Lyr Req: John Ball (Sydney Carter)

Subject: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Jess A
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 07:57 AM

Hiya,

I've been looking through old threads and have gathered that there are all sorts of copyright issues hence Sydney Carter's John Ball not being in the Digital Tradition.... I've got various copies of the words from the web but there are subtle variations between all of them. What I'd really like to know is, did Sydney Carter record or publish this song anywhere so that I can track down a definitive version of the words and tune? Wouldn't bother me for a traditional song but given this was relatively recently written I think it only fair to find out what he really intended...

thanks,

Jess A

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: GUEST,Peter Taylor
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:59 AM

Sydney Carter's songs are published by Stainer & Bell, and John Bull is in In the Present Tense Book 5. It is recorded on a variety of CDs, Lovely in the Dances-the songs of Sydney Carter, various artists, A True-hearted Girl, Norma, Lal and Eliza, Anchored to the Time, Grace Notes, to name but three, but I don't know whether Sydney ever recorded it. Keith Kendrick and/or Sylvia Needham have a particular interest and may know more.

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Jess A
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:01 AM

thank you, exactly the kind of info I was looking for! I shall see if I can track down a copy of the book you mentioned...

Jess

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: breezy
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:17 AM

Its a song that is much associated with St Albans as its where the the trial and sentence were carried out

We perform it on a failry regular basis

Sunday Folk Club at the Comfort Hotel, Holywell Hill

main Guest Steve 'the singing ref' Last

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:27 PM

And there are no "definitive" versions of Sydney Carter's songs. He didn't believe in that kind of thing, and used to vary both the words and the tunes when he sang his songs; and he welcomed it when other people did the same.

"There is nothing final in the songs I write, not even the words, the rhythm and the melody. This is not an oversight; I would like them to keep on growing, like a tree."

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: GUEST,Peter Taylor
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 10:10 AM

I saw both Sylvia and Keith last night and passed the details on, so they may be coming up with a contribution.

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 12:25 PM

I think this was actually removed from the mudcat due to copyright issues!!

Ray

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 07:47 PM

Yeah, but that was the publisher. And I believe Sydney Carter wasn't in any position to have any say in it by that time, because of Alzheimer's.

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM

There were a very few folks or companies who decided to ask Mudcat to remove copyrighted material. Many more gave explicit permission to allow their stuff to be included.

Mudcat complied with stated wishes.

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:15 AM

Many thanks for the enlightenment last two posts
Ray

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Jess A
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 09:03 AM

Many many thanks to those of you who helped on this one, I have now purchased a copy of the Stainer & Bell booklet 'In the Present Tense Book 5' which contains John Ball (not John Bull, even though that's what the listing on their website called it - when I queried this with them they said it was a typo!). It arrived in the post yesterday!

Interestingly the version of the words and tune in the book are similar but not identical to what I'd learned, and thanks to the quote from McGrath of Harlow I'm now happy to stick with what feels nicest & most comfortable (to me!) to sing rather than what was printed, on the assumption that Sydney Carter wouldn't have minded!

I did think it worth checking though. If we end up recording this (which we might well do) it feels better to have checked it all out for a song so recently written.

Jess A

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 09:43 PM

G'day Jess A,

I glad to see you bought In the Present Tense Book 5 ... and that you appear to have been able to read the lyrics!

The first four books, printed back in the '70s by Galliard were a bit taxing for most ... being set in (roughly) 7-point type. Once Stainer & Bell bought out Galliard the 5th book was, for reasons known only to S & B, set in (~) 5-point.

I have good close vision - but I wasn't impressed. I showed it to my wife, asking what she thought of the lyrics' type ... and she said: "What type? Do you mean that faint grey blur?". I have no idea why they made it so small - there was adequate room for much better-sized type ... Maybe it was to make it 'harder to photocopy', since they seem worried about returns on their copyright investments.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 02:44 AM

Jess

Chris Wood sang a version as the opening number in his set at Haddenham last Saturday, and I seem to remember thinking it was subtly varied from the version I sometimes sing! I think I learned it by osmosis from Dave and Anni.

Kitty

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Bob Murray
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 08:19 PM

I've been singing this one about recently. Soon after learning it a few months ago (from Annie Grace, and her version is a wee bit altered from the original) I found the desire to change it further. I've scrapped the verse that refers to Adam and Eve, and added the two following verses at the end;

Who will inherit,
Who will be the poor,
Who can be poor in the love of one another ?
Who will inherit,
Who will be the poor,
In the light that is coming in the morning ?

A' the bairns o' Adam,
A' the bairns o' Eve -
Kings and Queens in the love of one another.
A' the bairns o' Adam,
A' the bairns o' Eve,
In the light that is coming in the morning.

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:16 AM

Judy Adicott, who is a marvellous traditional singer, knows John Ball. She's sung it many times at Llantrisant Folk Club. I'll ask her on Wednesday, and she's totally interested about not letting the song die. please pm me.

Mick Tems

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 01:46 PM

I very much doubt if this is a song that is going to die in a hurry.

Of course there is room for misunderstanding. I remember a request for it - "Could we have that song about Pope John Paul?" I think Sydney Carter would have enjoyed that.

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Trainer54
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 03:03 AM

...and it now appears on Chris Wood's new CD - Trespasser

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: mattkeen
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 05:03 AM

It certainly does and Chris has been singing it at solo and English Acoustic Collective Gigs recently

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: mattkeen
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 05:04 AM

Happy to also say that Sydney was a fine Quaker.

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 06:28 AM

The Adam and Eve verses tie the song to John Ball and the Peasant's Revolt of 1381. "When Adam delved and Eva span, who was then the Gentleman" is reputed to be the watchword of that revolt.

Subject: RE: John Ball published anywhere?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 11:37 AM

The words are in the Lyr add thread linked above

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: GUEST,Pete Henry
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:06 AM

Hi!

I am just a beginner at trying to sing Sydney Carter songs and in particular John Ball. Wondered if any one out there could clue me up on the chord sequence.

Peter

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: JohnB
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:02 AM

Chris Wood singing JohnBall
I play it in "Dropped D" must admit Chris plays it better than I do.
JohnB.