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Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?

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GUEST 11 Dec 06 - 04:07 AM
Folkiedave 11 Dec 06 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Dec 06 - 05:11 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Dec 06 - 05:48 AM
Pete_Standing 11 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM
Scrump 11 Dec 06 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM
Pete_Standing 11 Dec 06 - 08:13 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 06 - 08:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Dec 06 - 10:05 AM
Willie-O 11 Dec 06 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 11 Dec 06 - 10:42 AM
Scrump 11 Dec 06 - 10:47 AM
lamarca 11 Dec 06 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 11 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 11 Dec 06 - 08:58 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 06 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 11 Dec 06 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,Scoville 11 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 12 Dec 06 - 01:08 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 12 Dec 06 - 01:26 AM
GUEST 12 Dec 06 - 03:14 AM
Ruth Archer 12 Dec 06 - 03:37 AM
The Borchester Echo 12 Dec 06 - 03:44 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Dec 06 - 04:09 AM
The Sandman 12 Dec 06 - 04:23 AM
Scrump 12 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM
The Sandman 12 Dec 06 - 08:11 AM
Folkiedave 12 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM
The Sandman 12 Dec 06 - 09:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 12 Dec 06 - 02:18 PM
Folkiedave 12 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM
The Sandman 12 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM
The Sandman 12 Dec 06 - 04:10 PM
The Sandman 12 Dec 06 - 04:21 PM
Folkiedave 12 Dec 06 - 07:19 PM
GUEST 13 Dec 06 - 04:52 AM
The Sandman 13 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM
The Sandman 13 Dec 06 - 10:16 AM
GUEST 13 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM
Folkiedave 13 Dec 06 - 04:33 PM
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Folkiedave 13 Dec 06 - 06:18 PM
Jon Bartlett 13 Dec 06 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 Dec 06 - 09:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:07 AM

Addenda
One of the great arguments for re-defining our terms for folk/traditional song (or having no definition at all) has, I believe, been based on a basic and massive gap in our knowledge, ie. the opinions of our source singers. There is little, if any, information as to what they thought of the songs,; whether they believed them to be in any way different to other types of songs available to them – music hall, pop songs of an earlier time etc. Usually, when the subject is raised the banal apocryphal 'talking horse' story attributed to Broonzy, among others, is trotted out. The fact appears to be that collectors restricted their enquiries to the 'name, rank and number' level and never really got round to seeking their opinions, or if they did, they never made the information widely available.
Our work in collecting has indicated that the idea that the older singers did not discriminate is a myth. Singers we have met referred to the songs we (I ) would refer to as 'traditional' as, 'the old songs', or 'come-all-ye's" or 'me daddy's songs' or similar terms. Norfolk singer Walter Pardon was extremely precise and articulate when categorising his songs (see my response (By Any Other Name) to Mike Yates' article 'The Other Songs' in Musical Traditions), and began dividing his songs into groups as early as 1948 when he first started writing down his family repertoire.
We have obtained similar information from singers in West Clare and from among the Travellers. Whether what we got was too little, too late, remain to be seen.
Jim Carroll
PS Quickie - Christmas shopping in Cork beckons - oh, the ******* joy!
Dave - a living tradition requires the active participation of a community - the examples you quoted are isolated survivals and in most cases revivals. The last bothy closed after a devastationg fire in the thirties - how can you have and active bothy tradition? What you have is a revival - more power to it. The others you mentioned are what MacColl referred to as 'song carriers'; a term which has always worked for me.
Declan - I confine my comments to song. The music here in Clare seems to have hit some sort of a continuum and is blossoming. There are very few singers and even most of the (very elderly) ones we recorded thirty-odd years ago were dredging songs up from the dim and distant past.
Thurg - Possibly true of my first example; certainly not of my second regarding newly composed songs.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:53 AM

Hi Jim,

I confess that I raise more questions than I answer. It is not out of devilment but simply trying to get to grips with things. Honest.

But here I would suggest you have done the same thing. The argument isn't whether "bothys" exist, nor whether the social conditions that gave rise to them exist, but if the songs created nowadays are part of a continuum. I think there is a really strong case for saying they are, since they "continued to be sung long after the system of agriculture which created them ceased to exist". (Ian Russell Folk Music Journal Vol 9, 2, 2007)

As far as the carols are concerned this is a really strong community tradition locally and was ever thus. Sure it has been adopted by "folkies" indeed I am one of them though I live within easy walking distance of the carolling pub where I sing and have done so for over thirty-four years. I am a part of that community. Virtually every folk revivalist who visits adds their enthusiasms and skill and they have contributed to its currently healthy existence. But since it is not at all organised it is a community event. A tradition if you like.

We know by the date of these carols that are sung - the vast majority of which have known authors - that they go back a long way. We know that the Americans started their tradition precisely in 1848 and it has been documented virtually every year since then. Of the original four singers, three died in the 1900's the last in 1913 so they were well recorded. We know they carried it over from the South Pennine area and are a complete link with the singing that went on yesterday in the Royal Hotel at Dungworth.

