis
or something Stanislavsky said.

I might demure politely,
Or falter slightly
If she tries to fondle my knee,
But I'm relatively certain that I'd come across if I know me.

I know it only happens, when I'm napping, nodding in my reverie
That I ever find a woman who wouldn't mind seducing me
I know it only happens, when I'm napping, nodding in my reverie
That I ever find a woman who wouldn't mind seducing
Starting from the moment that we'd been introduced
That I ever find a woman who wouldn't mind seducing me

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,Bloke
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:37 PM

Look, if a bloke wants a shag it doesn't mean he wants a relationship. If he has a good shag it might lead to a relationship. But by and large a relationship with a woman is a lot of trouble.

Also, he might quite fancy a shag but be worried about his own body image or lack of practice.

If you (woman) fancy a shag, ask. At least you are unlikely to be accused of sexcrime as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Rowan
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM

Great song! I haven't heard it for years but it's spot on!

Cheers Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:53 PM

Hmmmmm?

The ol' "dropped hankie" trick, eh??? Better not try it in this holler 'er when ya' bend over to pick it up one of these holler gentlemen will most certainly make his move...

Awwww, jus' funnin', but let's get real here... This ain't the late 1890's when the dropped hankie might bring on a suitable suiter...

Meanwhile, I'm stickin' with my oroginal advice some 3000 or 4000 posts ago to say "Hey, can we talk???"....

Bobert Juan

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 06:25 PM

"let's get real here... This ain't the late 1890's when the dropped hankie might bring on a suitable suiter..."

By jingo, I'll bet that explains why no dame has dropped the hanky for me since 1896! And here all this time I thought it must be my old-fashioned notions that were scaring off these "flappers" and "New Women" and "'It' Girls". Well, blow me if you don't learn something everyday! By cracky, Bobert, I surely am grateful to you for catching me up with these modern times ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 07:10 PM

Nowadays they just drop their knickers (assuming they had any on to begin with) and hitch up their skirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 07:27 PM

That's what I mean by "equal opportunity"

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:16 PM

An' in the words of Donnie, "I'm a drunk" Pettit, who would jump on anything, hanky or not, providin' they had a recent pulse....

... get her done!!!

Myself??? Hey, I got some morals and would more than likely pick up the hanky an' say, "Next time, jus' answer the door in somethin' skimpy..."

Like Donnie says...

... get her done!!!

Bobert Juan

(Ans then the Bobert woke up...)

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: Pauline L
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 01:50 AM

Say it with a song. There are plenty of songs that address the issue. One of my favorites includes the lines

I long to see you in the morning light.
I long to reach for you in the night.

*Sigh* One of my favorite romantic songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should a lady make the first move?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:36 AM

Oh katlaughing, you certainly had me laughing when I read the final words of your post at 10:48AM.
"I do still favour upfront communication."

Giok