fiddle /violin can one learn both?

Subject: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: mickburke
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:26 PM

My niece ,aged eight, is learning the violin from a classically trained and ,I am told very good , musician. The trouble is she's not getting a lot of fun out of it . I'd like her to learn Irish fiddle . Is it possible to learn both or would the techniques involved in playing the fiddle inhibit her progress at the violin?

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:34 PM

In my experience of listening, I have never heard a violinist-turned- fiddler get over 'having gone to college' but some of them are exceptional listening. I know one woman who tried very hard to get over her training and 'do' bluegrass. In practice, it came out as muscular but not as fiddling.

Another woman, who, like the other woman, also started at an early age in classical training but she fiddles the heck out of a tune. The tunes may sound a little 'sweeter' than most fiddlers would create but she is wonderful to hear.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:36 PM

Maybe,

see
Donna Hébert's "The Reel Deal: Twelve Questions Violinists Ask about Fiddling"

http://www.dhebert.com/12questions.html

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:38 PM

Ebbie, not sure if you heard me or not. Don't think so. I had 8 years of classical training...took me at least 10, maybe more, to sound like a fiddler. If she starts out doing both it will be better, but the Teacher might not approve.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:42 PM

Yes, but get her going on improvisation and learning by ear early so she doesn't become sheet-music dependent. I appreciate sheet music for many things--I could stand to be a much better music reader myself--but a fast way to kill the fiddling instinct is to let somebody get too worried about the particulars. Got into a bit of an argument with a classical cellist last Christmas; I kept telling her that the tune was played one way and she kept asking me how it was written. I don't know how it was written. I'd never seen it written. I only knew how it was played and I'd taught it to other people just fine without so much as tab. This woman was technically a much better musician than I've ever been; I couldn't believe she didn't have the gumption to TRY it without written music.

Incidentally, although many primitive recordings don't do them justice, a lot of fiddlers were/are very fine musicians. We're not all chicken-scratchers.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:46 PM

There's many better fiddlers than me out there, but for what it's worth as a poor multi-instrumentalist, I can vouch for the fact that a good sound technique is the greatest acquisition for any playing. The rest is in the interpretation of the music you're playing at the time - and in those few words is a lifetime of study for most people.
So stick with the classical training for a bit, and get her some dots for traditional tunes and try to give her a good "listening repertoire" - let her find what she enjoys - you can only provide the resources...
Good luck to you both.
B

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:21 PM

Clock a listen te Gary Blakely (Band Of Two, The Tabs, 'an'some Cabin Boys)

Gary is classically trained but aalwez loved folk music and he can torn his hand te just aboot anything - The liner notes for his 1st solo album were by Barry Dransfield and he also plays with Peter Knight (Steeleye Span & The Gemini Cadenza) who is another violinist/fiddler. Have a liten to "Bach goes to Limerick" on Steeleye's "Commoners Crown"

It's aall in what ye want te dee with your music and not in which direction yez are pointed.

Aah grew up wi' The Beatles & The Stones burrit dizzent mean that aah cannit pick a bit of Debussy or a bit Flamenco on the guitar if the mood teks uz!

Tell the lass (if she's bored) te drop the classical bit for noo (forbye she's aalready got a bit of grounding in the instrument anyway) and go whichever way her heart wants - She can aalwez come back te the classical style at a later date

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:35 PM

For the first couple of years it does not matter whether they learn Violin or Fiddle. Then its all about learning to use the bow in different but good sounding ways.

After 25 years playing, most Fiddler or Violinists agree about bowing in lots of similar ways.

Singing ( singy stuff in slow movements Classical, songs in folk music ) 'fiddling' ( some in pop Classical such as Bach and Mozart ), tripling ...what ever. Jazz etc.

Timing if badly learned in either will always sound like a hurdy-gurdy.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:43 PM

There are a good few people on the scene who are good in both disciplines - Gary Blakely , Dave Oakley from Cara , and a lad I gig with , James Shenton . ALL classical trained and all bloody good fiddlers !
The suggestion about NOT being dots dependant is a very good one too !
Louis Armtrong once said he COULD read music , but not enough to hurt his playing !!

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 11:40 PM

The short answer is yes. The long answer is not very complicated, it just involves time dedicated to both disciplines. Why should the violin/fiddle be any different than any other instrument on which disparate styles are played?

I regularly play guitars with a violinist, classically trained, stellar sight reader, who had the advantage of an upbringing influenced by old-time, bluegrass, and other traditional styles. The net result is versatility. Classical, swing, celtoid, old-time, bluegrass...It's really a lot of fun.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: leeneia
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 11:56 AM

The child is little. Her connective tissue is soft, she is not very co-ordinated, and she has many other life tasks to master. Leave her music training to a trained teacher and don't make more demands on her for a long time.

For the record, I know a tenured professor of violin/viola who can fiddle with the best of them. I believe that the main thing that makes a fiddler is having the interest and hearing lots of examples. One listen is worth 100 discussions.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: open mike
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:43 PM

i played violin for years
and put it down because I
could not reltae to the
music i played...and playing
in groups always involved
focussing on a leader/conductor
who told me (us) what to do.