The Glen Rock tradition is equally community-based, not a revival, nor is it isolated.

And discovered long after the "tradition" was thought to be over.

(I am not sure there is a need for the word "revival": I suspect expansion and contraction would be better descriptions).

Finally Jim, isn't Cork a long way for shopping?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 05:11 AM

Countess, thank you for your wise words - I will try to stop worrying.

I suppose, Jim, if our music can survive Dave Harker it can survive anything!

I think that this is turning out to be an interesting and illuminating thread - and I don't violently disagree with anyone. Nevertheless, no-one, so far, has really examined political motives (lights blue touch-paper and retires hastily ... will it go out, or will it be a 'damp squib'?).

So far, no trolls!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 05:48 AM

Hahaha, you mean it'll be all right because Martin Carthy said so? The music might have survived Dave Harker but will it get over Ms Boyes and her Imagined Village?

Political motives: surely no-one really ever believed music woud change the world? Though it does mark important milestones. Such a tragedy that it has been 33 years between the death of Victor Jara and the New Chile Song Movement and the final demise of Pinochet yesterday. Venceremos.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM

I'm one of those that think that trad is basically a static repository. There will be songs that will be found to have an author (so therefore are no longer trad) and there are some songs which are probably trad but have been "claimed". I'm going to ignore tunes, but with respect to songs, trad songs, generally, have a certain style that is missing from modern material. I have been led to believe that trad songs often are written in a mode (eg Mixolydian) that is not fashionable these days. Another difference is that the songs were "written", by and large, so that they could be sung without accompaniment. How does that differ from modern songs? I'll take as an example "Dimming of the Day" (Richard Thompson). At the end of most lines, there are seven beats (just under two bars) left for the accompanying instruments. This is a common pattern in modern songs and this means that it doesn't sound right when sung unaccompanied. However, let's take another Thompson song, "Beeswing". In this song, there are no melodic pauses and could be sung equally well accompanied or unaccompanied. It is this kind of song that although is not trad, could be absorbed as part of a tradition. So I guess I'm saying that although there is a tradition, there is also a body of songs that in style don't just pay homage to the tradition, but could be accepted as part of it. But what I'm not trying to say is that modern songs that do not fall into this style are of less value or importance.

The importance of differentiating between what is traditonal and what is not is not a matter of snobbery. Firstly, there is an historical context. However, in todays' times, it is the ownership and royalties that might have most significance - people's livelihoods could be affected.

That aside, despite my love of traditional material, I'm equally happy to listen to and play contemporary songs/tunes, they both have a value and place. So, I'm not for redefining, but I'm also not for excluding either.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:58 AM

I understand the point you make (using the two Richard Thompson songs to illustrate it). But are you saying that you believe the ability to be sung unaccompanied is essential for a song to be 'absorbed into the tradition'? Or, in other words, a song that can't be sung unaccompanied (without unnatural pauses) cannot be 'absorbed into the tradition'?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM

Countess, am I being subjected to 'irony overload' here? No, I don't think that Mr Carthy has all the answers - but there may be a kernel of truth in what he says.

As for politics both Harker and Boyes's books make me squirm because I think that they both wildly over-stated their cases - and didn't achieve very much in doing so.

I'm also interested in the motives of people like Sharp. I once attended a forum also attended by some of 'great and good' of the (mainly English) folk world. As Sharp's work was being discussed I asked, what I thought, was a fairly inocuous question about the nationalistic tendencies in his work. Everyone clammed up, my question ignored and the subject rapidly changed. I think that it is the failure to confront such issues (perhaps because of strictly contemporary concerns about political correctness) that eventually led to the over-statements of Harker and Boyes.
Similarly, it might be productive to examine the politics of MacColl and Lloyd; if their politics are discussed at all today it is usually in terms of cheap cracks about 'folk commissars' and 'storming the Winter Palace' - which do no-one any good (and especially not the posthumous reputations of these two great artists).
In any such discussions I think that it's always necessary to keep in mind the wise words of Mile Yates, that I quoted somewhere above - things are very rarely black and white.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:13 AM

No, my point is that I think there are stylistic differences, but both have their valildity and beauty. However, it might be easier for some people for one to be seen as part of a tradition and not the other, although this will certainly change, as time and tastes move on!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM

Shimrod, 'because Martin Carthy says so' is a reference to an infamous incident in Folk Britannia which was taken completely the wrong way by some. MC would so hate it if he thought anyone was quoting him as 'the gospel according to' (even when he's right) so the phrase has indeed become a byword of deep irony.

Both MacColl and Lloyd freely gave me help and advice when I was first starting out which didn't entail my agreeing with every doctrine they adhered to. Bert especially would send me lengthy, single spaced screeds produced with a manual typewriter, far longer that my original pieces, telling me basically what I should have said. And Ewan would always ask if I was still singing, no doubt hoping that I wasn't, but it was kind to ask.

