Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:54 AM

>>Good post, 'Jon Bartlett',
I think that your point about professional singers is very thought provoking (could piss off a few professionals, though!). <<

Didn't piss me off - I thought it was a good post too.
[Hello Jon, it was good to meet you in NYC back in June.]

PPS: What obscure agenda is Mr. Gargoyle following?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:18 AM

Gargoyle, a projecting spout, conveying water from the roof tops of buildings.
D Eyre,as a child I played with Bert lloyds children in Greenwich and consequently Visited his house on FREQUENT occasions, a child observes a lot.
club no 10.Birtley club[ TheELLIOTSofBirtley]
.I am beginning to NOTICE that since I changed sides on the Peter Kennedy thread, a hostile tone in your communications to me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:11 PM

Dick,
This has nothing to do with Peter Kennedy. I am not hostile towards anyone - I just need persuading sometimes.

I just cannot see the mechanism whereby communists sat down, decided to have an expansion of something that wasn't even moribund at the time and did it by setting up five (or 10) folk clubs. I just cannot see people being that organised, despite the discipline of the C.P. Nor can I see non-CP people reacting to that sort of discipline.

I am not sure of the motives. If they sang traditional music what effect was that supposed to have? If they sang left-wing songs, what effect was it supposed to have? I just don't see the point. Are your politics formed by the blues?

If this mechanism was succesful then I would like to see it tried again - IMHO there are far too few decent folk clubs.

The Elliots were proud of their left-wing heritage and politics. They were just as proud of their folk heritage.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:28 PM

"vernacular" - I've never heard thta used in this context, and I like that term. As in vernacular architecture and colourful language. It fits.

I think I might start start using it.
......................
As for the politics - it stands to reason if you've got a political viewpoint, that is liable to be reflected in the songs you sing, whether by selecting them from an existing tradition, or writing them yourself. And also in the kind of setting in which you prefer to sing them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:42 PM

Cap'n,
I think you'll find that the problem with your analysis is well represented in your latest posting:
"macoll and lloyd did urge on and encourage fellow members of the left to start folk clubs"
MacColl never made any secret of his political leanings; however, you would have had to make a guess Bert's from his club performances.
Neither of them, as far as I am aware ever aimed their encouragement to others at any political tendency, but encouraged anybody they met who they believed had a worthwhile attitude to traditional music to get involved further.
Certainly, MacColl's attitude to the left organisations' involvement in traditional music was somewhat ambiguous, to say the least.
Comhaltas:
It is not their job as an organisation to give pleasure, as laudable is that may be, but to organise and represent traditional music in Ireland. In this it failed miserably; if you don't believe me, please read Chairman Lao's 1999 'independant' report to the Government on the state of Irish music, where it gives the (extremely false) impression that Comhaltas is the only group involved in the music, even to the extent of putting the CCE logo on the report. As a state senator, O'Murchu has direct access to the national purse strings, an influence he has abused and squandered by building a display centre that has more to do with Disneyworld than traditional music, by dressing the performers in pseudo-historical costume and by insisting that they play in a style that has nothing whatever to do with the tradition in order to win competitions. The fact that they produce a magazine of such an amaturish, gossipy nature that it may as well not exist, says everything, as far as I am concerned, about how seriously they take their role as leaders and inspirers..
The last time we had this discussion you undertook to find out why the organisation had never established either a library or an archive; I presume you were unsuccessful
Those involved in traditional music in the UK must be salivating at the idea of millions of euros in grants being given annually to an organisation like CCE - I have no doubt they would make far better use of it than has been made over here with the Irish taxpayers' hard earned cash.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:56 PM

