Definitive Versions

Subject: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 07:15 PM

My wife and I were listening to a R & B Christmas CD I put together a couple of years ago. When The Christmas Song came on by Nat King Cole, we both thoroughly enjoyed hearing it for the millionth time. The song was written by Mel Torme, and he does a wonderful job on it. I offered to play it for my wife, but she knew that no matter how good it might be, nothing could ever top Nat King Cole's version.
Some recordings are like that: someone nails the song so completely that it seems like no one else could ever equal, let alone top it.
Of course, all of this is extremely subjective. That said, there are several recordings that come to mind that, for me, are never likely to be equalled. In that category, I'd put:

   Duncan and Brady, by Dave Van Ronk
   Silent Night, by the Temptations (on the same Christmas CD)
   Fannin' Street, by Leadbelly

I picked these songs, because I've heard other people try to do them, and even though the version might have been fine, it couldn't touch the definitive version (my definitive version.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Effsee
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 10:07 PM

Yeh Jerry, antything NKC did kinda became the definitive version for me, especially "Stardust".

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Johnhenry'shammer
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 10:11 PM

Jimi Hendrix doing Dylan's "All Along the Watchtower."

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Richie
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 10:18 PM

Doc Watson playing/singing Driftwood's "Tennessee Stud."

Richie

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 10:18 PM

Oh come on, Johnhenryetc... Jimi didn't even understand the words! For "None of them along the line/Know what any of it is worth" he mumbles something like "Now the landlord's on the line/..."

A classic mondegreen, and recorded for eternity. I don't mean to demean Jimi, but that one's really bad.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: mrdux
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 12:58 AM

Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, sung by Gene Autrey.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 02:38 AM

Me Ears Are Alight, by Desmong Decker.

eric

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 09:28 AM

The definitive version of Pill, Pill was by Adge Cutler - nobody has done it better.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 09:41 AM

With a Little Help from my Friends..........Joe Cocker
Light my Fire...........Jose Feliciano
White Christmas.........Bing Crosby
Ragtime Cowboy Joe......The Chipmunks

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 10:33 AM

I don't think I've ever heard a definitive version of anything...

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

All good choices (although Ragtime Cowboy Joe by the Chipmunks doesn't Light My Fire.)

And what about all those classic early R & B hits like Tootie Frootie and Ain't That A Shame covered by white bread artists like Pat Boone? Or Earth Angel, covered by the Crew Cuts?

Some artists, like Dave Van Ronk and Mississippi John Hurt recorded a whole handful of songs that will most liekly never be equalled.

The Youngbloods version of Grizzly Bear is another definitive version, for me.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 11:54 AM

I see what Jerry means about songs like "Fannin Street", but I kinda agree with Clinton..though naturally, I have my 'preferred' versions.

I like the way Burl Ives did "Darlin' Corey" (a slower, minor key thing) better than the zippy versions by various Bluegrass bands.

Several songs done years ago by Richard Dyer-Bennet stick in my head as THE way I expect to hear them..maybe because I heard them first, maybe because he was just a pretty good judge of material (yes, I know he was not terribly 'trad' about some things)

I recently heard Johnny Collins and Jim Mageean do "Shawnee Town", and found it by far the best version I have heard, but that is just my personal taste. I'd like to think of it as "definitive", but that term seems 'almost' to be reserved as a synonym for "most popular", as if popular vote determines value.

Hard question to deal with,Jerry.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

I find myself agreeing with Clinton for once.

You think some version is definitive, then you hear someone else sing it, and it defines it differently.

Fairy Tale of New York - how could the Pogues/Kirsty McColl version be matched? Then I heard Christy Moore's, and it did match it.   

I suppose it depends how you define definitive - if it means setting a standard for how good it can be, that's fine. But if it means that the song has been nailed so noone else should feel free to sing it, that means it's killed the song, and I don't go for that

Judy Garland's Over the Rainbow is definitive in the first sense. But I once heard Lonnie Donegan sing it, and it was quite different, and didn't suffer by comparison.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM

As I said, it's all subjective. And, I've ended up hearing a new "definitive" version of a song later which (for me) topped the old one.

I saw a movie recently with a jazz group in a club doing Take Five.
The group was pretty good, but they weren't Dave Brubeck.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 12:39 PM

"I have my 'preferred' versions."

As well, but I find that even those change sometimes depending on my current mood, the phases of the moon, how much beer I might have in me, or a hundred other factors.....

Then again, I find I tend to be WAY more open minded when it coems to music than a LOT of other people....

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 01:05 PM

The definitive version of Dancing Queen is definitely by Abba, IMO.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 01:18 PM

Preferred versions, yes, but the word definitive when applied to music definitely turns me off.