Anyway, who actually thinks the Winter Palace shouldn't have been stormed? The era of the czars was well due to be toppled when the citizens of St Petersburg set in motion its renaming as Leningrad.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:53 AM

Martin obviously has a lot of the answers that work for him as an artist. he has charisma as a performer, he is a wonderful original minded musician, and he always goes out and does his damndest - 100% commitment.

he might not have ALL the answers, but I bet he's worth listening to on most things pertaining to folk music and guitar playing.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:05 AM

I can't imagine any song that couldn't be sung without instrumental accompaniment. Including that one. No need for any "unnatural pauses", if the pauses aren't natural don't put them in.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:38 AM

Shimrod, at the beginning you offered some sample motives for redefining, which are not related to politics as far as I can tell--but you keep referring to the concept of "political motives" without illuminating us on what they might be. What are you thinking here?

Honestly puzzled
W-O


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:42 AM

So very many good words. Comes down to: The more things change, the more they get different.

Unfortunately, the new attitudes are often based on faulty information, and also a desire to make a living with that which we are passionate about. Ego driven, and often pretty much wrong, these ideas are adopted and adapted "to fit" into the all inclusive, ever-expanding big umbrella---ala Folk Alliance.

A majority of people, millions and billions of people, can do and believe a silly thing. They would still be, in the main, wrong in their conclusions and assumptions.

I guess that is not terribly democratic, but in my experience, it seems correct.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:47 AM

I can't imagine any song that couldn't be sung without instrumental accompaniment. Including that one. No need for any "unnatural pauses", if the pauses aren't natural don't put them in.

They ("unnatural pauses") were my words, but I agree. I've been forced to sing (or complete) a song unaccompanied on occasion, when either a string broke and I didn't have time to replace it (e.g. during a short floor spot when events were already behind schedule); or I wasn't able to borrow an instrument. In that situation I adapt the arrangement on the fly, to avoid any pauses where the instrumental bits would normally fill in.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: lamarca
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 02:29 PM

This discussion has, so far, been very detailed in describing situations and traditions in the British Isles (not to be ignoring your contributions, Art!).

In the US, I think the waters are somewhat muddier. Because we are a country of immigrants and many different kinds of communities, defining "traditional" or re-defining it becomes difficult. I'm trying to define some different classes of tradition as I sit here and type, and will probably not succeed in being as clear and concise as CountessRichard, but here goes!

1. There are some traditional songs that came out of a particular type of profession - lumbering, gandy-dancing and track lining, manual fishing techniques, etc., where the activities and communities from which these songs emerged no longer exist. These traditions cannot evolve within the original community. Folklorists and musicians who love the songs and music are keeping them alive by continuing to sing them, and members of this "revival" community sometimes add to or alter the repertoire in the way in which they perform them. Do these new renditions of old material still qualify as "Traditional?"

2. There are new forms of older communities, such as Union workers, cowboy poets, etc. that have a historical body of song, poetry and music that is still being added to, even though the communities and jobs have changed with time. For example, there is a thriving Cowboy Poetry festival each year in Elko, Nevada. Even though there are no longer cattle drives to the railhead at Abilene, there are still working cowboys and ranchers, and they continue the traditional art forms of that community, but reflect modern changes to it. Similarly, there are other, modern groups of people who have a shared culture that has produced music and other art forms - Vietnam and other vets, modern deep-sea fishermen, oil workers, etc. Although newly written or composed works may not be passed along except for within these communities, these are a part of a tradition.

3. There are bodies of music that have long roots and a history of musical forms that have been passed along both within a geographical or ethnic community, and also within a more widespread community of musicians who play or sing within the "traditional" parameters of that form. Some examples are Irish tunes and songs, old time fiddle music, Klezmer, etc. I think of these as "living" traditions, because both the older tunes and songs continue to be played, and new tunes and songs are being created in the traditional form. The musicians who take up the tradition may not be from the original community. The diffiiculty here, then, is what is "traditional"? Is a new fiddle tune by Liz Carroll that follows traditional Irish tune forms and has been taken up by other fiddlers traditional? How about an Irish tune whose composer is known, but who is now dead (O'Carolan, or Willy Clancy)? Is an electric rendition of a traditional old-time tune by Olabelle or The Duhks traditional? How about a fiddle tune by Rafe Stephanini, played in a more old-fashioned old-time style?

Other community-based musics, like Cajun, Zydeco, Conjunto, Polka, Bluegrass, different Cuban and Puerto Rican styles, etc, all came out of traditional forms played within a certain ethnic community, but have evolved and incorporated features of other musical forms, both within and outside of the original community. Many of these have a commercial form, where the musicians are specifically performing pieces for an audience, and a home-made form, where enthusiasts of the music get together to make music with each other. If a Puerto Rican bomba y plena group includes jazz and rap influences in their dance music that is played and accepted within their own community, is this part of the tradtion? If a Conjunto band (Mingo Saldivar, a National Heritage Award winner, to be precise) has a conjunto version of Johnny Cash's "Ring of Fire" as one of their most popular numbers both within and outside of their ethnic community, are they still traditional musicians?

