Xenophobia

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 25 Mar 99 - 12:42 PM

hmmmmm...

catspaw me old hick china :o). Liked the comments. Ok the United States is as much a mixture as Brazil or vice versa. The diversity of races here is always an amazement to me. What I was trying to say was that from the start the people of Brazil agreed unanimously that they wanted their own identity, not italian, not portuguese (the only portuguese that do are the angolan refugees that came to brazil rather than go back to Portugal. They seem to be even more rabidly patriotic towards portugal than the portuguese themselves. No one here calls themselves 'afro-brasileiro' or 'italiano-brasileiro', they are simply 'brasileiro' and also on a wider scale 'Americanos'. Yes , therre are problems here, big problems. after years of being bled dry by unscrupulous politicians and industrialists, we are now struggling to make things fairer. Yes, there is racialism here, of course there is, but not xenophobic, it is classist racism. Who was it that said one 'drop of blood makes you black.'? Well that doesn't apply here, racism is used as a tool to criticise and keep down the lower classes, and used by people that come from a mixed background. So I do believe that there are two types, distinctly different, of prejudice. One is Xenophobia and, as Sean quite rightly pointed out, that one doesn't rely on skin colour. then there is racism which does and is a hatred for those who haven't got the same skin tone as you.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Mar 99 - 07:57 AM

To start with the most important issue: catspaw, I read your opening sentences exactly the way you didn't intend them. I laughed like crazy, thinking, oh, lord, somebody's gonna call him on that but it ain't gonna be me!

kat, and all, yes, yes, yes, let's authorize a book and, kat, dear, will you allow yourself to be nominated as a candidate for its author? I hereby so nominate you. Who wants to start a new thread so we can all argue this idea into oblivion or glory? (I'm sorry, katlaughing is too many keystrokes, and furthermore I have to spell it out as I type it. If you'd prefer not to have your name abbreviated, though, I'll make the sacrifice.)

Some years back the local folk music DJ, Mary Cliff, put together a Christmas program from singing done at the Folklore Society's Christmas party. She phoned each person the day before the show was to air, asking their permission to use their singing in the show. It seems to me this would be a good approach to use with the book. A two-pronged approach would work. First, anyone who has strong feeling about wanting to be excluded, or willingness to be included, can e-mail the designated author up front. Second, the D.A. can check with anyone he or she would like to include in the book who hasn't already stated their preference.

Money is a separate issue. One alternative is an arrangement where the first x dollars go to support Mudcat. Period. Then, if the thing actually makes some real profit (say, more than $300.00 *smile*), figure out a way for some of that profit to go to the people whose words were used. Maybe. That could be an administrative nightmare. How do you apportion royalties? Based on the number of posts? The number of words per post? The number of contentious responses to the post?

As far as profiting from the book, maybe we should be content to have a bio, with booking info etc, for each contributor. That can be done once and not drive some poor accountant crazy. If we start a book thread I'm sure hundreds of ideas will be proposed and argued and twisted and I can already start imagining the condom jokes. But let's do it! - Start the thread, I mean.

Sean, your post was the last one so I'm responding last, to tell you that I agree with you, xenophobia is not just a result of cultural influences and upbringing. Even chimpanzees, who are pretty harmonious in their own band, will go on murderous forays upon bands that border their territory.

Still, not everyone has the killer instinct, but everyone has the instinct to follow the crowd. Young people whose intolerance is a result of following the crowd can be reached. There is a group in this country whose motto is "Teach Tolerance," and that is what they do. They prepare teaching materials which they distribute without charge to elementary through high schools. Often intolerance is just a result of never having thought about what you're doing. And, Sean, there's an example of the human race having evolved a bit: Two thousand years ago, I'm pretty sure, in most parts of the world a course on teaching tolerance would have struck a chord in a lot fewer hearts.

In many parts of the world there's no longer the same survival value in xenophobic feelings that there was even 500 or 600 years ago. Do you see what I'm getting at? If the neighboring peoples are hostile, xenophobia is a survival trait. Trusting, open people get killed or stolen as slaves. The instincively suspicious ones have a real survival edge. Then their progeny are also likely to be instinctively xenophobic. But. In certain parts of the world this hasn't been as true for centuries, and I believe that it leads to milder-natured people.

