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Xenophobia

AlistairUK 16 Mar 99 - 04:34 PM
katlaughing 16 Mar 99 - 05:04 PM
AlistairUK 16 Mar 99 - 05:22 PM
Bert 16 Mar 99 - 05:29 PM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 16 Mar 99 - 06:29 PM
Bob Landry 16 Mar 99 - 08:37 PM
catspaw49 16 Mar 99 - 10:12 PM
ddw in windsor 17 Mar 99 - 01:24 AM
j0_77 17 Mar 99 - 01:41 AM
Steve Parkes 17 Mar 99 - 04:02 AM
AlistairUK 17 Mar 99 - 05:43 AM
catspaw49 17 Mar 99 - 09:24 AM
MMario 17 Mar 99 - 10:17 AM
Cara 17 Mar 99 - 11:09 AM
The Shambles 17 Mar 99 - 11:28 AM
j0_77 17 Mar 99 - 11:35 AM
AlistairUK 17 Mar 99 - 11:36 AM
Steve Parkes 17 Mar 99 - 11:57 AM
Pete M 17 Mar 99 - 04:08 PM
catspaw49 17 Mar 99 - 04:32 PM
Bert 17 Mar 99 - 04:46 PM
Lonesome EJ 17 Mar 99 - 04:52 PM
katlaughing 17 Mar 99 - 05:43 PM
catspaw49 17 Mar 99 - 05:51 PM
Pete M 17 Mar 99 - 06:27 PM
Penny 17 Mar 99 - 07:25 PM
Penny 18 Mar 99 - 03:03 AM
Steve Parkes 18 Mar 99 - 03:43 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 18 Mar 99 - 04:04 AM
Banjer 18 Mar 99 - 06:46 AM
Steve Parkes 18 Mar 99 - 08:01 AM
AlistairUK 18 Mar 99 - 08:41 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 18 Mar 99 - 10:45 AM
Steve Parkes 18 Mar 99 - 10:56 AM
Neil Lowe (inactive) 18 Mar 99 - 11:43 AM
Zena Fobic 18 Mar 99 - 01:12 PM
Bert 18 Mar 99 - 01:30 PM
AlistairUK 19 Mar 99 - 11:00 AM
Cara 19 Mar 99 - 02:25 PM
Banjer 19 Mar 99 - 06:58 PM
LEJ 19 Mar 99 - 07:32 PM
Steve Parkes 22 Mar 99 - 03:47 AM
AlistairUK 22 Mar 99 - 04:56 AM
catspaw49 22 Mar 99 - 05:03 AM
Steve Parkes 22 Mar 99 - 07:02 AM
Banjer 22 Mar 99 - 07:05 AM
Ferrara 22 Mar 99 - 08:53 AM
AlistairUK 22 Mar 99 - 08:59 AM
Neil Lowe (inactive) 22 Mar 99 - 09:04 AM
Steve Parkes 22 Mar 99 - 09:08 AM
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Subject: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 04:34 PM

I have created this new thread as a sort of rant that I always had with the folk world. In response to something BenM said in the mingulay boat song's minch thread. This thing about english speaking only is worth the bother is really narrow minded and hurtful...I'm sure that BenM was joking...infact I think I could bet that I know he was joking...but there are those out in the world that take this very very seriously.

In my time in the very small folk world of the british isles, I was lucky to have been associated with some of the most open minded people I have ever met. Yet there were those who would get up and walk out of the room if someone sang a song in French, or patronised a 'foreigner' when they came to the clubs to play or to sing. This became increasingly irritating as time went by and I felt that I was being pushed away from the music that I loved. I know that xenophobia is traditional, but does that mean we have to preserve it...I was oft' heard to say. Now in the macrocosm, as it were, of the folk world I would like to see that xenophobia doesn't find its way into this world...by definition the 'net is far from insular (which folk clubs are, but attitudes are.

Okay I've started and I'll let you lot finish...this is an effort to create a discussion NOI to anyone...even though I used BenM's name at the top there I was not singleing him out just that his joke was a handy example (sorry Ben). I have found everybody here to be extremely open minded about stuff and I feel that I have, once again, been lucky in the people that I have encountered.