We have folklorists involved with the Smithsonian Folklife Festival that will invite a band to play music of their community, but forbid them to include musicians in the band who aren't from that ethnic community. Some folklorists will hire black musicians to perform acoustic blues that they learned from old recordings, but won't hire white musicians who learned from the same sources. Is one more traditional than the other?

On the other hand, our government's National Endowment for the Arts awards National Heritage Fellowships each year:
"To honor and preserve our nation's diverse cultural heritage, the National Endowment for the Arts annually awards one-time-only NEA National Heritage Fellowships to master folk and traditional artists. These fellowships recognize lifetime achievement, artistic excellence and contributions to our nation's traditional arts heritage."
Winners have included Mick Moloney, Irish musician and folklorist; Eddie Blazonczyk, a polka master; Bill Monroe, the "father" of bluegrass, and even B.B. King, electric blues master. To the government arts agency, all of these artists are somehow "traditional". (See the complete list of winners here: http://www.nea.gov/honors/heritage/allheritage.html)

I don't have any conclusions to offer; there just doesn't seem to be any bright line dividing "Traditional" vs "Non-traditional" any more than there is one to define "Folk". There are musicians and songwriters who are creating within traditional forms, even though the sources and communities for those forms no longer exist, and there are people creating, melding and evolving music in traditional forms from both within and without the living communities from which those forms came. I think all of these have some claim, however tenuous, to being traditional.

What I don't agree with is defining music being written solely for performance by songwriters with no knowledge of or experience in a traditional form or community being labelled as "Traditional". It may be "Folk" by whatever jumbled definition people have for that loaded word, but it ain't trad. Every week, our beloved local folk DJ, Mary Cliff, hosts her radio show called "Traditions", which she advertises as "Traditional music and things you can see from there..." When she's playing the seventh or eighth electrified singer-sonwriter's new CD that just arrived in her mailbox that week in a row, and the person is droning on about his or her traumatic break-up, or their stolen car, or the oneness of everythingness, and they all seem to have mastered the "Singer-Songwriter Guitar Strum" (you'll recognize it when you hear it), my husband and I wail "I can't see it from here, Mary..."


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

Mary,

Excellent!

Art


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:58 PM

A very typical ...(artsie) Art-T... expression, based on faulty information

S....Oooooo..... Oral Tradition was based on misunderstanding, poor hearing, forgetfulness, chord confusions, faulty grammer, linguistic locality, ..... In other words....The Oral Tradition is based on faulty information of course!!!! (Not too much discussion about songs like "Dead Skunk in the Middle of the Road")

This thread is full of a stench that excells understanding!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

No trolls???? Look to the originator of this thread and their "good fellow intro."


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 09:02 PM

Art, I think Gargoyle nailed you on this one. You are too transparent in setting up a straw dog.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 09:38 PM

Shiete Mussles- I drop back in...only hoping nothing more has been posted....knowing nothing is worthy.

It is far, far, beyond bed-time.

Sorry, Guest, time is too short to reply this morning.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM

Wow, lamarca--good post. Personally, I think being too clear and concise is what creates so many stumbling blocks. At least, it seems to in the U.S. where traditional/folk/whatever term you wish has so many different origins and forms. But I guess the ambiguity of it bothers me less than it does some others. Besides, it's going to keep changing--what is not traditional now may have become ingrained in another 100 years (as the accordion has, even though it's a fairly new instrument), and songs that are currently not folk may survive in some form apart from their originals, as so many of the 17th century broadsides have.

I've heard a Western swing version of Richard Fariña's "Pack Up Your Sorrows" and a swamp Cajun version of Alan Jackson's "Achy-Breaky Heart", both of which are clearly not traditional and at least one of which is arguably not folk, but who knows? "Achy-Breaky" might die out as a pop country song but stay on as Cajun. (I doubt it, but then I would never have thought that "Chicken Reel" would stay so popular, either. I hate that tune.)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 01:08 AM

Yep, I bought the package. No apologies. Is what is. Loved it.

Onward and upward...

