Copyright a demo recording?

Subject: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,Susan E.
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 03:37 PM

I'm going to be making a demo soon of Traditional Folk songs (accompanying myself on guitar.) After the demo is completed, should I have it copyrighted before sending a copy to the independent record labels (the label heads have heard me sing live, and want to have a demo to listen to as well.) My voice is my main instrument, but, I'll play the guitar as well. My songs and guitar work is prepared. Any tips for a first timer in the recording studio?

Susan

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 04:19 PM

I would go ahead and register copyright. It doesn't cost much and it protects you against anyone using your recording without your express permission. The fact of registering copyright gives you a definite date of creation and also gives you the right to seek damages in case of infringement. If you don't register, the best you can do in case of infringement is stop the infringement.

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 11:04 PM

Traditional Folk

There is no copyright.

Why flatter yourself...believing that your's, out of 10,000 will be the one???

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Inside of ten seconds, your "original" can be morphed into a "new" creation.

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 11:07 PM

Susan - place music and DIY (do it yourself) into a search-box.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Be humbled....and ask for a return of your advanced fee.

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:24 AM

This is probably a good time to read "All You Need to Know About the Music Business", by Donald Passman. It gives solid, detailed information on copyrights, contracts, and such things. He is a top music attorney, and knows all the pitfalls, and he tells you what they are and how to deal with them. You can find it at Amazon for less than twenty bucks, and, you can write it off on your income tax.

And Gargoyle is wrong--you can copyright a recording--

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: Bert
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:21 AM

Well personally, if they are traditional songs, I would not bother to copyright them.

After all this is a demo and you want as many copies out there as possible, so if anybody copies them and passes them along it is to your advantage. And as Gargoyle says, they are not yours anyway.

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: treewind
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:29 AM

"they are not yours anyway"
Nonsense. The songs may not be but copyright exists in a recorded performance, quite separately from the copyright (or lack of it if old and trad) in the words and tune of a song.

But you have a point about this being a demo.

I make a demo with incomplete songs - 1-2 minute extracts. That way nobody can steal them to sell. It's enough to tell an organiser, agent or recording label manager whether your sound is what they want.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,Steveimon
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:39 AM

You already hold the copyright if you did the recording. There isn't anyhting else you need to do

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:33 AM

I agree with Anahata - there is a difference between copyright of the song itself (which you can't do for a traditional song) and your recording of the song (which is protected by law from illegal copying).

But as Bert says, the purpose of a demo is to spread the word and hopefully get bookings etc., so why be too precious about it? You (presumably, anyway) want as many people as possible to hear you, so if they copy a demo and pass it on, that's good news for you (or should be).

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:44 AM

As to the point about copyrighting your demo--you can do it, though I agree with the points above--there probably isn't much to be gained by it, except as a bit of practice for next time--

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,Susan E.
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:26 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I asked the question because a guy from an indie label wants to put one of my recorded traditional songs on one of his promo vinyl dics (a disc featuring different artists on his label.) Since I have yet to sign with his label (I'm not sure I will), I will need to protect the copyright just in case I decide I don't want to sign with his label. The reason I'm going to give him a copy of my demo is for him to listen to it, and also decide which song he wants to use on his promo record (which is SOLD in area record shops ,etc. I feel it will be good publicity for me to help get my name before the public. I just want to make sure he can't use my recording without my permission (if after giving him a demo to listen to, I decide not to sign with him.) I'll go ahead and copyright my performance and maybe even talk with an entertainment lawyer to make sure I do this the right way.

Thanks,
Susan

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:02 PM

As I understand it , you may not be able to copyright a Traditional song , BUT the recording AND the arrangement thereof are well worth protecting !

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 02:23 AM

Oh for Christs sake when will you people get the hang of 'copyright', we've had this issue before on mudcat, steveiemon is right, you don't have to register, pay a fee or anything else! if you have arranged a song in a particular way with a particular accompaniment then the copyright to THAT particular recording is already yours automatically!!! If you're that unsure go and get yourself a copy of the copyrights designs and patents act of 1988 from H.M.S.O. (I've got one)you don't have to stick words to songs, tapes or anything else in registered letters and post the to yourselves, YOU'VE ALREADY GOT IT!!!
...I'm sorry...I do get worked up about these things...

