BS: anger - addictive?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 08:22 PM

You may be a victim of senile agitation

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:41 PM

What amazes me is that there are those who prioritize the lifestyle over the child.

The other thing is that I had the realisation that if my daughter deserves better, then perhaps I do too.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:36 PM

... or flight. I fought a lot in the lower grades. I kinda enjoyed it but a part of my mind (the "Super Ego" in Freudian terms, no doubt) would cooly look at the situation and I would think, "This is really something stupid I'm getting myself into." About the third time I got my nose broken, I decided to start listening to that inner voice. After all, it was smarter than the part of me that thought fighting was fun!

lox, isn't it amazing how something like a darling baby daughter can re-prioritize your life? In the 12 step madel this would be your "Higher Power" though I am disinclined to use their nomenclature. Rather its when one gains the right perspective everything else lines up behind it. You can go on and find deeper, more general principles than the frail and temporary (regardless of how precious) conditions of life. Once you have a foundation under you, you want it to be as firm as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:52 PM

"As you become angry your body's muscles tense up. Inside your brain, neurotransmitter chemicals known as catecholamines are released causing you to experience a burst of energy lasting up to several minutes. This burst of energy is behind the common angry desire to take immediate protective action. At the same time your heart rate accelerates, your blood pressure rises, and your rate of breathing increases. Your face may flush as increased blood flow enters your limbs and extremities in preparation for physical action. Your attention narrows and becomes locked onto the target of your anger. Soon you can pay attention to nothing else. In quick succession, additional brain neurotransmitters and hormones (among them adrenaline and noradrenaline) are released which trigger a lasting state of arousal. You're now ready to fight."

From: http://mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=5805&cn=116

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:42 PM

Guest,

I am more than satisfied with your response and I agree that it is a crime that the Stigma attached to mental health issues and addiction means that they are politically ineffective issues uppon which to campaign or win favour from the public with.

In this regard, they come second to political trump cards like Law and order/paranoia.

There are more votes in telling the ignorant that you'll save them from druggies and schizo's than there are in telling them that you're going to invest more money in trying to succesfully rehabilitate addicts and the mentally Ill.

Consequently (here in the UK), when the health service needs to be savaged to free up more cash, the first target is mental health. Wards closed, staff sacked and initiatives undermined.

It makes me extremely angry when I think about it.


To Refresh my original idea in my mind, I find that the thought was inspired by the following phenomenon.

I had gone through a nightmare and whilst caught up in it I had found that I was becoming more and more susceptible to feelings of rage. A natural enough state of affairs you will no doubt agree.

That rage kind of became normality while my despicable situation continued. Again, a fairly predictable reality.

The weird bit was that after the situation ended, and the rage simmering in me began to subside, I began to feel a craving for it to come back and I would artificially induce that state of mind by focusing on a thought that affected me that way.

I felt a craving for a physical sensation that I expected the feeling of rage to induce.

I used to smoke cigarettes - about 30 a day for about 15 years, but gave up when my daughter was born two and a half years ago. I didn't cut down or phase them out, I simply didn't ever have one more cigarette. I never will now either, because I feel 1000% healthier in every possible way.

I felt the craving physically like a tingle in my scalp, especially when there were other smokers around, but like slag I was simply not interested in having any more.

Interestingly, giving cigarettes up never caused me to be irritable, in fact the first 6 months after giving up were about the greatest of my life as I was completely overcome with love for my daughter and every day with her was heaven (as is still the case today).

Anyway - so I am qualified to assert that I know how a physical/chemical addiction feels. I have also had minor skirmishes with various "recreational" drugs when I was younger and I am therefore also aware of the power that chemicals have, both psychologically and physically.

I can state with absolute honesty that I caught myself one day recently deliberately inducing an artificial sate of rage in myself so as to somehow satiate a physical craving. The thing that stopped me though was again the thought of my little one, for thought she has never had any form of rage directed at her, she must put up with me while I walk around with a cloud over my head, impatient to and intolerant of otherwise innocent behaviour on her part.

The other thing I noticed was that I was having to induce more intense feelings of rage to satiate the craving and that that process was giving me a bloody headache.

Reading this back, I'm actually laughing out loud at myself. I've caricatured myself in such a way that I'm now seeing me as some kind of dastardly dick character from the wacky races.

Anyway, I now enjoy not having a headache so much that, withh a smile in the direction of my litle girl, I consciously and calmly reject the invitation to rage that my brain gives me from time to time.

I feel free.

