my letter to the editor

Subject: my letter to the editor
From: leeneia
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:15 PM

Just thought I'd share another "voice of one that crieth in the wilderness." I sent the following letter to our newspaper. I wonder if they'll print it.
-------
Recently I went to a classical music concert here in Kansas City. Hurry through dinner, don the nice duds, drive, find a place to park (!), find a seat - and then it's time to sit quietly for a few moments to calm the mind in preparation for the most intense concentrating most of us ever do.

Unfortunately, something all too common is going on up front. The musicians have come on stage. Unembarrassed to admit that they don't have their music mastered yet, they are running through various licks, riffs and tricky bits. Such cacophony; different keys, different timings, and each one oblivious to anyone else.

Here's what I would like to say to these players. "Imagine that I invited you to a wonderful meal, a feast in fact. After paying quite a bit, you come to my home, where I explain that I haven't got my act together yet. Then I offer you some appetizers: spumoni with clam sauce, barbecued brie; strawberry-green olive dip. And to your dismay, you realize that through some Machievellian manouvreing on my part, you can't get out of eating this insane stuff. If you want to enjoy the feast, you have to endure my appetizers. How would you feel about that?"

Well, that's how I feel when musicians slip on stage and drill their tricky bits right before the concert.
--------------


Do musicians do this in YOUR town?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Peace
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:32 PM

Not twice.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:34 PM

Your complaint is well placed. If you are going to get on stage and perform something, you'd better have your act together. I'd like to hear if your nespaper prints it, and also any follow up letters that might happen. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:40 PM

Maybe they're all frustrated drummers!
Giok

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:41 PM

Well, I like my musicians to be tuned up and warmed up and ready to play, not walking on cold and spending the first 15 minutes getting the hang of things.

Is it possible the cretins in your town which are tormenting you might have no decent rehearsal hall or green rooms in which to prepare?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:42 PM

Were they tuning? Warming up?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:42 PM

classical music.....don't mess with the mafia

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:43 PM

actually they sound like my kinda musician.....

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:51 PM

Kinda' common with a lot of symphonic orchestras.   I can't speak for Boston or NY but here in the great unwashed midwest at Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincy.....at least the last time I was at any of thses, they all did it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:51 PM

Oh please. Give them a break. There is nothing wrong with making sure you are in tune and warmed up sufficiently. It has nothing to do with "mastering" but everything to do with being ready.

When you are in the kitchen, I would hope that you have taken the time to check to make sure your ingredients are fresh, your utensils are clean, and your oven was heated to the proper temperature. I am also sure you will check your recipe once or twice. There are steps that you take to insure your meal is made to spec.

As long as you deliver the meal and I'm able to digest it without throwing up, there is no need for me to comment on your preparations. Give a musician a break and don't be so damn demanding! You are lucky to have a concert to attend and musicians that care about their art.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:52 PM

I saw the fabled Martin Carthy (nice chap, BTW) for the first time recently, and he repeats the warm-up between every song/tune. Well known for it, apparently. Two guitars and a monkey to retune the 'down' one might help.......

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 02:55 PM

I have no idea what the concert hall looked like, but might it be necessary to tune up in the space in which you were actually going to play? I would think the acoustics would be different than they would be backstage. I'd rather they tune up onstage than that they either tune up somewhere else, or tune up an hour earlier without re-checking at the last minute, and then be out of tune for the concert.

But then the rule in our house is that if you can't help get dinner on the table, you're not invited. We're not formal entertainers.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:00 PM

I'm always irritated by anyone who walks on stage and tunes. Very amateurish.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: jeffp
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:03 PM

More amateurish than playing out of tune?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:09 PM

Backstage and onstage can have very different temps and humidity to contend with.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Peace
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:13 PM

In the vernacular, shit happens.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:19 PM

I've never been to any classical concert that was different from the one you describe. I love those moments.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: GUEST,dRwORD
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:40 PM

right on wolfgang!!!

dennis

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: jeffp
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:50 PM

It is a last-minute chance to make sure the instruments are properly warmed up (wind instruments especially will change tuning when cold) before the final tuning. That starts with the principal oboist giving an A to the concertmaster (mistress) who then relays it to the orchestra. An ancient and mystical ritual. Mess with it at your own peril!