Alistair


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 05:04 PM

Alistair,

I think you might mean PeteM., as there is no BenM. on the Minch thread. And, I am equally sure Pete, who is a great guy, meant it as a joke. I agree with you, though, that a lot of people might not realize that.

Anyone who has read my comments on the subject knows that I am not xenophobic. I've not seen much evidence of it here on the 'Cat since I've been on, which was in January (not quite continously!). I've seen much discussion on the old songs of Foster and others not being PC and whether folk choose to make them so or not.

I am glad you started this thread, because there have been a couple of things which bothered me, too. When I think of trad music, I think of music of all indigenous cultures, so I guess I think of it more as "world" music which, for me, is something to be honoured and respected.

My husband was raised speakign Canadian French, learned Spanish while working in Venezuela; I took Spanish, German, and Latin in school; my son-in-law is from Antigua and his step-mother in CT speaks St. Martin French. We've lived in neighborhoods where several other languages were spoken. We loved it,our kids loved, and most of all, we loved sharing the trad music of each of those cultures with each other and our friends.

I have found most people on the 'Cat to be very openminded and caring. I think, because it seems to be dominated by those of us in the US, Canada, England, Scotland, and Ireland, we may have a tendency to go on with inside jokes, etc. without making sure what we are talking about is clear to anyone reading,including those to whom English is a second language. Although, I've seen a good amount of Gaelic on here, too, I'm actually trying to learn it now, so I can translate those thread names!

Anyway, thanks for starting this. It will be interesting to see what everyone else has to say. we still love ya', Pete!

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 05:22 PM

whoops Pete...gotta remember that. Thanks Kat. And yes my purpose was to only start a discussion and not 'pick'on anyone...it was just Pete's comments that started the thought off in my head. I agree wholeheartedly with all that you have said. Except the love thing at the end there, well, that's sort of girly, oo gender roles...there's another thread....hmmmmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Bert
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 05:29 PM

When I lived in England one was SUPPOSED to tease people about their origins and their language. It was to make them feel loved and wanted. If they weren't foreign you teased them about what part of England they came from. If they came from London it was which side of the river they lived on. If they came from you neck of the woods you had to torment them about living down the next street. It was just the done thing.

I've not lived in England since the early seventies so perhaps things have changed; but I hope that the PC police have not curtailed this wonderful piece of folk behaviour.

Bert (so if you don't live down our street - Watch Out!!)


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 06:29 PM

I went to England for the first time at 12 years old and was astonished that people said I had an accent and teased me about it. To my mind, accents were something English, Scottish, Irish, and American people had, and a few other people like my relatives in Cape Breton. What's worse, they thought I was an American! I was nearly in tears with indignation.

Canadians, to me, spoke only the purest English as spake by the angels themselves.:)

I remember at about the same time of my life some old holy roller exclaiming, no doubt in reference to some supposed plot by the French Canadians, that if "English was good enough for Jesus and the Apostles to speak and write, it's good enough for me!"


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Bob Landry
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 08:37 PM

Xenophobia ... that's a concept I have a hard time accepting, but I have had to learn to live with the fact it exists. Maybe I remain naive as I'm getting older and should be acquiring the experience and wisdom needed to accept the inequities of the world. Research arising from my recently awakened interest in genealogy revealed to me the rampant xenophobia which led to centuries of linguistic, cultural and religious (among other forms of) persecution and exile foisted on my ancestors, the Acadians of Nova Scotia. I regret the fact that I spent a large part of my early adulthood successfully eradicating all traces of my natural French accent in order to conform. That was an immature gut reaction to peer pressure. None of that was necessary ... Xenophobia is not a virtue ...

See "Un Canadien Errant" in the database. Though written 100 years later by an exiled Quebec revolutionary, this plaintive song could just as easily express the despair of any of the 10,000 people deported from Acadia in 1755 and subsequent years.

Having vented my abhorrence of xenophobia, let me express my opinion that the Mudcat is not, in any way, shape or form, a haven for xenophobes. To the contrary, I've come to see Mudcatters as some of the most generous, sincere and open-minded people I've ever met. I am proud to be part of the Mudcat experience.

