Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?

Subject: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:26 AM

Charging cars travelling per mile in the UK? Doesn't it cost enough already - purchase car, MOT, insurance, fuel, parts & stuff? Surely we pay plenty of Tax in there already?

I got a new (ish) car in February this year specifically for pulling the caravan to Folk Festivals in the UK. Despite having it back in the garage for long periods due to a major auto gearbox problem I have managed to do 10,000 miles already this year.

Looking at the amount of festivals we've been to in that time (virtually every weekend) I can safely say that at least 6,000 miles of that was Folk-related. There is no way I can do that if this 'charge per mile' is enforced & I guess most UK Folkies will be in the same boat.

So, does this herald the end of UK Folk Festivals?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:47 AM

It will mean that festivals will have to rely on more local attendees, and the festivals like Sidmouth which are in lovely areas, but rely on people travelling long distances to enjoy them, will be the first to go. Anywhere in fact that is not well served by public transport is in peril when this comes to pass.
If the government put all the money it milks from motorists into improving public transport, we would be able to dial a bus like we do a minicab.
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:49 AM

There are lots of things I'd like to do "virtually every weekend" but can't afford to. So you may have to learn to live within your resources.

To me, charging by the mile is the most sensible suggestion there has been for years - at least it would tend to stop people making unnecessary journeys which simply clog up the roads. And as congestion is rapidly increasing, it tends to suggest that it doesn't "cost enough already".

I think maybe that suggesting this would be the end of festivals is something of an overreaction - one could make the same argument for every activity. Over the very long term, if motoring was made too pricey for the majority of people, then leisure motoring would decrease, tending to make people concentrate more within their local community, rather than travelling around to reach entertainment, which surely wouldn't be a bad thing?

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:57 AM

The daft thing is, it aint all that difficult.

Those of you who remember the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire will remember our policy of subsidising local transport - buses were the one that people picked up on but in fact trains were always part of it too.

My local route which was very busy - had a double decker bus every six minutes throughout the day and more at rush hour. It was pence to go into town. It was not worth using a car. so people didn't.

The buses had conductors, they were new, it was pleasant to travel. If a bus was full people didn't mind waiting for the next one.

Now we have a conductorless bus (less people employed) which holds up traffic whilst the driver takes fares, it comes at fifteen minute intervals and it costs an arm and a leg for a ten minute journey. Fares are about to go up again to about £1.50.

Mind you I travel free nowadays s0 mustn't grumble too much!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:58 AM

All the talk I have seen suggests that other motoring taxes will drop slightly, so the 'typical' person will only pay a slight increase overall. Of course knowing this penny pinching, micromanging chancellor of ours, the typical case will be about as rare as 6 banjo players perfectly in tune with each other, and everyone else will pay an arm and a leg. Through the nose....

And to keep this out of the BS section.

I took the gold pin from the scarf on my bosom,
and said 'Take ye this in rememeberence of me'
But Gordon he stood and he said with a smile
The road and the miles do not come for free.

(Someone do better, please!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:19 AM

Have to agree with Terry there. As I understand it, the highest charges will be for the busiest roads at the busiest times. Somehow I don't imagine people will be towing their caravans around the M25 at 8.30 on a weekday morning, so I can't see it having much of an impact.
For me the travel costs are the least of the costs of going to festivals - the tickets, the beer, the food and the CDs all add up to a heck of a lot more. I honestly don't know how so many people can afford to go to the number of festivals they do!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:25 AM

I nearly joined Friends of the Earth some years back.
But the meetings were 10 miles away, and I didn't feel it right to drive to them.
That doesn't stop me driving to dance clubs.
I suspect we all have similar double standards.

I can remember family holidays by train with suitcases, met by little boys with gocarts plying for hire.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:27 AM

What's new? Ihave always paid per mile,travelling by train. I'd quite like motorists to pay the real cost of their journeys.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:48 AM

Charge by the mile?

I must not have been paying attention, because I hadn't heard of this, so I had to look it up.

The Observer says the proposal is: Drivers to pay £1.30 per mile.

A fairly recent "conversion" to US equivalents put petrol at about £3 US per gallon. This is probably off a bit, but the exact amount is irrelevant.

One can get a minimotor conveyance that gets perhaps 60 mpg. (miles per US gallon)
Petrol cost = £0.05 per mile

I can also get a monster SUV that gets a bare 10 mpg.
Petrol cost = £0.30 per mile.

Penalty for driving the SUV – per mile expense 6 times as much per mile.

Add a £1.30 per mile tax?

Minimotor = £1.35 per mile
SUV = $1.60 per mile

Penalty for driving the SUV – per mile expense 1.19 times as much instead of 6 times as much.

If an "offset" to the per mile tax is made by reducing petrol taxes, the "penalty" for driving a HumVee becomes proportionately even less.

As the obvious intent is to impose a much larger proportional increment on small, fuel-efficient vehicles, than on large inefficient ones, this is quite obviously intended to get all you annoying "little people" off the main roads so the "fat cats" who already drive around in stretch limos will have it all to themselves.

My numbers are of course pretty sloppy and perhaps a bit extreme; but in the US there is a noticeable tendency for people who commute on toll roads (per mile "fee" added) to use notably larger and heavier (less efficient) vehicles than people who commute similar distances where there are fewer tolls.

An obvious solution to a flat per mile fee is to take a few passengers and share the cost. The £1.30 per mile fee added to a per mile operating cost of £0.05 means it costs 27 times as much to drive your mini as before, so just stuff 26 passengers in and you break even. Passenger weight may increase fuel consumption, so make it 28 passengers(?).

The guy with the 10 mpg tank only has to add 4 passengers to break even (in the absence of any fuel tax reduction.)

In some parts of the US they've created MOV lanes, (Multi-Occupant Vehicles) that may only be used by vehicles carrying more than one person. This provides an additional argument for lots of people to get a slightly larger vehicle than otherwise needed, so that they can car-pool. They may attempt to organize a "pool," but a fair percentage of the pools end up with the members finding that someone "smells bad" in close quarters, so many with now larger cars still end up driving alone – but they had a good "reason" for their lunker when they got it.

All in favor of getting rid of all those pesky little cars say £££££££££££ah ££££££ah HA HA HA.

It might be a justification for working up crews to travel together to festivals in fewer vehicles, which folkers may be able to manage in the UK? In my area the folk density is so low that everybody I know comes from different directions, so it's really hard for us to arrange group trips.

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:49 AM

And you will of course be able to hitch your caravan to the back of the subsidised bus, which on arrival at the campsite will back it into your space before going on it's merry way. Hopefully this will be after you have downloaded your instruments from the thoughtfully provided luggage space.
What a load of crap these go by bus and train brigade people spout, have they looked at the price of a train ticket these days, or is it my fault for living in the country, and having arthritis and playing an instrument larger than a fucking penny whistle.
The taxes paid by the poor motorist help to subsidise your bloody Utopian world mate!
Giok.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:09 AM

That's a good move by any government. It is discussed over here as well. And BTW you are already charged per mile by the taxes on the petrol. The only question is whether all is charged per mile or only the largest part as it is now.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:15 AM

And after we get there on the bus/train, where are we going to sleep? Food? Camping gear? Jeeze....

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:33 AM

I get free use of public transport in the Greater London area , but am also a Multi Instrunmentalist - The last time I tried to use Public Transport AND carry two instrument cases ,my 'last Bus' was cancelled at zero notice , leaving me with a nearly five mile walk or get a Taxi - At Midnight !!
If we ARE going to use Buses and Trains instead of our cars , then let us PLEASE have a Public Transport system that is fit for use !

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:38 AM

The train fare from where I live to London is £131.50 single. That will buy me 33 gallons of diesel which will transport me about 2013 miles. i.e. There and back again with plenty left in my tank. I can carry another 3 people and their luggage too if I want to.
THAT'S one of the main things that's wrong with public transport, apart from the inconvenience of not delivering you from door to door, or being any good if you need to transport anything bigger than a briefcase, it is far too dear.
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:47 AM

This proposal (the Observer clipping was dated June) seems to rely on ALL cars having government monitored GPS locators on them. This will take some time to impliment.

The figure mentioned is almost certainly an "offer price" so when it comes down to an extra 10p per mile we will think we got a good deal...

Large cars cost about 50p per mile to run already, most of which is NOT fuel tax.

Lots of variables, and the bulk of the proposal is not to reduce carbon emissions but to reduce congestion, so those of us going uncongestedly at funny times will probably not pay the most.

The sky is probably not falling (yet( - but never trust a politician, and remember the government pays for his travel!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM

Despite being young and fit, a festival requires as much stuff as I'd want to carry any real distance. If you're intending to cook for youselves, and the shops are any distance away, it get worse, and that's without a a large instrument to lug about as well.