Art


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 01:26 AM

Garg, I think you misunderstood me.
Art


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:14 AM

I hope the original poster won't mind if I turn the question on its head for a moment and ask 'what motivates those of us who oppose re-definition?' I realise that much of this is probably over-generalisation, but it is pretty much my experience; I can't speak for other people. While I accept much of what Mary has to say, I confine my comments to the UK because that is what I know.
I came to 'folk song' at the beginning of the sixties through the 'folk clubs'. In those days, while there was much debate on HOW the songs should be performed, there was virtually no ambiguity about WHAT you would hear if you turned up at a folk club. You chose your club on the basis of performance, not on material.
This changed fairly rapidly and the revival divided into two camps, those who adhered pretty well to the 'traditional' definition of 'folk' (some of whom saw it as a form to create new songs relevant to today), and those who went along with the broader 'singing horse' interpretation. Gradually the latter won the day and began to dominate the field; many of those who had gone along with the former crossed over and became experimenters and you got the mini-choirs, the 'Electric Muse', the fifth-rate comedians and the singer-songwriters. Those of us who preferred our folk music the way we had originally come to it, abandoned the term 'folk' and adopted 'traditional' as a description of the type of songs we preferred. We jogged along in our own particular enclaves in spite of the finger-in-ear and purist sneers, until gradually we became swamped and there was a massive exodus away from the scene, mainly because people no longer knew what they were going to get when they turned up at a 'folk club'. What was left dwindled, the electric crowd and the mini choirs moved on to fresh fields and pastures new, some of the comedians found their niche in television; what remained was largely the 'singing horse' crowd tinged heavily with the 'near enough for folk song 'philosophy. That seems to me, with a few notable exceptions, is how matters stand at present.
Now, it would appear we are being asked to retreat from 'traditional' and find another word to describe the songs that have evolved over the centuries, in order to make room for those who wish to adopt the term for their own activities..
Sorry; I'm far too old to start again. My wife and I have spent the last thirty odd years in the company of some of those who we believe to be the last representatives of our singing tradition (this includes some song carriers, those who were never actively part of a singing tradition but who, in one way or another had information to pass on). Much of the information we have recorded has confirmed, to our satisfaction anyway, that when we chose which camp to follow all those years ago we were more-or-less right. Our work is archived and available for scrutiny at The British Library in London and The Irish Traditional Music Archive in Dublin and hopefully will remain there for those who come after us to decide.
Those who would like us to believe that we have a living tradition (sorry Dave) are going to have to produce much more than the tiny handful of survivals and revivals that have been put on the table so far (you can add the Kilmore carols to that list).
Now where did I put that recording of Sheila Stewart singing Tiftie's Annie?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:37 AM

Dunno, Jim, but I'd really like to hear it!

:)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:44 AM

I think being too clear and concise is what creates so many stumbling blocks

Oh bugger. There I was beginning to think I'd at last written something no-one disagreed with.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:09 AM

It depends on how you see it Jim. You see yourself as a faithful servant of the folk tradition.

I see the folk music, and indeed all human culture as a servant to the soul of man. And as such it has to reach into the housing estates and the shopping malls and business parks, schools ....wherever.

fair enough, you think it has to with shepherds, two magicians, the press gang, and a few suitably picturesque modern scenarios like the first world war.... after all distance lends enchantment.

Basically we have differing views of folk music. You have the Winnie the Pooh model that stays in Hundred Acre Wood. I think it should be like Piglet, go in Christopher Robin's pocket (or anybody else's) and go out in the world and report on it.

all the best

Big Al Whittle


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:23 AM

to refer to Jim carrolls, earlier remarks about the west clare tradition,.Patrick Kelly[highly rated west clare fiddler]said the worst thing that happened to the west clare style of playing was the advent of Michael Colemans 78 rpm.
Nextly COMHALHTAS with its high marks for ornamentation,and unconcious preference for certain styles[Kerry polkas and donegal highlands tend to be looked down upon].
Martin Carthy is a fine guitarist and interpreter of narrative songs[ although I find his guitar breaks in the middle of a Ballad detract from the story of the song] however that does not mean I value his opinions any more than any other prominent revivalist.
I once heard M Carthy put forward a passionate argument for singing un accompanied.
A few years later he categorically refused to admit that accompaniments, can get in the way of the story of narrative ballads,and become a musical distraction.
so one year he was arguing black was blue, the next it was black was white.. so I find myself agreeing with Countess Richard.one of the motives is commercial[eg MICHAELCOLEMAN]2 COMHALTAS in an attempt to preserve the tradition, they have altered it. 3 POLITICAL MOTIVATION.The whole process of setting up a folk revival,which was pioneered by Maccoll and lloyd and other communist party members,[but it re defined the music][ as they did also to certain songs], personally I thank them for it, but nevertheless they were selective as the early song collectors were,but with different motivesand different criteria.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM

I once heard M Carthy put forward a passionate argument for singing un accompanied.
A few years later he categorically refused to admit that accompaniments, can get in the way of the story of narrative ballads,and become a musical distraction.
so one year he was arguing black was blue, the next it was black was white


Surely Martin is allowed to change his mind, the same as anybody else. Perhaps he was swayed by an argument he hadn't previously heard?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 08:11 AM

of course.
It was more the fact that on each occasion, he was so absolutely, definite in stating, that his was the only viewpoint.
The real point is that he is no more of an authority ,than any of his contemporaries,such as Davenport, Killen, Handle etc. I would consider anything he said seriously,but still question it,.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

The whole process of setting up a folk revival,which was pioneered by Maccoll and lloyd and other communist party members,

I have this image as described there - of MacColl and Lloyd and other members of the Communist Party - sitting around in a pub or coffee bar and saying "What can we do to undermine the capitalist class? I know - let's have a folk revival".

At the time you are talking about Dick, (early 50's) folk songs were alive and kicking and plenty of singers and places where singers sang remained to be discovered.

So it would be hard to revive something that wasn't dead. At that time it wasn't even moribund.