I have to say thugh iin all seriousness that the craving did feel chemical.

Probably comppletely unsupportable, but I felt worth a shot :')

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

Again, I believe "loss of control" to be the hallmark of addiction. It is the behavior that takes over control (which is to say that the addicted person is out of control). The alcoholic hides booze here and there so he can get to it quickly and easily and UNSEEN. The nicotine addicted get very nervous if a cigaret is not in reach. The junkie is out looking for his fix. The "mechanics" of addiction must be a highly complex thing. There are, it seems, bio-physical potentials for such addiction. I remember reading that an actual gene for alcoholism has been identified. This affects about 10% of the population. If you are in that 10% and take that first drink, its "game over". The only thing you can do is never, under any circumstances, drink Etoh again.

But then you come up against the pyschological addiction. There is no identifiable substance external to the body. So maybe its cortico-steroids/adrenalin or endorphins that the person is "geting off" on. OK but why then anger? Why not skydiving? or boxing or any other thing that kicks up the adrenal output? Is this somehow like autism? A kind of mental masterbation? I would imagine that someone addicted to anger would become a master at pushing people's buttons to provoke conflict and receive their reward or pay-off. If they HAVE mastered this ability it would be hard to detect at first. But seen over a span of time the pattern of hidden agenda would become obvious then on to the next victim.

Even though the modeling of the complex mechanism is imperfect the overall picture of addiction emerges. You have a person who has a COMPULSION to behave in a certain way that provides him (or her) with a payoff which is apparently an altered state of conscienous.

The destructiveness of the addiction is directly related to the degree of compulsion. This may come about slowly or it may have a drastic rapidity. Disregard for social conventions comes about because eventually all things become subordinate to this cycle of stimulous (the action)/response (the payoff).

Anecdotely, I began to smoke cigarets when I was twelve and by the time I was eighteen I had a two and a half pack a day habit. I never thought anything of it. I smoked. That was all. I smoked. Without going into my personal history, I'll just say that I had a life altering experience that re-prioritized my life. It had nothing to do directly with smoking but as a result I stopped smoking, cold turkey! I no longer had a psychological need for cigarets but my body had adapted to nicotine. For weeks I would notice my hand going to my shirt pocket. I was amazed! I had no idea that I had become physically addicted to the stuff! I felt NO DESIRE to smoke, ever again but there was my hand going to the cigaret pocket. I was fascinated by the phenomenon. Eventually that passed too. It may be hubris but I know and feel within myself that nothing in this world could addict me. That is, with God's help.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for that GUEST lox, and I do not agree that something is either addictive or not.

   Lots of people work and while most people do not, some people do, become addicted to it.

   A few people have sex, and while some become sex addicts, many do not.

   Most people get angry from time to time. Only some from that class are addicted to anger.


   Addiction plays a role in the addicts life, has a function. Those without any given addiction don't require (consciously or unconsciously) that role to be played. Addicts do.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:37 PM

It also depends which direction you are approaching addiction from, as lox points out above.

If you are a cognitive behavior therapist, you are going to talk about addictions differently than a substance abuse therapist talks about addictions.

To me, the great danger of putting anger in the addiction column, is that people with substance abuse addictions will lose out on getting treatment, because there are only so many slices in the resource pie.

As it is, untreated substance addiction, domestic violence, untreated mental illness--all three of which end up making a lot of people victims of violence and/or make them homeless, is at unprecedented levels in the US, because of budget cuts that date back to the Reagan era.

Now, anger is a component of all of the above. However, you can't realistically isolate the anger as the problem in alcoholism or autism, just as a couple of for instances, you still wouldn't get to the root of the problem.

So I'm not in favor of trying to isolate these compulsive behaviors, and then equate them with the more severe illnesses, like cocaine addiction or bipolar disorder. I know it sounds awful, but we do have to pick and choose where to put the resources these days, because greedy jerks have forced the budgetary hands.

Also, both substance addiction and mental illness have come to be viewed as "criminal" behavior in most peoples' minds these days, which makes it even harder to get more resources going their way. Same has been true for AIDs treatment.

I sincerely hope that all this will change under the new Congress, but I'm deeply cynical that it will. I don't see the Democrats having any stronger will to do what is right than Republicans when it comes to substance addiction, domestic violence, AIDs, mental illness, homelessness. It's as if no one in power thinks our society owes people who suffer a fucking thing.

When you work with and/or love and are related to people who suffer from any of those things, these are very, very dark times.

