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Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding

Leadfingers 22 Nov 06 - 04:00 PM
Herga Kitty 22 Nov 06 - 04:13 PM
black walnut 22 Nov 06 - 04:16 PM
folk_radio_uk 22 Nov 06 - 04:32 PM
breezy 22 Nov 06 - 04:34 PM
The Borchester Echo 22 Nov 06 - 04:53 PM
The Borchester Echo 22 Nov 06 - 04:56 PM
folk_radio_uk 22 Nov 06 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,james 22 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM
Dave Hanson 23 Nov 06 - 03:47 AM
Dave Hanson 23 Nov 06 - 03:50 AM
Scrump 23 Nov 06 - 04:13 AM
Scrump 23 Nov 06 - 04:15 AM
The Borchester Echo 23 Nov 06 - 04:22 AM
Scrump 23 Nov 06 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 23 Nov 06 - 04:44 AM
The Sandman 23 Nov 06 - 04:47 AM
Mrs_Annie 23 Nov 06 - 06:13 AM
Betsy 23 Nov 06 - 07:02 AM
melodeonboy 23 Nov 06 - 07:24 AM
Les in Chorlton 23 Nov 06 - 08:41 AM
Grab 23 Nov 06 - 08:46 AM
Les in Chorlton 23 Nov 06 - 08:49 AM
Scrump 23 Nov 06 - 09:16 AM
greg stephens 23 Nov 06 - 11:29 AM
Scrump 23 Nov 06 - 11:54 AM
The Borchester Echo 23 Nov 06 - 12:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Nov 06 - 12:47 PM
Hamish 23 Nov 06 - 02:43 PM
Dave Hanson 24 Nov 06 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 24 Nov 06 - 04:41 AM
George Papavgeris 24 Nov 06 - 04:55 AM
Scrump 24 Nov 06 - 05:20 AM
greg stephens 24 Nov 06 - 06:33 AM
Mo the caller 24 Nov 06 - 06:42 PM
Les in Chorlton 25 Nov 06 - 02:37 AM
George Papavgeris 25 Nov 06 - 02:41 AM
Hamish 25 Nov 06 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,Eric 25 Nov 06 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 25 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM
The Borchester Echo 25 Nov 06 - 01:14 PM
Les in Chorlton 25 Nov 06 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 25 Nov 06 - 06:17 PM
Les in Chorlton 26 Nov 06 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 26 Nov 06 - 05:15 AM
Les in Chorlton 26 Nov 06 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 26 Nov 06 - 07:43 AM
GUEST 26 Nov 06 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Nellie Clatt 26 Nov 06 - 08:19 AM
greg stephens 26 Nov 06 - 08:21 AM
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Subject: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:00 PM

Just listened to the nominations for the Folk Awards ! What struck me , it seems to be nearly all the same people in EVERY category !
What does any one else think ??
I have nothing against any of the artists , but Spiers and Boden are a fair bit of Bellowhead , Martin Carthy is in all over the place , as is Tim Van Eycken , Eliza Carthy and Seth Lakeman !


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:13 PM

Yes, Tel, but you always hear the same people on the show during the rest of the year. It would be nice to be surprised for a change.

I'm glad Vin was nominated for best live performance, though I suspect Bellowhead will win.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:16 PM

What folk awards? Where? When? We don't all live in the same country here, don't forget. The first thing that came to my mind when I read the subject heading was the upcoming CFMA's in December -the Canadian Folk Music Awards...