Bob Landry


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 10:12 PM

Man am I amazed to see this thread here...thought maybe I was the only one and I hated to admit it. This is so exciting to have others that share my fear. I mean I've watched that Warrior Princess show and she scares the hell out of me. Just one of her fighting mad looks sends me down to the local "Shoot & Scoot" for a big bottle of that Immodium stuff so I don't foul up any more u-trou. Lemme' go back and read what has been written so far....

Oh...Sorry

catspaw

P.S. ... Mandatory catspaw joke is over.

We live in a world and society where the bigotry of the herd instinct becomes paramount. Self-esteem is so important that the easiest attainable positives come from inflicting pain on the minorities. I wrote to someone early on around here that I am rarely offended by anything...except the way we treat each other. Sometimes my greatest fear is that the people who may talk the best line lack the courage of their convictions. Do I fear for my wife and family by taking stands...certainly. But what children do I rear by letting others do my bidding. But we must keep a sense of humor, to quote Lord Byron (George Gordon)...a favorite of mine...

" And if I laugh at any mortal thing, tis that I may not weep."

DO what's right...and to Hell with them!

(soapbox returned to corner)catspaw


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 01:24 AM

Interesting thread.... I would never argue that xenophobia is good, but it does seem to be the natural reaction of most people when they meet something they don't understand -- like a different language or culture. I think differences scare people and when we're scared we react with anger. What we have to do is keep in mind that words are just words, skins are just skins and people are just people. That way, the world isn't so scary and we don't have to build our little mental fortresses and shut everybody out who doesn't think or act exactly as we do.

Enough of that rant.

Tim... Getting set to go to England for a month this fall, so I guess you've warned by about the ribbing I'm likely to take. Funny, but when my very English wife goes with me to the U.S., the comment she gets most often is "I lo-o-o-ve yoah accent." She just smiles and says, with all sincerity, "I love yours too."

See you at the Press Club....

ddw


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: j0_77
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 01:41 AM

Golly gosh - wot a thread - hmmm I used be in the 'i'm a this that or the other' untill looking at the names of my ancestors told me - YOU ARE A HEINZ 57 - variety. Sooo now I always ask not where are you from but where are you going

Hugzzz earthling! hehe


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 04:02 AM

Well, you can say what you like, but English xenophobia is the best in the world!!

Listen very carefully - I will say zis only once: I'm not xenophobic, even about the French! There is a long-standing tradition here that Johnny Foreigner is somehow not quite the thing, and the French in particular have been, historically, our enemies for hundreds of years. I don't share this view at all. I do like to poke fun, however; and I am perfectly happy to be poked fun at. There: end of confession; back to normal.

Catspaw, I have to disagree about the Warrior Princess: any woman who goes around in a leather corset gets my vote!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 05:43 AM

I believe that xenophobia is a learned trait. It is something that is common to some races but not others. The Pacific Islanders when confronted by Bligh and his crew and by Cook, had no fear of these strange men with their funny language and their strangely coloured skin. But they soon learned to hate them. Why? Because we taught them. We made them fear our skin coour, we forced them to try and forget their language and learn ours.

In the western world xenophobia is all around us, passed down from generation to generation ( even in Quebec, when I was there a couple of years ago I felt embarrassed when I spoke english, everybody could see I was an Anglo and so immediately the enemy. And I must admit, I have travelled all over the world and that was the first time I have ever felt like a 'foreigner'in its negative conotation)but is not natural to us, it is cultural baggage.


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 09:24 AM

Steve...Latex might help.

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: MMario
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 10:17 AM

here in the "melting-pot" of the US my father was born of immigrant parents...and was a native Italian speaker until he entered school. He had to have a classmate translate for him until he picked up enough english to get along. However, due to the discrimination against "foreign languages" during his youth (1917 into the 1930's)he did his best to forget his birth tongue...and did NOTHING to teach it to any of his children. This is something we all regret...because we COULD have grown up bilingual, and had something of cultural value to pass on to our own children. Dad says if he was to do it over, that is the one thing he would change about raising his kids.

MMario


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Cara
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 11:09 AM

A good example of cultural misunderstandings, and their lingering effect. Also I challenge you to find another post that contains the word "labiodental".

Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger it would be impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore be incapable of fighting in the future. > > This famous weapon was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew" (or"pluck yew"). Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the defeated French, saying, "See, we can still pluck yew! PLUCK YEW!" Since 'pluck yew' is rather difficult to say, the difficult consonant cluster at the beginning has gradually changed to a labiodental fricative 'F', and thus the words often used in conjunction with the one-finger-salute are mistakenly thought to have something to do with an intimate encounter. It is also because of the pheasant feathers on the arrow used with the longbow that the symbolic gesture is known as "giving the bird".


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 11:28 AM

Pluck Yew! Can't answer that in words, but here is a song that I think says want I to say.


Down on the border

Down on the border, where do you draw that line?
Well here I can lay down my life for a land that will never be mine
If I was standing on the outside, you wouldn't let me in
It might be my religion or the colour of my skin

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

They're telling you life should be rosy, "ain't you living in your own backyard"?
The stakes are getting higher, time to play that nationalist card
That joker's a wild one, eager to get out of the pack
It ain't so easy, trying to get the bastard back

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Does the fruit really taste better, just because it's home grown?
Why should there be an improvement, when we are ruled by one of our own?
When they come and they tell you. it's time to make a stand
Remember the good and the bad apples, growing on your land

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Whatever country claims you, it's no measure of your worth
You can take no credit, it's just an accident of birth
Why not strive for a union, a federation of states?
Sustained by co-operation, where nations are maintained on hate

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Roger Gall 1997


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: j0_77
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 11:35 AM

Ahh the strings of the Yew. It is happy to recall that when tired of the Roman yoke the English threw them out. In this century the Irish tired of the English yoke threw them out. In both instances the sides soon made friends again and became tight as thieves. Wonders if the cycle is starting over again. Ireland now being so like the rest of Britain - many names common in both Islands etc etc etc. Example (Both of these are now in the heavenly choir and both were very good at what they did) Micko Russell (Trad Musician Ireland) Bertrand Russell (Professor Writer Oxford England)


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 11:36 AM

Ok I sympathise with Mario...because my mother is Brazilian and my father forbade her to teach my brother and portuguese because he wouldn't be able to understand( why he couldn't learn it as well was always beyond me). Anyway, we both grew up only knowing english...thankfully, after living here in Brazil for six years I can now talk with my mother in a language other than english.

The PLUCK YEW thing is really clutching at straws...the word FUCK actually comes from the middle english word (I think this is right) FUCH or somesuch (I'm doing this from memory folks so don't hold it against me) which means to fuse together/to combine.


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 11:57 AM

The story that's common over here is that it was the first and second finger the French threatened to cut off, which is why we traditionally wave two fingers. I've heard the theory pooh-poohed on the grounds that you use the second and third fingers to draw a bowstring; I wouldn't know, but just try waving 2 & 3 instead of 1 & 2 and see where you get. And pardon my French(!), but I'm sure the expression the Goddams shouted would have been "Fuck you!".

It's interesting to note, while we're on the subject, that the Western gesture for "OK", forming a ring with the thumb and a finger, means "arsehole" ("asshole") in some Eastern parts. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Pete M
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 04:08 PM

Well as an indirect progenitor I suppose I'd better add something to this thread. there are lots of points so this may be a bit disjointed, so apologies in advance. First, thanks for the support Kat (blush).

Alistair. I'm sure I know what you intended, but lets be quite clear that although it is a normal human reaction to make fun of things that scare us, poking fun at others is not necessarily xenophobic in origin. As Bert and Steve note, poking fun at people as "foreign" as the next street is common in the UK, and you don't have to read many threads to see that it is a common trait here, with no derogatory overtones.

I do have to disagree with you about your examples from the Pacific. It is very difficult to attribute motives for actions several hundred years ago even within ones own culture, and to do so for others is even more fraught. I agree that there is little or no eveidence of xenophobia in its literal meaning in these encounters, but don't make the mistake of thinking that this meant there was no hostility to outsiders whether European or from other Islands. The pre European political groupings in the Pacific (the largest being the Hawaiian archipeligo, and the Tongan inter-archipeligal empire) were created by conquest and "removal" of people who were "different". They and the Maori did not fear European visitors any more than Europeans feared them, because both were confident of their ability to survive any hostility, and of the pre-eminience of their own culture.