I know there are a lot of raging assholes out there. Road rage is out of control. I know all that. I too know some people who engage in those behaviors. But still, it isn't as bad, as desperate a need as someone with untreated bipolar disorder, or a cocaine addict spiraling out of control and taking the people they come in contact with down with them.

Or the mentally ill going into Quaker elementary schools, and murdering little girls.

You know what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:24 PM

Maybe it would be a good time to re view and asses the definition of addiction.   Definition by stipulation, inclusion, exclusion, cultural nuance, etc. Dictataes the course of the discussion. Here is where we need agreement to make this a meaningful exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 01:15 PM

Ivor,

I have to confess that on this point GUEST seems to have been pretty fair.

Something is either addictive or it isn't. In terms of substance abuse, a substance is either addictive or it isn't. There are no might be's when it comes to chemical reactions. Either one will occur or it won't.

It is fair to say that somebody "might" become addicted to a substance, though that would only apply if the substance were an addictive one.

If somebody uses an adictive substance frequently over an extended period of time, then it is likely that they will become addicted to it.

They definitely won't become addicted to a non addictive substance though.

Do you see the distinction?


GUEST

I suppose the impasse we have reached was inevitable.

The whole personality disorder (compulsive behaviour), alcoholism and drug addiction quagmire, with all the overlaps and individually tailored disorder combinations is a confusing business.

Personality disorders and addiction are intrinsically linked and intertwined, while sufferers tend to exhibit similar behaviour.

They are both illnesses which can be treated with a combination of the right chemicals and the right counselling.

The study of personality disorders is very much in its infancy.

I would suggest too much so for anyone to categorically draw a clear line separating addiction from compulsive behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:08 PM

One last go.

   No, to say that an emotion can be addictive
does NOT mean therefore that an emotion is addictive.

   An emotion can be addictive depending on what's
going on with the person concerned.

   Others can have the same emotion without it being
or becoming addictive.

   The slide from one to the other that GUEST makes
is illegitimate, doesn't follow, isn't necessarily
the case. To elide the two is a straw man. I think
GUEST will know what that means, being an educated
person. That elision has nothing to do with what I
think (or said).

   Incidentally, that kind of insisting that another
poster is saying something different from what they
either said or meant, is one of many ways of diluting
and skewing and undermining much chance of progress
in our discussions.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:22 AM

There can be many legitimate medical reasons that a person may have trouble expressing anger appropriately. Brain injury, fetal alcohol syndrome, mental illness like bipolar disorder, aubstance addiction, Tourette's syndrome, etc.

Approximately 1/3 of those who suffer from depression have difficulty expressing anger appropriately. But then, most all who suffer from depression have difficulty expressing most emotions appropriately while in the midst of a depressive episode.

so lox, if I am understanding you (and you keep insisting I am not, because you are pretty adamnant I am not getting what you are saying) you seem to be saying that some people just get off on being angry, and so get angry for kicks? For some power tripping purpose?

Sure, I can agree with that too. But I wouldn't call that behavior an addiction, because in my opinion, that is an incorrect usage of the word 'addiction'. I see addiction as being caused by ingestion of an addictive substance, not a compulsive behavior.

So perhaps we could either agree to disagree, or if we agree, agree to call the manifestation of angry behavior of which you speak a "compulsive behavior" rather than an "addiction". I can get on board with that.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 11:34 PM

"lox, perhaps you don't know much about how medical researchers and scientists come to their conclusions. That's ok."

Another unfounded assertion.



"As to your question "how would I explain...", the answer is, I'm not trying to explain that, you are."

Actually, I'm looking for an explanation, in fact I am looking for several, ideally conflicting ones so that some scrutiny can be said to have beeen applied.


In fact, that's the whole point of this thread in this public forum.

Maybe addiction is one answer, maybe there's another.

Your answer "No it isn't" ... ok ... then what... ?



"that may piss you off no end because you had already decided you have every reason to believe that "anger addiction" is an actual medical diagnosis"

And another unfounded assertion ... can you leave off the unfounded assertions and tell me what you know? someone?

"they don't use anecdotal evidence to come to their conclusions."

Without anecdotal evidence there would be much less to investigate. Scientists do investigate anecdotal evidence and though it is statistically unreliable and limited in it's value that is not the same as saying that it has none.

Adrenaline is addictive, or so it has been observed and anger causes an increase in the production of it.

Perhaps indirectly Anger could be argued to be addictive on that basis to someone who doesn't have many other opportunities to stimulate its production.


There are safe ways of getting an adrenaline hit and dangerous ways. Rollercoasters and pub fights for example.

