Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:57 AM

Who's gonna bring the ice & the fan. Whew

Barry

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: eddie1
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:22 AM

Bernard
What a brilliant idea!
They could be locked inside at the end of the festival which would save them the cost and effort of travel the following year. Heck, next time round they wouldn't even need to buy a ticket!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:01 AM

Great idea - provides secure storage for the beer, sound equipment and other stuff! Tarpaulins could be stretched across when it rains.

Bodhran players would, of course, play inside one of the containers... ;o>

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Keef
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 01:08 AM

I got an idea!!
Just been doing an bit of work that involved an old 20 foot shipping container.
Noise reduction even with just one empty container is very good.
No...we don't go inside and close the doors!
We arrange 4 (or more) of them in a rectangle with suitable gap for a doorway.
Festival organisers could very cheaply rent the containers for the event, the containers could at the same time be used for secure lock up.
This would create the bunker effect and the hard walls provide a nice resonance as an added bonus.
Wocha reckon?
Keef

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

Guest ace -
Sound cancellation technology is cool, but I don't imagine it would work in a festival venue. The headphones produce a cancelling sound wave that is equal in volume to the offending noise, but 180 degrees out of phase. The trick is the offending noise is canceled at a known point -- right as it enters the ear.

Out in the 3D world you would still need a cancelling sound wave as loud as the offending noise and exactly 180 degrees out of phase. The problem is that the cancelling souud can't be "as loud" and "out of phase" in all parts of a large 3D space at same time.

The device that that stops bass from coming through the wall seems plausible. With a little tweaking and tuning you should be able to push back on a 2D wall with an equal but opposite force to the offending, incoming sound and stop the wall from vibrating. It seems like it would work best attached directly to the wall, but I'm just speculating. This sort of device might be useful for building your bunker out of cheap, portable materials.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 04:15 AM

That suggestion is sure to give a lot of people the hump.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Keef
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:55 AM

Been away for a couple of day's cos an humungous electrical storm fried my phone and power.
I think the technical side of things is easily possible, that could be by alternative configurations of stages and maybe some sound reduction measures.
Many other considerations have to be considered with the layout.
What I am trying to stir up is the idea that quite a lot of people would like a quiet zone to be available, let's call it "The Oasis" (no camel jokes just yet thanks).
I think that would make things nicer at the big festivals.

I might be an old phart but I enjoy nice quiet music as well as a bit of
Wock n Woll.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST,Robin Nahum in Sydney
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 10:04 PM

Hi all,

My wife, son and I are regular Woodford (and other roots music) festival attendees. I gotta say that that there are better ways to approach the sound spill problem than building stuff.

In the case of Woodford, the site is huge. You come in through the camping area and then pass through an inner gate to enter a valley where all the stages (all temporary) are located. Well up the valley is a natural amphitheatre where the fire event and other big things take place. Up till a few years ago, it was also used for nightime rock concerts.

The lay of the land keeps the sound away from the rest of the entertainment area - although it does reach the performers camping area (but they're up all night jamming anyway so it doesn't matter).

Conversely, during the day, the amphithetre is mostly unused and isolated from the sound of the rest of the festival. It's a bit of a walk but maybe a good place to do a bit of a capella singing.

Two years ago, rock started to feature significantly in the daytime program at Woodford and events were sited in the centre part of the entertainment area. That year, there was also an unexpected increase in numbers and the organisers chose to enlarge the venues and PAs. As a result, we had to listen to some our favourite sacred music with a doof-doof backing - which really sucked. Consequently, we didn't go last year and, I understand, were not alone. We understand that the message got through and we're going this year.

For those festivals which take place on univerity, college or school grounds, it's usually pretty easy to find a quiet room.

RN

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:04 PM

Such is the nature of a litigation led society...!

At one time people were expected to exercise common sense. Nowadays, they don't have to, because they can blame it on someone else!!