Jon Bartlett,
I would be interested to know if the example you gave was taken up by any of the writers' fellow loggers - this for me would be the yardstick by which I would judge whether it had passed into the tradition or not. My father made several songs about his work as a bulldozer driver which were equally interesting, but were never taken up.
Personal enquiry;
I believe you were once editor of the Canadian Folk Journal; are Bob and Sue Bassett still involved? If so, and you are in touch, would you please give them mine and Pat Mackenzie's regards.
Thanks,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 05:31 AM

jim, sorry ,but comhaltas was formed to preseve irish traditional music,the people who formed it clearly got pleasure from the music,and would have intended that other people got pleasure, it follows logically that comhaltas, s,job is to give pleasure ,which it does every year through its national fleadh its successful organisation of concerts. comhaltas is needed more than ever, in rural ireland,because of the stringent drink drive laws,and very little alternative transport,many musicians are having gigs cancelled because it is so quiet,it could be the death knell for traditional musicians playing in pubs[ its only the tourists in the summer and pub /restaurants ]who,s profit from food enables trad musicians to be employed].
to folkie dave ;yes my politics were formed by the blues,songs about the underprivileged and down trodden,as they were by maccolls songs,IF you dont see the point,YOU CLEARLY DONT LISTEN TO WORDS, how can you not listen to Strange Fruit,WPA Blues , GO DOWN YOU MURDERERS, Joe Hill and not be affected.
again Maccoll and lloyd did alot more than setting up or encouraging 10 folk clubs, apart from that which I have already mentioned.LLOYD wrote folksong in england, contributed scholarly articles to the EFDSS and other magazines journals wrote or added to songs Reynardine [ tam linn possibly,recruited collier possibly].MACCOLL also collected songs and PRODUCED THE RADIO BALLADS..
FINALLY did MACOLL ever collect any songs that were in favour of right wing politics,patriotic jingoistic songs, the answer must surely be no, therefore he had a motive for redefining the music, he chose what was suitable, as sharp did, but for political reasons [rather than as Sharp did making them sexually nonddescript or impotent for schools]. I,m pleased that he did this, but nevertheless he did., He did this when he produced his shows with peggy [WHICH WERE POLITICAL CABARET]Pete Seeger did this, as did the Weavers,so did Woody Guthrie[ whos guitar had a slogan on it [THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCICTS]. This is why the well known singer whos father was a Fascist, kept quiet about his origins, Its not a cool thing on the folk scene.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:12 AM

wish i'd been at that meeting in '65, whatever was said. What company! The company of Kings.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:18 PM

the trouble is in the fisticuffs who would you want to hit first. i,d go for B D ,Smaller and easier to catch off his guard,and marginally more deserving.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:47 PM

Cap'n, we disagree basically on the role of CCE - Its job is no more to hold a Fleadh than EFDSS's is to oraganise a weekly dance at C# House.
As a resident in Ireland you will be aware that it is virtually impossible to throw a stone without hitting a festival, singing weekend, music school, seminar - whatever throughout the year - virtually all held without the aid of Comhaltas, and many either opposed or ignored by them, as they tend to reject anything they can't control. The most successful of these by far, and the most influential, The Willie Clancy Summer School, was originally organised by residents of this town, who then invited CCE to participate - they refused unless competitions were organised. Thankfully the locals declined, leaving the School to flourish for over thirty years.
I assume from your tone that you are about to reveal a list of songs that MacColl refused because they didn't meet with his politics - if so, I await with bated breath. As far as I am aware MacColl followed the practice of all conciencious collectors and recorded whatever he was given, but if you know otherwise I would be extremely interested to find out what he turned down (and from whom). In thirty odd years of recording I can only recall being offered a couple of "right wing patriotic jingoistic" songs, we certainly never turned any down and we did much more collecting that Ewan.
Dictionary definition: Cabaret - live entertainment in a restaurant or nightclub with performances by singers, comediens, dancers and the like. Never saw Ewan and Peggy do one of them!
I don't know how many times you actually saw them perform but to the best of my recollection, unless they had been asked to perform say, at an event to raise money for the miners, or an Anti-Apartheid concert, their programmes were very deliberately worked out to present a careful balance of traditionalal and non-traditional items, a few of them political, but very much a minority. If there was any recurring tendency it was probably for the ballads. I could go over to the shelf and check the three or four dozen live performances we have, but I'll wait and see what you come up with.
MacColl went to join the choir invisibule in 1989. As he is no longer able to speak for himself, the least you can do is get some of the facts right. Without the efforts of him, Bert, Lomax, Dominic Behan, Joe Heaney, Seamus Ennis, Fitzroy Coleman (ay, and even Peter Kennedy) and all those others who gave traditional music a push-start we really wouldn't be having this conversation (and I would have missed out on forty years of sheer pleasure).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM