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Peace
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:52 PM

Indeed. Y'all know about Opperknockity.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:56 PM

It also gives musicians a chance to prepare their environment a bit. As a bassoonist in several youth smphonies and wind ensembles I just did it because I thought they did it everywhere like I stated above. I would use the time before to warm up a bit, be sure the seat strap would lay properly, put a spare softened reed and bocal on the stand, be sure my manuscript was all there and in reasonable order, etc.

I can understand how this kind of thing might seem odd but I had never thought of it being so before now. Like Wolfie, I enjoy getting to watch and listen beforehand.

Spaw

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:02 PM

I didn' Peace so I looked it up and thought I'd post it for the benefit of other depraved deprived Mudcatters.

Mr Opperknockity was the best piano tuner on earth, often he was booked months in advance. One customer, who had waited half a year for Opperknockity to tune his 9' Steinway, called him a few days after the tuning; "Really, everything sounds wonderful...except that middle C has slipped a little. Can you come and touch it up?" "No, I can't do that" replied Opperknockity. "But why not?" said the indignant customer. "Because, everyone knows Opperknockity only tunes once"

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:14 PM

interesting.
    I got the impression from certain contributors to WHY WELL RUN FOLKCLUBS ARE IMPORTANT,notably countess richard and gervase, that this sort of thing only happens in folk clubs, clearly not

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: jeffp
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:25 PM

The noodling halts when the concertmaster stands to receive the A. This gives the audience a chance to get in the proper frame of mind for the triumphal entry of the conductor.

BTW, what is the difference between an orchestra and a bull?

The bull has the horns in front and the asshole in back.

Jeff (former trombonist)

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:28 PM

Well, you know the one about old-time musicians tuning up, right?

Why bother--aren't the songs in the same key they were in last year?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:34 PM

Trombone? So, like, you were lookin' for something that was actually long, hard, and slid well when lubricated? Yeah, slide envy.....common problem in trombone sections. Generally the worst lovers too 'cause they only know 7 positions and argue a lot about which one to be in.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: freightdawg
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:42 PM

I may have misunderstood Leeneia's original post, but I thought she was talking about actual rehearsing and practicing, not the usual noodling and tuning that one expects before a orchestral concert or musical play or some such.

I think we are all accustomed to the seating of the orchestra and the loosening up that is part and parcel of the experience. But what if they are, as she said, practicing all the tricky riffs and various parts of the musical score they are going to be presenting? Hearing a scale used to warm up doesn't bother me, but hearing the trumpet go through his/her fanfare would sort of bum me out. As with Leeneia's food analogy, I would expect the knives to be sharpened, the food to be prepared, etc. But when it came to the final presentation, I would not want the chef to sharpen his/her knife at the dinner table, nor should he/she disembowel the salmon over my plate, no matter how skilled the chef may be. Warming up is okay, but I think the final "nerve settling" should be done backstage, or at least before the audience starts to be seated.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 06:27 PM

Yes, called warming up. Just because you were in tune backstage doesn't mean you will be under the stage lights. It's partly to keep the hall from being dead quiet and making people uncomfortable, or feel that they must stay silent til the conductor comes on.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:15 PM

I wasn't talking about symphony orchestras, I was talking about guitarists and banjo players. You go to a folk club, each performer is given time for two or three songs, and some will use up at least one song tuning, and then do his three songs in addition. Hogging the stage is a sure sign of amateur.

Sandy Paton will remember the time at a certain folk festival when a certain act got an encore and bellowed away for another 10 minutes.Amateurs.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:43 PM

You are speaking of a classical concert. Even at Carnegie Hall the musicians come on stage and tune their instruments and then the conductor taps his baton and the program progresses. I assume you were speaking of their tuning---a normal thing.   

Did the orchestra you were listening to complete the concert as billed in a professional manner? In a professional interpratation is a better phrase.