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:51 PM

Same as for any temporary building I would guess.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST,ace UK
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:34 PM

a full risk assessment.

this assessment would also take in to consideration the use of the structure and any services available in the structure (such as water, electricity or heating). this would be included as an entry in the risk assessment document for the whole event and will also ensure the public liability insurance for the event would cover any serious problems that may occur with the structure (if any would).

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:37 PM

What would be the requirements of "officialdom" for such an erection?

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:36 PM

If you're wanting soundproofing at home - for a studio or practice room - I've found these people pretty good. And it will cost a lot less than £100K.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:25 PM

Urethane foam is used for thermal insulation and should make fairly reasonable sound insulation. It's cheap enough to buy a few sheets and give it a try - 2 inches thick is readily available and you might even be able to get some that's thicker.

It is very light so that a portable modular building would be quite feasable, even if you had to sandwich it between thin plywood for durability.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST,ace UK
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:43 AM

just had another thought.

you can now get technology that uses phase as a means of sound cancellation, this is demonstrated by the noise cancellation headphones that are becoming available (bose being the leaders in the market at present).

there is also a device that can stop the annoying bass coming through your wall from your nieghbours house. this is a speaker (plus some other electronics) that faces the offending wall. it records the bass coming through the the wall and plays this back in the direction of the offending bass, but out of phase with the original signal. this creates cancellation which stops the offending bass being heard.

i am not sure of the manufacuter of the speaker but this another possibility.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST,ace UK
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:31 AM

i agree that most of this problem is created by inexperienced sound engineering and PA's being turned up to loud for audience enjoyment.

a standard PA company will turn up for event with what they believe to be the correct spec and this inevitably includes massive bass bins, something not always needed for acoustic or folk music.

so another way to address this issue would be to spec the PA requirements in a more accurate way, ensuring that huge bass bins (as bass is the bane of sound proofing due its long wave length) are kept to an exeptable level.

the stages on the perimeter is also a good sugestion for reducing overall site noise.

it is also worth mentioning that sound gradually curves upwards as it travels, so any bunker would benifit from being in the lowest part of the site, also if the site is not a flat expanse it would be good to use the natural lie of the land to decide where to put your bunker (such as behind a small incline which may offer some natural protection)

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:08 AM

At the Austin city limits festival a couple of years ago they staggered maybe a dozen stages around the perimeter of a park and played shows at the same time only on stages that were across the park from one another and not directly facing each other. Some were big stages and some were very small (the acts were everything from Wilco and Robert Earl Keen down to local talent). They also, as I said, didn't seem to be turning up the volume to brain-melting levels. Facing the stages outward (which sounds like a good idea) wasn't really an option because of the location/shape of the park (amoeba-shaped and surrounded by busy streets) but this seemed to be a reasonable second solution.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST,ace
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:44 AM

sound is absorbed well through mass and multiple layers (sound absorbtion through layering). in fact an air cavity can also help in the absortion of sound. also if you have 2 parallel walls with an air cavity it is best if they are not quite perfectly parallel, this alows the sound to be better disapated as differnt wavelengths can 'bounce' around inside the cavity allowing the absorbtion co-effeciancy of the walls to better absorb a wider frequency bandwidth.

you can even purchase a ready sealed room designed for drum kits to be recorded in small project studios, however this is a small structure but is very portable unlike a breeze block and sand strucutre as mentioned earlier.

it would almost be better for large events to build their own bespoke 'bunker' for each event (especially if they have budjets of up to 100000)

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:30 AM

Eh, What?

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:10 AM

sound spill was a real pain in the bum at a recent festival. Venues were too close & sound was too loud.