The excitement of a football match could be healthy for the player on the pitch, but unhealthy for the hooligan in the crowd.

Anecdotal evidence is useful in minimizing errors - for example in prescribing the correct drugs for patients where their condition is resistant to the effects of one but not another. This is why there is not a blanket prescription for all depression for example, but each patient requires a specific set menu of chemicals.

Likewise, different people need diferent stimuli to elicit an adrenaline rush.

Rollercoasters might not do it for you. You might need to get stuck in on the terraces against your rival firm of football fans.

In which case your behaviour could be said to be addictive.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:55 PM

Thanks LH for chopping it up into bite size pieces, digestable by ADD patients, small children and the ocassional Chimp or Bonobo. Easy Chongo, Jane wants to twist again like she did last summer.


I have to admit that GUEST really astounds me. It is either some kind of a joke he (gender is my guess, forgive me if I'm wrong) is perpetuating or he really doesn't understand even the most basic rudiments of logic.

To dismiss an argument because of form is like a 5 year old throwing a fit because things aren't going his way. No fact, no evidence no logical argument. Nothing. Just "Blah, Blah, Blah".   This tells me that GUEST is either dihonest or uneducated and certainly immature.

You blast Oprah and Dr. Phil and then you give credence to Bill Moyers. My own opinion of Moyers is that he is about on the same level as Phil Donahue and believe me, that is NOT a compliment. That, however is a tangent that I don't want to pursue on this thread so I say again, that just my opinion. You, however cite him as some kind of authority without giving his credentials. Bye the bye, I happen to agree with the diease model of addiction.

Here is an alert from the halls of academia: Yes, anger is percieved in the brain---Along with ANYTHING that is percieved. Perception is a function of the human brain (and some rather smart chimps' brains too!). So that is a tautology and hence a fallacy. Q.E.D.

You claim,"... the current scientific research on the brain and addiction doesn't support the contention of most people in this thread, that anger is perceived in the brain as an addictive stimulus, like it shows with cocaine, nicotine, etc" (sic) but you cite no source. How are we to know this is true? So far its just an assertion by you. And the grammar alone muddies the water and makes it difficult to understand what the point is that you are trying to make.

You leave me with many unanswered questions. I don't really have but a vague notion of what your profession is or what your educational back ground is. And, lest you fault me for the same, I might point out that it was you who alluded to yourself as some sort of appeal-to-authority to enhance your opinion.

I'm not saying that you don't have a logical basis for what you believe, its just that you haven't really shared it with us!

re "catharsis": cleansing one's soul and clearing the air can be a helpful thing for all concerned. The Apostle Paul said "Be angry, and sin not." Eph 4:26. Anger that does not stay focused on the point of provocation can be very destructive even though the one who rages may feel a chatartic release. The frequency with which anger is expressed, it's effect on those around it and how wide ranging it is are all clues to the true nature of the angry person. It could be an addiction. It could be a form of mental illness. It could be an indicaator of a pysiological problem and only a true professional can make that determination (such as the onset of Alzheimer's). This is a very good thread and there have been some really great observations made. It is a good discussion. Flippancy and "anger" per se should not be a part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:52 PM

lox, perhaps you don't know much about how medical researchers and scientists come to their conclusions. That's ok.

But so you know, they don't use anecdotal evidence to come to their conclusions.

As to your question "how would I explain...", the answer is, I'm not trying to explain that, you are.

Listen, anger is a symptom of some mental illness, but as far as I know, it is not an addiction to anyone except psychologists trying to peddle it as such in order to drum up more business.

I don't think much of the social sciences when it comes to this sort of thing, and since working for a group of neurosurgeons in a major university teaching hospital, I don't think too much of psychologists, either.

Now, that may piss you off no end because you had already decided you have every reason to believe that "anger addiction" is an actual medical diagnosis, but I'm here to tell you it is not. I've also never heard of an insurance company that pays for addiction treatment for anger, either.

The only "legitimate" treatment (if you could call it legitimate, I wouldn't) I've ever seen is behavior modification therapy which is widely reputed not to be very effective at "curing" the so-called anger addiction.

One example of that is what is known as the Duluth Model for treating men convicted of domestic abuse and assault.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:39 PM

To complete that point,

How would you explain an irrational and compulsive desire to create an artificial state of anger, so as - perhaps - to benefit from the 'positive' effects eg sense of catharsis, power, superiority, or ultimately (and being involved with kids you'll understand the pull of this last one) attention.