Recently I found a book that took place in Czechoslovakia during WW II. The author made the comment that the Nazis were using Czechoslovakia as a door to Yugoslavia, but they wouldn't have it easy there, because the Serbs were true fighters. It was so sad to me. The very quality that made the Serbs heroes in WW II is making them villains now. The instinct to fight fiercely is neutral, neither good nor bad, unless you can't turn it off. Then it's bad. If no one is attacking you, or keeping you subjugated, you attack someone.

Well this doesn't solve anything but I think it explains some things. Sean, you pushed one of my buttons. I'm fascinated by the way that various survival needs may have helped the world become the way it is. The way I see it, certain problems can't be solved, human nature being the way it is; but it's the duty of every thinking person who sees the problems, to keep up the fight. You can make improvements, you can fix some things. You just can't fix it all.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Sean MacRuaraidh
Date: 25 Mar 99 - 06:51 AM

What is unnatural about putting your own nation/tribe/family before others. Wasn't this always the way ? To say Xenophobia is about skin colour is an over simplification. Xenophobia is as much about cultural differences and power struggle - hence the problems today in places such as the Balkans and Northern Ireland.

I think it is acceptable to admit that Xenophobic tendencies exist naturally but I do not think that it is clever or pretty to indulge in abuse when it is uncessary.

We may all be part of the new 'cross culturalised' world society because of the internet, tv, radio, cheap communications, gene pool mixing, education and travel but I don't believe for an instance that such a state of mind is sufficient to allow one to say 'I am totally accepting of all other cultures and races'. To believe this is to believe that you have lost your tribal protection instincts - how fast do you think the human psychology evolves (actually there is no evidence that I know of to suggest that it has evolved at all ) ?

Todays tribes are created by the employers (paymasters)and our allegiance is to them. This of course gives us the room to drop our other Xenophobic attitudes as the arena of competition for resources has shifted from other tribes to other companies.

Are we all sitting in ivory towers, comfortably warm sitting at our keyboards; human nature - does it really change ?

Sean MacRuaraidh

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Mar 99 - 05:03 AM

Amen, Mick! My son's been brought up in a multi-cultural and multi-denominational background. He had an argument with a sixty-year-old racist (a neighbour's relative) when he was ten. I expected it to end in tears (mine and the neighbours'!), but he held his own with no bother, common sense beating bigotry. If only real life was like that! My daughter plans to out-shoe Imelda Marcos, but that's the only right-wing tendency she has. I worry for my children, but they make me confident.

When I saw the words "Irish Gentleman" a few posts back, I admit I was tempted to think a wicked thought; but all the Irishmen I've met have been gentlemen (and I have my suspicions about a couple of the women too!). An Irishman's an Irishman, whether he comes from Brummagem or America - be proud!

It saddens me to admit it, but it's mostly the fault of the English that there are so many Irish and Scots abroad. Guerres Sans FrontiŠres was always our national sport, not Germany's. When it comes to going into other poeples' countries and knocking seven bells out of 'em, we're the boys for the job.

Still, I can't stop making jokes; and if they make others smile, the world is a slightly better place for it. The only trouble with making a joke of something unpleasant is that it doesn't solve the problem: it only stops you doing something about it. A good way to handle a situation with no hope, but a bad way to deal with evil. Let's laugh at each others' jokes, but never forget about Truth, Justice and the [insert name of country] way.

Oh dear, philosophy - and I haven't had a drop since yesterday!

Steve

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Mar 99 - 10:51 AM

I have followed this thread with interest since the beginning. Alistair, you are to be commended for starting it, and I found your posts to be well thought out, sincere and, for the most part, right on the mark. Well, at least as far as they can be coming from an Englishman, he said with tongue planted firmly in cheek. As badly as I wanted to contribute, I found that between yourself, Katlaughing, Catspaw, MMario, Steve P and all that it was not necessary for me to contribute. You are an amazing bunch. And I was very happy to see Bob Landry contribute the plight of the Acadians.