Mis-use of the word.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 02:06 PM

It's always about definitions.. :-)

I chose the word "definitive," not because it is an absolute, or that it means that no one else should do the song, or even that it still could be done "better". I find the word "preferred" too bland, even though it may be more accurate. I'm talking about versions we like (as individuals) wayyyyy more than any other version. "Preferred" can mean anything from slightly preferable, to the version I like by far the most of any I've ever heard. I'm talking more about the "by far the most" end of the spectrum.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM

I'd think "definitive" makes most sense when it means the performance against which others have to be measured. It doesn't rule out the possibility that a performance is going to come about that excels it. (In which case does that one become "definitive", and the other once isn't any more?)

And I think it should always be understood as "definitive for me" because it's such a subjective thing. (For example in that last post I gave two links for Fairy Tale of New York, and for me Christy Moore's would be the definitive one - but I know for many people it'd have to be the other one with the Pogues and Kirsty McColl.)

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:50 AM

The Bonzo Dog Band's version of My Pink Half Of The Drainpipe is IMO the definitive version of that song.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:30 PM

No, Canyons of Your Mind is the definitive version. Or is it The Intro and the Outro?

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 05:39 AM

As it happens, the Bonzos' versions of those two songs are also IMO the definitive versions of them. And as for Rhinocratic Oath, nobody else has come close.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 05:58 PM

June Tabor singing Eric Bogles 'And the band played Waltzing Matilda'
Coal not Dole, as sung by the Oyster Band.

They've just caught the feeling in the songs so well I can't see how it could be done better.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:04 PM

Fats Domino - "Blueberry Hill"

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST,InvisibleInk
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:20 PM

Maybe a little old fashioned, but I'd say I've
never heard a better version of 'Moon River' than
Andy Williams.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:24 PM

Or White Christmas than Bing's.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:07 AM

The Monkees' version of The Monkees Theme ("Hey, Hey, We're the Monkees, and people say we monkey around...") is also pretty much the definitive version of that song, IMO.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: jacqui.c
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:55 AM

I'm Not In Love by 10cc - I've never heard anyone do it half as well.

Kendall's version of Utah Phillips Phoebe Snow - Utah has cited that as the definitive version.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:26 AM

All Along The Watch Tower by Neil Young.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:39 AM

Another meaning of definitive version can be the version made by the person who made the song in the first place. Even where, as a performance it is not the greatest, it does carry a certain authority.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:51 AM

Possibly, although I would call that the original version rather than the definitive one. But I accept it depends on whether it was first recorded by the writer or not - that's not always the case.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:52 AM

If we could only come up with the penultimate definition of definitive...

I am pleased to see Richard Dyer-Bennet get a nomination above. There are certain songs that he recorded that I also refer back to for comparison, songs like "The Bonnie Earl of Murray" and "High Barbary."

But then there is Fraser & DeBolt who broke the mold when they recorded "Armstrong Tourist Rest Home (overnight sensation)."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 09:54 AM

If we could only come up with the penultimate definition of definitive...

Surely "the definitive version of definitive" - "penultimate" is just short of definitive.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:08 PM

Anything that Tom Lehrer wrote, I prefer the version that he sings himself. Most Queen and Beatles songs I also prefer in their original versions.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Den
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:23 PM

How about sets the standard to date. I believe that Paul Brady has done that with Arthur Mc Bride. Anyone I've ever heard do the song (not to be confused with the condensed version done by Planxty) has tried to emulate Brady and not really come close.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 01:58 PM

I dunno' on definitive either, but let's skip the semantics and I'll just give a few that come to mind.

"Don't Think Twice".....Jack Elliott
"Sweetest Gift"..........Emmylou Harris and Linda Ronstadt duet
"Railroad Bill"..........Gillian Welch
"When You and I Were Young" (Maggie)......Sandy Paton

Spaw

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 02:43 PM

So Jerry, which Nat King Cole version of "The Christams Song" do you prefer? I always thought his version was definitive until I heard his other version. Since I heard the version without strings, just the trio, I now think it is much better.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: freightdawg
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:17 PM

Hmmm,

I like Jerry's question, and especially McGrath's erudite comments.

But even "original" has its problems. John Denver's first original recording of "Rocky Mountain High" is noticeably slower and more melancholy than a recording I have closer to his death, which is zippier and more upbeat. Conversely, I have an early recording of "I Guess He'd Rather Be In Colorado" which is flat and unremarkable. Yet, many years later he recorded a version that is full of emotion and much more expressive. Which would be the "original" original, since he "originated" both songs?

For me, (for better or worse) definitive also happens to be "that which I heard first or the most frequently." Ergo, PP&M singing "Blowin in the Wind" is definitive, as is the Kingston Trio singing "Tom Dooley" and "The Sloop John B." I've heard others, some predating said covers, and somehow they just don't sound "right" to my ears.

Still, Bing's "White Christmas" cannot be matched. Nor can Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World". And I also have to mention "The Little Drummer Boy" as performed by the Vienna Boys Choir. Something about boys voices telling the story about a little boy just fits the song more naturally than Celine Dion (or any redneck cowboy, fer cryin' in the grog).