~b.w.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: folk_radio_uk
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:32 PM

I tend to agree. They are all great artists and some are debut albums. But it would be nice to see more names. Doug Bailey over at Wildgoose records is knocking out some great english folk that doesn't get a look-in. Also Pete Heywood of "The Living Tradition" Mag features many new artists that you never get to hear on mainstream stations.
How about: Mick Ryan & Pete Harris, Jim Causley (surprised he hasn't had a mention, he's going to be touring with Tim Van Eyken later this year), The Queensberry Rules (another great act), Tom and Barbara Brown, Ron Taylor and Jeff Gillett, Keith Kendrick (superb album: Songs from the Derbyshire Coast), Jez Lowe and The Bad Pennies (another surprise). I could go on but I'll bore you


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: breezy
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:34 PM

Harding did feature a song by Pete Morton this year

'I'm in love with Emily Dickenson'

how about that for a change in programme line up then , what more can you expect.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:53 PM

BBC-R2 Folk Awards Nominations

Martin Carthy's not nominated at all as a solo performer, just as a duo with Swarb and as a member of Waterson:Carthy. Nor is Eliza mentioned anywhere (except as a member of W;C. I hold no brief for the BBC, not having worked there for a decade, but come on, be accurate. And Spiers & Boden are 2/11ths of Bellowhead.

The best howler is the nomination of Seth Lakeman doing The White Hare as 'Best Traditional Track' when it's a ditty he cobbled up from some crap legend and put it out on a pop vid with an out-of-work model.

All that really interests me really is the Horizon Award for 'best newcomer' which, as usual, lags behind reality. The Devil's Interval who ought to have got it last year will win. Mawkin (who aren't even nominated) who should be up there will be on a catch-up next year and Shona Kipling & Damien O'Kane (who are nominated but it's not 'their turn' yet) will get it the year after.

The Tim Van Eyken/Van Eyken multi-nominations are good news and very well deserved, but a good call is Game Set Match, Nic Jones' latest compilation, nominated for Best Album. It is not, of course, his best album at all, but until the four lost ones become available again, it's the best that's out there,


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:56 PM

f r uk:

Jim Causley is a member of The Devil's Interval who are nominated for the Horizon.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: folk_radio_uk
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:09 PM

Countess. Missed that, Blood and Honey is a great album. Also like Fruits of the Earth, his own album, "Lusty Young Smith" and a nice version of "John Barleycorn"


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,james
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM

I saw the devils interval at the grove in leeds recently. They were crap.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:47 AM

How did Show of Hands qualify for the best ' duo ' nomination ? there must have been at least five of them, mind you they will probably win because they were the ones who sounded like a pop group.

eric


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:50 AM

In fact they should start a new category for bands like Show of Hands,
' the folk music for people who don't really like folk music award '

eric


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:13 AM

Show of Hands is still basically a duo, but Miranda Sykes has been a more or less permanent 'special guest' on their latest tour. They may sound like a group of five, but that's probably due to the number of instruments they play :-)


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:15 AM

For those who don't know what the folk we are talking about, see details of the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards here


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:22 AM

I already osted a link to the nominations in ful @ #6.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:39 AM

Oops, sorry my lady - a genuine oversight. Please ignore my link and use the Countess's.

I wonder whether the other nominees for Best Traditional Track can or will complain about the inclusion of The White Hare? Or don't folkies do that sort of thing? :-)


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:44 AM

In my opinion the BBC Radio 2 "Folk" Awards have had little to do with 'real' folk music for many years. The comments above about, "the folk music for people who don't really like folk music award" and the folk group who "sound most like a pop group" are all to true!

You should be hanging your head in shame, Mr Harding - but probably you don't give a toss!


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:47 AM

How can seth lakeman win a traditional awrd wuth a self penned song.
at least COMHALTAS for all their faults have definitions.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Mrs_Annie
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:13 AM

There was some debate on the BBC board about whether The White Hare qualified as a traditional track. I, like many others, thought it was composed by SL, but on checking the CD notes, I found it described as trad/arr.
Very surprising. But I would have been even more surprised if the many people involved in the nominations hadn't checked it out thoroughly.

Does anyone know of the source song, and where it was found?