Of course, this is just a small sub-set of the problems created by the utterly shite state of our entire transport network, which seems to be beyond anyone to fix.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:55 AM

Help a poor colonial here. This legislation isn't about creating toll roads, but rather is going to charge you for every mile you drive on your own car??????? If that is the case, it seems to be a ludicrous intrusion on ones life. There are better options available to create incentives for use of public transport that won't penalize folks that live in rural areas or folks that rely on having to use a truck or trailer.

Enlighten me, please. Speak slowly, I'm a Yank.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:02 AM

Nothing to elighten, Big Mick - you are exactly right. There are talking of charging per mile and on the major highways at peak times a figure of roughly $2 per mile has been bandied about. Apparently this will be good for the economy. Myself, I can't see how large numbers of people being unable to afford to get to work achieves that. There is no suitable public transport route to where my wife and I work and out jobs are roughly 50 miles apart ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:09 AM

Mick, intrusion into ones private life is exactly what this control mad government is all about. Used to be when you consented to have your fingerprints or a DNA sample taken to eliminate you from a police enquiry, that when the case was solved thes items were destroyed. Not anymore, they're kept and form part of the National Database, whatever that is!
ID cards is something else there are trying to make us all have, and not only that but we each have to pay for it to be issued at a cost quoted as up to an hundred pounds each by some people.
Make no mistake about it my friend we are well on the way to becoming a police state!
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:18 AM

I wonder how long it would take to fix the transport sysytem if all ministers, MPs, and Civil servants were obliged to use public transport to get to work?

Unfortunatly, I can't quite square this with my other idea, the 'Get the Goverment busybodies out of our lives party'...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Flash Company
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:59 AM

First things first, Sheila and I don't drive, have never driven, and don't intend to start.
Having said that, I still think that road charging is about the craziest idea you could come up with. (Well, maybe the craziest transport idea, I can think of a few in other fields that are crazier)
If you are going to make people give up their cars and use public transport you first need to have a reliable public transport system. It is a number of years since I described it to my then boss as 'Pubic Transport' (Every day another cock-up!), but it aint changed. When I read that one of the latest schemes to resolve the problem of overcrowding on commuter trains is to take out half the seats and mke more people stand, I despair.
and if you think I'm getting going a bit about this, you should hear S.

FC

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:48 AM

The original "Fare's fair" policy of Ken Livingstone (subsidising public transport and improving it so everyone would use it then there would be fewer cars on the road so the but part of public transport could get through speedily and safely) was one of his better ideas - but the Thatcherite legislation he had to work under enabled a successful court challenge to the obviously sensible policy.

Ho Hum.

I suggest really high fuel taxes, with a part of them being deductible from income taxes (or eligible for benefit if you are on benefits) if you can demonstrate that you need transport to work or obtain necessaries of subsistence.   

Businesses set them off against tax anyway - and non-business car benefits from employers are taxable for the employees, so the circle is squared. I think.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:51 AM

Train fares in my area are about to be increased by over 6%. The recent suggested increase in the price of a litre of fuel is, I believe, a little over 1%.

These lop-sided increases in favour of the motorist have been going on for years, which is why a few decades ago it would have sounded strange if someone had said that they were going by car because it was cheaper whereas nowadays many people are effectively priced off the trains.

Without trying to sound self-righteous, the issue is a little wider than just saying "I demand to use my car because it's convenient and I'm going to get upset if I have to pay more for doing so", which seems to be where many people stand on this issue.

I'm a car user of average means, and I use my car for many of the folk clubs, gigs and festivals that I attend/play at. If it's going to cost me more, and the result will be less traffic, a better environment and (ideally, though I'm not holding my breath on this one!) more investment in public transport, then so be it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:03 AM

Without trying to sound self-righteous, the issue is a little wider than just saying "I demand to use my car because it's convenient and I'm going to get upset if I have to pay more for doing so", which seems to be where many people stand on this issue.

That may be some people's point, but not mine. There is no suitable public transport to where I work. If I moved, it would simply mean my wife had to travel the same distance instead. The proposed costs would be in excess of £2000 per month, even if petrol was entirely free and there was no road licence. (I don't pay £2000 a month in tax either, Richard!) So there are only two economically viable solutions I can see. Either my wife or I leave work, which doesn't do us or the economy any good, {though of course in time we might find a new position), or, more likely, we buy a second property, because we could buy a quite reasonable property paying maybe £1000 per month. And that's great for the housing shortage, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:56 AM

>I>The proposed costs would be in excess of £2000 per month, even if petrol was entirely free and there was no road licence.

You must be doing an awful lot of driving on extremely congested roads (even if the maximum quoted rate of £1.30 a mile for such roads is correct) to get to £2000 per month, DMcG.

I'd like to see some kind of direct link to public transport built in, so that there was a system of exemptions built in for people living in places where there was inadequate public transport, as well as a very big extension of services and reduction of fares.
......................................

I don't think I've ever been to a festival where I couldn't carry everything I need without too much difficulty. Most times I go by bus, which is a lot cheaper than train.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 12:08 PM

Yes, I'm afraid I do! Roughly 50 miles each way per day, almost all on motorways at peak time. I would far rather not, but that's what's needed to get to work.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM

Last train back home for me from the fleshpots of Inverness, my nearest large town [60 miles away] leaves there at 17:57. Not much scope there for an evening out is there?
Giok

Timetable

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 02:22 PM

When my parents lived twenty miles away from me , IF I wanted to visit for an evening , the EARLIEST I could get there (By Green Line bus) was ten minutes AFTER the last bus back left !!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: SussexCarole
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:53 PM

We worked out that to get to Towersey festival from here - a matter of about 160 miles - we would need to catch a local bus - 2 different trains - then another bus and then a walk of at least 1/2 mile carrying all our camping equipment etc for the weekend. The combined return cost by public transport would be approx £150. Even allowing for the toll across the Severn bridge our car journey wouldn't cost more than £40.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 06:49 PM

Now you understand the wisdom of the American decision to pull out of the Kyoto protocol.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:39 PM

This proposal include tourists?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:03 PM

Sussex Carole so right.Years ago I was paid public transport rate for travel and it was the same cost as petrol so used the car. Not so today. Yesterday all trains at Waterloo had all been washed though !!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:46 PM

UK Charge per mile - AW! don't worry there aren't THAT many miles IN the UK. *HEE HEE*

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 04:35 AM

"Now you understand the wisdom of the American decision to pull out of the Kyoto protocol."

All you do by that remark Guest, is demonstrate your total ignorance of the causes of global warming, in the same way as the idiots who would not sign the Kyoto Protocol on America's behalf.

Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,taxijohn
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:21 AM

If government wants people to use public transport, then they have to put in place a coordinated system that is proved to work. This would have to include thro' ticketing from pickup to drop off.
I drive a cab in rural lincolnshire, this would mean that i would have onboard computerised route planning & ticketing, ie:- you get in my cab in market rasen to go to sidmouth, i put in the destination & the computer would issue a ticket with entire route on including all changes & one price for the lot, i would then transport you to the next change point to meet the connection. The overall organisation would then charge your credit card for the entire journey, & pay me for my part!! It could be done but is any government going to take it on, i think not?
It would have to have built in garauntees such as getting you from any one point in uk mainland to any other point in mainland in under 24hrs, & move an entire familly for no more than the cost of the same journey in a 1400cc car.
The major cause of conjestion in uk are:-
1 people travelling far too far to work.
2 using cars for school runs of under 2 miles
3 duplication of buisness mileage
4 vehicles getting larger every year, therefore taking up more physical space on the road.

Any thoughts? ( the term bucket & worms comes to mind!! )

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: bill\sables
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:26 AM

I must agree with Giok, I run a ceilidh band and we play at least once every weekend somewhere in Yorkshire or Lincolnshire. I carry a pair of speakers, mixer amp, speaker and mic stands, monitor amp and speakers, case of cables, lighting equipment and occasionaly an extra pair of speakers for large venues. Add to this a few instruments. Some of our venues are village or church halls or hotels, others are stately homes with mile long drives and still others are farm marquees in the middle of fields.
If the government can get me a bus who will pick me up at home with all of the gear then drive over and pick up Sam Pirt, our accordeon player, then drive to Northampton to collect our fiddler and then deliver us to our venue in time to do sound checks and play for the evening and last of all pick us all up after midnight and take us all back home again. I will gladly give up my car.
It seems to me that this government thinks we all work in an office, shop, or school and don't have to carry large ammounts of luggage, even car tax is cheeper for small cars with the capacity to carry a brief case or pile of books, but what about the self employed people who carry the tools of their trade like carpenters, plumbers, electricians and musicians, are we expected to pass this extra tax on to our customers. In the case of our band it would increase the cost of a ceilidh by at least £300.
And of course when this tax is introduced I will predict that within a year the bastards will change our miles into kilometers and so be able to double the tax.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:39 AM

It's clear to me that the real reason for introducing a mileage tax, as opposed to a simple increase in fuel tax, has nothing to do with helping the environment, and has everything to do with government intrusion into people's personal lives - something this government seems obsessed with.

