Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:22 PM

I found the Pat Metheny home page and played some of his stuff...interesting, obvious talent....but hardly fits Jazz OR Folk. It is more influenced by jazz, but it is some sort of "contemporary musical free expression" in which 'style' is intentionally ignored. That's fine....he intrigues many people, and he explores, but he carefully avoids labels.

When musicians branch out and create new realms in music, they need new ways to describe it, rather than strrrretching old categories. Even if they have roots in the old ways, they are NOT the old way.

Metheny himself says ... "I was just a fan of music, and I didn't know that there were differences in style," Metheny says. "To me, music was music; it was just one big thing. The Beach Boys, the Beatles, Miles Davis, and Ornette Coleman were unified by the fact that their records were mixed together on the shelves of the little drugstore in our town. There were no different sections. Back then, there were musical things that I liked and wanted to learn, and they really jumped out at me. I never made much distinction about style. That's still sort of true."

Calling it "folk" is like calling the process of tying open tubes of paint over a canvas and hitting them with rolling pins "painting". Yeah, you get paint on a canvas...but...

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:14 PM

If we're promoting recordings, may I suggest Rob Ickes "What It Is?". Call it New Acoustic (I do), Newgrass or Jazz, it is just great. There are three Dobro giants working today: Mike Auldridge, Jerry Douglas and Rob Ickes.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:04 PM

Not all folk music is songs though, and never has been, Bill. People like to dance and parade as well as sing.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: number 6
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:49 PM

Good example of contemporary Jazz/Folk (for those who require labels/categories)is Charlie Haden and Pat Metheny's "Beyond the Missouri Sky".

biLL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM

I guess it comes down to how you consider definitions to be constructed.
Some wish to define it by 'who' does it. (The famous "horse" metaphor.) Thus, anything done by 'folks' is 'folk'. Cute, but totally useless except as a way to avoid thinking seriously about it.
Others, like Scoville, suggest a narrower, but top-down category such as "origin"....but this could so easily be muddled, as "origin" itself has many categories implied within it. 'Anonymous' origin? 'Age' origin? 'Place' origin? Some combination of those?

   What I prefer is a bottom-up, inductive definition, in which the rules for categories are 'discovered' by analysis OF music which is generally agreed on to be in the scope of the agreed on term.

Example: Take the Digital Tradition database, which is a collection of music submitted and collected by people who have been immersed in 'folk/trad' music for a long time. Now, take all the members of Mudcat and have them examine all the songs in the database, and, to the best of their ability, check off the ones they really think fit.
.....there will be some differences of opinion...Now, make a list of all the songs which are almost universally agreed on to be 'folk/trad'....let us suppose it includes 72.49% of the database contents.

Now comes the fun part.....WHY were those songs agreed on? What are the common characteristics that these songs seem to share that make them so obvious? (and as a secondary project, why were some songs NOT agreed on by a lot of ...ummm..'folks'?)

   I suggest that this would produce a list of from 5-6 to 10-15 characteristics (depending on how thinly we slice) that 'define' the genré. Then, to use the system, we would ask "does song 'X' have some, most or all of these defining characteristics?" This yields catagories like 'age','anonymous author', 'subject matter', 'style', 'commercially directed', 'copywrited' ....etc....

Note..**IT WOULD NOT BE REQUIRED TO HAVE ALL OF THEM**!!!! All this does is to indicate a relative position and help clarify thinking.....and, of course, that is how the DT database was constructed in the first place! Not by formally using this arcane process I have described, but in a subjective way. Since there are no laws to govern this, or official "Board of Musical Supervisors", it would not be written out or chiseled in stone, but if thought about, might cause contemplation....and of course, that is all *I* am trying to do right now....cause any masochists who have read this far to *think* about what categories and definitions are good for and how they are organized.

   Obviously, we are not going to 'have a vote' or 'form a committee' to DO this process, but merely by comtemplating the idea, it is possible to see WHY "Blue Suede Shoes" would get fewer 'votes' than "The Twa Corbies"....and thus, why it makes shopping for CDs easier for people like me if Elvis Presley is not included in a 'folk' catalogue. It is a practical matter! There ARE different 'feels' to various styles of music, and it is flatly useful to have words reserved for them.

I, it happens, am programmed to like older, more 'traditional' music, and, even though I appreciate many of the newer songs, it is usually because they have more of the 'feel' of the older ones. Many of Eric Bogle's, or Utah Phillips' songs have a larger % of the 'folk' characteristics than those of, say, "Nine Inch Nails" *grin*...or even Bob Dylan, though a few of Bob's do well in this subjective system.