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Betsy
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:02 AM

As with all such award /self importance ceremonies - "They're all pissing in the same pot" as we sauy around here with one or two notable exceptions - who have been thrown in to make up the numbers.
Best live performer ?
For Vin Garbutt to come through and survive a very serious (non-standard ) Heart-op,whilst at the same time suffering an undetected ( burst) duodenal ulcer during the recuperation, and now being back on stage wowwing the audiences, with Traditional,self-penned and collected songs
combined with his unique humour.
There's no contest, what a live performer , and gives MORE value than the price of the entry ticket, but he won't win again, after "slagging-off" the establishment which the Folk "Hierarchy" and C.D.producers /distributors/shops are seemingly happy to support.

Cheers,

Betsy


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: melodeonboy
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:24 AM

I couldn't agree more with what you say about Vin, Betsy. He's been outstanding every time I've seen him perform.

As for you, Countess, I rarely agree with anything you say, so I'm genuinely pleased to tell you how much I enjoyed your comments on Lakeman's "ditty"; spot on!


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:41 AM

A Living Tradition?


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Grab
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:46 AM

Show of Hands - "folk music for people who don't like folk music"?

Yes, of course they're famous for their pop songs. Like Tall Ships, Cousin Jack, Galway Farmer, Country Life, Columbus didn't find America - oh wait... ;-)

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:49 AM

They have an incredible version of Seven Yellow Gypsies on a CD which starts as a studio version and is followed by a live version recorded with Indian musicians in India. Two traditions in one?


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 09:16 AM

I think there's a problem that anyone who is successful gets slagged off automatically by some people in the folk world, just because they are successful.

Artists like Seth Lakeman and Show of Hands are very talented and have worked hard to get where they are, just as Vin Garbutt and Martin Carthy before them. Show of Hands have been going for the best part of 20 years, so they are hardly an overnight success. Whether you like their music or not (and I do happen to like them), they have helped raise the profile of folk music with the general public, and IMO that has to be a good thing.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:29 AM

Seth Lakeman I'm sure is eminently hard-working, professional etc etc. The question which is raised, which I think is valid is: "What is a newly-written original song by Seth Lakeman doing in the "traditional" category?" The trouble is, if the traditional section becomes taken over by new songs, then we will have a re-run of the old "what does folk mean?" question, but this time we will need a new word to mean what the old "traditional " meant. Surely it would be much easier to confine the traditional category to traditional material.
   (I must declare a vested interest in this, I recorded a lot of traditional material this year. And it was traditional, really!)


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:54 AM

I wasn't talking particularly about the White Hare issue (I fully agree it's not right for a new song to be called traditional, and I would certainly question the BBC, if I was one of the other nominees for this particular award), but I've noticed a lot of slagging off of successful artists generally in this forum (Kate Rusby, Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands, etc.)

The comments in my last posting above really applied more to SOH, who as I said, have been around for the best part of 20 years now, have written some great songs and put on a cracking live show. It just seems that if someone works hard to get where they are, they get slagged off for their success instead of congratulated. Maybe there is a suspicion of sour grapes from some quarters (not you Greg, I hasten to add).


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:22 PM

Yes there is a traditional song called The White Hare. It's in Frank Kidson's Traditional Tunes 1891. It's not what the Lakeperson does. There was a thread only a few weeks ago in which several people (including me, I think) posted versions of the Cornish legend about some drippy woman turning into a rabbit and stalking a bloke who'd dumped her. The vid is sad (derogatory sense) or hilarious depending on what mood you're in when watching. It's a bland, trite pop song of formulaic structure based on a silly story.

Rabbits On A Beach


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:47 PM

So glad to hear the Royal family are doing well.....


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Hamish
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:43 PM

Re: Folk Radio UK's post: Mike H also played a track by The Queensberry Rules not so long ago. They're a great act (but the track he played didn't work for me...)

--
Hamish


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:08 AM

It's not so much the songs that Show of Hands sing, they perform them like wannabee pop stars.

eric


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:41 AM

I really, really don't care how hard, or for how long, certain people 'work'/have 'worked' - and I'm not envious of their 'sucess' - that's probably because I don't have the same mindset as the people who make this type of fatuous accusation. What does concern me, though, is when 'Folk Awards' are given to people who are performing a travesty of folk music or not even performing folk music at all but something more closely resembling pop music. IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU!!!