All this despite the knowledge (that experience brings) that ultimately all it does is give you a headache at best and get you into serious trouble at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:37 PM

"I'm rejecting it on the grounds that it is anecdotal evidence wrapped in personal and popular belief."

This is not grounds to make a judgement.

It is a judgement in itself.

Made on what grounds?

My original post was an idea that I had that I felt was worth floating to see what what kind of reaction it got from people.

No prior belief, either personal or influenced by popular culture was involved.

"Your anecdotes, and the anecdotes of the others here posting about people they know who are angry all the time, are not evidence of any condition, except a very human one: someone is isn't very happy with their life."

Let's say that some of the testimony here is reliable despite it's apparent anecdotal form.

How would you explain an irrational and compulsive desire to create an artificial state of anger, so as - perhaps - to benefit from the 'positive' effects eg sense of catharsis, power, superiority, or ultimately (and being involved with kids you'll understand the pull of this last one) attention.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

I'm rejecting it on the grounds that it is anecdotal evidence wrapped in personal and popular belief.

Your anecdotes, and the anecdotes of the others here posting about people they know who are angry all the time, are not evidence of any condition, except a very human one: someone is isn't very happy with their life.

People who are angry all the time aren't addicts. They aren't in need of medical treatment the way addicts are, because emotions, even strong ones, don't cause chemical and cellular changes to the brain.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:08 PM

"Not really, no."

Well then you are rejecting not just my testimony, but that of a few others as false.

On what grounds?

"This seems to be a rhetorical question with no right answer"

It wasn't rhetorical, but I agree that the answer isn't simple.

"and has no bearing, to my way of thinking, to the original question posed here"

Go back and read my first post and look for a consistent theme that exists there and in my last post and you will have your answer.

"I'm pretty damn baffled at what your agenda was for starting this thread"

I refer you to the first post again - the agenda is pretty clearly spelled out.

"I don't think you and the others here with what looks an awful lot like pseudo-radical behaviorist tinged popular beliefs about anger, wanted to hear or likely even discuss the answer I gave."

How have you arrived at that conclusion?

"C'est la guerre." translates as "that's war for you" (literally "It is the war")

You've resigned yourself to the reality of what war exactly?



Look - I'm justifying myself as opposed to my point. I'm defending my integrity in the face of assumptions about my intentions.



So you're not actually an expert on addiction.

What do you actually know about me?


Why do you keep coming back to this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:50 PM

"Do you accept that there are people who deliberately stoke their own anger and feed it like some growling beast within themselves."

Not really, no.

"Why do people go looking for arguments, or in some cases violence (not boxers, but guys who go out to get drunk and get dangerous)"

This seems to be a rhetorical question with no right answer, and has no bearing, to my way of thinking, to the original question posed here, which was, as I read it, can angry behavior be defined as an addictive behavior.

My answer to that question, is no.

As to your last post, I'm pretty damn baffled at what your agenda was for starting this thread.

I took your initial question at face value. I don't think you and the others here with what looks an awful lot like pseudo-radical behaviorist tinged popular beliefs about anger, wanted to hear or likely even discuss the answer I gave.

C'est la guerre.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:40 PM

A cool response and a breath of fresh air into my crippled thread.

Do you accept that there are people who deliberately stoke their own anger and feed it like some growling beast within themselves.

Why do people go looking for arguments, or in some cases violence (not boxers, but guys who go out to get drunk and get dangerous)

What need compels people to post to threads like "closed threads and deleted posts", this one, the kramer one etc while calmer threads get overlooked.

I'm gonna walk around today with a goddam face like goddam thunder and people better get out of my way. I'm gonna think about all the goddam things that get up my nose and stew and seethe ... oops ... distraction ... now what was I angry about again ... aahhh yes ... I remember .. that no good Goddam sunnuvabitch ... growl growl ... etc etc etc."

or "I wonder if there's a good fight going on down the mudcat today?"

"DON'T TELL ME TO CALM DOWN - GET THEM KIDS OUTTA HERE - IF YOU TELL ME TO CALM DOWN AGAIN I'M GONNA HIT YOU SO HARD ... etc etc etc ..."


Physiological? What about temper tantrums as a way of dealing with stress - as opposed to the alexander technique, peppermint tea or a Marlboro?

This hasn't been the most coherent post, but it illustrates a consistent point.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:37 PM

I'm not an expert, but I have a professional interest in the brain and behavior, as I work with a lot of kids in special education.