So instead of going over old ground, let me talk of the future. The problem is that so much of this has to do with how we are raised to fear or mistrust that which is different. As most of you know from reading other posts of mine, that I believe it is the nurturing of this which causes the generals to be able to send us to war against one another. The ability to turn us against one another, to make the different something to be feared is at the root of most of the major problems in the world today. I fell prey to it at a younger age. It was on one of my periodic disappearances into the woods that I figured out the next step. From time to time I have the need to get away and sit and figure things out. Nothing mystical here......it is just easier to hear the eternal when you are sitting under the stars and pondering God's best work. You can look around and be amazed at how it all fits together like a perfect puzzle. And you can look at the vastness of it and realize that you are part of that puzzle. I had developed a deep revulsion for racism, dehumanization, ignoring problems because they weren't "our" problems and so on. But I wondered what it was that I could do. And as I am watching the natural world and lost in my thoughts, I start to see the birds with their young, saw a fox with a kit, and so on. And it came to me that the answer lies with our children. That we canna make a massive change and solve it. But I can raise children that are sensitive to others. Instead of being fearful or uncomfortable about that which is different, I can teach them to be curious about it. I can teach them to celebrate that which is different about us all, and to worship that which we have in common. I can teach them not to follow the herd when it is headed in the wrong direction. I can teach them NOT to be silent, when the ancient voice of their people speaks to them from inside, and warns them of the injustice they see. Some people refer to this as conscience or intuition. I prefer to see it as the voice of all that have gone before trying to give us the benefit of their experiences. If one will peel off the pretexts that we find ourselves sheathed in, and try to see each encounter in its purest terms, perhaps a little at a time, we can erase our fear of that which is "foreign". Perhaps we can realize that nothing, and no one, is truly foreign. Just different...................And that is marvellous, another of God's best works.

KatlaughingYou are among the best among us. I love your insights, and your obvious love of life. I read your posts and realize that you are probably exactly what I refer to. My guess is that you have raised marvelous children who share your love of life. And it seems that your hubby knows what a 'pearl of great worth' he has in you. And you probably also drive him nuts.***belly laugh***

Catspaw, you dago, you. You are right on the mark with your comments. So much of this revolves around what you mean, as opposed to what you say. What one is, speaks much louder than what one says he/she is. I found nothing offensive in your comment, in fact I took it as a term of friendship. And we certainly have become friends. You have become an essential piece of this community.To all of the rest, thanks for being a part of this thread. It is the Mudcat at its best. Kat, this thread should be a part of the book. It could serve as a primer of what is right in this little hunk of sod that we all live on.

All the best to all of you,

Mick

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Bert
Date: 24 Mar 99 - 10:41 AM

Dick,

Folklore in England gives a different origin for the term 'WOG'.

It is said to originate from the British Forces in Egypt in WWII. To discourage soldiers referring to the Egyptians as 'sand niggers' or 'ragheads' the army decreed they would henceforth ONLY be referred to as 'Worthy Oriental Gentlemen'

Isn't folklore wonderful?

Bert.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 99 - 10:28 AM

I can always count on you for a laugh, Catspaw! Never read it that way, so my arsehole is intact! katl

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Mar 99 - 05:26 AM

I woke up, always a better option than not waking up, a bit bothered by something in my last post. After reading it again, I decided it was okay, but I'm glad I did read it again. Specifically the opening two sentences!!

katlaughing and Night Owl...It is always nice to get your comments...NOT your ASSHOLES. I really don't know what I'd do with your assholes if I had them so please don't send them.

Now I'm unbothered by the thing that was bothering me and I now have saved myself the embarassment of facing the FedEx person and saying, "There's gotta' be a mistake. I know I didn't order any assholes."

Maybe I can catch a few more Z's.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Mar 99 - 12:14 AM

Thanks to all for your comments...wasn't meant to evoke anything...just an opinion,much like an asshole. Always nice to get yours kat...and Night Owl too.