Respectively, then, I submit that Trad Jazz, as great as it is, just should not be hit with a label that suggests it ought to be lumped in with Folk...this is just a careless misuse of both language and the reasoning process. For those who might still disagree, I would ask "what purpose does such a label serve"? My idea serves to clarify and make a distinction that is not only needed, but implicitly used every day.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:15 PM

Sandals for folkies? More likely Brown Boots. (I arsk yer...)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM

I think all this Trad Jazz Folky confusion stems from the fact that all Trad Jazzers and Folkies wear sandals as footwear of choice

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:39 AM

The thing that Americans might miss about this is that Trad Jazz, as an amateur/semi-amateur activity in the UK, was quite an active scene in pub sessions in the UK for quite a long time after the music had stopped featuring in the record charts. Generally before folk sessions really came along. The two operated in parallel, often in the same pubs, often with the same kind of people, players or punters. And distinct from the Jazz scene as such, which tended to look down on all this.

Dire Straits' "Sultans of Swing" is about this type of thing (though of course not an example of it - though the mood is right):

And a crowd of young boys they're fooling around in the corner,
Drunk and dressed in their best brown baggies and their platform soles.
They don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band.
It ain't what they call rock and roll -
And the Sultans played Creole

(Here's Dire Straits playing it live, but it takes some time to load.)

My impression is there's not too much of that around now. Pity. No, not part of "the Folk Scene" - but Folk Music alright.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scoville
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:36 AM

Bill D--yes, "old-time" is narrower but it could still include everything you listed there. It's not just the tin-pan-alley-esque stuff. At least, it's not around here. (Personally, the New Lost City Ramblers are pushing it for "old time", for me. Too much 1960's folk revival in them.)

Personally, I think "folk" makes very little sense as applied to musical STYLE. It works much better if its used to describe origin, independent of style, influence, or other applicable genre; it could include all the genres that could be considered "folk". (Emmylou Harris is often cited as folk. Stylistically she's in that ambiguous folk/country/gentle rock area, and it seems to me she's been a rather big-name studio artist for a very long time now . . . )

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:41 AM

Most of the porch singers tended to have a healthy helping of things like "The Japanese Sandman" and "Everybody Works But Father" in their songbags--even the "folksongs" tended to be learned from songbooks. Most of our best loved American folksongs were fairly obscure when collected, and, before being published, were known either in isolated regions, or were confined to certain occupations.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:24 PM

I realize that you are not being flippant.

sorry, but "Old Time" (old timey) also has a narrow, specific meaning. It refers, as you no doubt know, to the acoustic, largely band/group music of the early part of the 20th century(what the New Lost City Ramblers do). It is within the needed definition, but not inclusive.

I see my question was phrased so that it did sound very much like that....I should have written a longer sentence...*wry smile*. What I need is to be able to group traditional English ballads, American play-party songs, Civil war songs, and a lot of other stuff largely passed down in oral tradition, under a general term. For awhile, "folk music" handled that. Then as people messed with it, started writing "new" stuff..(singer-songwriter stuff, hoping for profit) and 'arranging' the older stuff, the 'feel' of it changed..(You know what I mean)..and "folk" was just SUCH a convenient word for anything done anywhere near an acoustic guitar or banjo.

It's not that I have some "primal need" to hoard that word for myself, but sheesh....I DO need to be able to differentiate "traditional" old music from its 2nd & 3rd cousins...and even the word 'traditional' is being co-opted.

What IS a purist snob to do? *sniifff*

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:46 PM

"...how, may I ask, do I refer to the old, acoustic or acapella, music people used to play on porches or taverns etc....largely before commercial recorded music?

Old time.


(No, I'm not being flippant.)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM

Yes I guess we'll let you refer to that as folk, even though it's a bit of a misnomer, seeing so few folk are interested.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM

"I submit that jazz is a form of folk music. If folk music is something that the people listen to and participate in, then Swing from 1930's - 50's could also be called Folk Music."

well, gosh...I hate to be seen arguing with a legend *grin*....but all that means is that you subjectively use a very broad definition. The big word there is 'if'...**IF** folk music is defined as broadly as that, then 90+% of music might be called 'folk', and would cease to mean much at all! I repeat...the words exist to REFER to differences.