In the words of an old folkie, the cause was that the sound was done by young folks who normally do sound for rock'n'roll, & they did not know how to mix for folk. He had asked several of them to adjust the sound, but they had no idea what he was saying. Loud was all they understood.

sandra

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:23 AM

'Mass' absorbs sound.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST,ace
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 06:05 AM

being a stage manager for festivals the circular stage idea would be a nightmare for getting artists and kit to the relevant stage as access is normally through the back stage area for vehicles etc... using closed marquees can greatly reduce sound spill as well using a short throw PA rather than long throw. also making sure that the PA's are over specked means that they can be run at low levels with good sound quality rather than being pushed at their max, something that can give a overdriven feel to the music.

a double skin of breeze blocks with sand filling the cavity and a natural grass roof can give good sound proofing. one thing to remember with this technique is to reinforce the bottom few levels of block work to make sure the sand does not buckle the wall at the base (due to the sheer wieght). combine this with hard wearing carpet for the interior walls and a sound proof bunker you will have (with a marginal outlay of cash money)

sound proofing is inherantly expensive but sand and blocks are by far the cheepest option

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Keef
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:00 AM

Uncle Phil ...Pure Genius...Anybody been to any festivals where this circular set up is used?
Sounds like it would hugely improve the situation.
Good one!
Keef

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 11:07 PM

The placement of amplified stages matters. In Winnfield, for example, Stages 4, 3, and 2 are heavily amplified and pretty close together, but face north, west and south. They don't interfere with each other, at least until that mad Irishman starts setting off fireworks at Stage 2.

Stage 1, however, faces the smaller stages and sometimes floods them with sound.

Try circling the stages with all of them facing outward. The rest is, as friend John says, a matter of distance and clutter.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:36 PM

Stop amplifying the bagpipes! Thank God for dulcimer festivals--even an amplified dulcimer doesn't carry more than a few rows.

I haven't experienced that problem much here at festivals but it's sure an issue at clubs & bars. Heaven forbid some of might want to actually hear the music as music and not as a wall of noise.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: leeneia
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:30 PM

Getting together with other people and making music is one of life's great joys. Listening to others do it just doesn't compare. So it's definitely worth it to address the problem of overly-loud festivals.

Can you take some other approach to finding a quiet place for acoustic music? How about early in the day (but not too early) before the acts get started? Or how about a hike to a friendly location such as a church hall or a school?

Even renting a bus and spiriting the acousticians away would be cheaper and simpler than building and hauling a shelter.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:46 AM

Nippers

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:40 AM

Foolestroupe

If "Wire Cutters Mate"

What do you call their offspring?

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Keef
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:56 AM

Thanks Guest
I'll answer that one!
I go to festivals because I do enjoy some of the acts.
I also believe that one of the definitions of folk music is that it includes participation, something hard to achieve with the sound levels that prevail at festivals nowadays.
The loud stuff goes on till way past midnight meaning that the pickers and singers must wait till sparrows fart before they get a go. The campsites are also used by people who would like to catch up on a bit of sleep at some stage.
Keef

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:32 AM

"go to such extreme lengths to isolate themselves from the rest of the community. Seems to defeat the whole experience. If extraneous noise upsets the "bunker" people so much, why do they go to festivals? "

I don't go there to be deafened non-stop - but I don't mind an OCCASIONAL burst of amplified bagpipes - when I'm IN the Battlefield Band Concert!

I still say "Wire Cutters Mate!"

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:23 AM

I can't understand why anyone would want to go to a festival, which is a community event, and go to such extreme lengths to isolate themselves from the rest of the community. Seems to defeat the whole experience. If extraneous noise upsets the "bunker" people so much, why do they go to festivals? Wouldn't it make more sense to club together, buy a field in the middle of nowhere and sing or play to their hearts' content. David Attenbrough might be interested in this strange behaviour and film it for the entertainment of those studying the more wierd practises of the evolutionary development of the folkie.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:44 AM

"Both inner and outer walls would have to be quite thick."

Oh, that's easy then - just use recycled folkies...

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:40 AM

so the hay could serve a double purpose..to feed the horses.

The "hay bales" most commonly used for sitting are really "straw bales" and the horses likely won't be too interested in them, unless they're really starving.

An expedient used in some of the places where I've camped is just to park the 60-foot motor home (or a couple of them) between the players and the offenders. It does have an effect, if the pickers stay "close to the wall."