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: treewind
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 02:57 AM

Bruce, I think it depends on where you are. For example, in the UK, certainly copyright exists by default in anything you produce, but in the USA, I believe you have to take some action to assert your ownership of copyright. (I'm not sure where Susan E. is, maybe some other jurisdiction altogether for all I know)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:50 AM

...Yes, fair enough, I do believe you're right!

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 09:30 AM

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Uncle Bud' Obscene Southern US Song
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 01:53 AM

Yourbiggest danger is not having your recording "ripped off", exactly--it comes from things like signing exclusive management contracts, or exlusive recording contracts that, in effect, give someone else control of what you can or cannot do.

Posted this thought to the "Uncle Bud" thread last night, by accident--

Consider this example: Artist A cuts a demo--record company B offers to promote it a little bit, try to get some airplay, "and if we get some buzz, we'll produce a full album." Sounds great to Artist A, so some papers are drawn up. Nothing happens, and Artist A goes on playing here and there for a couple of years. Then record company C gets very interested, and record company B steps in and says, "No--you've contracted to record two albums with us, and, on top of that, you owe us $50,000 for promoting the demo."

Or maybe Artist A recorded the album, but the promotion was bad and it flopped. Then, ten years later, Record company D want to re-release it, or even re-record it, and record company B says, "No. We own the recordings, and hold the publishing rights to the music."

That's the stuff that'll kill you, and that's why you have to know as much as you can before you even sit down with anyone.

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 09:33 AM

yes, in the US copyright exists on creation of the recording - but unless *registered* it is next to impossible to enforce.

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 09:43 AM

The reason that it is difficult to enforce is simply that when you don't formally register, copywrite, publish, etc, and there is a problem, you've got to pay the lawyers upfront yourself, and they've got to go to go to through the judicial process to establish your rights.

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: Fidjit
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:00 PM

Ok.
So we're going to copywrite something.
Who do we talk to first?
And then what?

Chas

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:06 PM

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM

I'm in the US. I'm reading a book on contracts, management, etc. I'm going to try to avoid exclusive management and/or recording contracts. I don't like the thought of someone having artistic control over me (not that I'm a controlling personality.) Great
thread btw!

Susan

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 11:51 PM

Have you got the Passman book? ( I have a lot of music industry "advice" books, and his is by far the best) He talks about the fact that, like it or not, the contracts always favor the recording companies, and you have to use whatever leverage you can (which, at least to start, is not much) to trim them back to something, if not reasonable, at least liveable.

The most leverage you can get is to record an "independent" record that gets airplay and creates interest.

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM

I'll pick up the Passman book this weekend. Thanks MTed.

Susan

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: Suffet
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 02:04 PM

Greetings:

I met with an attorney for a one hour consultation before releasing my first CD, and in a nutshell here is what he told me about current copyright law in the USA:

• The US Copyright Office does not issue copyrights in the sense that the US Patent Office issues patents. What it does is register copyright claims.

• You own the copyright by virtue of creating a work, unless it was a "work for hire," in which case the person who hired you owns the copyright.

• The copyright extends only to the work you did, not to any pre-existing work.. If you wrote a song from scratch, then your copyright covers the entire work. If you added new lyrics, new music, or a new arrangement to an existing song, then your copyright only covers what you added.

• You can also own the copyright to the recording of a particular performance or set of performances, including an album released on CD. This is separate from owning the copyright to the songs, and requires a separate registration.

• To register the copyright for a song or collection of songs, unpublished or published, use Form PA (work of performing art). To register the copyright for a performance or set of performances, use Form SR (sound recording) once the CD has been released.