"Jazz" means something...as does Bluegrass and Hip-Hop....if you want all that to be covered by "folk"...how, may I ask, do I refer to the old, acoustic or acapella, music people used to play on porches or taverns etc....largely before commercial recorded music? Do I have to use a 27 word sentence to refer to most of what is in the Digital Tradition database? Shucks...those Bluegrass folks get to reserve THAT name for a fairly narrow bunch of stuff, as do the Jazz folks....but being 'folks' doesn't make everything they do "folk music"...that's really just a linguistic accident.

This here English language is tricky...it'll make you think you said somethin' when you didn't...*grin*

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

I should have appended some sort of disclaimer on the Bill Monroe quote--it is his explanation of what he was doing. I cite him purely to make a point--his views. of himself and others, are not necessarily mine--I say no more, as I have gotten in enough trouble today.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:39 PM

M TED ive been playing music since 1958,. now monroe was a very competent player and is entitlted to his opinions but I dont agree with bill monroes analysis,.
whos side was he on, when Senator Macarthy was pursuing Pete Seeger and blacklisting suspected communists Musicians,.such as[Paul Robeson]
just like you dont pay much heed to Humphrey lyttleton,I dont pay much heed to Monroe, well just have to amicably disagree

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:44 PM

I started playing country music at the end of the sixties/beginning of the 70's, with a number of older musicians who had come up from the South. You will be surprised to know, as I was at the time, that these guys often considered themselves to be jazz musicians. Most had played what has been labelled "country music" since before the war--and they played it all.

And here's a quote, direct from the father of bluegrass himself, Bill Monroe, lifted from this websitehttp://www.balboafeet.com/articles/billmonroe.php --

"It's got a hard drive to it. It's Scotch bagpipes and old-time fiddling.... It's blues and jazz, and it has a high lonesome sound. It's plain music that tells a story. It's played from my heart to your heart, and it will touch you."

You can believe him, or not.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:51 PM

Strangely enough, I'd say the traddy boys were nearer to bebop than any of us mouldy fig boys playing contemporary with its four square rhythms and relatively simple chord progrssions.

bagpipe players, and celtic music players all play more complicated scales and rhythms than we do.

For example the famous Byker Hill that Swarbrick and Carthy play has a time signature that is more like Mingus/Bartok/frank Zappa and that sort of weirdness than most of us guys would ever dream of taxing our paltry talents and listening abilities with.

Back in the sixties, British sax player Joe Harriot made a very interesting record of bebop sax, set against Indian instruments. And you sometimes hear Van the man doing something quite similar aginst a backwash of Irish instruments.

Truth is, the musicians have been there for years, its the critics and fans who need to catch up.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:50 PM

Thanks for the kind words, PDQ--I guess I do try to keep things interesting.

As a point of information, McG, my points are not so much about what I like or don't like, they are about the mechanisms that are used to play one kind of music or another.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:29 PM

thankyou. m ted, did sayJazz is really a process that is at the root of most american popular music,it has been said that bebop was one of the primary influences of bluegrass.
sorry, but i dont see much influence of bebop in the stanley brothers music., or in bluegrass,i hear a strong american mountain /old thyme influence, and a smaller blues influence., in both the flatt /scruggs and stantleys, ihear no bird like solos.
jazz is not at the root of country music ,which surely qualifies as american popular music. and I am aware of Western swing,which i see as a cross between jazzand old/thyme[but it isSTILL not at the root of COUNTRY].
Mted you know nothing about me ,so its a bit silly to accuse me of mis information.like yourself i have been absorbed in american music , of all sorts.for many years.I ALSO TEACH TRAVIS GUITAR ETC just like yourself.
I do think trad jazz ,is part of the folk scene[with qualifications ]
see earlier posts. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:03 PM

M.Ted is one of the most interesting people at the Mudcat. I never miss one of his posts, as I know there will be something to learn. As far as being polite and articulate, we all are wanting in these skills to some extent.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:44 PM

"I never said that jazz was at the root of Appalachian Music" - so why should M Ted describe Captain Birdsey's comment that ""jazz is not at the root of the old APPALACHIAN MUSIC" as a rebuke?

All the Captain said was that he didn't much like some of the music that M Ted does like. That wasn't a rebuke. Musical tastes differ, that's all. That's why there's a Mudcat in the first place.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM

Well that seems fair enough M Ted. No harm done in my case, and I would like the thread to be constructive and helpful from all parts of the world.
Its not meant to be an argument about where it came from, but more about wether Trad Jazz is part of the folkscene.
Any facts that substantiate or not are all welcome, but lets try and at least keep this thread from getting into arguments.