Having said all that I do accept that styles of humour are not universal, and that others may have taken my post at face value despite what I thought were fairly heavy hints to the contrary, and if so please accept that they were indeed intended in jest.

Right, soap box back to corner.

Cara, you have got rather mixed up I fear. The extended middle digit is a conmmon Western European insult (obviously phallic in origin). There is some by no means conclusive evidence that the peculiarly English use of the V sign for this purpose derived as you note, but Fuck is good Anglo-Saxon and pre dates Agincourt by a long bow shot.

Anyway Xena is a New Zealander after all, so - if any of you'se guys are interested in old saucepan lids, only worn once, still slightly warm....

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 04:32 PM

BTW...katlaughing ... Forgot to say in my previous post how much I admire your family.

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Bert
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 04:46 PM

I was working in Bahrain and a couple of guys in the office were trying (without success) to teach me Arabic.

One day Hussein said to me "Say 'Fetchek Abd'"
After a few tries I was able to pronounce it and asked him what it meant. He wouldn't tell me and went home.
Well, not to be deterred I asked the only other person around. That was Bilal, a black Bahraini, VERY black, you know, one who gives real meaning to the term 'black is beautiful'. Bilal just rolled over laughing. It means "Go and get fucked by a blackman". Was my face red!!!

Fortunately for me he was a happy little man and not a big mean one, so I'm still alive to tell the story.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 04:52 PM

Does it strike anyone as ironic that the one person who would most likely sort out this "pluck yew" single-finger salute topic- I mean Penny- would not go near this topic with a 10 foot pole?


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 05:43 PM

Catspaw,

Thanks! I'm guessing you mean the hodge-podge of languages, cultures, etc? Me, too!

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 05:51 PM

Hey Group...Some of you may remember the late and great Allen Sherman, the comedian. (Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah, Here I am at Camp Grenada)...a truly hilarious cat. He wrote an incredibly funny book, "The Rape of the A.P.E."...American Puritan Ethic. If you can acquire a copy I guarantee many thought provoking belly laughs. His "Scientific Analysis" of why lies are better than the truth would not be funny were it not true.

HOWEVER...A MUST READ is the chapter named "Short Chapter, Long Footnote." The chapter is one word long...FUCK. The rest is a footnote and some of the best and funniest info you can find about the word. Explanations of euphemisms such as "He slept with her." No one has ever successfully fucked while sleeping. Or "Fornication"...anyone who would use the word fornicate cannot be interested in fucking.

Seriously, you'll bust a gut laughing.

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Pete M
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 06:27 PM

LEJ, the origin of lewd gestures, including the V sign, is discussed by Morris in one of his books (Naked Ape I think). The definitive work on the longbow is Hardy's "The long bow - a social and military history" If there is any foundation to the Agincourt story it should be in there. So far I've not read it, but its near the top of my list.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Penny
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 07:25 PM

How did yew think of little old me? Actually, it so happens that I'm sort of half started on a bit of research on churchyard yews in Britain. Only the government constantly moving the goalposts in teaching is eating up my time, so I haven't got very far. I have read a few yew books though, and some retail the medieval bowman tale about the two fingers. None, however, mention the verbal accompaniment. I think it's probably clutching at straws, too. No help in the Anglo-Saxon dictionary. There are no words between b and d or l and m after either fo or fu of any meaning at all. So sorry, can't sort it out.


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Penny
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 03:03 AM

Correction, I do know my alphabet, but it was late, the computer was not typing what I thought, and I had a phone call while doing this. I meant before l. And it should be almost none. There is a cake called foca.


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 03:43 AM

Penny, let me recommend a little book called Roger's Profanisaurus, which is a compliation by Roger Melly, The Man on the Telly, of all the words and expressions you won't find in the dictionary (even Partridge!). It opened my eyes, I can tell you! Despite the unsavoury nature of the contents, just approach it with a willing suspension of unbelief and you'll find it very entertaining. Impress all your friends!

Steve

P.S. They're in alphabetical order too!


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 04:04 AM

Cara: your story is apocryphal, I'm afraid. The origin of the profanity is the Anglo-Saxon verb 'fukan', which means 'to plough'.

Anyway, I agree with all the Brits on this thread - being Welsh, I know what it is to be gently ribbed about my origins, and know that my ribbers expect to be ribbed in return. It's all phathic communion, as Chomsky said.