I use stuff that is pretty clear, concise and comes from medical and scientific sources. I'm subscribed to Web MD, for instance, and use it probably more often than any other source when it comes to do some quick and preliminary research, and sometimes for more in depth reading about a particular study.

My interest isn't really in addiction at all, but kids and their learning disabilities, and what does and doesn't work in helping them. Because so many kids with learning disabilities had parents with substance addictions that wreaked havoc with their brain development in utero, you can't really get into the search for what will help them, until you know something about what has hurt them to begin with.

That said, someone I greatly admire and whose scholarship I respect is Bill Moyers. He did a very good program on addiction for PBS awhile back. There is still good information from it here.

I first became interested in all this when I was attending university in the 1990s, and worked for a neurosurgeon at the university's hospital.

So there you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:23 PM

Please show where I said anger was ALWAYS cathartic?

I said it was the best side-effect of anger. Just spewing is never productive.

Way back up in the thread, I challenged those of you who keep insisting that anger can become an addiction, to come up with some other observable manifestations of anger. No one responded with any. So I put a list out there. No one responded to that either.

That tells me the "anger = addiction" folks here aren't the least bit interested in learning anything. They are looking for people to agree with their beliefs about the emotion we call anger.

That ain't a search for the truth. That's swimming upstream in that river called denial.

This isn't a discussion about what is medically and scientifically known about addiction, substance or behavioral (for all you Pavlov and Skinner fans out there).

Of course, knowing how the political discussions go around here, it isn't in the least bit surprising to see what a Skinner slant folks here have to their radical behaviourist beliefs about anger.

I'm more of a physiological and philisophical bent, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:20 PM

GUEST

You haven't actually supplied us with any of the scientific information you claim to be in possession of.

All you have done is take an opposing stance to the "sweeping statement", as you describe it, that Anger is addictive.

Actually, the Title of this thread is a question not a statement -

"BS: anger - addictive?"

You have also not dealt with the questions that interested parties such as myself and Slag have posed, merely ignoring Slag on the one hand and demanding to see my credentials on the other.

What are your credentials and which website can I look up to make sure you're telling the truth (being a professional you will of course be attached to some kind of research facility or treatment centre?

Once you have established that perhaps you can explain the flaws in the posts here that express a view that is different to yours.

Being of open mind and keen to learn about this subject (the reason why I initiated this thread) I would of course be very grateful for the benefit of your expertise.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:08 PM

GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:45 PM

Sorry folks, the post I have just referred to specifically was from me, not the previous GUEST (Mr Angry there's no such thing as anger addiction and if you disagree I'll scream and scream etc )

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:00 PM

Blah, blah, blah Mick. I'm not listening, and you are preaching to your choir.

Now, if you have something actually on-topic to this thread to say that doesn't involve me...

No, I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:56 PM

Sez youse, eh 7:45? And your expert credentials are...?

I ain't buying.

Simply put, the current scientific research on the brain and addiction doesn't support the contention of most people in this thread, that anger is perceived in the brain as an addictive stimulus, like it shows with cocaine, nicotine, etc.

Even the so-called "gambling addiction" hypothese has been debunked.

So like I said, I consider the claim to be about as legitimate as any of the popular beliefs about these "psychology" claims out there.

Too much Oprah and Dr Phil.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:51 PM

You missed 100, Chongo. Guest beat you to it by a few seconds.

Boy, he's really ticked now. Chongo, I mean. Poor little guy is climbing the walls here... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM

I just can't stay away. GUEST keeps drawing me back with this amazing show of intellect. I have learned a couple of things.

-First, apparently I have superhuman powers. I only need speak, and all the rest of you will lose all semblance of rational thought and use of intellect. You will then wait as drones to do my bidding. It is wonderful to know that I have this power. If I had known you were all mindless a long time ago, I would be much further ahead in life. Stand by, drones, to do my bidding.

-Second, I now understand rage. I had always thought that these feelings I had were known as mild amusement. I now know that the feeling I get when I watch someone demonstrate what they truly are is known as rage. I must admit that I have had a lot of this feeling lately, as I watch folks take the piss on GUEST. Thanks for straightening me out on this. This rage thing is a delightful feeling (he says with tongue planted firmly in cheek)

You see, MN, that is your problem. You are so lost in your anger and real rage, toss in a huge amount arrogance as well, that you think everyone here is stupid and incapable of their own ability to discern fact from bullshit. You honestly believe that if they don't agree with you, then they must be dumbass, delusional fools. I don't. More than once they have brought me up short, and made me realize an error of my ways. Other times we have agreed. I respect folks opinions. You do only when they agree with you.