Cheers

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:23 PM

In reviewing what some feel are offensive comments--I see that I directed my ire vaguely at "across the pond types whose enthusiasm surpasses their expertise." I see in retrospect, that it could appear to apply to a lot of perfectly fine, talented, and intelligent people--much regret for that.

You certainly can discuss--whatever you want, and play, and listen to whatever sort of music you want. And, of course, you may feature whatever you like in your music programs. I have great respect for those who, without (or even with) compensation, do the unappreciated work of conceiving, producing, and booking musical events.

I have no issue with any of that. I just don't like being "told" what Bluegrass music, and jazz for that matter, is or isn't.

Captain Birdseye rebuked me with this comment "jazz is not at the root of the old APPALACHIAN MUSIC ,most of it came from Scotland, England, Ireland".

I never said that jazz was at the root of Appalachian Music. I only said that Blind Blake's Rags, Travis-picking, and Scrugg's three finger banjo style were rooted in jazz. I have played, studied and taught this sort of music for many years--so I have first hand knowledge.   

Captain Birdseye's comments, and those of others, like Bernard, were dismissive, without any substance, other than that the music was from "Scotland, England, and Ireland".

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: eddie1
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:54 AM

Well said Scrump!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:35 AM

I am a bit peeved that, given this is an American forum, with many American musicians, musicologists, and and others who have studied, and understand this stuff fairly exhaustively, we are expected to take direction from across the pond types whose enthusiasm surpasses their expertise.

I don't want to get you into yet another slanging match, M.Ted (you seem to be involved in enough already). But your remarks above are objectionable, as they imply that people outside the USA are not qualified to contribute to this discussion simply because they are 'across the pond'.

Given that this discussion is about 'trad jazz' (a UK term I believe, not normally used in the USA AFAIK), I don't see how you can justify your remarks. I think you should apologise to all non-US readers of this thread.

And nobody is 'directing' anyone - where did you get that idea? This is a discussion open to all, in the spirit of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: eddie1
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:26 AM

Excellent thread and good to hear the differing opinions (with the exception of MTed who obviously has his head so far up a certain portion of his anatomy that his post had to be a skilful example of touch-typing,)

For me, I guess my first hearing of any kind of "folk music" was going to a Ken Colyer concert in the early fifties and hearing the Ken Colyer Skiffle Group. My musical path was then Lonnie Donegan – skiffle - Woodie Guthrie – Jimmy Rodgers – Carter Family – Bluegrass – Hank Williams. At this point things moved equally along several paths. Folk club (The Howff in Edinburgh) – Scottish folk music; Country – back to bluegrass – Old Time Music – Scottish/English/Irish folk music. Traditional Jazz.
Somewhere through this I learnt to play double bass then guitar and along with the music mentioned above, played pop of the time (more paying gigs).

I think more folks than care to admit it owe their interest in folk music to Lonnie and without Traditional Jazz, he would not have had the exposure he did. I believe Traditional Jazz is certainly a first cousin to Folk Music and whether or not it would be welcome in a folk club is very much up to the open- or narrow-mindedness of the organisers. Provided nobody comes along expecting to hear traditional, unaccompanied folk songs, there should be no problem.

Keep it coming.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

Actually the term "Dixieland" came from the Original Dixieland Jass Band who recorded the first generic music.

The question of labels comes into play. Was Bix a trad jazz player, a "dixie" player or a variation of New Orleans (because he was influenced by Louis)? Well using so many labels, a lot of misinformation is fed about the music itself. As in the field of jazz as well as "folk", influences range widely and it's difficult to pin-point a style of music without referring to other influences outside that music.

Is there a real "Folk Scene" or is it a self-conscious attempt to recreate what is thought of as folk music for a small coterie of music enthusiasts?

As to the "stripey vests" and "garters on the arm", you only need to be reminded of those practioners of "folk" who dress in overhauls, wear funny hats or sun glasses to attempt to give their expression a visual validity.

Jazz is an amalgam of many different forms of music, classical, folk, ethnic, etc. The main thrust I advocate is that jazz is essentially an improvisational expression. There are those who disagree claiming that jazz "charts"...musical arrangments...constituted a jazz expression. I believe that there are those folk musicians who improvise thus making what they do a candidate for a kind of folk jazz. The blues players are one example.