• Here is something that is often forgotten. Although you may lawfully own the copyright for a particular song by virtue of having written it, and although you are not required to register your copyright unless you choose to do so, in the USA no one is under any obligation to pay you the statutory licensing fee for recording (covering) your song until your copyright is registered. The logic is simple. How is anyone supposed to know that the illustrious Mr. Tin Pan Alley owns the copyright to The Brass Spitoon Shuffle until he registers it with the US Copyright Office?

• There is also another important reason to register a copyright. It's prima facia eveidence that the person who registers a copyright first is the rightful owner. If you believe that some low down skunk stole your song, you will have the burden of proof that your allegation is true if his copyright registration predates yours.

The bottom line is pay the fee and send in the forms and recordings!

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: Darowyn
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 03:45 PM

A further thought, the mechanical copyright in a recording - that is the right to make copies of that recording, belongs to the person who "facilitated" the recording.
In other words, if a record company books you into a studio to record a demo,, they have the right to make copies.
If I let you record free in my studio, I have the mechanical copyright.
If I record in the College studio, the College owns the right to make copies of the recording.
This is completely separate from the composers' or arranger's copyright, and performer's copyright does not exist.
In my opinion, copyright paranoia of a major excuse for never getting your music out there.
What is the point or profit in holding copyright in something nobody has ever heard?
As for your Compilation problem, see a lawyer and get a single song deal set up. As soon as your track is mastered onto a compilation CD, a whole new ballgame opens up- because it is not entirely your track any more.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM

Good information Darowyn! I'll look into that.

Peace,
Susan

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: Suffet
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 02:14 PM

Susan,

Do so, but remember that what Dave (Darrowyn) is referring to is the mechanical copyright of the particular performance. The copyright belongs to the producer because he, she, they, or it is deemed to have created the mechanical recording of the performance. In the USA that would mean the kind of copyright that a producer would register with Form SR, and it gives protection against piracy of that performance.

That does not in any way mean the producer owns the copyright to the underlying songs themselves. As both Dave and I have pointed out, that is an entirely separate matter. You would register your copyright for the songs or collection of songs you created by filing Form PA.

In your case, which involves a demo CD rather than a finished product ready for commercial distribution, it seems that your primary concern is protecting the songs themselves. For that you need to use Form PA.

In my case, to give just one example, I recently recorded a Utah Phillips song, Rock Me to Sleep. On Strike Music, Utah Phillips' publisher, owns the copyright to the song itself, since he assigned it to them. I, however, own the copyright to that particular recording, since I am the producer of the CD on which it is being released. If someone else wants to record Rock Me to Sleep, he or she only needs to get a license from On Strike Music. However, if someone wants to reproduce my particular recording on a compilation CD, he or she would need licenses from both On Strike Music and from me.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 06:41 PM

If you want to register both the recording and the songs on the recording yourself, you can use Form SR.http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ56a.html Most of the standard information on copywrites is on this sight--a lawyer will tell you the same stuff, and some will even charge you for it-

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: Suffet
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 12:14 AM

Greetings:

What M. Ted says about Form SR is true if and only if the owner of the copyrights of the songs (musical compositions) and the sound recording is exactly the same. That may or may not be the case in any particular situation.

For example, with my latest CD, I am the sole copyright ownner for the songs I wrote by myself, I share ownership of the copyrights for the songs that I wrote with co-authors, and I own the copyrights for the arrangements of several traditional songs, while the songs themselves are in the public domain. In addition, there are two songs for which I do not own the copyrights at all, but for which I had to pay licensing fees to the copyright owners through the Harry Fox Agency. Because of this, I can only register the copyright for the CD itself on Form SR. To register the copyrights for the songs, I had to file four separate copies of Form PA: one for the group of songs I wrote by myself, one for the group of traditional songs I arranged, one for the song I co-authored with Joel Landy, and one for the song I co-authored with Anne Price.

The US Copyright Office website is helpful, but if your situation is anything other than the very simplest it is worth seeing an attorney for a one-time consultation.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Copyright a demo recording?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 01:01 AM

Actually, a good music attorney will be able to make important connections for you--the form filing stuff, confusing as it can be, is cut and dried-a good music attorney can help you to find the right record company, connect you to good management, and will negotiate the contracts as well.