If the aim is to encourage people to make fewer journeys, a straightforward increase in fuel taxes would have that effect, and would cost absolutely nothing to implement - unlike the costly process of installing computers in every single vehicle, with satellites and systems to monitor every individual's vehicle useage.

Once this system, is in place, the government will not only be able to charge you by the mile, but they will know exactly where you are whenever you go out in your car. They will be able to detect if you are speeding, by measuring the time taken to complete any stage of a journey (between any two points) and calculating the average speed, even taking account of stops at motorway service stations and the like.

George Orwell didn't know the half of it!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:58 AM

Increase in fuel tax as such fails to take account of WHEN one is driving or WHERE one is driving. My proposal with partially deductible fuel tax (which some seem not to have read with sufficient attention) cannot deal with these variables, but is otherwise appropriately progressive and hugely less invasive.

If my mmory serves me the data protection moguls have queried government collecting all that data too..., but politically "the right to speed" does not go over well!

Of course, if speed limits were sensible, eg 90 on motorways and not less than 50 on rural B roads (I live near an A road with no villages on it where the speed limit is 40(!) which is why everyone breaks it. If it was 50 a few might observe it) I might even approve of average speed cameras.

How about a black market in duplicate bugs you can leave at home while you go out with the spy in your car turned off??

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:17 AM

"all ministers, MPs, and Civil servants were obliged to use public transport to get to work?"

I'm a Civil Servant (OK, stop laughing now...) but I cannot drive to work, even though it would be cheaper and quicker for me. I cannot drive because there is nowhere to park at the other end. Many Government buildings are in the centre of towns and cities, where parking is at a premium. Despite the traditional image, CS's don't get everything laid on for them from the cradle to the grave. We have no parking spaces unless we can give strong business need for driving to work (disability, use of car for work etc), we have to fight for our jobs just like anyone else, and it's getting harder and harder to move upwards or relocate (unless you want to move to some godforsaken place where the ground rent is dirt cheap).

Travelling on public transport is fraught with other problems. It's overcrowded, it's dirty, it's subject to frequent delays and it's a great big target for terrorists - remember July 7th?! If one car breaks down, only a few people are inconvenienced. If it crashes, only a few people are injured. If one train breaks down, as many as 300 people are delayed. If it crashes (or is bombed), 300 people are affected. Is it any wonder people would rather drive?

I'm not an advocate of the 'drive everywhere and screw the ozone' theory, but if they are going to insist on these measures, then they MUST put in place a public transport system to all areas before they implement it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM

Big Brother, so true! Possible alibi's from criminals having their car with the black box taken elsewhere?

Business opportunities:
Caravan hire at airports, railway & bus stations
More car hire at railway & bus stations
Expansion of insurance companies to cover all this hire
Hire of tents/sleeping bags from Festival organisers
Additional marquees for Festival dormitories
Compulsory caravan driving testing/licensing prior to hiring

Interesting comments from all for & against - lots more to come I imagine....

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM

Liz

Problem is that those who dream up these ideas are probably toward the top of the tree and do have the transport laid on. Remember the famous journey of old Two Jags? Got on the train with a load of press fanfare, got off at the next station down and swanned off in his chauffeur driven car.

Who was the minister who used the coach/taxi lane on the M4 a few years back?

You can bet your life that those are the people who will, for the best possible reasons of course, be exempt from this new tax.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: breezy
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:14 AM

It wont happen, if it does noone will go anywhere because it will be financially impossible

Everything would cost much more

Businesses would go under

Kids wont go to school

Teachers wont be able to afford to go to work

I cant ever see it coming to pass

If so

Life will slow to a standstill and there will be economic ruin

and the day of the horse will return

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:53 AM

Oh no! Just think of all that Budweiser!
G.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:55 AM

They are prepared ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM

"It wont happen, if it does noone will go anywhere because it will be financially impossible"

Well, I don't have a car and I get to work Ok, I have also been to well over a dozen festivals this year, which is as many as I can afford beer for! You can keep transport costs down by going to fairly local festivals (luckily I live in Yorkshire with a great choice of festivals), or by buying your train tickets in advance and getting cheap deals, or by going to Irish festivals (£22 to fly to Shannon and a couple of quid for the bus to Ennis, or £55 the whole way on the bus if you want to be greener).
It does influence the sort of festivals I go to - camping is pretty much out of the question now as due to advancing years it is too much of a struggle with all my backpacking gear plus fiddle and concertina. So greenfield sites are out, but I prefer a town based festival anyway as I like a choice of comfortable pub sessions instead of a draughty tent. What you spend on B+B, you save on not running a car, which is not just the petrol costs but depreciation, repairs, etc. Driving and camping will always be cheaper for large families or groups, but for single and couples there should not be much difference.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Grab
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 05:30 PM

I still think fuel duty is the best way of doing it. That follows the "polluter pays" principle, which is what you want. Compare 100 miles in a two-axle SUV and 100 miles in a Toyota Prius: the truck will be using around five times the fuel, and hence five times the pollution.

This isn't really the "end" of anything. The major problem they're talking about is people overusing certain key points in the road network - we're not talking that price per mile for an entire trip. Get people to travel some other way, or charge for travelling the direct way, and it'll share the load out. Remember that the M6 toll road has worked very well.

The major problem is getting into the US long-commute mindset. When Cambridge is being touted as within commuting distance of London, you know things are going a bit too far.

I'm not convinced about how it'll work technically though. A GPS box on every car - that's too open to abuse.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: stallion
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 05:56 PM

mmmm so, we are going to tax cars per mile to show an example to the world hu, like Canute turning the waves back, now if China and the US did it, well, that would be something, probably the rest of us could do nowt. This is way off the music thread only that it's major tinkering with social structures, yummy, a revolution in the offing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:47 PM

The British Media have had their 'good times' with New Labour and are now putting out anything they can find that MAY be detrimental to them
They did exactly the same in the run up to the 1997 election , only then it was the Conservatives who were getting the flak ! Unfortunately MOST people dont keep track of what they are up to , so the anti Government scare has the effect looked for by the Media Moguls , and keeps people buying their Newspapers !



Discuss !!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:14 PM

Sorry EU suckers -

Brits do not let go of the POUND, it is your final defence, just in case RollsRoyce, Loyds, or the StarLine should become unstable..

Kyoto......Kyoto......Kyoto......Kyoto......

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:20 PM

I don't think that it was too long ago that the British Government were promising that North Sea Oil would put an end to tax problems in the UK.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 03:40 AM

Well Bert, a certain Labour government had the oil income for many years ahead, spent before a barrel was pumped. When you borrow that sort of money, you've got to pay a heck of a lot of interest!
I agree with the idea that fuel duty is the way to go, but that must have some sort of built in allowances to cover those who have little or no access to public transport.
The EEC has jus banned the use of 'Rebated' diesel [Red diesel] in boats, apart from fishing boats, thus throwing a lot of live aboard boat owners into a parlous financial position, this will save very little.
Meanwhile Gordon Brown has doubled the air passenger duty from £5 to £10, this is another drop in the ocean, and it still means that aviation fuel is untaxed!!
Aeroplanes [Gargoyle!!] are one of the largest contributors to greenhouse gasses!
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:39 AM

OK DMcG, you are doing about 2000 miles per month commuting. Now I said put extra on fuel duty. If you drive a sensible-ish vehicle you are probably getting nearly 40 mpg (I'm a low mileage driver, a bit of a maniac, but can get about 37 to the gallon out of a dirty great Volvo 740 GLT estate if I just tickle along at the motorway limit). So that's 50 gallons per month. Call it about 225 litres per month. To sting you for £2,600 per month (the equivalent of 2,000 x£1.30 per mile road pricing) they'd have to put fuel duty up by another £11.55 per litre, putting the price of petrol up to £12.50 per litre.

Is that politically viable?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM

The other issue of course is that it will mean the end of the life on the road and the travelling musician. I do about 25,000 miles a year for gigs. Out of my fee I take all my expenses and then pay income tax. A new road tax will make a lot of my work unprofitable. Luckily I'm coming to the end of my working life as a musician, but for the young ones coming up and hoping for a career it's a death blow.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:15 AM

...they'd have to put fuel duty up by another £11.55 per litre, putting the price of petrol up to £12.50 per litre.

Is that politically viable?

Ah, there's the true reason why a simple fuel tax would not suit the government's purpose.

A combination of fuel tax increase and road tolls (e.g. on the M25 during peak periods) would achieve the government's stated aims, i.e. reduce road use and relieve traffic congestion, but not their unstated ones (being able to monitor every driver's movements, speed, etc.)