Folk concerts (shows) are a bit different. More informal---and many artists (sometimes irritating) "tune" all the time between pieces. Though, I notice the real pros do not---the more amateurish ones do that and talk about it and expound on that, no less. That is, however, different than your comments re: a classical concert.   


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:16 PM

When I was little, and we listened to concerts on the radio, the tuning up of the orchestra was *always* in the background while the announcer made his introduction. It was part of the experience -- made you feel you were there.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:40 PM

If you bring binoculars to a symphony, you will see that the players, strings and reeds especially, fiddle around incessantly to stay in tune. The pre-game warm up also gives them a chance to see how to adjust their tone for the acoustic changes an audience creates. An empty practice room dounds different from an auditorium which sounds different from an auditorium with an audience.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:53 PM

I'd hate to go to a classical concert where they didn't have the bit where they warm up and tune up and get settled before they start playing. It's a major part of the drama of the event, it draws you in and builds the excitement. Sometimes it even sounds better than some of what follows...

If that letter gets printed, I bet there'll be other readers writing in to put that contrasting point of view. Which should mean it's more likely to get printed. I think there's an element of trolling involved here, leeneia.

As for Martin Carthy - I remember one time where he came on stage, ran his finger across the strings and looked alarmed. "Bugger me," he said "it doesn't need tuning. I don't know what to do now." Or words to that effect

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: leeneia
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 11:54 PM

I am not talking about tuning up. I know what tuning up is, and Ihave no problem with it. I am talking about assorted musicians coming up early and running through difficult parts of the pieces to come. The din is horrific, and I consider it amateur. (If that's how you spell "amateur."

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:17 AM

I love that early glimpse of the complicated bits that will be performed within the concert. That cacophony of practice ahead of the concert is what makes live music all the more exciting. It's like the Olympic ice skaters out on the ice all together before they compete individually. If you're so lucky as to be sitting in the audience before the performance, you'll see people practicing those hard jumps or spectacular spins.

If you don't like that noise, I suggest you spend more time munching on the fruit and cheese in the lobby. Or have an extra glass of wine--it has mellowing agents!

SRS

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Zhenya
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:16 AM

At many of the trad concerts I go to, the musicians play a bit beforehand to test out the sound system setup, as opposed to checking their actual playing. I'm not sure how this would translate with a classical concert. Also, sometimes they retune during the performance because the next piece will actually be in a different tuning from the last one they played. (Happens a lot at Old Time concerts, in particular.)

Personally, since I (try to) play myself, I would probably find it interesting to watch how the musicians warm up, since if they are playing professionally, they likely play much better than I do. I would probably be observing technical things they were doing to try and learn something. I don't think this kind of situation would bother me, but without actually witnessing myself what you experienced, it's hard to tell. If they really seemed to be cramming at the last minute to learn their parts, well, that doesn't seem very professional. However, there are times when I've been aware that a musician had to fill in as a substitute at almost the last minute, so there might be legitimate instances of this.

At any rate, I hope you have a better experience at the next concert you go to.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:36 AM

In fact, the noodling around before the concert is considered part of warming up by classical players. Sorcha may well be right when she says it's partly to put the audience at ease--too bad it doesn't seem to have that effect on some people.

I've also been in the orchestra when we've done that.

And I've been on stage in the chorus--many many times--when the orchestra has done it.

Both when I'm on stage in the chorus and on the infrequent occasions when I'm in the audience, I look forward to those moments of hearing snatches of music played before the concert. Particularly when I can guess when the one excerpt by one instrument what the piece is--hoping the trumpet player will play a bit from the famous trumpet solo in the Leonore Overture #3 or I'll hear a snatch of a Mozart horn concerto by a horn--or whatever they feel like warming up on. It's often--but not always--a bit from the upcoming concert.

I would bet this letter to the editor does get published--since it will stimulate further letters---and editors love that.

I've heard many folk performers also tune up both before the concert and between pieces. Instruments go out of tune--or the tuning of the next song may be different. Fine with me. I'm glad they care enough to tune.