Some camps "circle the wagons" so that the pickin' parlor is "walled off" from adjacents, and if they're closely spaced several smaller units can be somewhat effective. A "circle of tents" might help, if it can be arranged.

Lots of "clutter" in the intervening space can help quite a bit in breaking up the sound that carries from one site to the next, but distance is the most effective thing you can add, especially for interference from "ground level" sources.

With high-powered amps in the hands of amateurs it's really difficult to do much though, especially for "voice frequencies" and lower. If the interference is from an "amphitheater" and you're getting what comes down after they've blasted the clouds, a lot of distance may be needed.

John

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:24 AM

Talk about wierd....I'm still trying to understand why one of our Guests sees any purpose in a soundproof coffin!

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Keef
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 03:50 AM

Thanks for the idea Bert, do you have any evidence that urethane foam would do the job? The site I linked to "sounproofing info" is pretty clear that only a high mass barrier like lead or Mass loaded vinyl will reduce noise transmission. I found that site to have a lot of good info, FAQs, and popular myths busted.
I wonder how well it would work if you took one of the standard "Hoekers" that are used for the pavillions in most festivals, and lined it with either the lead stuff( very expensive) or the high mass vinyl. Entrances would need to be baffled e.g a zig zag path lined with sound absorbent material.
I am inclined to think that sound transmitted through the ground would not be very significant. In theory a high enough wall (eg motorway sound barriers) will not allow much sound to be bounced over the top. From my own experience I think a sound proof roof would also be required...amd that is a bit of an engineering challenge.
By the way, the Singing Shed at the Woodford festival, although not as sound proof as it could have been due to no doors and not very high walls, did prove to be a very popular venue. That's why I think the idea is worth investigating.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Bert
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:48 AM

Problem with lead is that it is heavy. Urethane foam however is very light and rigid. It comes in large sheets of varying thicknesses. If you are serious about this send me a PM and I'll design a building for you.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: open mike
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:43 AM

we have joked about each festival attendee bringing a bale of hay
and making a space for the drummers to be in...

this would be an a festival where there are horse back security
crews, so the hay could serve a double purpose..to feed the horses.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Keef
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 09:20 PM

Haven't been able to get on for a few days but have done a bit of research in the meantime.
Thanks Guest Jim......that would be lovely but perhaps a bit small (4x2.85x2.2H) I notice that they do bigger ones though.
This site
sound proofing info
has lots of good stuff including
AT LAST! REAL LEAD! THE BEST! ACOUSTICAL DAMPING LEAD METAL SHEETING & Radiation BARRIER! An economical, extremely effective barrier to sound. It's the thinnest and most effective acoustical material known, so is good for installation in/on floors, walls and ceilings for maximum effect. They give this 1/64" foil material a rating of STC 21. It weighs 1 pound per square foot! Professionals apply it to walls, sheetrock/drywall panels with our heavy-duty adhesive. Also blocks radiation from nuclear attack!   

That oughta do it!

Any ways..the point is (in my humble opinion) that technically this could be done.
Questions are... how great a need exists?
How much would it cost?
Would festival organisers be willing to pay for the cost of hire for an event?
Considering the large amounts spent for sound reinforcement at festivals, would the cost of providing a sound reduced venue be acceptable?
For events held within walking distance of a pub or similar building there is obviously no need.
What I am thinking of is the great many festivals that have perhaps 6 marquees spaced closely together and the sound levels are very high throughout the grounds.
Even the Guiness tents which used to have sessions during the festivals have now gone over to an amplified stage setup which mostly features the same performers that are on the main program.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: eddie1
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:23 AM