My difference with Jim (I think!!)is simply that it this still going on and whilst it may be easy to dismiss this as "isolated" I still think there are pockets of singing and tradition still to be discovered. At least I would not be prescriptive enough to say they don't exist at all. I believe that the hunting fraternity are preserving material and because of political differences they are generally ignored. Certainly it is true around here (moors around Sheffield).

Some traditions are continuing unless you believe traditional song is preserved in amber. I think it changed and evolved. I think it still is.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:33 AM

DAVE. Comhaltas came into existence in IRELAND IN 1951,because concerned people, felt irish traditional music was in danger of extinction. in my opinion the situation wasnt much different in england in 1951.[please find me an english tradional fiddle player who was in the same league as Coleman]sorry but stephen Baldwin and walter bulwer were not in the same league] the ENGLISH TRADITION WAS VERY WEAK AND CLOSE TO BEING MORIBUND .
The point is that maccoll and lloyd did instigate a folkclub network,and many of the folk club stalwarts and some of the organisers were in the communist party ,Denis Manners[who started towersey village festival,Ted AND Ivy Poole who run the swindon folkclub [AND HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR 46 YEARS]Red and Myra Abbott who started and ran Southend and LEIGH ON SEA ,for a number of years.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM

I have some doubt that Martin Carthy would have "categorically refused to admit that accompaniments, can get in the way". I think it much more likely that he would have been saying that it is always/generally/often possible to create accompaniments that do not get in the way.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 02:18 PM

'Willie-O',

Whad d'ya mean, whad do I mean by 'political motives'? I thought that I made it fairly clear in my last post - perhaps not?

I think that it's fairly well known that the work of many of the important figures, in both the Edwardian and post-War revivals, had some sort of political dimension. I think that this has often led to their work being misinterpreted, or even unjustly dismissed. In the case of the Edwardians, the likes of Harker and Boyes have done a pretty thorough hatchet job - although, in my opinion, many of their conclusions are based on distinctly modern notions of political correctness or are from a political perspective even more extreme than the people they were criticising. In the cases of MacColl and Lloyd, it would appear that some people can't see past the label 'Communist'(Ooh-eerr! Bogeyman!!). Personally, I think that the importance of all these figures - from Sharp to MacColl - actually transcend their politics and, just perhaps, we need a clearer view of their politics and their political motivations in order to see their work in clearer perspective.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM

Comhaltas came into existence in IRELAND IN 1951,because concerned people, felt irish traditional music was in danger of extinction.

"If the old songs whiich are still sung by the peasantry of England ar now to be preserved for the benefit of future generations they must be collected without delay". C. Sharp, Morning Post 1904.

Sharp was wrong to say it was dying out, and so was Comhaltas. I have no idea who was as good as Coleman, I never heard any traditional English fiddle players except for Jinky Wells, although they did exist, (Henry Cave and Charles Benfield for two). But for example there were some great Northumbrian pipers.

The traditional singers around this area of Sheffield (the best known of whom were Arthur Howard and Frank Hinchcliffe) were not really discovered until the late 1960's. There was a big singing tradition here in Sheffield and all the collectors ignored it just as they ignored the travellers in the past (apart from Alice Gillington) and the hunting fraternity now. The traditional carols have a continuous line dating back to goodness knows when and are thriving. Well they were last Sunday when I was there.

The tradition was not as weak as people thought it was. It wasn't as weak as people thought it was in 1904, 1931, and 1951. It isn't as weak as people think it is now.

And the idea that people could create a folk revival (especially when it wasn't even dead) is just a joke. What they did was start a folk club or two. Suppose no-one had come?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM

the folk revival is not a term that I have invented, It is aterm we all know the meaning of, and so I use it,because its the bestway of communicating about the folk festival/club scene,from 1951 to 2006.
I have never said folk music was dead.
how many great northumbrian pipers were there in 1951 not many, and not nearly as many as there are today Thanks partly to the FOlK REVIVAL.
if you havent heard Walter Bulwer and Stephen Baldwin, go and seek their recordings out, they are available.
lloyd/ maccoll didnt just start a folk club or two they started a national network of clubs and festivals, for which I am grateful, even if you are not.
finally my parents[who were communist party members] bought Bert lloyds recordings not because they liked his singing,but because they wanted to support him,and what he and maccoll were trying to do,attempting to get young people interested in the music of the people,and hoping to get them politically active as well,that is how it was.
I listened to the recordings myself and fell in love with traditional music,In the same way I grew to appreciate Paul Robeson[ ANOTHER communist]A MIGHTY SINGER.,and someone who was black listed by the USA
COMMUNIST PARTY members tried to help each other, hard for you to understand probably.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:10 PM

to MCGRATH OF HARLOW,I know the conversation I had with Martin Carthy,it was how I described it.[the problem for me is that occasionally his accompaniments, do get in the way,why have a guitar break in the middle of a story,your busy listening to his virtuosity on the guitar,and youve lost your bookmark ]
I personally think everyone sings better unaccompanied, but in the world of folk clubs/ caberet/ festivals/to get work as a professional,you have to provide contrasting sounds;guitar accompaniment; concertina accompaniment;the occasional unasccompanied song.
Ron Taylor and Kevin Mitchell two brilliant unaccompanied singers,but they dont get the work they should,meanwhile other singers that are not half as good, but can play a couple of instruments competently are working all the time.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:21 PM