BTW...Richard Pryor simply meant that he'd never been anywhere that being black was the norm. Very different for him and made him think about the dignity of his race.

Alistair, your comments are the subject matter of books and thesis papers and they'll be the text for countless more. The United States is unlike anywhere else. Certainly not better though often more arrogant. We can't be compared to anywhere else since no one else is as mixed a bag as this place. We have no long standing traditions as we have no long standing. So in that human need for roots, we are far more prone than most to describe ourselves as *******-Americans. This has led to much infighting over the years as ancestral hatreds have overcome pride of heritage. You asked why that was so important. You can list history back thousands of years...we are only good for two hundred. It's a matter of roots. AND we are the most impatient country...but things move very fast...which sometimes is beneficial and sometimes disastrous. But if you do it twice, it's a tradition. The Brazilian comparison is entertaining, but before I got too far along with it I think a stop at the WorldBank might be in order. Also I can take you places right now where grandmothers call their 10 year old grandchildren saying, "Come here you lil motherfucker,"...and no, they're not black. No need to wait a hundred years here. Like I said, it's an impatient place.

Alistair, there is no way that I can justify many things that go on here, nor in some cases, would I if I could. I'm just a plain old country hick and I can only report things as they are. But like Bobby K., I like to envision and work toward what could be and say why not?

catspaw

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 03:11 PM

NightOwl,

The sleepless thing must be going around. I got up at 430a because i just couldn't turn over and fall back asleep! AND, there IS no known antidote for Mudcat addiction, the only thing that ever works is going cold turkey! And, that only works if you want to! Ain't for me!

Trashdumping, ugh...chores, ugh...

As to the book. I don't think a name is as important, right now, as deciding how to choose what to include and who all will do the choosing, etc.

I think it would be doable, with Max's permission and a signed waiver from anyone who wanted their writings to be considered. If folks don't want in it, that is their right. Also, though it would cost a bit more, do people want their photos in it? And, do we want to include a listing of everyone's bands, businesses etc? Do we want to sell ads to Elderly & the rest as a way to finance it? THESE ARE JUST THOUGHTS, FOLKS, THAT'S ALL. I am just throwing ideas out here for brainstorming.

So: yes, Max, is it legal?

Do Mudcatters want this and, if so, will they give peremission for use of their material? Would the proceeds be divided among each with the largest percentage going to the Mudcat or what?

I still would be interestd to know if we could apply for any grants. This is new territory...we are breaking new ground!

Thanks,

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Night Owl
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 02:50 PM

katlaughing: obviously, I shouldn't be up at this time of day..sorry about the name last night. I posted a new thread, took a nap..(ie-tried to really sleep and couldn't)overanxious for feedback on the other thread. WHAT IS THE ANTIDOTE for reading these threads and being unable to stay away from the SUBMIT button on the computor??????????? I have the day off today and am SUPPOSED to be taking trash to the dump and other errands!RE: the book....step 1: Max is it legally doable? step 2: another thread to suggest names for it (ouch). Didn't at all mean to be exclusive to Catspaw...just still laughing at something s/he posted.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 01:45 PM

NIGHT Owl:

What are you doing up this time of day? And, I take it/I hope you meant (like most cats, I crave attention!:-) "Katlaughing" at the beginning of your last message? If so, thank you very much for your compliments. And, yes Catspaw could write an intro, so could Big Mick, and a few others!

My tongue might've been in my cheek, but I was fairly serious about the book, too. I've been thinking about it for a couple of weeks now, everytime I print something off to save, cause it's just too good to get lost in the threads! Almost posted a thead about it the other day. A kind of "Best of the Mudcat: A Folkie CyberCommunity" or "Wisdom of the Mudcat" or, "Wisdom, Humour, Thoughts, and How to Rule the World from the Mudcat*" *with assorted remedies and advice on condom usage"***grin***

My mind was pretty occupied with this last night. I was thinking maybe everyone could post their favourites into one thread or email them to me or you or whoever, then we could categorize them, then do some editing (just frivolous, non-essentials), then joila!