So the Trad Jazz scene in the UK as well as the Folk Scene may be enclaves of people interested in certain musical expressions but whether they are actually representative of jazz or folk music is questionable. It depends upon how big you want to make the tent.

I submit that jazz is a form of folk music. If folk music is something that the people listen to and participate in, then Swing from 1930's - 50's could also be called Folk Music.

If Folk Music is an arcane study by folklorists and academicians, then certain preferences may establish a bias in favor of that kind of music.

The solution is to then go to the music you prefer to listen to represented by the artists who play it. The labels have a value to a point. But they break down when you analyze them closely. Most of the good that the labels do is point you to the right record bin in the store.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Declan
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

A lot of people on this forum and elsewhere seem to view folk music from their own perspectives, I suppose we all do to some extent.

The question has been interpreted by some as meaning "is trad Jazz acceptable in English Folk clubs", where others started to talk about traditional English folk.

Someone early in the thread even suggested that it was okay to bring in "non-folk music such as bluegrass" occasionally.

Now whatever about trad. jazz which to me is a folk music which grew up in the melting pot that is the US, anyone who thinks that bluegrass isn't folk music wears a very narrow pair of blinkers indeed.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:33 PM

M.Ted, You come over to me as an arrogant sod.

Believe it or not, there are a great many fine Jazz musicians on this side of the pond. There are also people on this side of the pond who are very knowledgeable about Jazz. To use your expression, they have studied and understand the stuff.

We are more than happy to acknowledge the American origins of Jazz, but I think you really ought to appreciate that good Jazz is not confined to the USA and this has been the case for many years now.

I think it is fair to say that we are unlikely to find real Jazz experts on a folk music site - from either side of the pond.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:12 PM

Why should you be peeved M Ted

I as a novice invited anybody around the world to join in a very interesting topic.

Are we in the UK not allowed anymore to participate on this website.

Do you run a folk club M Ted?

I do and I run it out of the goodness of my heart and on a no profit basis. I provide a place for many performers to show what they are made of and get a decent amount of people who come to listen.
I feel that I have just as much right to be involved in Mudcat as performers.

Sorry if that offends you M Ted, but thats the way it is. If you don't like the thread then don't post.

Iam not a performer, just a stupid prat who tries to promote folk music in its many guises to a rurtal community. I don't ask for anything.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

You lost me there Ted - you want the Yanks in or out.....?

I don't think we are excluding anybody.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:29 PM

I am a bit peeved that, given this is an American forum, with many American musicians, musicologists, and and others who have studied, and understand this stuff fairly exhaustively, we are expected to take direction from across the pond types whose enthusiasm surpasses their expertise.

You're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:12 PM

Some links to the songs that we could listen to would also be verfy much appreciated.

What a cracking thead. Keep it coming.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: BanjoRay
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM

Well, Villan, one example is the Derby Ram that crossed the pond and evolved into Didn't He Ramble, that was recorded by Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers (old time string band) and by many New Orleans jazz bands. It is also done by Bluegrass bands, but I can't think of an example at the moment.
Ray

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM

the house of the rising sun,in different forms qualifies.clarenc e ashley rising sun blues, leadbelly, house of the rising sun, sung in both blues and folk music,and occassionally played by trad jazz bands,occassionally by bluegrass bands..
sitting on top of the world,I have recorded it folk style with concertina[around the harbourtown c d]sonny Terry AND brownie Mcghhee [blues] bluegrass bands[acuff].Occassional TRAD JAZZ BANDS.DocWatson APPALACHIAN

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:18 AM

Is it possible for mudcatters to any music snippets that we could listen to that might help understand the fifferences based on the arguments above?

Also can anybody think of any songs that are sung in Trad Jazz, Folk Music, Apalachian, Bluegrass, Blues etc.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,shepherdlass
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:06 AM

For good harmony singing in jazz, also check out Take Six. Brilliant, gospelly (and therefore very folky) harmonies.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:40 AM

All these arguments always come down to the same thing.

There is an element in traditional English folk scene that sees itself aloof from the rest of us. Not a large large element perhaps - but an influential element. They held key positions as DJs and journalists in the bad old days before the internet introduced an element of democracy into the situation.

Their snobbishness had a deep and proud resonance within certain elements of our middle classes. And still they talk to us as though we are pieces of shit, to be excluded from the folk music movement and folk music radio whenever possible.