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:55 AM

Ah, the annual repeats of the same arguments are upon us, I see; must be the season. Not that I disagree with much that's been said, but I would have thought that the futility of it all might have dawned on us by now. In a genre as wide (and lending itself to such a wide set of diverse interpretations) as "folk" the chances of all of us agreeing on any single set of awards would be miniscule anyway. So we just end up agreeing or disagreeing that "X is good", where x= artist/song/album.

As this particular set of awards is industry-driven (it is fairly well known how the nominations are arrived at), to try and judge it by our (mainly) club-going folk standards makes little sense. It is what it is, it has the value that it has and no more. It can never truly represent such a diverse genre and it can never satisfy the different perceptions of the genre, from festivallers to club members, from revivalists to contemporarists (my word), from acoustic introspectors to tune-pedlars.

One way to see these awards is by the ticket you normally have to pay to see any of the acts nominated. I believe we are talking £8-£15 here, depending on the environment/venue. The £2-£7 range of artists is not represented - it cannot be, of course, in such industry-driven awards which reward commercial (monetary) impact.

But this does not make Bill Whaley & Dave Fletcher any less worthwhile, in my book, or any less involved in the continuancxe of the genre. Or Martyn Wyndham-Read, Johnny Collins, Dave Webber & Anni Fentiman, Ian Giles & Graham Metcalfe, Keith Kendrick, Lynne Heraud, Craig/Morgan/Robson, Robb Johnson, Leon Rosselson and so on.

Yes, you could argue that the highest paid acts are the best anyway, and this is proven by the higher ticket price they command. But remember - this is folk, where commercialism alone is not the sole criterium of value.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:20 AM

It's not so much the songs that Show of Hands sing, they perform them like wannabee pop stars

If they did want to be pop stars, I'm sure they could and would have achieved that by now - they have more than enough talent to do that if they want to. I don't see what's wrong with putting on an entertaining and professional show, whether we're talking about pop, folk or any other genre. Phil and Steve (and indeed Miranda) still play in 'proper' folk clubs as well as 'arts centre' or theatre venues, sometimes as solo artists, and sometimes with other bands. If you met them (as I have) you would realise they are as down to earth and friendly as most other folk performers I've met.

They are not trying to become pop stars IMO, just to provide what their fans want and make a living in the process. Can you blame them for wanting to do something different from time to time, after the best part of 20 years? They don't want to stand still in a 1970s timewarp.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:33 AM

George Papavgeris is quite right, this is an industry-led competition and designed to reward those most likely to consolidate the position of that industry. It is emphatically not an artistic competition. However, it is about music, and a specific genre at that: folk. It seems entirely right that the industry should recognise the Rusbys,Carthys and Lakemans that are creating the publicity. The rising tide, as Thatcher so aptly observed, will float all the boats equally (with the possible exceptpion of those of us with the lead weight of tradition tied round our ankles).
    But, and a big but: there is the question of which music belongs to the genre. And in particular, to the sub-genre defined as traditional. And to attempt to reward contemporary compositions under this heading seems plain perverse. Why Lakeman, in any case? If his compositions are to be labelled "Traditional folk", I would suggest that the Arctic Monkeys material is in precisely the same genre, and arguably of equal or even superior quality.
   I am not suggesting the Arctic Monkeys should definitely be in the category, merely that if Lakeman's songs should go in, so should theirs.
    Other than that curious and ridiculous decision, I am all for the awards. Of course we won't agree, a bit of controversy is fine. And we can all choose the records we buy, and whether they are award winners' material, or more esoteric stuff, is entirely up to us. I may say that I have loads of records of obscure ethnic goatherds, but also most of the recordings of an extremely prolific award winner from the justly famous Royal Family.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:42 PM

I've just listened to Mike Harding's programme on Listen Again.
I don't know about the awards, I heard some music I like, some I don't much care for on the programme. But I'm happy for anything that gets people listening to folk of all kinds.