If the proposed mileage tax is made law, how long before we are all personally fitted with monitoring devices implanted under the skin, so every citizen's movements will be trackable at all times?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:28 AM

No, Richard, I agree setting fuel tax anywhere near that level would be political suicide.

Just to make things clear for everyone, I'm not actually averse to road pricing as such [though I'm by no means happy about the government monitoring where everyone is].   However, I suggest the "right" charge I should incur is a smallish multiple of what the cost of equivalent public transport over those distances at that time would be, if it existed - maybe double?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM

Turnpike fees, a couple of centuries back, nearly caused a revolution...

And rightly so in my opinion. When we are charged simply to exercise rights of highway and so travel we become prisoners.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Essex Girl
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:45 AM

Public transport within central London is excellent. Anyone who insists on using a car without good reason (ie disability, deliveries)must be either wealthy or have a very benevolent employer. It's a far different story outside. If I wish to go to Dartford Folk club I have to either drive or leave the club half way through the second half to catch a train home. My son has a Sunday job at Bluewater, but the trains have not been running on Sundays for several weeks, so to avoid the slow 'rail replacement buses'(which will still cost him an hours wage and take an hour or more to get there)I drop him off to get the fasttrack bus,(a 20 minute drive)but as he soesn't finish until quite late I still have an hours round trip to pick him up. We would much prefer to use public transport if it was viable.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 09:25 AM

When we are charged simply to exercise rights of highway and so travel we become prisoners

Too true, Richard. And those who object to having their fingerprints taken like a criminal and having to carry an ID card - which of course will be entirely voluntary - will be prisoners of the UK when the time comes for them to renew their passports.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:57 AM

Of course it could just be one of those ideas being floated about that is so unacceptable that when the real plans are published, they seem moderate.

Say the real plan is a charge £5 to pass certain congested motorway junctions and similar bottle-necks at busy times. It's not so expensive, and less intrusive on civil liberties, so seems acceptable.

Re Aircraft fuel, thankfully that is still untaxed. If the UK taxes it, and the rest of Europe does not, all that would happen is the long distance flights would all go into Paris, Amsterdan etc, and people would take short hop flights to get to them, thereby rasisng fuel consumption. It needs EU wide agreement to do any good. Of course, the political will to roughly double the cost of flying would be hard to find in a party, let alone a continenet.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:14 AM

Yes, I said it was an asking price high above.

Doubling the cost of flying would be good. It might stop unwelcome far flung relatives (not that I have any of course) coming home.....

Business travel is almost always a jolly in disguise....

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:30 AM

Agh! Mudcat ate my posting.

I can't be arsed to type it all in again, but basically I said I didn't agree with your last sentence, Richard. I've spent to much time away from home and family, working long hours for no extra pay, etc., etc., to agree with that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:30 AM

"to much" should read "too much"

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:39 AM

Oh, I used to like the trips to Singapore and California, expenses paid in hotels etc.   Even Paris and Munich were OK.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:51 AM

Years ago the French built autoroutes, for which tolls were payable, they were told by the EEC that the charges were illegal, and they said the money was being used to construct more roads, and so got a derogation. Don't know where they stand now but I do wonder whether the UK government's alleged plans are legal in an EEC context.
In my truck driving days we used the back roads in France where the food was better and cheaper, fuel was also cheaper. The French government slapped weight restrictions on many of these roads which forced the truckers back onto the expensive autoroutes.
Coincidentally, they also put a lot of Truck stops, and Cafes Routier out of business. The same will happen here!
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:16 PM

It's all about maintaining and reinforcing a class structure(based on money not necessarily social. charge everyone the same but those with lots of money wont care overmuch because they will add it to the purchase price of goods in whatever business they own,run or have shares in.it's also handy if you can afford an accountant to offset it somewhere along the way. this will be passed down the line to those of us who wouldn't be able to afford all this extra tax in the first place and make no mistake they wont reduce sod all!
As a driver of one of these TERRIBLE 4x4's I would also ask the people who are very busy condeming 4x4's to think about the future. The future when there are no 4x4's. The future when after a power cut in the middle of winter brings down power lines ( funnily enough the electricity supply people use 4x4's to get to places where the lines are down). The future where, after a natural disaster, the Smart car isn't able to bring aid. The future where the roads are clogged by idiots driving at 80 mph in the fast lane of a motorway with his mobile stuck to ther ears. The future where MP's are still being driven in Jaguars. The future where 2 lorries block roads whilst one passes the other using an extra 1mph to do it.The future where no one has any personal choice. Sorry the last 2 sentences are now!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM

Er....yes, Chris. Electricity company workers, farmers, water company employees etc. do need to use 4-wheel drives, for obvious reasons.

Are they in any way related to the mothers who drive their offspring half a mile to school in them or others who use them permanently on well-paved roads? Or have those that drive them spent all that extra money wisely, planning ahead for the one day in every few years that they might get stuck in the snow?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 02:35 PM

Well the sales of 4x4s has been dropping steadily for some months in the UK. I think they should make all 4x4s cost less than £5000, that will immediately remove their snob value, which will reduce sales even further.
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:29 PM

A simple way to reduce congestion is to raise the legal driving age to 25 years. People aged under that limit already driving would be allowed to continue driving. That way, all existing drivers would have an interest in agreeing to it, and the only people disadvantaged would be those who have yet to pass their test - they will just have to wait longer, and will have more time to save up for a decent car instead of running up massive credit card bills.

If 25 proves not to be enough, make it 30 (and so on...). It would take a few years to have the desired effect, but the sooner the government does it, the better.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 09:26 PM

SCRUMP - Yo Boy! U got it nailed!!!

Also - stop all driving at age 55. 30 years is enough for anyone to drive. It will help redefine the family unit. Parents drive children until age 25....Children drive parents after age 55.

Good for the roads...good for Kyoto...good for declining birth-rates in developed countries...good for public transit...good for property values in the urban areas...good for cab-drivers...good for local economies...good for migrant labor...good for hospices...good for euthenasia...good for solient-green.....Ummmm tastey / pastey solution....

Why do all good things originate in the UK?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:54 AM

melodeonboy you're missing the point a bit. If we reduce the demand for 4x4's there wont be any produced (basic supply and demand). That is going to make it a bit difficult for 'essential' users to buy them. That is when the problems will arise (I seem to remember during one of the snow falls on one of the southern moors that 4x4's were the only vehicles to get anywhere (helping stranded idiots in 'normal' cars who had got stuck) I feel, that with the current attitude to 4x4's, somewhat less likely to help anyone stuck in bad conditions (just in case they are a supporter of 'ban the 4x4). Having driven in London I can understand why women might want the extra vision and protection offered by a 4x4. I certainly would (better still a tank). Freedom of choice is no little thing! I hear we are now to be dosed with folic acid, whether we like it or not (along with fluoride (some industry's waste product). I happen to be male and 60 and unless they come up with some seriously life changing event then I don't see the need to dose me to protect babies!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:15 AM

Growing up on a farm in Kent in the 50s and 60s (long before the current "demand" for 4-wheel drives), I remember that the farm owner had a 4-wheel drive Land Rover. Even if the demand is greatly reduced, they'll still be made.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:23 AM

Well, Gargoyle, 55 is not so old these days (at least I hope not, and I guess I'm biased, as I'm - ahem - not that far off that age group myself). But I would support an upper age limit, perhaps more like 80 than 55 though. I believe in the UK drivers have to have certain tests done after age 70 (eyesight, etc.? I don't know the details) - maybe these tests could be more comprehensive, and equivalent to a full driving test. Not sure it would be popular with older folk, but then none of these suggestions are popular with everyone.

As for the 4x4 issue raised by Guest,chris above - many 4x4s are aimed squarely at the yuppie market and would never be considered by a farmer or other 'essential' user, as they would be useless for working purposes. How did the likes of Land Rover manage before these vehicles became 'trendy' or 'cool' or whatever they call it these days? Obviously not all of them will survive, only the best will - but that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 05:37 AM

What is it about Fluoride that really gets peoples goat? Don't you like your teeth. Besides, last time I checked we were all being heavily dosed by all this waste Oxygen the farmers are putting out.....

If 4x4s come without leather seats, the power steering is a bigger wheel, and climate control is replaced with smell of sheep, then they would be somewhat less fashionable. Does it show I've driven old land-rovers round farms?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM

Land Rover are owned by Ford. No profit = no production =
no jobs for the few car workers left.This means more unemployed with increased taxes to pay them-not their fault but not only the environment to pay for but more unemployment benefit. Why should we, in UK, pay for the environment no one else seems to. We seem to take on board all the stupidity of the EU. Do any of the other members?
And I still resent the impact on choice. By the way I humbly apologise to all in the UK. I admit that I voted Labour all my voting life. I WONT DO IT AGAIN!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:14 AM

I agree with the point about freedom of choice, and the futility of the UK doing anything in the absence of multilateral action from other countries.