Jan's (and my) letter to the editor would be on a totally different subject--and again, only in reference to classical concerts. The National Symphony (DC) is a good group. The concerts virtually always sound great to me when I am in the audience--pretty rare, actually.   But Jan is really annoyed at them when she goes to a concert--because at the end of a concert they just stand there and soberly stare at the audience. The concertmistress--who comes from Israel--is this germane?--beams at the audience.   And the conductor, of course also bows and smiles. But the rest of the group acts like they'd rather be anywhere else. We are clapping madly, on our feet--and their message is "You Philistines. Do you mean to tell us you actually like the Mahler First?"--(or the Beethoven Pastoral--or whatever).

Jan feels strongly (and I agree, actually)---that they have good jobs, good pay, and do good work. When an audience shows its strong approval, the least they could do is smile at us.

If they'd really rather be digging ditches, perhaps they should look into that line of work.

We in the chorus certainly--in our concerts--respond to a standing ovation by smiling broadly at the audience.

And when I was in the orchestra--admittedly not professional--I also grinned happily at the audience at the end of a concert.

Is it somehow beneath their dignity to act like they actually enjoy their work--and like the fact that we think they're great? Don't they think it's important to build rapport between the performers and the audience? Would they rather that we didn't come back?

Folk performers have always smiled at the audience at every concert I've been to. They act like they genuinely like us.

This gripe therefore has only to do with classical concerts--anybody had similar experience at a classical concert?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:47 AM

"by the one excerpt"

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:56 AM

"Don't they think it's important to build rapport between the performers and the audience? "

No. In classical music, the orchestral player doesn't exist, has no identity, is merely an extension of the conductor's baton. The conductor exists, as do the soloists.

That is one reason I don't like playing in orchestras. (The other is that my music reading isn't good enough).

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Scrump
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 11:53 AM

Don't forget the musicians need to warm up a little as well as the instruments. In folk clubs I've found it fairly common for people to play around a bit on their instruments before the proper scheduled events get under way. Many clubs don't have the luxury of a green room or space away from the main area, to tune up / warm up, etc. But most theatres do, so small band and solo artists will normally do this off-stage. But I guess it might be different for a large orchestra who would want to practice together. But I realise it would be highly unusual for them to do this on stage just before the actual concert. Maybe they were amateur players and had come straight from work or whatever?

What was the actual concert like? To me that would be the most important thing - I wouldn't care about what happened beforehand, providing they put on a good performance.

As for tuning, I always tune my guitars before I go out, then when I get there, then if I get a chance (and I don't always, depending on where it is) I check just before I go on. And of course during a set I occasionally have to tweak the tuning of the odd string or two.

I'm often surprised at how many guitarists tuen between different tunings on stage - I wouldn't want to do that, and would prefer to have more than one guitar tuned appropriately (but I realise there are often good reasons why this can't be done).

As for Martin Carthy, I don't know whether he's become less of a perfectionist with regard to his tuning, or what, but last time I saw him (a month or so ago) he didn't spend any more time tuning than any average guitar player (unlike the previous time I saw him where he seemed to spend ages between each song before he was happy with it).

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:09 PM

I do agree that EXCESSIVE tuning is wrong. IF the classical group that Leeneia saw did that before EVERY piece, then I would demand my money back.

I saw a group - an old-timey string band, that was highly recommended. I was hoping to book them for the Hurdy Gurdy Folk Music Club, but when I saw them it was awful. They would spend up to five minutes tuning between every song or tune - trying to get in sync with each other and occasionally arugeing about who was in tune. I could tell the audience was restless and not happy. It is one thing to be an amateur and play for fun, but when you expect people to pay to watch you perform I would hope that tuning would not be such an ordeal.   

Again, based on what I read from Leeneia's original note, I think the classical group was well within acceptable behavior and it would not be an issue.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:22 PM

I just don't get this thread's premise. The pre concert tuning, practice, letting the instruments settle into the house, and the resulting mulligan's stew of sound, is an important part of the experience. Sometimes I just sit there and enjoy it in its totality, and then I will focus in on a player and pick their notes out of the cacaphony. I remember when I first saw Riverdance, in Chicago the first year it came to the States, one of the most enjoyable times was watching/listening the musicians area. To me, the listening to this sound stew, then having the focus sharpen on the A, then silence. Then the conductor comes, and the cacophony of sound is reborn as a beautiful score..... damn, I want to go right now.

