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BS: Anglicisms

GUEST 04 Dec 06 - 12:59 AM
Bert 04 Dec 06 - 01:10 AM
Splott Man 04 Dec 06 - 04:34 AM
GUEST, ... 04 Dec 06 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 04 Dec 06 - 09:38 AM
Liz the Squeak 04 Dec 06 - 10:16 AM
Bill D 04 Dec 06 - 10:23 AM
GUEST 04 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM
Paul Burke 04 Dec 06 - 11:14 AM
Bill D 04 Dec 06 - 11:18 AM
MartinRyan 04 Dec 06 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,memyself 04 Dec 06 - 12:03 PM
MartinRyan 04 Dec 06 - 12:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Dec 06 - 12:35 PM
Paul Burke 04 Dec 06 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 06 - 01:15 PM
NH Dave 04 Dec 06 - 01:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Dec 06 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,memyself 04 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 06 - 04:34 PM
bobad 04 Dec 06 - 04:47 PM
Paul from Hull 04 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,memyself 04 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM
Shields Folk 04 Dec 06 - 05:21 PM
bobad 04 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM
Paul from Hull 04 Dec 06 - 05:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM
Paul from Hull 04 Dec 06 - 05:49 PM
GUEST, Topsie 05 Dec 06 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 05 Dec 06 - 07:15 AM
Les from Hull 05 Dec 06 - 09:59 AM
Liz the Squeak 05 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM
Paul from Hull 05 Dec 06 - 11:47 AM
Bert 05 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM
Les from Hull 05 Dec 06 - 12:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Dec 06 - 12:19 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 05 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Dec 06 - 02:09 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Dec 06 - 04:12 PM
MartinRyan 05 Dec 06 - 04:22 PM
Shields Folk 05 Dec 06 - 06:04 PM

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Subject: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:59 AM

Sometimes I run across phrases I'm not familiar with in British writing. Can someone tell me what 'plumped' means? As in, "After that, the police advised the family to stay indoors until they had decided whom to arrest. There deliberations were long and earnest before they plumped for Lizzie."

But I do know what "Clever clogs get scragged in the bog" means.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Bert
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:10 AM

In that context it means "chose".


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Splott Man
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:34 AM

There's a subtext of "not what I would have gone for, given a real choice" about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST, ...
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:50 AM

There is also a suggestion that they were not quite sure and this was their best guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:38 AM

Thank you. The quoted text is from an article about Lizzie Borden, America's notorious ax-murderess (pardon me, alleged ax-murderess). They found her not guilty and never charged anyone else.

Lizzie Borden took an axe
And gave her mother forty whacks
When she saw what she had done
She gave her mother forty-one

'Chose' (reluctantly) is the definition I would have plumped for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:16 AM

So that would be an axe-murderess then...?

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:23 AM

I can have things like this explained so that I know what was meant, but the minds boggles wondering why that particular word is used that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM

You know, there is an E on the end of 'axe' in the article. I guess I've fallen victim to the American habit of shortening things for speed and convenience. But at least I know enough to ax when in doubt. And technically the Bordens were killed with a hatchet, as if that makes them any less dead. Also, it occurred to me what an odd choice 'plump' would be as a stand-in for 'choose.' Why not 'snarf'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:14 AM

If the English don't write 'oxe', 'boxe','foxe' or 'sexe', why do they write 'axe' and not 'ax'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:18 AM

I 'spose ya could ax 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:01 PM

On "plump" as a verb: the sense is not so much "to choose" as "to make a sudden declaration of support for". The root is thought to be a Dutch word meaning "falling into water"!

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:03 PM

Now that makes sense - about as much sense as everything else in the English language ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:27 PM

... or the Dutch, for that matter!

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:35 PM

Haven't "murderesses" gone the same way as "actresses", who now get called "actors"? (Mind you, "as the actress said to the bishop" takes on a different timbre when it becomes ""as the actor said to the bishop".)


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:07 PM

My daughter was a monstress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:15 PM

Well if it's Dutch then in probably doesn't have any butter on it (from a list I have somewhere of their provincial sayings).

The muderer-murderess issue would come more under the heading of sexist reorientation of the language, wouldn't it? Not an Anglicaism issue. I've never understood the need for the distinction between -er and -ess. Maybe someone can explain why the -ess needs to be dropped from the language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: NH Dave
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:57 PM

While these aren't exactly Anglicisms, take a look at Jackspeak, a dictionary of British naval usage compiled by Capt, Ret. Dr. Rick Jolly, who may have been the only serving man decorated by both sides following the Falkland War, for his actions saving both British and Argentine forces at his field hospital. Jackspeak is available from this web site, and is a good buy no matter how much you have to pay for postage. Americans might note that in most cases postage is less than VAT, so there is some savings there.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:05 PM

I've never understood the need for the distinction between -er and -ess. Mister and mistress would be one case where it's be a confusing to drop the distinction.
................................
plump - sounds rather like a portmanteau from jump and plop, which would be right for jumping in the water.
...................................
The real confusion comes when a English and American usage is different, but not that different it becomes obvious from the context.

I mean, no one is going to be confused for too long by "flats" or "fags" - but sometimes it's not so clear.

Two apparent examples came up in a murder trial a few years back, when an English girl was charged with killing a child in her care - at one point she said that a meeting with her employers was "a regular one", and at another she said she had "popped the baby on the bed".