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM

I prefer Ramblin' Jack Elliott's take on "Me and Billy the Kid" over the original Joe Ely (or anybody else's cover, for that matter). It's a great lyrical story-song and that's how Jack treats it, really selling it .

It doesn't hurt that Peter Rowan is helping him out on it either...

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM

Scrump: I have never heard it, but some friends told me that in the sixties, the Fuggs used to sing "Hey, Hey We're The Fuggs" and it was definitely better than the Monkies' version.

catspaw: I haven't heard Sandy's version of When You & I Were Young Maggie, but it would have to be very good to top Tom Rush's version. This is a song that doesn't have a definitive version in my opinion. I sounds great as a ballad, ala Tom Rush or as a banjo breakdown as many bluegrass bands have done it. I love this verse:

They say we are aged and grey, Maggie,
As spray by the white breakers flung.
To me you're as fair as you were, Maggie,
When you and I were young.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:09 PM

Amazing how few folk songs were mentioned. Could it be that, in folk song, the singer is secondary to the song?

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST,Honky Tonk
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:14 PM

The Pogues 'And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda' (The dreaded Tabor's dirge of a version makes me want to kick cats)

Any of The Byrds' Dylan covers

Gordon Lightfoot's 'First Time Ever I Saw Your Face'

Kansas' 'Eleanor Rigby'

Not just my 'preferred versions' but definitive!

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:16 PM

If you do say so yourself.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:29 PM

Hey, KB:

That's an interesting question about Nat King Cole's Christmas song.
I don't think I have a trio version of it, although I have a ton of his trio recordings. You've got me wondering. I guess that I'll have to pull them out and see if I have it.

I also think that the first version of the song (even if it is far from the original) often ends up being the one we like most. I will forever love Lonnie Donnegan's Rock Island Line. On the whole, I think that I like Leadbelly's body of work better than Lonnie's (not that it makes any sense comparing them.) But, I must admit that I was very disappointed when I heard Leadbelly's recording of Rock Island Line.

Another great "definitive" version of a song, for me, is Chuck Miller's House of Blue Lights. This was mentioned in another thread, and someone else thought that Ella Mae Morse's version was the definitive one (I don't think they'd heard Chuck Miller's. Ella
Mae's Blacksmith Blues could probably never be improved upon, for my ears, but I don't think her version of House Of Blue Lights can touch Chuck Miller's.

And really, fellas.. and ladies! all that "definitive" means in my original question is which version is definitive for YOU. There are no absolutes when it comes to music. Just personal preferences...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:31 PM

"Hound Dog" by Elvis, or Big Mama Thornton?

I know who it makes more sense coming from.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:01 AM

Which would be the "original" original, since he "originated" both songs?

Well, if an artist re-records their own song, that does complicate things. I was just trying to distinguish between what I called the "original" version, meaning that by the song's writer (but not necessarily - see below), and a "definitive" version, which might be by somebody else. I can't for the moment think of a proper real-life example, but perhaps Irving Berlin recorded "White Christmas" before Bing Crosby (I don't know whether he did or not, but let's assume he did for the purpose of this discussion) - then Berlin's version is the original, but in the eyes of many, Bing Crosby's is the definitive version, i.e. the one that people first think of when they hear the song title.

Now let's say Crosby recorded the song twice. One of those would be the definitive version (assuming you think it is anyway!) and the other would not be, because it's just another recording by the same artist (e.g. a live recording from a TV show or similar).

Sometimes a song is recorded by another artist before the writer records it him/herself. In that case it's possible for the "original" version to be by someone other than the writer, because it was recorded by the other artist first. Again I can't think of a real example for the present, but I'm sure there must be some. Well, maybe I can - I remember Ellie Greenwich wrote many hits in the 1960s with Jeff Barry, Phil Spector, etc., and many people would say that the original hit versions (by the likes of the Ronettes, the Crystals, Shangri-Las, Ike & Tina Turner, and many more) were both the 'definitive' and 'original' versions. Ellie recorded many of these herself on a 1970s (IIRC) album. Her own versions would probably not be called either the 'original' or 'definitive' versions by many people (but 'definitive' is definitely subjective; 'original' isn't if you accept my definition - I said 'if'!)

I have never heard it, but some friends told me that in the sixties, the Fuggs used to sing "Hey, Hey We're The Fuggs" and it was definitely better than the Monkies' version

Ah, that makes it a different song! ;-)

OK then, here's a festive one: "Wombling Merry Christmas" - definitive version is that by The Wombles, IMO :-)

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:24 PM

Tony Rose, on Boots of spanish leather,nic jones, canadeeio,[thats something else] as is, the jukebox as she turned[ nic jones].MARTIN CARTHY thornymore woods.lou killen, all things are quite silent.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:46 PM

McPeakes - Wild Mountain Thyme
Copper Family - their whole repertoire.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:00 PM

which copper family, the present ones or Bob And Ron

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:25 PM

Bob and Ron.