Lyr origin: Old Jimmy Sutton

Subject: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Richie
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 11:14 PM

Hi,

I am looking for the lyrics to versions of Old Jimmy Sutton:
Grayson and Whitter's; Carolina Tar Heels'(Jimmy Settleton); Doc Watson's; Wade Ward's.

Here's some info from Ceolas and Folk Index:

JIMMY SUTTON. AKA – "Old Jimmy Sutton." Old-Time, Breakdown. A Mixolydian. AEAE. AB. In the repertoire of Ozark fiddler Vester Jones, but the song also has currency with Blue Ridge regional musicians such as Fred Cockerham. As "Old Jimmy Sutton" the song/tune was in the repertoire of Grayson & Whitter who recorded it in the early 20th century (played in the key of G). These verses have been collected (sometimes a bleat or 'Baaa' is voiced at the end of the line):
***
Get out a rock as big as a button
Kill Jimmy Sutton as dead as mutton.
***
I like Sal and she likes chicken.
I'll keep Sal, all the time pickin'.
***
Sheep met a billy-goat going to pasture.
Sheep said "Goat, can't you go a little faster?"
***
Sheep fell down and skinned his chin
And, great God almighty, how the billy-goat grinned.
***
I like Sal and she likes mutton
And I hate to lose to old Jimmy Sutton.
***
If you can't dance that, you can't dance nothin'
And I wouldn't give a chaw to the old Jimmie Sutton (sometimes used as a chorus)
***
Bill took the gun, Bill went a huntin'
BAM! went the gun and down fell a mutton.
***
Some of the verses are floating. Stacy Phillips points out that the lines
***
Sheep met a billy-goat going to pasture.
Sheep said "Goat, can't you go a little faster?
***
were sung by Tommy Duncan on Texas fiddler Bob Wills' version of "Sally Goodin," and
were followed by
***
Sheep fell down, goat rolled over,
Goat got up with a mouth full of clover.
***
Source for notated version: Judy Hyman (Ithica, N.Y.) [Phillips]. Phillips (Traditional American Fiddle Tunes), 1994; pg. 125. Folkways FS-3811, Vester Jones. Vester Ward – "Traditional Music From Grayson & Carrol Counties."

FOLK INDEX:
Old Jimmy Sutton [Me IV-D27]
Rt - Sheep and Cows Walking Through thePasture
At - Old Buck Ram
1. Ballard Branch Bogtrotters. Round the Heart of Old Galax, Vol 2., County 534, LP (1980), trk# B.05 [1937] (Jimmy Sutton)
2. Ball, E. C. (Estil C.). 39th National Folk Festival, NCTA NCTA 77, LP (1977), trk# A.05
3. Blue Ridge Buddies. Close to Home, Smithsonian/Folkways SF 40097, CD (1997), trk# 23 [1957/08] (Jimmy Sutton)
4. Bogtrotters (Bog Trotters). Original Bogtrotters, Biograph RC 6003, LP (1968), trk# 5 [1937-42]
5. Burke, John. Burke, John / Book of Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo, Amsco, sof (1968), p20
6. Carlin, Bob. Brody, David (ed.) / Banjo Picker's Fakebook, Oak, Fol (1985), p111b
7. Carlton, Gaither. Watson Family Tradition, Rounder 0129, LP (1977), trk# B.12 (Jimmy Sutton)
8. Carolina Tar Heels. Carolina Tar Heels, Folk Legacy FSA-024, LP (1965), trk# 14 [1962/08/11] (Jimmy Settleton)
9. Crooked Road. Generations, Spencer, CD (2004), trk# 1 (Jimmy Sutton)
10. Feldmann, Peter. How to Play Clawhammer Banjo, Sonyatone STI-104, LP (1975), trk# 8
11. Grayson and Whitter. Going Down Lee Highway, Davis Unlimited DU 33033, LP (1977), trk# 14 [1928/02/29]
12. Highwoods String Band. Dance All Night, Rounder 0045, LP (1975), trk# 8
13. Highwoods String Band. Brody, David (ed.) / Fiddler's Fakebook, Oak, Sof (1983), p206
14. Jones, Vester. Traditional Music From Grayson and Carroll Counties, Folkways FS 3811, LP (1962), trk# 6 [1960ca]
15. Moore, Spence (Spencer). Sounds of the South, Atlantic 7-82496-2, CD( (1993), trk# 4.23 [1959/07ca] (Jimmy Sutton)
16. Muller, Eric. Muller, Eric & Barbara Koehler / Frailing the 5-String Banjo, Mel Bay, Sof (1973), p43b
17. Paley, Tom. Hard Luck Papa. Old Time Picking Styles & Techniques, Kicking Mule KM 201, LP (1976), trk# 4 (Jimmy Sutton)
18. Reedy, Wade. High Atmosphere, Rounder 0028, LP (1974/field), trk# 19 [1965/11]
19. Robic, A; and the Exertions. Old Time Music Dance Party, Flying Fish FF-415, LP (1987), trk# 2a (Jimmy Sutton)
20. Siggins, Bob. Old-Time Banjo Project, Elektra EKL-7276, LP (1964), trk# 4
21. Smith, Glenn (Virginia). Traditional Music From Grayson and Carroll Counties, Folkways FS 3811, LP (1962), trk# 26 [1960ca]
22. Stoneman, George. Clawhammer Banjo, Vol. 3, County 757, LP (1978), trk# 14 (Jimmy Sutton)
23. Trivette, Mr.. 1941 Old Fiddlers Convention, Galax, Virginia, Voyage Beyond, CD (200?), trk# 8 [1941]
24. Ward, Wade. Roscoe Holcomb and Wade Ward, Folkways FA 2363, LP (1962), trk# B.06 [1961/07]
25. Ward, Wade. Uncle Wade. A Memorial to Wade Ward, Old Time Virginia Banjo ..., Folkways FA 2380, LP (1973), trk# 3
26. Watson, Doc; and Family. Treasures Untold, Vanguard CV 77001, Cas (1991), trk# 10 (Jimmy Sutton)
27. Weems, Ace; and his Fat Meat Boys. It's All Gone Now, Carryon 002, LP (199?), trk# A.05b (Jimmy Sutton)