What is it the IRA say....... our day will come - or some such. Perhaps not in my lifetime, certainly many great writers and artists must have been lost to this bullshit. I can think of several. However I believe the role of these people in all this, will seen in history as shameful.

Big Al Whittle
(whose first guitar/banjo hero was Eddie Condon - guitar/banjo player to Bix Beiderbeck, Fats Waller, The Mound City Blues Blowers, Bud Freeman and others. Incidentally Eddie played a four string guitar - abit like Johnnie Handle and Seth Lakemen, and a Vega banjo - like folksinger and instrumentalists too numerous to mention)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: fat B****rd
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM

"you just do not hear good harmony singing in jazz" ???????
Try Lambert, Hendricks and Ross/Bavan or the less comercial Manhattan Transfer.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 11:12 PM

Nobody said Appalachian music didn't have UK roots. Jean Ritchie, among others, have proven that even if any reasonable person had ever doubted it. It was only pointed out that Appalachian music is not the sole root of bluegrass and that bluegrass owes very nearly as much to blues as it does to anything else. There are also some significant differences, though, between bluegrass and older forms of Appalachian music.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:53 PM

"you just do not hear good harmony singing in jazz,"

so ... you don't hear good harmony in a lot of folk music either.

biLL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:18 PM

A banjo is a banjo. They come in different tunings and so forth and get played differently, but so do fish and you wouldn't call a sardine a bird just because it's not a shark.

And a banjo is a key instrument in early kinds of jazz, then or now.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:14 PM

Try asking Cathryn Craig about Appalachian links with the UK... her Great Grandaddy was even recorded and photographed by Cecil Sharp when he was in the Appalachians researching exactly that.

This is FACT, not OPINION.

These days Cathryn tours with her partner, Brian Willoughby (ex Strawbs), and proudly talks about the UK/Appalachian connection during gigs. As she's talking about her immediate family, I reckon she's something of an authority on the subject...

Oh, and Debbie McClatchey is another you could ask...

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:07 PM

Where have I been? Around good music all of my life. So "huh" back. I also forget that you just do not hear good harmony singing in jazz, either.

And Louis Armstrong hardly made it work with a banjo. A trumpet and a smelly old handkerchief, maybe, but if you confuse a dixieland style banjo with a banjo in folk music, you obviously are confused.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:44 PM

this is confusing...

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM

mted; have a listen to the pete seeger playing the banjo thread, recorded in 1949.he talks about old scotch ballads that arrived in america 200 years ago,and links them up to american banjo playing.
now I grant you there is also a blues,as well as a country and old thyme influence in bluegrass ,the blues scale and the bluegrass scale are the samething [Albeit against different chord sequences,and used slightly differently].
however most of the singing has a much stronger old thyme appalachian influence,here is a quote from the back of a stanley brothers vinyl lp..
THE STANLEY BROTHERS are one of the few acts that consistently experience good sales of country tunes and MOUNTAIN BALLADS.[its these mountainballads that came from scotland etc].now please dont tell me ths Stanley brothers are not bluegrass, WHAT IS CLINCH MOUNTAIN BACKSTEP[ To my mind they are closer than merle travis[dark as the dungeon and nine pound hammer have been included in folk collections and the latter in traditonal finger picking FOLK styles,In my opinion Merle Travis was a folk country crossover,his songs may be covered by bluegrass artists but they are also covered by folk artists.
check out Jean Ritchie, Doc Watson, Clarence Ashley ,and then woody guthrie AND MRS TEXAS GLADDEN singing in pete seegers film AN OLD BALLAD
what Pete Seeger effectively says is that in the south the two traditons met. end product to my ears BLUEGRASS ,..
jimmie Rodgers who was not BLUEGRASS was more interesting incorporating the swiss yodel, twelve bar blues,on occasions jazz players like Louis Armstrong, EarlHines.
I hope you are not going to try and say that there is no connection between bluegrass banjo and other American banjos styles.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:22 AM

Ice Cream George Lewis & his Ragtime Jazz Band

Have a listen. Good for singing to.

Ice Cream

Maybe not suitable for a folk evening as its too uptempo and happy LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:08 AM

"jazz basically sucks. You can't sing along with it, whistle it, and it is usually impossible to make it work with a banjo."


HuH ?!?!?!?!?!
Where have you been?

biLL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:01 AM

Louis Armstrong made it work with a banjo.