It is all part of the experience, IMO, and each part should be enjoyed for the creation experience it is.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: MMario
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:25 PM

well - I can't say it is always pleasant to listen to tune ups - but the only practical alternative is to prevent any audience seating until it has finished. Given the two options - I'll listen to the tuning and testing and sound checks.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:44 PM

There is a difference between tuning up and warming up and rehearsing.

In 20 years of UK concert going I have heard much tuning up a little warming up but no rehearsing. As it should be ?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:52 PM

Well, I for one certainly agree with you, John. The orchestra should be ready and the audience should be given courteous treatment.


I've been active in a group which sponsors traditional music, and certainly we have sound checks. However, the sound checks are over way before the audience enters the hall.   We like the audience to come to an event that is running smoothly and all ready to go.
----------
"Jan feels strongly (and I agree, actually)---that they have good jobs, good pay, and do good work. When an audience shows its strong approval, the least they could do is smile at us."

Jan, I agree with this, too. When the music is over, the performers should stop pretending that we audience members do not exist.

Somebody asked how the concert was. Well, the Vivaldi was excellent, and the Haydn was well performed, but I thought the composition was rather pedestrian. The Bach cantata was very good, except that in the first chorale (Wachet auf) the French horn almost drowned out the entire choir. As Bertie Wooster would have said, "I mean to say - what?"

Do classical orchestras do the equivalent of sound checks, I wonder. By that I mean having someone sit in the audience area during rehearsal and report on sound quality. I think perhaps they should.

For me the best part was an oboe concerto by Vivaldi. The oboist was a young woman named Margaret Somebody, and she played the most beautiful oboe music I have ever heard.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 10:33 AM

the Haydn was well performed, but I thought the composition was rather pedestrian

He's dead, so go on, say what you like about him :-)

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 10:48 AM

How long did this supposed infraction of concert etiquete go on? I am still not convinced that you were not hearing a combination of tuning/warm up that takes place at every single classical event I've ever been to. The fact that you referred to it as "all too common" leads me to believe that you were hearing the normal tuning and not a last minute rehearsal.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:22 AM

Back when I wore a tux and bow tie when performing, such things were pretty standard. One thing I made sure I did was run through the common tunings on my drums and make sure everything was solid and nothing had gone wonky when they were moved on stage. Then check to be sure that the "feel" to each tuning combination was still as expected - amazing how close you can get a set of timpani you are familiar with simply by the "feel" of the pedals, before ever checking the tone. Natural heads will react differently under given circumstances - it gave me a chance for a final check before the concert master came out and wanted me to pay attention (bloody fiddles...) Did the same thing when I had a snare, or other drum, to play in a concert - always made sure I knew precisely how it would feel and respond that evening in that hall under that lighting arrangement - and make changes as needed.

I suspect much of what was going on was musicians checking wee snippets on their instruments knowing that if things would go wonky - that was where it would be noticed.

No longer a "percussionist" - even sold the tux (not that it would fit me anymore) - much happier as a drummer.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM

Wow, you really mean it, leeneia! I just thought you were teasing.

Warming up is more than just tuning up, true enough. The same way that when athletes warm up it's more than just tying their shoelaces.

I suspect that you are very much in a minority here leeneia, and that most people in an audience actually welcome the cacophony at the start of a concert, and find it helps them to warm up and get ready for the music.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: leeneia
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:42 PM

Yes, I really mean it. Just as I would never invite diners to my house and make them watch me gut a chicken, I would never invite music-lovers to a hall and expect them to endure chaotic practice.