And that is why you are a poster child for the subject of this thread. And one with a long, traceable history.

OK, I really am out of here now.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM

100!!!!

You think you know about ANGER???? HAH!!! I'll show you anger, you stinkin', low-life, crab-infested human slime! One day the apes will take over and we'll put you all in CAGES! YEAH! See how you like it, hairless! You stink. Your society stinks. And we apes are gonna put you in your place!

Have a peanut, jerk-face!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:45 PM

"I find it odd that not one person has mentioned the most wonderful side effect of anger: catharsis."

That's like saying - No one has mentioned that gambling is really exciting when you win.

Anger is not always cathartic. It often gets people into a bigger mess than they were in to start with, with greater pressures to deal with as a result.

So the "buzz" is catharsis.

A fairly compelling argument in support of the view that expresssing ones anger in order to enjoy catharsis may well be an addictive practice.

Addiction = "Habitual psychological and physiological dependence on a substance or PRACTICE beyond one's voluntary control."

Stress is a definite physiological concern. If you find yourself relying more and more on stoking up your anger so that you can get that all consuming and liberating catharsis as a way of dealing with stress then that would constitute an physiologically addictive practice.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:40 PM

Well, Slag, apparently our Guest couldn't read it. Too difficult without the breaks. Okay...here is is again with breaks put in, just for you, Guest! ;-)

I'll probably draw a lot of fire for this but...

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA and HA!!!

LOL and etc.

What a great debate for this thread. No personal attacks here. And Q.E.D. Addiction is a compulsion, a compulsory, often ritualistic behavior.

There are physical addictions as with nicotine or narcotics and there are psychological addictions of which anger may be one. There are also psychoneural conditions such as OCD that resemble addiction but are treatable with certain drugs and psychotherapy.

The hallmark of an addiction is the person's inability to alter or stop the behavior. Denial is often central to the continuation of the addiction. The sufferer sees himself and his behavior as "normal" and will marshall rationalizations and argument to support his view.

This also often incorporates a social support system that aids and abets the denial and smooths over any of the destructiveness the behavior may cause. It is the basis for the concept of dysfunction. Those who do not share in the dysfunction will instinctively or knowingly avoid the addict and his enablers which tends to isolate and intensifiy the problem.

In severe cases the addicted person drives off his support resources and "hits bottom". This is usually the make or break moment where the person must either confront the addictive behavior or be lost forever to it. If it is chemical dependence, said chemistries will destroy their physical life. If it is "rage," assualt and battery charges may be in the offing and the criminal justice system becomes the confronting "bottom' and if realization does not take place there are prisons for warehousing angry young (and old) men. That is , if someone doesn't shoot them in self defense first.

There are a lot of worthy tomes out there on this subject and its NOT pop-psychology. There is a lot of common sense and logic at work here and if YOU rale against the notion, you might ask yourself, what it is that you are trying to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:32 PM

Just for fun I reread my 3:51 post and as it is a summary of the nature of addiction, I don't believe a paragraph break is warranted! Any grammarians to the contrary?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:25 PM

Slag's post at 3:50, that is...

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:16 PM

Too bad you didn't read it. You missed the best post on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:15 PM

Gee, how did I miss THAT?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM

No pain. I just didn't read it. Don't care about poor grammar, typos, punctuation and that stuff. But the paragraph break is a no brainer.

But since y'all are just being assholes now, I'm not really reading what you are posting anyway. And you fellas might not have noticed it yet, but Mick's big footin' his way in here shut down the thread a long time ago anyway.

Then he says he is leaving.

Then he is back to congratulate the posters still around trying to slag me.

So you see, this thread has been all about Mick Lane all afternoon. This is what he does best. Ruin things for others with his rage. Which blinds him from realizing that he just shit on the thread and ruined it for everyone, just trying to "get me".

What a pathetic loser.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:57 PM

There's always the honorable way out, Slag. Ritual suicide. ;-)

I too have been deeply troubled by the lack of indentations on paragraphs, and that sort of thing. I feel your pain, brother! And I'm sure we both feel the pain of Guest, who had to wade through that whole lengthy post you made at 3:50 pm, without the relief of even ONE paragraph break. Dear me! S/he must be a very courageous soul to have done it and still had enough strength left to type a useful (?) comment about it afterward.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:52 PM

Great post! Well done, Slag.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:50 PM

I do make exceptions for others who post but do not observe proper grammar, spelling and form.*   I was under the impression that this was an informal forum where the participants thought on the fly and more or less followed a stream of consciousness and implyed humor here and there to keep the friendly nature of the thing alive.