When i discovered fiddle tunes
and old timey music , that type
of music brouught me so much more
joy and the un-learning of the
written music dependancy was a
difficult task.

with fiddle music...bluegrass
old timey, etc. the learning of
tunes is usually by ear (although
there are some books, tapes, video)
and when playing it is often in a circle
of your peers . It would be good to train
your "ear" from the beginning. the suzuki
school of music learning often does employ
listen first--play later style of learning
at first, any way. what type of music does
she like to listen to?

the techniques of holding the instrument
and bowing techniques are good to learns..
the scales and classical skills can be
used for fiddling, but whether you learn
one of the other style of music should depend
on which type of music turns you on!!

I sort of consider my time in the orchestra
as time that i lost out on being able to
have fun with music! but i am glad that i
gained an appreciation of music and experienced
the team work and harmony oppportunities of it.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 01:55 PM

And I second the Boatman's/leeneia's/etc's suggestion about a listening repertoire. Very, very, important (for classical as well as fiddle, for that matter), both in terms of hearing the music itself and in terms of learning the style and history.

And I wasn't disparaging classical training. Seriously. In spite of all the jokes about "yes I was trained but not enough to do any permanent damage", I really do appreciate the discipline and technique that comes with that. I look formal piano lessons when I was little and, even though I don't play that sort of stuff any more, I'm very glad that I learned to read the little music I did and learned proper hand position. Left to my own devices, I would certainly have learned it all wrong--I'm notorious for my messy fingering, on all instruments--and slowed myself up.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Greg B
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:32 PM

Regarding fiddlers gone to college, I have two words for you,
'Simon Spalding.'

And a BUNCH of the current breed of kick-ass fiddlers were
trained in the classical style. Nice thing is they don't hurt
themselves like traditional players do.

Dave Brubeck was a classical pianist. He plays jazz that some
say is decent.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: GUEST,mick burke
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 11:51 PM

Thanks everybody for the advice . It's my brother who's paying for the lessons ;he tells me that his main concern is to not put his daughter off .Neither he nor his wife play the fiddle/violin and I think that's an important factor. It seems to me that a young learner needs a network of musicians to play with ,be friends with , pick up tips from and to some extent compete with . Otherwise they can end up learning just to keep their parents happy . Ceoltas (the Irish cultural group) does provide a learning milieu and I think Rosa would be more likely to pick up the enjoyment neccesary to develop and sustain a long -term commitment to her instrument in that sort of atmosphere.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 11:54 PM

Yes, but it helps, as others have said, to train her ear without the dots, too. I grew up with both and started playing voilin at age eight. When I finally started to play fiddle a bit, I could NOT follow the dots as they did not agree with what my ear had heard my dad playing all of those years, so I ignored them.

I don't agree that an eight year old is automatically not very well co-ordinated, though. I believe it depends on the child.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:54 AM

Is there a Suzuki teacher near you? I believe they teach classical techniques but using aural methods too. The ones I've seen have a large group learning together so there is moral support for the kids and it's a bit more fun than just one kid and the teacher.
Robyn

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:07 AM

A violin is a fiddle is a violin. Shouldn't the question be related to the type of music played on this instrument?

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: GLoux
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:21 AM

I suggest that you take your niece to an Irish fiddle session to see if it is of interest to her.

-Greg

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: JennyO
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:24 AM

I know a 10 year old who has been learning the violin using the Suzuki method. I must admit I'm impressed with the variety of music that they are given to play. This child has a very good ear, and once she has committed the tune to memory, she can play it without looking at the music. I gather they are encouraged to try playing without the music once they know the piece.

Amongst her repertoire, as well as some of the better known classical pieces, are more popular ones, such as the Beatles, some lively sea shanties and a couple of fast Irish reels. She's up to speed enough with "Drowsy Maggie" that she could hold her own playing it in a good Irish session. She seems to have a fair amount of confidence, so all she needs now is a few more tunes like that, and I might take her to one, if her mother will let me. That should increase her confidence even further.

The best part is that she enjoys playing, and will often keep on going long after she has done the required practice. I wish it had been like this when I was learning the violin. I gave it up eventually because I found the music boring. I had not been exposed to other ways to play, and I thought that classical violin was all there was to it. I'm starting to look at it again now - there's a trip to the repairer to get my old fiddle back to playing condition in the very near future.

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: clueless don
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:20 AM

I believe that I once heard that Kevin Burke had classical training as a child (apologies if I am remembering wrongly, or if I was given faulty information, but I think I actually heard Kevin himself say this during a concert.) If someone wants to argue that Mr. Burke is not "traditional", everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. But in my opinion, early classical training apparently did Mr. Burke no harm!

Don

Subject: RE: fiddle /violin can one learn both?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:22 AM

Sorry, mick burke, I wasn't being rude; I didn't see your posting before I posted mine.