What infuriated me was the way he played it. Little clips of everyone nominated.

I it is worth nominating for an award its worth playing a whole track.

But he just got us interested in the story that the song was telling, then jolted us into something else.
Very clever no doubt, but not good listening.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:37 AM

From my age perspective, what ever that means, I cannot see why the Baot Band are not up for Young Folk Band of the Year.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:41 AM

And I want to form an "old boy" band - the New Block For The Kids.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Hamish
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:40 AM

My band will be called A Chip Off the Old Shoulder.   ;-)


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Eric
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:27 PM

This thread [like may others] reminds me why I dip into mudcat instead of being a regular visitor. There is a load of music out in the world which gets called folk or people call folk because they are not able to think of another label [the US seems to have similar problems to the UK with this]. Most of it I like and it is much better [to me] than the stuff that ends up in the so called pop or rock domain. I am just glad it is available and I do not see why people are continually knocking it because it isn't quite this or that. What if we did not have the Mike Harding programme or the awards? Would we be better off? I doubt it but I know some of the people who write to this list would really like to keep it all in their own dark room and are worried if other people share it. Music is for enjoyment. i had never heard of SOH until recently but I saw them on Sunday in Gateshead and thought they [and Martyn Joseph their support] were great and they were certainly what i think of as folk music.

Eric [and definitely not the Red]


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM

Dear 'GUEST,Eric' it may surprise you to know that your delightfully 'fluffy' world view is not shared by everyone. Far from keeping our favourite music in a "dark room" we would like to share it with the world - unfortunately the BBC and Mr Harding have other ideas and would rather broadcast unchallenging, 'commercial', vaguely poppy sort of stuff. Still, at least it keeps uncritical, easily satisfied, 'easy listening' fans like you happy ...


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:14 PM

There is a load of music out in the world which gets called folk or people call folk because they are not able to think of another label

Yes, it can be defined generally as:

(a) stuff composed in their bedrooms by angst-ridden teenagers who once lived next door to someone who once owned an acoustic guitar, and they have emerged, convinced that the world owes them a living, and

(b) pseudo-celticky, wifty-wafty new-agey crap.

What about (to wildly embrace all there is): 'music from out there rooted in a tradition) as a definition?

SoH consists of a really good multi-instrumentalist, Phil Beer, who has been involved in many excellent projects over the years, and Steve Knightley who is quite a good songwriter. I find what they do together very bland but, presumably, it pays their bills.

Martin Joseph might please some but to me he's a god-obsessed crooner. There's an awful lot of under-represented Welsh trad out there (Twm Twp, Bragod, Julie Murphy, Mary Humphreys for starters . . . )

Where would we be without Mike Harding? To be fair to him, if he was a BBC (i.e. PSB) presenter with some say in programme content (as opposed to a puppet for an outsourced production company), he might be SOME use. As he's not he's best ignored. BBC R3 is the only place to hear folk music: Late Junction, Andy Kershaw and World Routes.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:16 PM

I think Shimrod's neo-liberal attitude is what stops us all from returning the music to the people. All forms of mass communication should be distroyed, leaving the oral tradition as the only way to pass on the music of the people.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:17 PM

Amen to that, Les, amen to that! Although achieving that ideal might prove to be a tiny bit tricky.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 04:29 AM

Shim, is it that ever elusive engine of change?


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:15 AM

Les, your messages grow ever more cryptic! What I think you may mean is, 'am I frightened of change' (?) Well, yes, actually - although 'wary and not blindly accepting of' may be a better description of my attitude to change/progress. There are several reasons for this:

(i) Change is an entropic process and, hence, inevitably leads to loss (of information, value, quality etc.). We should not embrace it blindly.