But this is all about taxation and control, not the environment. This is what we have come to expect from the government - cynical exploitation of the electorate and increased intrusion into people's everyday lives.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: danensis
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:46 PM

Can someone explain why growth is good and recession bad? It seems to me a lot of the people driving around our roads are going to try and sell things that people don't really need. I'd be happy to pay a few quid more for a car that lasts me twenty years instead of ten, or a fridge that lasts twenty years instead of ten.

Anyone remember the Lucas shop stewards proposals, where they wanted to stop making armaments and make kidney machines instead?

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:05 AM

buy a Land Rover mine's done 100000+ miles and I expect to get at least 100000+ more. It's 11 years old.It is likely to last a lot longer than most modern, so called, 'environmentally sound' cars. It is also likely to have a better carbon footprint. The Prius, apparently, has a worse carbon footprint than a new Land Rover Discovery (something to do with electric motors and batteries) Things aren't, always, as obvious as they seem. I also think to many people rely on other people to tell them what to think about green issues and don't bother to check for themselves! People and organisations have their own agendas!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: eddie1
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:46 AM

Got this e-mail from my daughter.

Road tax - Government petition

This is the biggest move to tax & infringe on privacy ever proposed in this Country!

No apologies for sending this on...This may not interest you and if it doesn't please simply delete it - if you're a motorist, read on ...

It was stated on the news (27th November 2006) one of the reasons this proposal has been suggested was to raise money for possible road building and improvements to existing roads. It should be noted that of all the money currently collected by the DVLA for road fund licences, only 23% - 24% is actually spent on road building and improvements!

The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it.
The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery driver. A non working Mum who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in one month. On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit you can expect an NIP with your monthly bill. If you care about our freedoms and stopping the constant bashing of the car driver, please sign
the petition on No 10's new website, sign up here

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/ <
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

Even if you dont have a car please feel free to forward this e-mail on.

Eddie

Incidentally, at a festival I was asked by a Friends of the Earth member to sign a petition to ban 4x4s. I declined as I drove a 4x4. He then asked why I needed one and I replied, "To tow a dragster!" End of conversation.
My car is a Vauzhall Frontera, 2.5 litre diesel. On motorway journeys I get 42 mpg.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:23 AM

I couldn't help noticing the marked similarity between contributor "eddie1" and TV presenter (and professional prat!), Jeremy Clarkson.

Are they in any way related?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:28 AM

you might want to look on greenpeace site and admire their fleet of ocean going ships! I suspect that I could run my land rover for a lot of years on the fuel consumption and exhaust emmissions that the fleet has on the environment. I support a lot of Greenpeace principles but not the hypocracy that condemns my car yet causes the significant damage to the environment by their fleet. It's a bit of do as I say not as I do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:19 AM

If Jeremy Clarkson is such a pratt, why is he so popular?
We like him in this house, and think he is a good and amusing presenter.Some of the stunts on Top Gear are a bit silly I admit, but it's mostly the BBC chasing good viewing figures and not Clarkson himself to blame for that.
It's like those people who balme Maggie Thatcher for all the ills of the 70s, she wasn't alone and unaided in her pursuit of private enterprise.
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:30 AM

Since when have prattishness and popularity been mutually exclusive?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:33 AM

Well pratts are not popular in my house, while Clarkson is.
Smart answers don't change facts you know!
G.¦¬]

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:51 AM

I won't be drawn on the prattishness or otherwise of Mr Clarkson, but do I deduce from melodeonboy's remark that he is in favour of the government's proposed mileage charges for motorists, and the intrusion into people's lives that will inevitably result, should this proposal go ahead?

I'm not in favour for the reasons stated above - the congestion on our roads could be reduced by:

- increasing fuel tax
- introducing road tolls for bottlenecks (e.g. M25 in peak times)
- raising the minimum driving age to 25
- introducing a maximum driving age, or at least a retest at (say) 80

Another factor is that the population is increasing due to immigration (legal or otherwise) - the government seems to overlook the fact that the pressure on roads is increasing in proportion to the population rising, just as it is on housing and other infrastructure (schools, hospitals, trains, water, etc.), especially in urban areas (and the south-east in particular). Maybe immigrants could have to wait a year before being allowed a licence, or something? Not sure of the implications of this - there's probably some EU agreement that would make this impossible.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:36 PM

I think this thread should be below the line - it's not really about music at all!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

THe online petition against the invasive monitoring proposal is the pack leader there by a street.

Incidentally, I have been saying for about 10 years that when you take the energy costs of manufacture and disposal into account a land rover is quite environmentally friendly, but I don't need a 4x4 at the moment so I haven't got one. The idiots who use one to go no further off road than Sainsbury's car park are the on-road problem. Oh, and things like Porsche Cayennes which are about as much use off-road as a push bike to a pike.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM

Who's going to what festivals next year, and how are they getting there. If by their own transport it would be interesting if they compared it with public transport costs as a feasability study.
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:47 PM

I don't think the absence of punters dragging along the level of kit Bill Sables has in his ceilidh band is going to break any festival. Less than one in a thousand will bring any piece of musical equipment heavier than an accordion case.

As I understand it, Martin Carthy has conducted his entire career by public transport.

PA kit can always be sourced locally. The only folks with a problem are those who play something very big and exotic, like a taiko band or a gamelan. Special cases that rare can be dealt with by special exemptions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:58 PM

What a delightful day - when RainBowI was destroyed - you can "F" only so long before the French awaken from their passive drowze and retaliate. The issue was "transport of spent nuclear fuel." Unable to coherantly define their issue - Green Pease waffles - one would think they share kindred wellings from the UK.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:30 AM

You're getting less coherent there my little regular Mudcat troll!
G.
G.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 05:17 AM

Good question, Giok.

BROADSTAIRS:

Probably camping for a few days. For this I'll take the car with instruments and tent and assorted clothes/junk etc.

For extra days as a "day visitor", I'll probably take the train, with or without melodeon.

Cost by car: £8 - £9 on fuel.
Cost by train: (With Network Railcard): £10 (minimum charge) on weekdays, £7 - £8 at the weekend (+possible bus fare to the station, depending on weather).


TENTERDEN:

Last year I went by car as the camp site was out of town. This year I only had time to go for the day. As the camp site is back in the town now, I may go by bus next year.

Cost by car: £8 on fuel
Cost by bus: (Two "Rover tickets"): About £11

OXFORD:

I went by train last year. As a steward, I was given free indoor camping (therefore, no tent!).

Next year, I'll probably do the same. The bus services in Oxford appear, in my limited experience, to be very good. They are frequent and they run late.

Cost by car: £24 on fuel
Cost by train and bus: Unknown but definitely more than £24, even with railcard.


ROCHESTER SWEEPS:

I go by foot and train or bus and train.

Cost by car: £3 on fuel + parking
Cost by train: Approx £4 (plus £1.50 if including bus fare) + a possible £4 for taxi (depending on weather/level of inebriation etc.!).

TOWERSEY:

I went by car last year and may well do the same next year. I'm not sure of the public transport options. I didn't see any buses when I was there.

Cost by car: £20 in fuel
Cost by public transport: Unknown but definitely a lot more than £20.


If it were easier to get information on rail fares, I could have been a little more informative, but they are not easy to find.

My rough and ready calculations are based on one person travelling. It's likely that I'll be travelling with other people to at least some of the festivals; in theses cases, travelling by car would obviously be a lot cheaper.

I hope this has been of some help. I'll be interested to see other people's info.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM

If you go by publc transport, the tendency is to drink more beer, which increases teh cost...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM

melodeonboy, are we to assume you got your car free, it doesn't depreciate, it costs nothing to insure, it never needs maintenance and you have an unlimited supply of free parking spaces?

Fuel is a very small part of most people's car costs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:15 AM

No, don't make any untoward assumptions, Jack!

I thought Giok's question related to transport costs extra to the general running costs which the driver would pay anyway whether he went to festivals or not, i.e. primarily fuel. Surely this is the focus of what's under discussion. With the possible exception of performers, those who drive to festivals already own their cars for other reasons, so the overheads would be paid anyway whether they went by car or other means.

But if you really want to know:

My car cost £650 about 18 months ago and is probably still worth nearly that, so depreciation is minimal.

I pay something in the region of £250 p.a. in insurance.

Maintenance costs have, thankfully, been quite low (by luck more than judgement!).

I don't usually pay for parking at festivals. You'd have to pay at Rochester, which I've already pointed out. If you mean parking at home: no, I don't pay for it. If I intend to spend a long time in any of the nearby towns, I generally travel by public transport, so I don't spend a lot on parking. In Sittingbourne it's free for 20 minute stays or 30p if I want to stay for half an hour.

As for your last sentence: in my case, fuel is more than a very small part of my motoring costs; it's a significant part.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 08:36 AM

We camp at most of the festivals we go to, so we have a tent plus all the camping gear (inflatable beds, sleeping bags, stove, cutlery/plates etc., lights,...), then there are the instruments (two guitars would be the minimum), the song/music folders, and other assorted bits and pieces, and clothing, footwear,...