Because it would take up an enormous amount of time, even if all of us pick out our favourites, or if just a few of us make suggestions, or whatever, I was even wondering if there might be a social science grant or something out there we could apply for, as it really would be a new "study" thingy - "a microcosmic distillation of a true and distinct community in cyberland" Ooooo! I'm hummin' now!

I've only been on here since January and have already filled a one inch ring binder of some real gems. Plus I've sent off several packets to my dad, each at least an inch thick.

While I am not independently wealthy, I do have a very supportive hubby, who nonetheless, is really, really happy when I DO make some kind of money from my writing/editing/jewelery-making, so....if we could find grant money or something....anybody out there have experience at grant-writing?

Seriously, but still laughinglyKat p.s. names COULD be changed to protect the innocent...not us! Our families!

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Night Owl
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 12:46 PM

katspaw, my previous post about a book was not entirely tongue in cheek...I love your humor and writing.....think about it...I can do the "grunt" work, you do the creating........Catspaw can do the title and intro!(CRINGE)

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 07:01 AM

Night Owl: this is the second time I've typed this in. The first time my cat's butt hit the clear entries button! You must have been reading my mind. I have been thinking about how great it wouldbe to put together a book of the best of the 'Cat, with everyone's permission, etc., of course. It wold take a lot of time etc., but I think it would be neat and most fof the profits would go to the Mudcat. How 'bout it Max?

AlastairUK: Whiel agree with your suggestion that the power of words will dissipate through disapproval of their use, I don't think Catspaw meant we should go around and use them will he-nill he. Your example was amusing and brought a hearty guffaw, BUT it will be a cold day in hell before I would ever use that language with my grandsons when they are grown up or not and I know their parents feel the same!

I do use salty, bawdy language and tell risque jokes like Banjer mentions, among certain friends and family, although I have found myself telling people when I think a story or joke crosses the line into offensiveness re' women, racial, or whatever. My only problem about letting words die out is m'slef. How do you change the stripes on a "salty dawg" Kat? (Am I a mass of contradictions or what!?)

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 06:54 AM

Actually i think that heritage in a new land is one of the roots of the problem. Here in Brazil you have an enormous mix of Portuguese, dutch, french, german, black,native, italian, japonese, hungarian, polish, spanish and even english. But here the heritage is in the background it's not a big aprt of society as it is in the United States. There are no little italies and the only races that do tend to keep there own little colonies are the germans and the poles and the japonese to a certain extent. But the culture of BRAZIL is wholely its own. Its music is Brazilian music, its literature is Brazilian literature.

Although racism does exist here, for a country that is built along similarly diverse nationalities as the U.S. it has a considerably lot less than the aforementioned.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Banjer
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 06:43 AM

Damn, You people are a hard act to follow...It appears all has been said, and how nicely! I believe we are witnessing an ongoing evolution of our spoken lanquage. I would not bring home some of the jokes that went around the workplace and share them with the wife because of the risque and bawdy double entendres and colorful lanquage in some of them. Not that long ago SHE broke the ice by telling me and one of our kids, (he is the youngest and 25 yrs old, and I'm sure has heard much worse) a joke she had heard at her work place. She explained that it would lose meaning if she changed it. Since then we have both "lightened up" a little in our self-censorship. Many examples come to mind of the evolution of the meaning of words. Did you ever think what mental pictures youngsters of today think as they sing the words of the Christmas carol "Deck the Halls"? Don we now our GAY apparel? (I ain't putting them clothes on!!) Or how about when father tells son to "go get me a faggot"?(Meaning of course to go fetch a bundle of sticks?)Just two examples that jump to mind from questions raised by my own kids when they were growing up! AlistairUK raises a question about Catspaws saying that Richard Pryor had seen Black people "in their own land" and asking is the United States not their own land as well? I would answer that NO, the United States is NOT THEIR own land, it is EVERYBODY'S land. We are all AMERICANS and all have an equal interest here regardless of our origins. This is not to say that we all should forget where we came from, it is important to retain our individuality and heritage and blend it in to the overall scheme of things. That is what makes this great melting pot work. Isn't that how much of our beloved folk music got started? Ah, but I tend to ramble......