Sheep and Cows Walking Through thePasture
Rt - Old Jimmy Sutton
28. Hart and Blech. Build Me a Boat, Voyager VRCD 354, CD (2001), trk# 18

Does anyone have lyrics to: Sheep and Cows Walking Through the Pasture or Old Buck Ram?

Thanks, Richie

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 11:17 PM

"Sheep and Cows Walking Through The Pasture [key of D: banjo - aDADE] We learned this from a 1983 recording made by Andy Cahan of Roscoe Parish (1897-1904) of Coal Creek, VA, near Galax. Its phrasing and chord changes might drive you mad, but we love tunes like this. The title might lead one to think that it is related to a similarly-titled tune found on Buddy Thomas' Kitty Puss CD, Rounder 0032, but it is not. The other thoughts that would immediately come to mind include the lyrics to "Old Jimmie Sutton" (which we also play in a much more conventional manner), and in fact those lyrics scan very well if you've got the brainwaves to easily follow the contours of crooked tunes. In fact, they scan so well we now believe that this is a slightly fractured variant of "Old Jimmie Sutton." Lyrics to OJS are fairly commonplace, but particularly nice ones can be found in Thomas Talley's Negro Folk Rhymes."

from here.


I will go seek lyrics now.

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 11:24 PM

"The Old Buck Ram" was done by Doc Watson as a BTW.

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Richie
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:25 PM

Thanks Peace,

Vester Jones calls Old Jimmie Sutton an old song from "the time of covered wagons."

I wonder how old it is?

Richie

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:33 PM

Old Jimmy Sutton From Brad Leftwich. Round Peak Clawhammer Banjo. Key of A. Words from Tommy Jarrell, sung on the low part

Sheep, sheep, sheep and mutton
If you can't dance that you can't dance nothing
And a baa!
Baa! Old Jimmy Sutton

We'll kill us a sheep and eat the mutton
And save the tail for old Jimmy Sutton
And a baa!
Baa!. Old Jimmy Sutton


The above is from the DT I think.

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:51 PM

Google of

Old Jimmy Sutton

"FW03811

Traditional Music from Grayson and Carroll Counties, Virginia: Songs, Tunes with Fiddle, Banjo and Band   

Various Artists

Country of Origin: United States

Record Label: Folkways Records

Source Archive: Smithsonian Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage

Keywords:

Credits: Recorded by Eric H. Davidson , Produced by Eric H. Davidson , Produced by Paul Newman , Recorded by Paul Newman"



An album cover here, but I don't know how to enlarge it. Info there?

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:44 PM

It's also on the High Woods Stringband Feed Your Babies Onions CD. I forget all the verses they have on it, though.

Cow and sheep walking through a pasture,
Cow says, "Sheep, can't you walk a little faster?"
Baaaa!

Sheep says, "Cow, I got a sore toe,"
Cow says, "Sheep, I did not know."
Baaaa!

Me and [?] went a-hunting,
Bang! went the gun and down went the mutton,
Baaaa!

I can't stand meal, I can't stand mutton,
I don't give a damn for Old Jimmy Sutton,
If you can't sing that, you can't sing nothin'
Baaaaa!
[last sung verse has an extra line]

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:45 PM

HOT DANG!

Try also "Old Jimmie Sutton".

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:49 PM

AW. You knew that. Sorry. These days, it's little things that get me excited.

Subject: RE: Lry origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 12:03 AM

Oops, sorry--that GUEST was me. Forgot to put in my name.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Richie
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:11 AM

The earliest date I can find is a Journal of American Folk-lore reference in 1888.

Anyone have any other old references?

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:30 AM

Here's the Talley version that someone mentioned upthread:

SHEEP AND GOAT
[Thomas W. Talley, "Negro Folk Rhymes", 1922]

Sheep an' goat gwine to de paster;
Say de goat to de sheep: "Cain't you walk a liddle faster?"

De sheep says: "I cain't, I'se a liddle too full."
Den de goat say: "You can wid my ho'ns in yo wool."

But de goat fall down an' skin 'is shin
An' de sheep spli 'is lip wid a big broad grin.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: Old Jimmy Sutton
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:57 AM

My opinion-for what it's worth- is that Talley's "Sheep and Goat" is a not so vieled put-down on someone tryin to tell you what to do.
In the end, a busy body think he or she can tell somebody else what to do thinks he or she is better than anybody else kind of person
-like the goat- gets his or her "come-uppance".

The "Sheep & Goat" story/song is in the tradition of African folktales {think Aesop's fables} which have a morale to the story or the song since songs were part of many traditional African stories.

The morale of the "Sheep & Goat" story/story is "Don't give unwanted advice" or "Mind your own bizness", or some other such truism.