jim ,comhaltas has played a major part in the strengthening of irish traditional music,1951 to 2006, during those years its given millions of people pleasure at every national fleadh and many good musicians have emerged through it.
I believe it is e.f.d.s.s job, to hold a weekly dances at cecil sharp house, their job is to promote folk dance and folk song, so they are doing part of their job,.
its CCE job to do the same and they do it middlingly well[ there not above criticism neither is the EFDSS.]
Maccoll was a political creature,he wanted to right social injustice, he did this through his songs, his books, recordings,etc.
I cant see him being enthusiastic about promoting right wing songs that he had collected.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:09 AM

Cap'n
EFDSS is a national organisation, not a London based club - whether they are fulfilling their role as such is worthy of discussion.
Comhaltas is an international organisation - whether they are fulfilling that role is also worthy of discussion.
I would be fascinated to hear your comments on Labrat's report, which was presented to the Irish Parliament in 1999. Not having anybody to judge it's validity (other than the author), it was rubber stamped, but, following a storm of protest from musicians and researchers throughout the country, the minister was forced to receive oral submissions from the protesters (totally unprecedented for a parliamentary report).
The report has now been shelved in embarrassment as it was widely recognised as being little more than a blatant piece of Comhaltas empire - building. Read it and weep - your branch should have a copy!
MacColl
I still don't know how many times you saw Ewan and Peg perform and with what authority you describe their performance, so I have to conclude your description of their 'political cabaret' is very much a part of the 'Chinese Whispers' game that has been running at least since I became involved in the music.
Nor do you in any way attempt to substantiate your inference that they only collected songs that suited their politics, so I assume that is also part of the same exercise.
I wonder how long he has to be dead before people stop dancing on his grave.
Of course they only wrote and sang songs that they agreed with; except where projects they were involved in called for them to do otherwise - we've already has one eejit on Mudcat pointing out that MacColl once recorded a song on the Riverside series which praises Queen Victoria - any stick to beat a dead dog, I suppose. They'd have to be schizophrenics to do promote songs that they didn't agree with - do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:55 AM

I am not dancing on his grave, I have consistently praised his songwriting.,And many of his other acheivements.
I just take a less one sided view of him than you, as I think History will.
oh Isaw them at least four times and also have listened to their recordings,with pleasure many times.
your last point is the important one ,and applies to all collectors,it is impossible to not be subjective when promoting the material one has collected, which brings us back to the point of the thread.
the motives of the re definers [who can be collectors]are affected by their own subjective views, political, emotional[didtheystrike a rapport with the performer] or in Sharps case [the moral attitude of the time].DickMiles

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:32 AM

Cap'n
As collectors, they published what they were given; see Travellers and Stewarts books; as singers, they sang what was relevent to themelves - which is a far cry from your assertions of them being selective about what they collected. They were generous enough to give me free access to their field recordings, so I am fairly familiar with them.
This discussion, based as it is on the old techniques of unsubstantiated assertions and malicious rumours, apears to be now going in circles, so I suggest we leave it there (unless you have concrete evidence of their only collecting material which suited their own political philosophy and rejected that which didn't - but I won't hold my breath).
Far more relevent to this discussion (re-definition) are the vibes I am getting from another thread you instigated, that EFDSS is now considering ballroom dancing as a relevent part of its activities - now that's going to have younger people hammering on their doors to be involved in traditional music!
What was it the man said? - Those who the gods wish to destroy, they must first make mad!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 10:52 AM

I can't really see that much difference between what Jim Carroll and Captain Birdseye are both saying here, so far as Ewan MacColl is concerned. Both are evidently agreed he was a fine songwriter and singer, and that his politics were reflected in what he wrote and sang.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:16 PM

thankyou mcgrath,i,m glad someone can see it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM

Jon Bartlett & Rika,

I sure am glad to have your CDs and cassettes over the years. Great music --- and fine documents. Thanks for all your collecting.