(ii) Progress is often just a 'figleaf' for greed. In my lifetime I have had to watch both the urban and rural environments being degraded and destroyed for no very good reason except for profits for the few.

(iii) In this country public services have been subjected to so much unecessary change that they no longer work any more. Just look at the state of education, the health service, public transport etc., etc.

(iv) Many destructive changes to our environment and way of life have been wrought in the name of fashion - not necessity. Most of the people in public office seem to be insanely ambitious careerists who feel compelled to make their mark whatever the cost or long term consequences of their actions. For such people it's much easier to be fashionable than sensible.

I see the same forces at work in popular culture. I believe that commercial Rock/Pop music is both infantile and infantilising. I also believe (contentious bastard that I am!) that this type of infantile music is one of the factors that has led to drunken, drug soaked yob culture that we see all around us. And the same bollocks (technical philosophical term) is used to justify it - commercial viability and fashion.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:12 AM

Shimrod,

I think I agree with almost all that you have written.

Do we feel we have a haven away from the evil musical industry in the world of folk? Yes, I think we do, but it is on a continuum with all other music. The social context that enabled old songs to survive and evolve in 18C and 19C rural communities has gone but I can listen to the songs on my Ipod. Not the same but the songs and tunes still excite.

I think the original complaint against "The White Hare" is fair - by most definitions it is not a traditional song. What S of H get up to is up to them.

Most young people who play in self generated guitar bands learn through an oral tradtion, make no money and have fun in their own social context. I don't think the music generates the drug scene any more than folk music causes beer abuse, but then again folkies do sup a bit?


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:43 AM

Hi Les,

I think that we may be coming to a consensus.

Far be it from me to seek to stop young people having fun in "self generated guitar bands" - it's just that, to me, their music seems to be a bit impoverished, that's all.

As for music generating the drug scene - well, I did say that I thought that it was one of the factors - an hypothesis worth exploring, perhaps?


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:08 AM

"There is a load of music out in the world which gets called folk or people call folk because they are not able to think of another label

Yes, it can be defined generally as:

(a) stuff composed in their bedrooms by angst-ridden teenagers who once lived next door to someone who once owned an acoustic guitar, and they have emerged, convinced that the world owes them a living, and

(b) pseudo-celticky, wifty-wafty new-agey crap."


Countess, I agree with you, but you are about ten years out of date. I haven't heard any new-agey crap for years, or angsty teenagers who think the world owes them a living. The trend now is for late-thirty-something ex-punks going "back to their roots". Or, anyone from america with a "wyrd" voice.

Also, since John Leonard is no longer the producer of the Mike Harding Show - he has been replaced day-to-day by Kellie While, Mike has a lot more of a say in what gets played these days. The stuff that gets aired is what he wants to play now. Which is fair enough, its his programme and he repeatedly wins the contract whenever his slot is up for tender by the BBC. There are internet radio stations that play 'proper' folk music 24/7 and they are free and just as easy to listen to. Whats to complain about??


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Nellie Clatt
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:19 AM

Yeah he probably wins the tender because he puts in the cheapest tender, he can do this because he merely plays the same things over and over again, Mike Harding is a very fine misician, singer and songwriter, but he is a total CRAP broadcaster, he is long overdue for retirement and should be replaced with someone with more of an understanding of good folk music unlike Mike who thinks his only criteria is to improve audience figures, and if he has to play ' pop ' type music to do it ,       then that is his idea of good broadcasting.


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Subject: RE: Review: Folk Awards - Mike Harding
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:21 AM

Some peopleseem to think I am being a bit noninclusive, a bit folk nazi, by not wishing to see Lakeman's self-penned ditty in the traditional section of the awards. Far from it, it is the "White Hare" supporters who are being noninclusive. Because, if they are to include Lakeman's recent compostions, how about the entire very creative world of British songwriters churning out hits both popular and well-written? Are they getting a look in? No sir, not a single chart composer has made it into the traditional section. Now, why is this?


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