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 05:43 AM

Catspaw: Wish I was as eloquent as you, but here goes. You said a number of very fine things and I strongly agree with all of them. But, as NightOwl pointed out above in her(?)comment about Katlaughing and books, words have power. Words and expressions have a power to move, just as yours did cat, and they are a very, very strong weapon. There are two ways that we can deal with these words, the words like WOP, Nigger, Coon ,Dago, Frog, Jungle Bunny, Nightfighter (these are extremely powerful words, you say one of these to someone and see what the reaction would be). We can say them all the time and in time they would lose there power. This can be illustrated by swear words such as 'bugger' and 'bloody', words that at one time were shocking, but with use have now become less so. As is 'fuck' getting that way, repeated overuse and American movies are sort of taking away the power to shock. I can see in 100 years your maiden aunt coming round to tea and her greeting you:

"Ooo you handsome motherfucker, I haven't seen you in a goddamned motherfucking age."

to whit you reply:

"Come in in you motherfucker and take your motherfucking sonofabitch coat off."

humm so we can go around using these words all the time and they would lose their power?

No, I don't think so. but the slow censorship of these words and the fostering of an attitude that makes these words repugnant to use so they are slowly forgotten is the best option.

another thing, you said that Richard Pryor stoped using 'nigger' after "...he had seen black people in their own land." Is the United States not their own land as well?

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Night Owl
Date: 23 Mar 99 - 12:58 AM

Catspaw, BRAVO! Well said! Maybe when Katlaughing is done with her book, she can pull together the eloquence in some of these threads into her next book. I trust an appropriate title for the book could be found.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 11:19 PM

WELL PUT, Catspaw! InsightFULL, thoughFULL, and eloquent...that's what I love about the 'Cat!

And...you can get out of the litterbox now. Good kitty!

luv ya all! katlaughing

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 11:19 PM

WOG, reportedly, was stencilled on POW clothes and stood for Ward Of (the) Government.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 10:22 PM

Wop does mean WithOut Papers as I pointed out earlier though I do like Ferraras explanation. My grandfather was a wop and I carry the Ellis Island name change to prove it! But more interesting than that is the phenomenon of each group's ability to cut on itself in derogatory terms and laugh about it...but let an outsider say it and the fight is on.

I remember a new restaurant being built in town and no one knew what it was going to be. After several months a sign went up and as we drove past my Dad said, "Aw, Christ (pronounced KEE-RICED), another Dago place to eat!" He was personally hoping for a good Chophouse. After his trip to Africa, Richard Pryor quit using "nigger" in his act...he had seen black people in their own land. It is most important that we know who we are and not what we are called and to take away the power of the words, most powerful as they may be. Perhaps that's why we use them inside the group.

We sometimes go outside the group with friends, but it is always risky. But we do need to develop insights and relationships that eclipse the words and render them powerless. Sometimes the previously derogatory becomes respectful. I had some brief passing thought of this when I referred to Big Mick as a big Mick. It's a funny relationship we build here in cyberspace. I felt I knew Mick well enough, and I credit him with the intelligence and insight needed, to see, without abbreviations or icons, that I meant no harm. I'm sure he too had a passing moment as I did, before he went on saying, "It's just catspaw." I'll take a chance again and go one step further...I think Mick is an erudite, caring, intelligent man and may well have seen the line as a mark of respect...I think he has enough astute insight into ME that he knows I see much more in him than ancestry. He may be an Irishman trapped in an American body, but the person that is the real Mick stands above any label we might attach.

Somehow, sometime, someway...we have got to defuse the words and see beyond language, the dialect, the color. It would be easier sometimes to do that if we all didn't think of ourselves in those terms as well. There is a fine line between the pride of heritage and the anger of bigotry.