I can't see it would be easy to take that lot by public transport and would probably have to give up going to many festivals if the government made it too difficult or expensive to travel by car. I would probably just have to cut down on the number of festivals I go to, and cough up the mileage charge for the rest.

Even if not camping, carrying a couple of guitars plus a bag with clothing, shoes, music etc. (assuming I could get it all in the same bag) would be difficult by train or bus. And cabs would be too expensive for anything other than short journeys.

But I find it difficult to believe that the government would be able to to get this proposal (mileage charge) agreed. It would be electoral suicide, in spite of what the green lobby might say.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:03 AM

Also, I forgot to add, when camping the car provides a bit more security than just leaving stuff in a tent, so without that I would probably feel obliged to carry a lot of stuff around that I would normally leave in the locked boot (trunk).

Yes, I know all folkies are honest! :-)

But thefts from tents are not unknown (and I know cars are not that secure, but I still feel happier with stuff locked out of sight in there, than just left lying around in a tent).

Just another reason to consider when weighing up the car v public transport options.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:02 PM

Things being massivley unpopular don't stop the Goverment doing them, it simply stops them mentioning it in any manifesto.

See Iraq or ID cards as proof. Or Network rail, or the Poll tax. The current lot are no worse in this respect than any other...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM

How soon the faithfull discover that socialism is the enemy of personal freedom!
G.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:45 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the intended link between the last two posts, i.e. "this government" and "socialism".

By the way, Scrump, that's a valid point you make about security of instruments at festivals. I'm also much more concerned about leaving my instruments in the tent than in the car.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 08:19 PM

100

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Grab
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

Chris, you wouldn't happen to live in Cambridge, would you? And know a couple of blokes called Phil and Steve? (Just that I know a Chris with an ancient Landie, so it seemed a bit of a coincidence... :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:39 PM

...and now, to make their appearance possible, the musicians must add an extra charge onto the fee they must get from the festival. That will make the festival stop hiring anyone who isn't a huge draw. Those musicians will not be able to secure enough of the piddling little gigs they need to make music a viable way to provide sustenance for themselves and theirs. Indeed, they already are living in their cars on the gigging road 365 days a year.

This means the end of all of it, not just the festivals, does it not?

Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Big Phil
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:50 PM

A message to all you green tree hugging wazaks out there. I drive a
4 x 4 and am proud to, 3.2 litres of wonderful diesel power, will pull up to 3 tons, will not get stuck in 1 inch of snow, nice and high driving position so you can see over the hedges as you travel, no problem in muddy fields, Asda car parks or any car park come to think, in the event of an accident, stuff you greenies on your push bikes, i'm safe in my huge 4 x 4 isnt life grand........
Now as the UK produces 2% of the worlds polution, with the USA, China and india producing almost 80%, come on you greeny wazaks and give me a reason for giving up my 4 x 4. You green clowns out there must realise times have moved on, folk like their own transport, they like door to door travel, they do not like standing in the rain, snow, fog, and wind waiting for so called public transport. Remember [judge me in 5 years I will sort out public transport] clown Prescott, well done mate you made it a damn site bloody worse..
The best thing we can do about the £1.50 per mile road tax is REBELL remember the poll tax in Scotland, did not last two lond did it..
So in conclusion, for my green tree hugging, world saving, sandal wearing clowns, stick to your walking, public transport or beaming round the place. [beam me up Scoty]as you live on a different planet to me.........STUFF YOU ALL..... 4 X 4 FOREVER.......

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:18 AM

Mmmmm..... 99% anger and vitriol and 1% common sense and consideration for anyone else.

Hardly surprising.

Or is it just trolling time?

Caveman or troll? You choose, readers!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:07 AM

I disagree - I think there was a fair amount of sense in there. A rebellion against the mileage charge (a la poll tax) seems a good idea to me. It might be what is needed to get rid of this government that seems to have completely lost touch with the electorate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:35 AM

Ive met jeremy clarkson, hes taller than on the telly, hes about 6 feet tall in real life.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM

Yeah, he's only about a foot tall on the telly, I've measured him on there :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM

Depends on how big your telly is!
G

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Big Phil
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM

melodeonboy,
Not a troll mate, or a caveman just a regular chap who has worked bloody hard for the last 42 years and has now grown fed up with this namby pamby greeny tree loving set of clowns who now have the audacity to try to tell me what motor car I may or may not drive.
Try to get it into your greeny loving head that whatever we do here in the UK will make not one iota of difference to the worlds so called polloution problems, FACT.
I have an idea, you go about your greeny tree hugging planet saving route, I will go mine, no problem.
What if I tried to stop you wearing your plastic sandles, what if I tried to stop you hugging trees, what if I tried to stop you living life as you see the norm, YOU would be PISSED off, just as I am with you and your lot of uneducated clowns trying to tell me how to live my life. A bit of advice mate, GET YOUR SELF A LIFE.
4 X 4 FOREVER, the larger and heavier and more powerfull the better.
Yours in diesel fumes,
Phil*

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Big Phil
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:50 AM

a

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:28 AM

This has been in the news again recently, here's the On-Line Petition!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 06:19 AM

Depends on how big your telly is!

Yes, but you'd need a bloody big telly (with over 6ft tall screen) to be taller than the real life bloke.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 12:43 PM

Refresh so all three threads about the propsed mileage charge adn petition are on screen....

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 04:41 PM

After all Big Phil, what have our grandchildren never done for us? Why should we worry what kind of world we leave to them? Sod the little bleeders...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 04:53 PM

"A bit of advice mate, GET YOUR SELF A LIFE."

I have one. It's a life for my kids and grandkids that I'm concerned about, and wankers like you take away their future.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 03:32 AM

Yes, all very well being witty, but the posters on the other two threads are ignoring the facts. The petition is right about what the government is proposing, and the facts can be found by chasing the links here. So the government statements this weekend are not accurate. We are being lied to by our "leaders" again.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:21 AM

Thanks for refreshing this Richard, and for trying to keep it on track.

It really is a serious subject here in the UK and just another example of someone having what they think is a good plan which can create all sorts of problems in peoples lives by becoming legislation. Please UK Catters, have a think about this and what it could do to our way of life and sign the petition here if you agree, deadline by 20th February!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:57 AM

I've contributed to the other 2 threads and I have signed. I'm trying to chase the links so that I fully understand what it's all about. Richard is right about the being lied to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Lynn W
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM

I have looked for the other two threads to "chase the links" but cannot immediately see them - this article (today's front page Sunday Post)seems to suggest that the claims in the chain email are not true -
http://www.dcthomson.co.uk/mags/post/news1.htm
Sorry, have forgotten how to do blue clicky!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:13 AM

I haven't signed. I don't use my car much and I live in a rural area and I don't travel in rushhour and I hardly ever use the motorways and I do not work and I don't get anything from the job centre becuase I haven't signed on.

So why should I have to pay.

I just hope I don't get hit with a bill for what other people use.

As far as tracking is concerned, that doesn't bother me, as I have nothing to hide.

I think some of you are voting against it without really understanding the full impact.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:03 AM

I don't particularly enjoy driving, although it can be pleasant in certain circumstances. Mostly, though, I need my car to get around, not just to gigs but for other purposes.

People need their cars because the government (not just this one, but they are just as bad as their Tory predecessors) have been continually creating an economic climate whereby it's no longer considered important to provide local facilities. Schools, police stations and hospitals have been and are still being closed. Town centre shops are being replaced by out of town retail parks. The goods and food sold in these places is often flown from thousands of miles away, or trucked hundreds of miles along our roads. Many people have to travel long distances to work - the days when people lived near the factory or mill are mostly gone.

All this increases people's dependency on their cars, because in most cases (outside of cities) public transport is inadequate.

I believe what we as a society should be trying to do is to get back to a local economy: food produced locally by local farmers, local hospitals, schools, shops, etc. Doing this would also help create local jobs. The intention should be to reduce peoples' need to travel.

Instead of trying to tax 'motorists' (read: ordinary people trying to go about their legitimate daily business), they should be introducing a mileage tax on food, drink, and other goods.

Then it will become more attractive, for example, for the supermarkets to source fruit, veg and meat locally instead of shipping it hundreds or even thousands of miles. Breweries such as Greene King would find it less attractive to take over and close down other breweries, and ship tankers full of beer (95% water) hundreds of miles. Local industries could start up again to supply goods to local markets.

More hospitals, police stations and schools should be opened. Yes, these will cost us, but they will also create jobs locally, and reduce the number of people on the roads.

So I'm opposed to the proposed mileage tax on drivers, because I think there are better things the government can do.