InOCT 1949 Northumbrian Pipers Society,had 98 members today it has 600.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:19 PM

didnt just start a folk club or two they started a national network of clubs and festivals

That's a great assertion Dick, just tell me how they did it.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:52 AM

I forgot to add to my list of people into whose hands the tradition fell, the idiosyncratic singers who used the songs to air their idiosyncrasies while at the same time turning them into displays of instrumental virtuosity which destroyed the narrative nature of the songs - a dominant trend in the revival for a long time - I wonder who brought that into my head!
MacColl and Lloyd certainly did not start a networks of clubs and festivals - people often give the revival far more credit for being organised and planned than it actually was. The only attempt that I know of, to influence the revival as a whole (apart from the public expression of opinions in magazines like those edited by Fred (aka Karl) Dallas) was a public meeting held in The John Snow pub, Soho, (circa 1965) with Lloyd, Alex Campbell and Bob Davenport as speakers and MacColl in the chair. The meeting ended almost in a punch-up, thanks mainly to B Ds arrogant bad manners - little changes in the world!
WEED
No, I am not a faithful servant of the folk tradition; we did collect songs on the basis that we would pass them on to others, which we have always tried to do, but that's as far as our 'dedication' goes. I'm in it for one very selfish reason, for the pleasure of hearing good traditional songs well sung.
Cap'n
We've had the Comhaltas argument before; little point in going over old ground, apart from reiterating my opinion that that worthy organsiation continues to distort and damage Irish traditional song and music with its competition ethic. As Breandán Breathnach so concisely put it - 'it's an organisation with a great future behind it' (and of late, a very wealthy one)
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM

o k . MACCOLL AND LLOYD didnt do it single handed agreed ,but alot of the early folk club organisers were of the left,some were in the communist party, some were what were called fellow travellers,they all gave up a lot of their time, they were dedicated[this sort of dedication usually occurs with political committment].Ive given some examples already. MACCOLL AND LLOYD were highly respected , and undoubtedly gave encouragement and advice to other organisers.it may not have been organised ,but it happened ,ive given three examples of organisers of the left., ah yes Denis o Brien[Theres another]
the Co op folk club, in nottingham was[I THINK ]also a Club with political connections to the co operative movement.
as far as I know there were no folk clubs run by Oswald Mosley or the far right, although there was one singer whos father had been Mosleys right hand man, and who[the father] had tried to get elected as a BRITISH UNION Fascist mp .
jim; re comhaltas,they,re examination system is a progressive step, theyve also organised some very good tours and cOncerts this year,theyre are other good aspects of comhaltas such as the provision of money for instruments, for those who cant afford them.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 10:16 AM

sorry Jim what does weed,stand for ,had Bob Davenport been smoking it.
Would you mind telling us what happened at the meeting.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM

Sorry - weak pun on wee little drummer.
John Snow Meeting
Three singers were asked to speak for fifteen minutes on the folk scene; Campbell whinged incessently about newcomers on the scene getting paid the same, or more than him in the clubs, Bert waffled rather poinlessly about - well, nothing really, but he did it quite nicely, Davenport ranted about all art being bourgeois and said that the working class should have nothing to do with it. He spoke at length (way over his allotted time) about art with a small a and art with a big A (full of sound and fury signifying nothing).
There were half a dozen contributons from the floor sounding interesting (but hard to hear as the mike was badly placed).
MacColl, as chairman, attempted to sum up, but was constantly interrupted by Davenport, who ended up saying Jeannie Robertson was a crap singer. Punches were thrown and everybody went home.
Lefties.
I don't think anybody is disputing the fact that many of the early revivalist were left wing (so what!). You can add the WMA (and me) to that list. You did rather give the impression that it was a Commie plot, which it was not. Many of the early crowd came to the music through the Workers Music Association, an organisation which produced some of the early published works on the subject Scotland, Sings (MacColl), The Singing Englishman (Lloyd), Shuttle And Cage (MacColl), The Pocket Songbook, Reedy River (an Australian musical play) and eventually set up Topic Records.
Comhaltas
You don't improve the lot of music by making it a game with prizes and inventing a set of naff rules in order to win a medal. Its competition ethic has turned off more young people than it has inspired.Comhaltas has done a great job in the past, despite an inept leadership, but in all the decades of its existence it has failed to compile an accessible archive or library. There are fine musicians in the organisation, but a decapitation (removal of the head) would help no end.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:33 PM

The WMA still exists of course and has a succesful summer school.