At one point or another Mick and I will meet outside of this "village" and when we do I think we'll both be comfortable enough for me to say, "Damn! You really are a big Mick!" To which he can respond, "Geez, a downhome Dago in the flesh!" Then maybe we can do a little Dylan as a compromise.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 06:03 PM

Well put Kat, It is what is inside a person that makes them what they are, not the color on the outside! Discussions like this always remind me of a perfect example that occured when I was in the service. We were sitting around the day room listening to an LP one of the guys was playing. It had on it songs such as "Is Anybody Going To San Antone", "You've Got To Kiss An Angel Good Morning", and a real nice gospel number called "Did You Think To Pray". I enjoyed the songs and when I asked to see the album cover I was amazed to learn that Charlie Pride was a black man. That lesson still sticks with me after 30 years! It taught me to look at things in a whole new light.

Ref: the term WOP. I had always heard that it meant, as someone pointed out earlier, With Out Papers. Those whose passports or other credentials were in order could pass on through the process, while those that had no proper paperwork were detained for processing in a seperate area.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 10:12 AM

I was always told that "Wops" came from the south of Italy and "Dagos" from the North (NOI!!!!) or vice versa, can't remember. This was used to explain to me why mom and dad's very good friends were Italian, yet blonde!

The only real prejudice I feel I grew up with was towards sheepherders, esp. Mormon ones, because of a dispute my cattle ranching greatgrandfather had with them.He killed one in self-defense in a shootout, they tried to get the court to hang him until the widow came forward and testified that it was the best thing anyone had ever done for her. Her son became my grandad's best friend. (this original material is one of dad's many stories which will be in a book I am working on.)

When people ask my daughter if her husband is black (when they see her twin baby boys, who are mixed) she says, "He is Antiguan". To her, and the rest of us, there is no colour; as she puts it, "We are all of the human race".

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Ferrara
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 09:20 AM

Sorry, I think I spelled it wrong. The Italian spelling is "Guapo," I suspect. I have a set of 19th century costume sketches from Naples that I bought when I was visiting family there in the late 60's. One of the sketches is of a young man all dressed up for a promenade around the village square and it's labeled "'O Guapo." 'O is Neapolitan slang for il, lo or the. None of this has anything in particular to do with xenophobia, as you can see.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 09:08 AM

"Guappa" is Spanish for "pretty", but my mate's dad, who speaks several languages, says the Spanish (in Spain, at any rate) use it the way we say "Phoarr!!" in Britain. I don't actually know the US English.

Steve

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Neil Lowe (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 09:04 AM

In Panama, a man on the street says "guappa" to a woman who catches his fancy as she passes by- the equivalent of the American "wolf whistle."

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 08:59 AM

My father was( maybe stil is) vehemently anti-irish, and vocal about it too. Until I pointed out to him that his grandfather came from Belfast. And I come from a town in the UK that has got a high immigrant population, notably asian ( our asian, not the american sino-asian asian...erm...if you see what I mean...any way indian, kashmiri, pakistani.) and there were those Indians who had become "anglicised" and would use the racist terminology of the whites to talk about non-anglicised asians. MAn talk about Uncle Tom.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Ferrara
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 08:53 AM

catspaw, mmario, and all other Italians reading this thread, my dad said that when he came to this country (around 1921, I think), he and the other Neapolitan boys would address each other as "O guappo," pronounced "Oh WOP-oh". It's a Neapolitan expression meaning neat, cool, you're looking good. It's still used to some extent. It was a common greeting, "Eh, guappo!" that they would call to each other. But the American kids picked up on it and called them wops so they stopped doing it.

I'm convinced this is a likely origin for the expression "wop." (If you have information to the contrary, please don't try to confuse me with facts. :-)) I would imagine the same scenario taking place in New York, New Jersey, Chicago and other heavy centers of italian immigration.

My mom (from Georgia) said when she married my dad, one of her mother's friends stopped speaking to her because she had married an Italian. I later met a man who said his sister was cut by many of her friends when she married an Italian. It was considered an interracial marriage by many people in those days.

My dad was twelve when he came here, mmario, and he spoke no English so they put him in kindergarten, where he was "surrounded by a bunch of little five year old kids who were so dumb they couldn't even speak Italian."