However, I can't condone the wearing of white dresses and pointy hoods, or shaving off of hair and wearing Union Flag t-shirts, etc. etc.

I think that anything not intended to cause offence should be taken in the spirit it was intended...


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Banjer
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 06:46 AM

The last line of the previous post is a perfect example of which we speak here. "I think that anything not intended to cause offence should be taken in the spirit it was intended..." It is difficult to know how something I say in jest, not meaning any offense at all, will be interpreted by those hearing my words. Indeed if I say something to two people, one may be offended and the other may see it as a joke.

I do remember one incident in my younger years I will admit to. I was in the Army, stationed in Seoul, Korea in 1969. We had a group of Korean soldiers(KATUSA) that were assigned to our unit. A fun loving group of guys whose command of the English language had vastly improved since their assignment to us. The Seargent in charge of the KATUSA and several of us GI's decided it would be fun to teach some of the new incoming KATUSA some new English which they could use. Several days later when our 1st Sgt and CW2 arrived for the start of the day they were "honored" to be met by the new Koreans troops greeting them with such phrases as "Kiss my a**", "Go to hell", and "Your mother wears combat boots", which they had been taught in our late night lanquage course as meaning Good Morning, How are you, and Is there anything you want me to do for you. The powers that be suspected who was behind it, but were never able to pin the act on anyone so no punishment was meted out. I'm sure the statute of limitation has run out so it is safe to tell this now. ;)


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 08:01 AM

I think if someone invited me to meet him in a bar and he'd buy me a drink, then he didn't turn up, I'd be offended enough to tell him to go and plough something. However, most Welsh people I've met have been generous and forgiving, and they'd probably invite me for a drink in return (I'd get the first one in).

Obscurely, Steve


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 08:41 AM

PeteM: Ok just to set the record straight, I wasn't pinning anything on you...I certainly realised that what you said was exteremely tongue in cheek and I think I did mention that in my initial posting. You remarks just got me to thinking and I thought this might have made ( and I think I've been proved correct)and interesting subject. I'm sorry if you thought I was picking on you, I humbly apologise and will go and flog myself immediately (Whilst watching videos of Xena).


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 10:45 AM

Oops again, sorry Steve, I hear you. Cellar Bar on Monday OK?

Yours snowed-underly,

Dai P.


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 10:56 AM

I'll be there, Dai! Any other 'Catters will be welcome too, but if you don't know where it is you're too far away to get there ...

Steve


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Neil Lowe (inactive)
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 11:43 AM

First off, 'Xenophobia' threw me for a loop and I definitely had to look that up before continuing....then let's see...since reading this thread I have come across...ummm....'laboidental'.....'fricative' (immediately after I was trying to recuperate from 'labiodental',no less)....and 'phathic'(phatic?)....

Not to mention the theoretical origins of a commonly used vulgarity......brief history of French and English conflict hundreds of years ago....

So that's English, History, and Etymology....all from a thread about xenophobia. My dictionary is really getting a workout today. I'm glad I took my vitamins. I'm not sure I've had all the prerequisites for this course, but I'll stick it out for the enlightenment nonetheless. Eyes and ears open, mouth shut.

Regards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Zena Fobic
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 01:12 PM

How many long time Mudcatters feel towards newcomers with bad threadiquette


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Bert
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 01:30 PM

Thanks Zena.

I love your name!! (and also your namesake, but we won't talk about that)


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 19 Mar 99 - 11:00 AM

Refresh *hehehehe*


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Cara
Date: 19 Mar 99 - 02:25 PM

Oh my. I didn't believe the pluck yew thing--I got it as a joke over email right after I first read this thread and I thouhgt it would speak to cross cultural misunderstandings (again, tongue in cheek). With all of the discussion of the gesture and the etymology of the "F" word my post has engendered, I can't believe no one has hit upon the obvious root of the word: The King of England ordered his subjects to replenish the population after the plague years, and the act of doing so was expressed like this: Fornicate Under Command of the King, or in its abbreviated form, F.U.C.K. I thought everyone knew that.

(Again, TIC-{tongue in cheek})!!!!