We don't do that to people in church, we don't do that at our traditional music concerts, and we don't do it when our early-music band plays. The professionals should not be so elitist as to do it to me.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Rowan
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:47 PM

From various of the postings above I get the impression that some people are only really familiar with contexts that don't include orchestral performances; there are many, quite different performance contexts. I'd expect any orchestra to do the procedure leeneia describes and it has all the benefits that others have mentioned; even the best environments change their acoustic brightness once the lights heat the room and the audience arrives. But I wouldn't expect a string quartet or a clarinet quintet to do it, nor any other ensemble.

I've always prefered doing the mic settings and sound checks well before the actual performance and in the absence of an audience, but in those situations there's almost always been a mixing desk out in or behind the audience, and a good mixer can do the final minor adjustments on the fly to ensure the audience gets to hear what the band thinks it is producing.

And, while I try to be professional in my endeavours, I'm well aware that the root of the word "amateur" is (more or less) "lover".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:54 PM

Since it was an orchestra, main question appears to be--how long did the warming-up go on? A few minutes probably--until the conductor arrived on stage. That would be standard.


Paul--

Back to the other question--the one I brought up. My point is that actually it IS important to build rapport between the orchestra and the audience--if the orchestra members want continued employment there. Orchestras (in the US, at any rate) are coming under a lot of pressure. I've read that some are effectively pricing themselves out of jobs. The audience for classical concerts is aging---rapidly. Some orchestras are merging--or even disbanding. (Big article in the Wall St Journal on this recently). Alienating audience members is just not smart. And smiling will cost nothing.

I also disagree, from experience in playing in orchestras, that the orchestra player is just an extension of the conductor's baton. Sure everybody in the orchestra is part of a unit. But it's a unit dedicated, at least in theory, to a wonderful goal--making great music on the page come alive in performance.

Again, any orchestra member who doesn't like that job should look for another--there may well be enough people who would be willing to take a well-paid, high-prestige job in the National Symphony. Somehow I don't think the positions would remain unfilled.

It would be a shame if many orchestra members share your, to say the least, jaundiced view of making music in an orchestra as a profession.





Leenia-- you also find that orchestra members at the end of the concert just stand there looking glum--as if they are sorry to have been forced to play the concert?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: leeneia
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 10:59 AM

"you also find that orchestra members at the end of the concert just stand there looking glum?"

I'm so far away that I can't tell, but I suspect that in most cases you are right. I believe it shows lack of stage presence.

I'm not as negative as River City's music critic, who wrote a nasty, snide review of this concert. It wasn't perfect, but it certainly didn't deserve what he wrote. I wonder wny small-city music critics seem more interested in destroying others' efforts than encouraging them?

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 11:25 AM

All classical orchestras warm up before the concert master tunes everyone to A.
It is rude on your part to complain about it.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 11:32 AM

I used to go to the Royal albert Hall when I lived in the UK and would agree that the pre-performance cacophany was an integral part of the evening.

I was told that the tone of the instruments can be changed by the atmospheric conditions, the number of people in the hall and just by moving the instruments from one room to another. One musician once told me that some of the sound is because the musicians themselves want to get 'warmed up' and just get their muscles ready for the work to come.

Whatever the reason this warm up has always been a part of a classical music recital for me and adds to the anticipation for the music to come.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 12:12 PM

I was at Hitchin one night for Martin Carthy (I'd always been a big fan, saw him several times since the '70s) and he did exactly what Greg said earlier in the thread, tuned and tuned and better tuned ad nauseam. Sorry, but it was so bloody tedious that I lost patience and left at the break - just had to get out of there.

Martin Simpson did the same thing at Towersey last year, kept moaning on about the variable acoustics in the marquee that separated him from perfection. Has nobody told these people that it really is not so important that you can drive your audience to distraction while striving for perfect tune?

Terry

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: jeffp
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 12:33 PM

I wonder wny small-city music critics seem more interested in destroying others' efforts than encouraging them?

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can do neither, criticize.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 01:20 PM

"I wonder wny small-city music critics seem more interested in destroying others' efforts than encouraging them?"

It's much easier to write a sneering, mocking review, and make it entertaining to read. That's not just in the local press, or in classical concert reviews. Lazy critics do it in all contexts - music, films, TV, books...
.......................................