Re Guest 25 Nov 06 - 10:58 AM

This happens sadly too often in Mudcat. Someone without the courage to give themself a name, jumps in to make inane remarks about a pretty sensible idea. Obviously without giving the idea any thought whatsoever or maybe they're missing the point!
I like electric folk, acoustic music, unaccompanied singing and am (whisper it please) quite happy to listen and watch while Morris Men/Women are dancing but I don't want everything at the same time. Many festivals taking place indoors have rooms set aside for acoustic/unaccompanied material but obviously outdoor festivals don't have that luxury. Sometimes a bit of thought by organisers as to layout is the simplest answer but sometimes available space doesn't allow for much adjustment.
Some kind of moveable acoustic barrier is an excellent idea.
Hope someone comes up with a solution.

eddie

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:19 AM

anahata is correct, the only solution to reducing noise is through lots of mass between them and you. There is an existing product here - http://www.studiospares.com/pd_411580_ESMONO%204x285x22H%20ROOM.htm.

The obvious solution taken from permanant soundproofing would be to have a floating room inside an outer shell. The floor is raised on rubber pads to stop ground transmitted noise, and the inner walls and ceiling are mechanically isolated from the outer walls and ceiling. Both inner and outer walls would have to be quite thick. You'd need inner and outer doors to stop transmitted vibration.

Oh yes, and all this has to be airtight as well... Health and Safety are going to love it.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:11 AM

Lessons should be learned from what happened in the bunker to that German bloke with the funny moustache. He thought that he was superior to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:42 AM

Sneak round at 3-4 am with wire cutters - that'll fix those damn amps!

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:49 AM

It's defintely a problem.
At Bromyard we sat in a little tent which they call "the shed" to listen to some really talented youngsters perform acoustically.
The big marquee across the site was not so much of a problem as the childrens area (with big percussion) next to it, and the Morris display that started up outside.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 04:57 AM

From the above description it looks to me that you guys are preparing for your own funeral. A coffin is it?

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Keef
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 02:16 AM

By the way, I don't have the 100 Geez in my pocket just now. BUT....
If we could come up with a realistic design (not egg cartons thank you)
that would have actual values for sound attenuation over the full acoustic spectrum) and would meet safety requirements and provide ventilation, then I do believe it would be a viable proposition.
If the "bunker" could be broken down into a flat pack that would fit into a shipping container then it could easily be shared between festivals.
Thanks Sorcha, I am thinking along the lines of 8 x 4 Ply sheets also but I think that we need something really good in the sandwich, possibly a thin sheet of lead (do not eat!) with foam either side.
Air locks or sound baffles on the entrances would be essential due to the "weakest link" principle.
It would of course be easier if the venue was further away from the noisy stuff but that is often hard to achieve.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Keef
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 01:38 AM

I think we should debunk the egg cartons myth. This is probably based on the fact that the lining used in anechoic chambers is shaped similar to egg cartons. It is however made from a dense sound absorbent foam. Egg cartons may possibly provide acoustic dampening but have zero effect on noise transmission.
The main reason I enjoy festivals is that they bring together heaps of great people, many of them talented musicians, and I enjoy having a jam with loads of em. I am not so much fussed about sitting on a plastic chair facing a bank of speakers. Frankly I'd rather stay home and listen to the radio for free!
Is that weird or wot?
Keef

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:47 PM

...and I'll help!

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:28 PM

Urethane foam insulation comes in large sheets and several thicknesses and it's light and easy to carry. Don't use the styrofoam stuff 'cos it's inflammable.

You should be able to build a modular room easily enough by sticking the stuff together with duct tape.

If your budget is $100,000, I'll come and build it for you.

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:01 PM

Maybe that's why 'The Jam' were 'Going Underground'...

Egg boxes do work, though. I've carried eggs home in them quite successfully on many occasions!!

Subject: RE: Sound proof 'bunker' for festivals?
From: GUEST,leprechaun
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:49 AM

That's very noble of you Charley. I agree with what you say about wierd people being capable of producing the best of music but the burrowing instincts of the "bunker" people is undeniably strange - even for the English.
In an earlier post you quite rightly pointed out that Cork was reasonably safe from this practice. Dublin, Galway, Sligo and Donegal town are also reported to be bunker free.

Regards from the little people.