And, as I've said before, I don't think the government's main motivation in proposing this tax is to benefit the environment (that's what they say, but when did you take anything this or any previous government says at face value?). It has more to do with this government's obsession with controlling people's everyday lives - the in-car GPS/mileage meters would allow them to know exactly where you are at all times. And of course there would be all that lovely extra tax for Mr Brown to squander on more ill-conceived schemes (he must be salivating at the thought).

No doubt there are objections to some of the above, but maybe it will open up further discussions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:47 AM

Villan: completely understand your personal position but can't help but wonder what impact this proposed tax would have on your club performers and audience.

As previously mentioned, lugging instruments around on public transport isn't particularly convenient for most performers. Any extra costs incurred in transportation would obviously need to absorbed into the fees.

Also, perhaps audience members, however loyal, would not be keen on paying extra taxes. It would certainly make people think before travelling for any distance, even in rural areas, so the club may suffer as a result.

Just a thought as my initial post on this thread was about travelling to festivals, but would include away visits to clubs too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:52 AM

Re. the mileage cost. As I understand it, the proposal is that our cars will have to be fitted (at our cost) with GPS systems. If a tourist (American, French, Dutch etc etc) visits for a holiday, how does the government propose to collect from them. Or is it only us who have to pay to travel in our own country?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:59 AM

Or is it only us who have to pay to travel in our own country?

Probably :-(

That's probably something they haven't even thought of. (I admit I hadn't)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:27 AM

MGAS
I agree with you and in the context of the folk clubs, it will have a major effect. I don't know if I am correct on this, but the heavy costs are surely related to peak times.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM

Or is it only us who have to pay to travel in our own country?

Seeing as I live in Kent, very near the M20, I just wondered the same. Not only the visitors and holiday makers but the thousands upon thousands of continental lorries that pound and batter our local roads and motorways, normally having filled up to the brim in France and not paying the exhorbitant road fund licence that British trucks have to pay, and thereby paying nothing toward the cost of the upkeep of said roads. The situation is already a farce if you ask me.

John Barden

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:25 AM

Instead of fitting cars with electronic tags that can be monitored by satellite, why don't they kill two birds with one stone, and fit the proposed ID cards with them, so everybody's movements will be known to the government at all times, whether in our cars or not?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:03 PM

But what if you left your card at home? How about everyone just has a bar code tattooed on their forehead, and a GPS tracker implanted under their skin. If you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about, right?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Alexis (baht cookie)
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:20 PM

Surely morris dancers will get exemption like PEL?

Incidently, the exact method of how traffic will be monitored has yet to be decided. Several firms operating in the UK reckon they have the technology to do it, but there are differing methods and until there is a trial to prove its possible, it aint going nowhere.
Alexis

good for scaremongering though

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Cath
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:53 AM

I wonder how many people who object to being monitored alrady drive around with Sat Nav and mobile phones in their cars?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:02 AM

But what if you left your card at home? How about everyone just has a bar code tattooed on their forehead, and a GPS tracker implanted under their skin. If you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about, right?

Yes, I was getting to that. A much better idea. The only problem we would have is being mugged and having our ID surgically removed for use by illegal immigrants, who would then take over our identity immediately. We would become non-persons instantly and have no way to get our identity back.

A small risk and well worth taking for the benefits to our country.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 07:25 AM

I could see the advantages for trying to cut out STD

Just imagine having one inserted in both male and female privates.

it could be programmed to recognise who is having it off with whom.

Just think of it.
Code 1 and code 2 are married to each other. So having a bit with each other is fine.

Code 2 decides that a bit more on the side is needed. So code 2 visits code 007 and has a bit on the side.

Code 1 suddenly gets a bleep on their tracker, and she presses play.

It then says Code 2 is mating with code 007 and code 007 has got a dose of this and that. This will then be recorded for evidence using bluetooth technology on to the laptop in code onesbottom which automatically prints it out from code ones stomach, which is then given to code 2 on arrival home and read it.

Amazing :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 07:33 AM

So Villan, they'll even be able to tax that! It's a chancellor's dream - Gordon Brown must be having an orgasm just thinking about all that luvverly dosh flowing into his coffers.

But will it be taxed according to how long it takes, I wonder?

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 07:48 AM

"i'm safe in my huge 4 x 4"

.... except when you go round corners too fast and roll over ...

The old Subaru has had 4WD in a normal sedan (not a huge deathtrap - 4WDs/SUVs don't have to meet normal passenger car collision safety standards, thus are less safe!!!) for decades.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

>>But will it be taxed according to how long it takes, I wonder?
<<

Well Scrump, thats a very interesting one. I suppose blokes would be able to keep the costs down as their fame goes before them. 10 seconds and out. LOL

Not sure that women would want that tax on time, especially if us blokes are looking at our watches and saying "But dear, thats another 10 seconds gone - thats just cost us another £10".

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:41 AM

Aye, it's not conducive, is that, Villan (as Mrs Brandon might say).

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM

All this angst about vehicle emissions ---!!! What if mount Vesuvius blows ( which it is projected to do quite soon ) ?? That event would probably put,into the atmosphere, more pollutant gases in 24 hours than all the world"s motor-cars have done since they were invented !!So why aren"t Greenpeace & friends trying to find a way to prevent volcanic eruptions ?? It isn"t just Vesuvius ,of course----there are other,some even more potentially devastating, "events" that are statistically overdue !!
My partner bought a Land-Rover some years ago,and we joined the local (Dorset) Land-Rover club, and often went "Green Laning" on Salisbury Plain !! Guess what? ----I only ever got out & turned the hubs ,to engage 4-wheel drive, ONCE !! Didn"t need it,most of the time !!
During the recent snow, over 2000 schools closed because "The pupils' parents can"t get them there " ---Really?? Can"t get there?? In their 4 x 4s ?? !!
Years ago, public transport was MUCH better. I lived,in the 1950s ,in Sussex, although my grandparents were in Henley-on Thames.We would get a 'bus,from Easebourne to Midhurst--another 'bus from Midhurst to Hazlemere--A train (electric) to Guildford---another train ( steam ! ) from Guildford to Reading, and,finally, a 'bus to Henley !! Actually, it didn"t take that long,really ; everything was clean ( except the steam-train !! ),there were no problems with graffiti,or yobbos,or rude,uncaring staff,or trains delayed or cancelled because of frost or wet leaves !! And it was an "Occasion"--- a "Grand Day Out " . The same journey today would be an "Ordeal" ,I imagine,assuming that it was possible !! No thanks,we have a car, and we will continue to use it for our regular festival attendances --we can get all our gear,instruments,tent,etc.in the back, & if it"s a "One-Nighter", like Towersey or Wallingford,we push the seats forward,& sleep in the back !! ( Old Renault Scenic )---- I did try going half the way to Miskin by train once,but NEVER AGAIN !! And if the government bring in all these dreaded penalties,restrictions,and hindrances, I shall look for devilishly cunning ways to beat the system !! That is,of course, if we are NOT all under ten feet of volcanic ash !!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: danensis
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

There seem to be two different issues here - the first, people who "have" to drive to work - I wonder how many people drive to an office and spend all day on the computer or the phone - things they could just as easily do from home, and how many goods on our roads are really essential, or are things being moved round in a long chain of production that could better be done in one place.

The second issue is folk performers, who have to drive from gig to gig. Looking at many performers' web sites, they don't seem to give much consideration to logistics. I see people playing in gigs hundreds of miles apart on successive nights. Perhaps a little better planning by event organisers and performers could lead to some economies for both sides?

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM

There seem to be two different issues here - the first, people who "have" to drive to work - I wonder how many people drive to an office and spend all day on the computer or the phone - things they could just as easily do from home, and how many goods on our roads are really essential, or are things being moved round in a long chain of production that could better be done in one place.

I agree that many jobs could probably be done at home, but even if they can, many employers are opposed to the idea as they like to keep their beady eyes on their staff to make sure they don't slack.

My argument is that we should be trying to localise jobs, shops, etc., as they used to be, to reduce people's need to travel. 100 years ago everyone walked to work, and they had local shops and otehr facilities, so they didn't need cars (not that most could afford them anyway). Getting back to a localised economy would help. A mileage tax, not on people, but goods and supplies (e.g. a tax on 'food miles') would help to achieve this.

The second issue is folk performers, who have to drive from gig to gig. Looking at many performers' web sites, they don't seem to give much consideration to logistics. I see people playing in gigs hundreds of miles apart on successive nights. Perhaps a little better planning by event organisers and performers could lead to some economies for both sides?