Personally, I solved the problem of "always seeking and needing new material" by not seeking the new things being written by the modern songwriters. I was quite careful to sing only those modern songs that reflected the traditional ballads and songs. ----- I RESISTED learning the things that were merely clever but far removed from my story-loving ballad sensitivities. I'd created a musical gestalt---a museum. It was an antique shop! I couldn't have lived with myself if I had put a plastic table for sale in the window of my shop.

My "compromise" to show biz was to USE folk tales, humor, and jokelore on a given topic to set up, enhance, make a context for, and introduce the songs. Even, on occasion, in the middle of songs, I would insert a quip to bring the audience back to the relevance of the old song to what was going down right then in our modern era! I got the reputation of not doing the same show twice even when the songs were rarely jettisoned from the repertory.

I never wanted to sacrifice the songs. I cared too much about them! They were my dug-out fossils. I'm sure that some people got tired of my often repeated songs like "State Of Illinois" -- but I was never tired of them. I solved this by playing for diverse audiences on Mississippi River boats 5 moths a year and every other day. New audiences every day to win over with the historic patter so they'd see the actual value of the songs better.

The audiences changed. So I changed how I showed those songs to the people--and their differences! Age differences, ethnic, cultural, geographical differences.

This is WHY I never could accept the re-definitions!!! My definitions didn't change.

If, indeed, as we say here in this thread, the definitions have changed now, I am glad I am ill and can't participate in our music. I plan to exit this life holding to these ideals about our folk music.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:11 PM

Errrr so whats the best guitar to buy ?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme again...
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:33 PM

Martin----as always.

Tim, is that supposed to pertain to what I wrote in some way?

Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:34 PM

Well said, Art.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:18 PM

jim carroll,EFDSSS first priority is to get more bums on the seats/floors of SHARP HOUSE, it doesnt matter to them whether they are young or old, and not illogically some of those who are interested in ballroom dancing[some young people go ballroom dancing]are likely to develop an interest in country dancing. I dont think its a bad move,AND COULD BE EXTENDED TO REGGAE DANCERS[ plenty of young people do that.
Correspondents have pointed out that the facilities at sharp house could be improved.
Efdss should take a responsibility for improving facilites,otherwise attendances will start to fall.
since efdss is primarily concerned with Folk Dance,from their point of view any people that are interested in dancing be it ballroom or reggae or line dancing or country western dancing,on visiting the House might develop an interest in folk dancing,.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:11 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:31 PM

Greetings to Brian Peters, and thanks to Art Thieme, Jim Carroll and McGrath of Harlow for responses to my recent post. Jim's question about whether the song I quoted was taken up by other loggers is indeed the critical question, and one we can never be sure of, given the collecting history in BC. Among collectors, only Phil Thomas (Songs of the Pacific Northwest) ever published material such as this. The song in question was collected twice, once by Thomas in the early 60's, and again by Al Grierson in about 1980. Al's version differed somewhat, and his informant told him to sing it with a strong Swedish accent: the closing couplet being

Better off in Porty Hardy instead of down here
In this haywire outfit that Jorgensson's got here

When Rika and I have sung it with loggers and ex-loggers, there are nods of recognition and assertions that they knew, or knew of, the song, but this might simply have been conversational beerhall politeness (where informants are not under oath).

The tradition I believe was alive until fairly recently, but with the mechanization of the woods and the resulting smaller crews, its best days are all in the past.

As to the other of Jim's questions: I edited Come All Ye (1972-78), Canada Folk Bulletin (1978-80) and the Canadian Folk Music Society Bulletin (1980-1), but the names you mentioned don't ring a bell. PM me on this, Jim.

Art's response to the question of profesional musicians needing fresh material was a very clear restatement of how traditional music should be presented, and one with which I associate myself precisely. Art's broad knowledge of and love for his material shines out in all his recordings, and is a model for us all.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 01:49 AM

Jon,
Bob and Sue Bassett were Canadian singers who lived in London for a time; part of London Singers Workshop and residents at clubs we halped run. I thought I saw their names in connection with The Bulletin at one time - must have been mistaken,
Thanks anyway,
Cap'n - reggae, ballroom dancing, didn't you forget ballet? Give us a break! The priority is not getting more bums on seats - it's getting the bums on seats that are going to make a difference to traditional music, otherwise we may as well abandon it altogether and go with the flow - boy bands here I come!
Jim Carroll