But as for your dislike of the tuning up/warming up part of the evening in orchestral concerts, leeneia, I really think you are probably in a small minority in finding it objectionable, and that most people actually enjoy it.

Might as well complain about classical musicians dressing up for the occasion, it's part of the tradition.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 01:43 PM

That's it, really, it is traditional and I wouldn't miss it, either as a violinist or audience member, for anything. Big Mick put it very well, as have others.

As for them not smiling: it is a classical concert. Yes, times have changed and it may do for them become a bit more relaxed (some already have in my experience,) but, not smiling or engaging the audience at the end, is also traditional. That's one reason it's always been called "serious" music!;->

Ah, though, wouldn't it be wonderful if we had more who followed in Leonard Bernstein's footsteps, esp. his young people's concerts?

If you don't like the pre-concert tune-ups, perhaps you should plan accordingly and slip in just as they close the hall doors.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:31 PM

Kat--

Say it ain't so. Not smiling--at the end of the concert, when the audience is giving you a standing ovation--is necessary for music to be serious?

I'm sorry to say that don't make too awful much sense.

We are a serious choral group--sing mostly in the Kennedy Center---usually do pieces along the lines of the Bach B-Minor, Brahms Requiem, Belshazzar's Feast, Rachmaninoff Vespers etc--and concentrate completely on the conductor and the music during the concert. ( Actually, we've also sung in the Albert Hall, Red Square in Moscow, the Spoleto Festival, and the Teatro Colon in Buenos Aires., among other venues.) But when the concert is over, we gratefully acknowledge any ovation--and smile broadly at the audience. As far as I know, nobody has ever complained we thereby detracted from the "seriousness" of the music.

And even if there were something to it, times are changing for orchestras--and not for the better. Having ONCE subscribed to a season, I have gotten begging letters and phone calls ever since.

I'd say that indicates a bit of financial pressure. And as the WSJ confirms, that is correct.

So it's not actually very smart for orchestras to lose ANY opportunity to connect with their audiences. And they had best see this soon. You can be deadly serious during the concert--but afterwards, it will cost nothing to smile at the audience. And in fact the concertmistress in the National Symphony does it---but no other orchestra member. And what the audience--at least part of it-- takes from that is: "Gee, it sure was a burden to do that for you. I can't believe you actually like that piece. Now please go home".

Fine, but it doesn't make us eager to hurry back.

Orchestras are already trying all sorts of rather demeaning approaches to attracting audiences--"Music From the Movies", "A Star Wars Festival"--or similar. I read about this sort of stuff a lot.

Smiling at the audience at the end of the concert, by comparison, can't exactly be seen as terrible self-abasement---and might even yield dividends.


Worshipping at the shrine of St Cecilia does not have to be a somber occasion.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:33 PM

FLASH---Jan informs me that both the London Philharmonic and the London Symphony both smile at the audience at the end of concerts.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:35 PM

too many "both"s

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 10:28 PM

Ron, all I said was it was a "tradition." I don't have a problem with folks smiling, but, in the past, it has been "trad" to be *serious.*;->

When my brother performed his classical works back East, we always smiled and engaged the audience.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 10:53 AM

They can be quite rowdy, especially at the Proms. Sometimes they clap and cheer the soloist or the conductor.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 12:00 PM

I can't speak for the string players, but if you listen to what the woodwinds are noodling before the performance it's often the phrases that put the greatest demands on your reed and embouchure. Something like that flute solo in Janacek's Sinfonietta that goes screaming into the stratosphere at unbelievable speed in A flat minor. I doubt there is a flute player in the world who wouldn't want to do a last-minute flight check for that one.

Subject: RE: my letter to the editor
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:21 AM

The whole point of the pre-performance tune-up is to make sure that the performance itself goes as well as possible. I'm sure those who object to having to listen to the tune-up would be the first to complain if the performance was out of tune.

As for excessive tuning on stage, the best artists can do this while introducing the next song, or telling a joke, etc. It comes down to stagecraft.