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Banjer
Date: 19 Mar 99 - 06:58 PM

Good thing it was a king and not a queen in power, how would one pronounce fucq?


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: LEJ
Date: 19 Mar 99 - 07:32 PM

I always heard that FUCK was printed on the stocks where the criminal perpetrators of such sins of the flesh were locked up and displayed. Stood for "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge", which by the way was also the title of a Van Halen LP. Apparently those who had done this deed were pelted with stones and rotten vegetables by those who were not getting any. Of course, if you have ever been in the not-getting-any situation for very long, you probably felt like throwing a few rotten potatoes yourself...LEJ


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 03:47 AM

This is beginning to sound like the derivation of the Aussie word "Pom[mie]" for an Brit, or (and excuse the indelicacy) the UK word "wog", originally meaning an Egyptian, but now a derogatory word for anyone evem vaguely Indian. I modestly leave the floor open for other know-alls.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 04:56 AM

Actually WOG is used for antone with a darker than white complexion and I have it on good authority that it came from the acronym Western Oriental Gentleman.


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 05:03 AM

Being of some Italian lineage, the word WOP dbviously comes to mind. Originally coming from WithOut Papers, it is an example of how a word may start out as a joke, to mildly derogatory to extremely derogatory to "Use Only To Start Immediate Fight!" Realizing how intense the feelings are that the word evoked by the 40's, ot's hard to believe that during World War I, there was a minor song hit titled, "When Tony Goes Over the Top," with the second line being, "Keep(a) you're eyes on, that fighting Wop."

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 07:02 AM

While looking out songs to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the start(!) and later the end of WWII, we came across a once-fashionable anti-Axis song entitled "The Wop and the Jap and the Hun" (apologies - NOI now!), which would probably get you arrested if you sang it in the UK now (not to mention Italy, Japan and Germany).

Steve


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 07:05 AM

I've usually only heard those terms used in describing the actions and sounds of flat tires.....You know, when the air goes away, daygo wop, wop, wop.....(TIC, NOI, *BG*, etc.) Which brings to mind a story.....I can hear the groans already....Son says to Dad, Poppa, can I have a Ginuea Pig?.....Poppa replies, Aw Son, why not find yourself a nice Irish girl? AGAIN REMEMBER TIC, NOI, *BG*


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Ferrara
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 08:53 AM

catspaw, mmario, and all other Italians reading this thread, my dad said that when he came to this country (around 1921, I think), he and the other Neapolitan boys would address each other as "O guappo," pronounced "Oh WOP-oh". It's a Neapolitan expression meaning neat, cool, you're looking good. It's still used to some extent. It was a common greeting, "Eh, guappo!" that they would call to each other. But the American kids picked up on it and called them wops so they stopped doing it.

I'm convinced this is a likely origin for the expression "wop." (If you have information to the contrary, please don't try to confuse me with facts. :-)) I would imagine the same scenario taking place in New York, New Jersey, Chicago and other heavy centers of italian immigration.

My mom (from Georgia) said when she married my dad, one of her mother's friends stopped speaking to her because she had married an Italian. I later met a man who said his sister was cut by many of her friends when she married an Italian. It was considered an interracial marriage by many people in those days.

My dad was twelve when he came here, mmario, and he spoke no English so they put him in kindergarten, where he was "surrounded by a bunch of little five year old kids who were so dumb they couldn't even speak Italian."


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 08:59 AM

My father was( maybe stil is) vehemently anti-irish, and vocal about it too. Until I pointed out to him that his grandfather came from Belfast. And I come from a town in the UK that has got a high immigrant population, notably asian ( our asian, not the american sino-asian asian...erm...if you see what I mean...any way indian, kashmiri, pakistani.) and there were those Indians who had become "anglicised" and would use the racist terminology of the whites to talk about non-anglicised asians. MAn talk about Uncle Tom.


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Neil Lowe (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 09:04 AM

In Panama, a man on the street says "guappa" to a woman who catches his fancy as she passes by- the equivalent of the American "wolf whistle."


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Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 09:08 AM

"Guappa" is Spanish for "pretty", but my mate's dad, who speaks several languages, says the Spanish (in Spain, at any rate) use it the way we say "Phoarr!!" in Britain. I don't actually know the US English.

Steve


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