Robin Garside was tutor for folk music last year.

http://www.workersmusic.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:41 PM

COMMIE PLOT.[ How do I give that impression]
I explained that my parents were members of the communist party,if you read my post properly its clear from my tone,that I am sympathetic to the Communist party,AND IN REPLY TO Dave Eyre,State my gratitude to LLOYD AND MACCOLL,and others for the legacy of clubs they gave us,however you are verifing exactly what I said, that there was a left wing political agenda[NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, IN MY OPINION]., Why, assume I share the politics of Nixon, J Edgar Hoover.Joseph macarthy[and unamerican activities].
MY Father did 30 days hard labour in prison for his beliefs and making a speech criticising Edward the Eighth, and Im proud of him.
   COMHALTAS have given an awful lot of pleasure to adults and children, it has turned on more people than it has turned off,all those thousands of musicians as well as the competitors,who got to the national fleadh,who wouldnt go if COMHALTAS hadnt organised it.
now I understand why Bob Davenport sings in a high voice, in the fracas,you must have hit him where it hurts.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:18 PM

Dick,

You stated that there was a process of setting up a folk revival pioneered by MacColl and Lloyd.

You said it here.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:23 AM

I think such a statement needs evidence. So far you have failed to produce anything other than assertions that this is true. My thoughts on MacColl and Lloyd (generally positive), your parent's politics are irrelevant. My politics if you feel it matters have been wholly left-wing since the late 1950's. I have been a member of the Labour Party for most of that time - various tendencies. I am no longer a member.

I do not see the folk expansion (you call it a revival) in the 1950's as some sort of communist -inspired happening pioneered by MacColl and Lloyd. They started a folk club. That's it.

You have said it was. So produce some evidence. And when you have produced it - the club scene (IMHO) needs a kick up the arse at the moment.

Perhaps we could follow their example.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:32 PM

A voice from western Canada. Thanks to all in this thread, much of which has been very enlightening. The discussion started over the question of definition and the re-definers. The horse I myself have been flogging for the past thirty years is well nigh dead for me now, both words "folk" and "traditional" have been so muddied as to be irretrievable. What Rika and I do these days (both in song, song research and local history) we term "vernacular", to suggest, first, that it's locally made (though not necessarily out of local materials) and second, that it travels a vernacular route through local vectors - a pub, a union, an association, or a newspaper. Our town (Princeton, BC) was a mining town, in gold, coal and copper, founded at about the turn of the century. An example of the richness of the local vernacular culture: we used only a single local paper from 1900-1920 to locate enough cultural material (songs and poems - we have found no stories so far) to give two concerts in town using only local material. Is it "folk"? Is it "traditional"? Whatever it is, it sure isn't mainstream culture.

An example:

They stand by the cold deck, a-wasting my time
Not setting no chokers nor tending no line
When up comes a feller and he says, "I suppose
You work on the rigging by the looks of your clothes."

"No, I'm a whistle blower and that's my desire
You should hear me perform on that old whistle wire
When I blows for tight line I make no mistake
On a haywire Skagit without any brake."

Oh, the hooktender's crazy, the rigging slinger's worse,
When I blow three long whistles, they both start to curse
I wish I was in Rupert instead of down here
Where there's all kinds of women and plenty of beer!

It's a logging song, clearly modelled on Curley Fletcher's The Strawberry Roan. I think it goes without saying that the maker was no "revivalist": he was clearly a logger and the song makes sense only to west-coast loggers and the logging community.

I appreciated Lamarca's post distinguishing North American culture from that of the UK, and my example fits somewhere between her category 1 and category 3: it's an occupational community which still exists and still generates new material, much as it always did.

The tarbaby in the whole discussion is, it seems to me, the problematic question of professional singers and their needs (for constantly new material, for airtime, for the commercialization of music). Imagine that professional musicians were outlawed: what would fill their places in our modern cultures?

Jon Bartlett


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-defin
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 09:10 PM

Give me tymne and give me distance
Mr. t. Art - will reflect
Darkest winter nites produce twisted notes.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

This thread "feels" like a living/loving inn with Thomas Pynchon
and a coca cola.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:36 AM

Good post, 'Jon Bartlett',

I think that your point about professional singers is very thought provoking (could piss off a few professionals, though!).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:45 AM

folkie dave, I have mentioned FIVE organisers/ organisations,THE STAR FOLK CLUB. GLASGOW. Bertie Moran, Newport folk club,are another two thats SEVEN, THE SINGERS CLUB =8.Ian campbells club in Birmingham 9[ALL had connections with the socialist movement the majority of these had strong communist connections][[ the only differnce between socialism and communism is the method by which the objective is acheived ]theres your evidence;
how much do I have to give you,
DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF INSTIGATE= URGE ON. macoll and lloyd did urge on and encourage fellow members of the left to start folk clubs, they did more than just start a folk club, they encouraged and were involved in different ways wIth Topic folk recordings,they were involved in the meeting with Davenport and Campbell,they contributed to books like the Shuttle and the Cage.MACOLL set up his own recording company Blackthorn Music, and printed books of his own political songs and other peoples.
to say that Maccoll and lloyd, just set up a folk club [thats it ] is doing them an injustice AND is untrue


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Subject: RE: Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM

100


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