In England "regular" normally means "on a fixed schedule", and her insistence it was "a regular meeting" was taken as her lying, because it was a meeting where she knew she was going to be reprimanded, and therefore, in an American sense, it was not "a regular meeting", meaning nothing out of the ordinary.

And while "popped down" in England would just mean placed without undue delay, it became clear that the prosecution were interpreting this as an admission that she had just slammed the baby down.

Her American defence team didn't pick up on this ambiguity, and I suspect this was a major factor in the subsequent events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM

There was an excellent commentary on that case and its cross-cultural complications by an English journalist who had been in the States for several years, in the New Yorker some years back. He said that when he regarded her demeanour and general presentation in the trial with his "English eyes", she had a pronounced air of innocence; when he applied his acquired "American eyes", she looked guilty as hell. For example, her downcast eyes would indicate respectful propriety in an English context; in the American context they seemed to indicate evasiveness.

If I have some time later, I'll see if I can find a reference for that article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:34 PM

I just looked it up on Wordweb, and most meanings (The 'chose' meaning is NOT included) imply sitting/coming/falling down with a fleshy noise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: bobad
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:47 PM

The Queen's English is.......well, it ain't what it used to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM

Sorry Guest, but 'chose' really ought to be in there, as its accurate, as are the comments made by Splott Man & the earlier Guest.

The definition Wordweb gave you would hardly fit the context, would it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM

Interesting article - but it raises some questions for North Americans:

What the heck does this mean: "coal was routinely delivered to Buckingham Palace in sex"?

And it's fine to say, "In the 1950s she would have been lorst, but by the 1970s lost", but what is the pronunciation that a Brit gives to the spelling "lorst"? Don't bother trying to explain one that in (cyber) print ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Shields Folk
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:21 PM

Two words, Chumley Warner!


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: bobad
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM

"What the heck does this mean: "coal was routinely delivered to Buckingham Palace in sex"?

It is the royal pronounciation of sacks, I believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:29 PM

I wouldnt have thought her Majesty (Gaw'd bless 'Er) would ever have such a thing as coal delivered to her hice...


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM

I rather think she would. They don't have a coalmine in the basement, after all, and I can't imagine they'd deprive themselves of the luxury of open fires.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:49 PM

Don't harrods do it in Hampers, rather than it coming 'cul de sack'?

*G*


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:23 AM

McGrath of Harlow, 04.05PM

Regarding 'popped' meaning 'slammed' - my bank keeps sending me sales leaflets suggesting that I 'pop into my local branch' (it takes nearly an hour to get there, whichever transport I use, and the same again to get home), which I find really annoying. Maybe I should take them at their word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 07:15 AM

One common use of 'plumping' in the nineteenth century was when an elector used only one vote at a general election. Most constiuencies had two MPs so if (for example) the Liberals put up two candidates but the Tories only had one, a Tory loyalist would simply plump for his party's candidate and not use his second vote as this would mean voting for a Liberal. Poll books often listed the 'plumpers' as a distinct category.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 09:59 AM

On the (British) TV programme 'Call my bluff' - three 'personalities' define an uncommon or archaic English word (we've tons of 'em) three different ways (only one is correct, the other two are bluffs), and then a member of the opposing team has to chose one. If there is really nothing to chose between them and having to chose one the team member would often say 'I'll plump for that one', so often, in fact, that the use of the word was usually remarked upon.

I believe that Wordweb is American, and isn't that what this thread is all about?

I'm not sure I like the word Anglicisms, though. It may be time to stop calling your language English and start calling it American. Or start using French or Spanish or Navajo or something!! Still I'm always glad when helpful 'catters explain American to us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

So when are you going to start explaining Geordie and 'Ull to us southerners then?!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 11:47 AM

Well, Liz, 1st we better explain that there is a World of difference between those two!


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Bert
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM

...start explaining Geordie... Impossible, even the Geordies can't understand each other. *GRIN*

Where's Bill Sables???


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:16 PM

Geordies - they've nowt much t'say anyroad!


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:19 PM

(pained middle class expression)..... why oh why don't the English like their own folk music....?


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM

Re. what to call the language (other than Spanish) commonly spoken in the States, some years ago I was in the train Station in Milan, listening to announcements in a succession of European languages and waiting for one I could understand. When that in (flawless) English English came to an end, I distinctly heard a nearby Italian man describe it to a companion as "American".


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 02:09 PM

Some words considered Anglicisms or Americanisms have been used in both regions for centuries. One just plumps for the usages one is used to hearing in daily speech.

In the sense of 'to vote for', it appears in print in England about 1800, but it occurs in America as well. To vote 'plump' is found in U. S. print of the 1770's, meaning to vote a straight ticket, or, to support the Declaration of Independence (Works of John Adams).

'Plump' appears in English of the 14th c, and has developed many meanings, depending on context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:12 PM

I note that "Answers.com" includes:
phrasal verb - plump for

To aid the cause of by approving or favoring: advocate, back, champion, endorse, get behind, recommend, side with, stand behind, stand by, support, uphold. Idioms: align oneself with, go to bat for, take the part of. See support/oppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:22 PM

I still reckon "choose" has a quite diferent nuance! Basically, "plumping", in our sense, is what you do AFTER choosing.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: Anglicisms
From: Shields Folk
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 06:04 PM

Who mentioned Geordies?
Haddaway n shite ye daft bugga!


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