    I see now that I was wrong. I must thank GUEST for pointing out to me the error of my ways. I shall henceforth endeavor to be as presise and correct in all aspects of the English language. I will also expect the same from every other person alike, both members and non-members. GUEST has demonstrated to me that form easily trumps factual statement, analysis and logic. I stand corrected.**


* The reader may have note the lack of the comma before the word "and" in this list and again in the penultimate sentence in the last paragraph. Grammarians differ of this usage. Some hold that each item in a list should be separated by a comma and others ( to which I subscribe) feel that the "and" takes the place of the comma. Perhaps this may be fodder for another thread but I sincerely hope that my usage here does not negate your thoughtful consideration of the foregoing. Copyrighted 2006

** I have just detected a problem with the website which now I feel may compromise all previous postings! The program will not let me indent for the initial paragraph! Oh! What will we do? What will we do?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 04:28 PM

Yes, well, some of us have a lower attention span than others, right?

But it's true, Slag, you might better have put in a couple of paragraph breaks. It would help.

Why watch soap operas when we've got Mudcat Cafe? ;-) Nasty, nasty, nasty! Tune in shortly for the next riveting episode.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 04:08 PM

Lousy post, slag!

I don't read posts where the writer can't be arsed to put in paragraph breaks!

so HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA back at ya!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

GREAT post, Slag! You are right on every point.

"The hallmark of an addiction is the person's inability to alter or stop the behavior."

Like in my case: Posting on Mudcat many times a day...specially on the political threads. Teribus has got it bad, too, maybe worse than me. Poor guy.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

I'll probably draw a lot of fire for this but...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA and HA!!! LOL and etc. What a great debate for this thread. No personal attacks here. And Q.E.D. Addiction is a compulsion, a compulsory, often ritualistic behavior. There are physical addictions as with nicotine or narcotics and there are psychological addictions of which anger may be one. There are also psychoneural conditions such as OCD that resemble addiction but are treatable with certain drugs and psychotherapy. The hallmark of an addiction is the person's inability to alter or stop the behavior. Denial is often central to the continuation of the addiction. The sufferer sees himself and his behavior as "normal" and will marshall rationalizations and argument to support his view. This also often incorporates a social support system that aids and abets the denial and smooths over any of the destructiveness the behavior may cause. It is the basis for the concept of dysfunction. Those who do not share in the dysfunction will instinctively or knowingly avoid the addict and his enablers which tends to isolate and intensifiy the problem. In sever cases the addicted person drives off his support resources and "hits bottom". This is usually the make or break moment where the person must either confront the addictive behavior or be lost forever to it. If it is chemical dependence, said chemistries will destroy their physical life. If it is "rage," assualt and battery charges may be in the offing and the criminal justice system becomes the confronting "bottom' and if realization does not take place there are prisons for warehousing angry young (and old) men. That is , if someone doesn't shoot them in self defense first. There are a lot of worthy tomes out there on this subject and its NOT pop-psychology. There is a lot of common sense and logic at work here and if YOU rale against the notion, you might ask yourself, what it is that you are trying to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:37 PM

No doubt the pleasure of your company is worth $30 a ticket to someone.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM

What makes you think I'm not enjoying myself brucie? Last night I went out for a lovely dinner and fabulous night at the theatre seeing "The Miser" with one of my oldest and dearest friends.

Some of us actually have a life, friends, great family and better things to spend it all here at Mudcat.

Believe me, this place doesn't rank THAT highly in my life. Mudcat is a time waster for me, while I'm doing laundry and reading the online newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,meself (formerly known as memyself)
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:11 PM

I like "meself" - it's folksier and friendlier than "memyself", which sounds a little cold, and maybe even pompous. Think I'll start using it. Thanks, GUEST!

Just want to make that public so I don't get accused of creating (yet another!) identity. By the way, I'm a little miffed that my prose style is not so unique that it could be suggested that more than one person has composed my posts. Harumph!

Okay, now that I've seen what's actually going on, I'm going to be off on my way. Good luck, GUEST - why not take a walk, do some cooking, play some music, something to get your mind off all this?

Last one out, turn off the lights!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:08 PM

The thread was already wrecked.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 02:54 PM

Too late Mick, you already wrecked the thread. Just like you always do when you come rushing in to piss on my shoes.

That's what happens when your ego is much bigger than your heart.