I agree, but I suspect that apart from a handful of big name acts, most folk artists have to take work where they can, and don't have much room for negotiating dates, etc. I agree it's crazy when you see an artist have gigs in (say) Torquay, Newcastle, Dover and Blackpool (I made that up, but I've seen similar schedules in real life) on consecutive nights. Most of the money they make from the gigs must be cancelled out by the travel, not to mention the tiredness from all that travelling.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:25 PM

surely the issue is to get people to think differently of their own CHOICE not force them into doing what some hypocrite in the government thinks might get them more votes for G Brown.It is all about freedom of choice and education. I wonder what the various wars that we are involved in are doing to the environment, let alone what it's doing to the victims and their families. sorry I didn't reply Grab-no I don't live in Cambridgeshire

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:45 AM

I was thinking today how many things waste electricity, that most people would be happy to do without. For example, those illuminated or moving advertising displays outside supermarkets, at bus stops, o hoardings, etc.

Why not ban stuff like that first? The only people who would really miss these would be the people who sell them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 12:10 PM

A question occurred to me about this proposed mileage charge:

Supposing I took my car to France (Dover - Calais) and came back from (say) Le Havre to Portsmouth.

Would the mileage charge include the miles I drive in France, or would I be charged for a drive I didn't do, from Dover - Portsmouth?

Or both?

Have the great brains of our esteemed lords and masters thought of this?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 12:40 PM

It will probably be likemobile phones. You will get charged at least twice as much.

Maybe you will have to pay for your French miles before you are allowed on the boat or train. That would be a good idea, becuase you would want to pay, just to get on board.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: danensis
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:48 PM

If the aim really is to reduce congestion, rather than raise more revenue, then one idea would be to have GMT all year round, and let people negotiate their own working hours. Those who want to travel at the busy times could do so, whereas those who want to get up early and miss the rush, and then have the benefit of the long evenings can do that.

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:46 PM

I will be watching UK ITV 1 on 19-Feb-07 8.00 PM in The UK. Road Price Protest Tonight Prog.
19 years of migration to England under Blair and we all pay the the price of the problem caused .Not my place to do polotics on this thread, but see the footage delayed by a week for some reason !

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:51 AM

Program is on Tonight, tonight on ITV1 8-8.30pm, wonder what approach they'll take. Website petition closes tomorrow as I recall.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:11 AM

If the aim really is to reduce congestion, rather than raise more revenue,...

[hollow laugh] :-{

This has been mentioned on another thread, but why not just raise the minimum driving age from 17 to 25, for starters?

They could allow those already over 17 to continue, but not allow any new drivers after the law is introduced.

It would cut the number of drivers on the roads at a stroke... ah, but Gordon Brown would lose their car tax revenue, wouldn't he? So that's a non-starter then.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:41 AM

I wonder whether the government, when they ignore the petition signatories (as they are quite likely to do), realise that the petition contains a list in excess of 2 million voters who probable wont be voting for them next election. If you add all the signatories, for all the petitions, together that becomes quite a few voters they are likely to lose.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:48 AM

Especially as we reckon there were a lot more people who would have signed the petition, but for the rule that only one person can vote from the same computer.

For example, my wife tried to sign the petition from our home PC but couldn't, because the govt checks the IP address to prevent spammers block voting. But doing this prevents a lot of legitimate users from signing too.

So you could probably assume a lot more people (prevented from signing the petition) could be added to the total number of people who won't vote for Labour next time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: danensis
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 03:32 PM

Of course people who are in favour of government policy don't sign petitions. So that's 1 million against making 65 million in favour. Democracy in action?

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:31 PM

Could be Democracy of course.
My opinion is that there are a lot of people in the UK who:
Don't think it'll actually happen
Cannot access / don't use the internet
Think it's an email scam
Some other equally viable reason

BTW, this figure of 65 million, is that just voters?
Does it include all the people who don't have a car?
Children / Teenagers?
OAP's who have given up driving?
Joyriders without licences?
Mobility impaired people without their own transport?

There are a lot of people of the opinion that if it doesn't affect them, then it doesn't matter. Ah well.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:13 PM

Instead of worrying ourselves silly because we're obsessed with our cars (yes, I've got one too!), what about starting a petition instead in support of those who've just had their train fares increased by whopping amounts? I recently read in the Kent Messenger that tickets from Staplehurst to London are to be increased by 11%! If you increase motoring costs by a fraction of that amount, you get the industry-backed road lobby screaming blue murder and threatening disruption.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:34 AM

LOL
I have just had Tony Blair's e-mail concerning the bill

My e-mail software put it in the junk folder. And there was me thinking that software wasn,t intelligent :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:46 AM

Yes, John Humphrys on R4 this morning said someone had emailed him to say something similar - he asked whether his email spam filter knew something he didn't, regarding anything communicated by Blair :-)

I haven't seen my Blair email yet, so I assume it was also binned on arrival.

What I want to know is: how will they pilot it? Who in their right mind will volunteer? Or will they just say "everyone in Birmingham will have GPS fitted to their cars at their expense and be charged per mile, while the rest of the country continues to enjoy motoring relatively free of government interference and extra charge"?

Unless they intend to pay people to take part in the trial, and pay them more than they expect to collect in fees?

Does anyone know how this will be done in practice?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:14 AM

It may not be a good idea to write about ways in which they can do it. They probably don't know themselves. Lets not give them ideas for free!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:38 AM

Good point Chris!

Apologies in advance to the good people of Birmingham :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 02:58 PM

I don't mind our kid

Anyway, why do you think Tony Blair is bringing the troops back from Iran !!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:26 PM

Iran?????

Do you know something that I don't, Villan, or are you implying (not unreasonably) that as pro-Iranian militias already hold sway in much of Basra, that Basra is effectively part of Iran already?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 03:51 AM

oops I let the cat out the bag :-)

Iraq

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:24 PM

Reading todays Telegraph Front Page. "A glowing Labour revolt agaihst the idea and serious doubts about the technology to be used"
Correct, Sat Nav needs signal and they dont work thrugh tower blocks,one sat above no way will could it work !
Mine doesnt work in London.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:44 PM

Oops Growing, not Glowing above .A frodian slip on my part 8>)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 08:21 AM

Maybe they're incandescent with rage at the idea?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 08:31 PM

As Blair gave devolution to Wales & Scotland he can only dictate over England on policy .Scotland Wales their opinions and views then ?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:00 AM

he can only dictate over England on policy

"Dictate" being the operative word in Blair's case :-(

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bluegrassman
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:11 AM

Many years ago a young Scots lad named Gordon bought a donkey from an old farmer for £100.

The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day, but when the farmer arrived he hung his head and said, "The donkey's on the truck, but I have some bad news...he's dead."

Gordon replied, "Well then, just gimme my money back."

The farmer said, "I can't do that. I went and spent it already."
Gordon said, "Och then, just unload the donkey anyway".

The farmer asked, "What are you going to do with him?"

Gordon said, "I'm gonna raffle him off."
To which the farmer exclaimed, "You can't raffle off a dead donkey!"
But Gordon, with a big smile on his face, said "Sure I can. Jes' watch me. I won't tell anybody that he's dead."

A month later the farmer met up with Gordon and asked, "What happened with that dead donkey?"

Gordon said, "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two pounds a piece and made a profit of £698.00."

Totally amazed, the farmer asked, "Didn't anyone complain that you had stolen their money because you lied about the donkey being dead?"

Gordon replied, "The only guy who found out about the donkey being dead was the raffle winner, when he came to claim his prize.

So I gave him his £2 back plus £200 extra, which is double the going value of a donkey, so he thought I was a great guy."

Gordon grew up and eventually became the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and no matter how many times he lied or how much money he stole from British voters, as long as he gave them back some of the stolen money, most of them thought he was a great guy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:35 AM

LOL I like that

>> most of them thought he was a great guy<<

Well I am not one of them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:26 AM

>> most of them thought he was a great guy<<

Well I am not one of them.

That makes two of us, Villan :-)

But sadly, it seems most people do think he and Blair are 'great guys', as they keep on voting them back in, election after election...
:-(

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Heed
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:09 AM

Just a note to say that any road pricing per journey will only take place in england, if it is introduced by the British parlaiment in Westminter. The Scottish and Welsh parliaments have control over transport policy for their nations, not Westminster, and have stated that there are no plans to introduce such schemes. Therefore, you should only be affected if you travel to festivals in england. More info can be found here:

http://www.thecep.org.uk/news/ViewItem.asp?Entry=1494

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM

So what will happen if an English motorist travels to a Welsh or Scottish festival? Will they only be charged for the mileage between their starting point and the border?

("Will they 'eck as like!" - Gordon Brown)

And if Scots drive from Scotland to a Welsh festival, forced as they will be to go via England, will they have to pay for the English leg of their journey, or will they get off the mileage charge (pardon the pun) Scot free?

("Will they 'eck as like!" - Gordon Brown)

(The more I find out about this proposed mileage charge, the more I think it will be doomed to disastrous failure - which would make me laugh, except that we taxpayers will have to foot the bill for this government's almight cockups as usual)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

And of course, the Scots and Welsh MP's will get to vote on a proposal that only effects England.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:12 PM

Bluegrassman. Brill and thanks for your post!