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 07:05 AM

I've usually only heard those terms used in describing the actions and sounds of flat tires.....You know, when the air goes away, daygo wop, wop, wop.....(TIC, NOI, *BG*, etc.) Which brings to mind a story.....I can hear the groans already....Son says to Dad, Poppa, can I have a Ginuea Pig?.....Poppa replies, Aw Son, why not find yourself a nice Irish girl? AGAIN REMEMBER TIC, NOI, *BG*

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 07:02 AM

While looking out songs to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the start(!) and later the end of WWII, we came across a once-fashionable anti-Axis song entitled "The Wop and the Jap and the Hun" (apologies - NOI now!), which would probably get you arrested if you sang it in the UK now (not to mention Italy, Japan and Germany).

Steve

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 05:03 AM

Being of some Italian lineage, the word WOP dbviously comes to mind. Originally coming from WithOut Papers, it is an example of how a word may start out as a joke, to mildly derogatory to extremely derogatory to "Use Only To Start Immediate Fight!" Realizing how intense the feelings are that the word evoked by the 40's, ot's hard to believe that during World War I, there was a minor song hit titled, "When Tony Goes Over the Top," with the second line being, "Keep(a) you're eyes on, that fighting Wop."

catspaw

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 04:56 AM

Actually WOG is used for antone with a darker than white complexion and I have it on good authority that it came from the acronym Western Oriental Gentleman.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Mar 99 - 03:47 AM

This is beginning to sound like the derivation of the Aussie word "Pom[mie]" for an Brit, or (and excuse the indelicacy) the UK word "wog", originally meaning an Egyptian, but now a derogatory word for anyone evem vaguely Indian. I modestly leave the floor open for other know-alls.

Steve

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: LEJ
Date: 19 Mar 99 - 07:32 PM

I always heard that FUCK was printed on the stocks where the criminal perpetrators of such sins of the flesh were locked up and displayed. Stood for "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge", which by the way was also the title of a Van Halen LP. Apparently those who had done this deed were pelted with stones and rotten vegetables by those who were not getting any. Of course, if you have ever been in the not-getting-any situation for very long, you probably felt like throwing a few rotten potatoes yourself...LEJ

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Banjer
Date: 19 Mar 99 - 06:58 PM

Good thing it was a king and not a queen in power, how would one pronounce fucq?

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Cara
Date: 19 Mar 99 - 02:25 PM

Oh my. I didn't believe the pluck yew thing--I got it as a joke over email right after I first read this thread and I thouhgt it would speak to cross cultural misunderstandings (again, tongue in cheek). With all of the discussion of the gesture and the etymology of the "F" word my post has engendered, I can't believe no one has hit upon the obvious root of the word: The King of England ordered his subjects to replenish the population after the plague years, and the act of doing so was expressed like this: Fornicate Under Command of the King, or in its abbreviated form, F.U.C.K. I thought everyone knew that.

(Again, TIC-{tongue in cheek})!!!!

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 19 Mar 99 - 11:00 AM

Refresh *hehehehe*

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Bert
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 01:30 PM

Thanks Zena.

I love your name!! (and also your namesake, but we won't talk about that)

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Zena Fobic
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 01:12 PM

How many long time Mudcatters feel towards newcomers with bad threadiquette

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Neil Lowe (inactive)
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 11:43 AM

First off, 'Xenophobia' threw me for a loop and I definitely had to look that up before continuing....then let's see...since reading this thread I have come across...ummm....'laboidental'.....'fricative' (immediately after I was trying to recuperate from 'labiodental',no less)....and 'phathic'(phatic?)....

Not to mention the theoretical origins of a commonly used vulgarity......brief history of French and English conflict hundreds of years ago....

So that's English, History, and Etymology....all from a thread about xenophobia. My dictionary is really getting a workout today. I'm glad I took my vitamins. I'm not sure I've had all the prerequisites for this course, but I'll stick it out for the enlightenment nonetheless. Eyes and ears open, mouth shut.

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 10:56 AM

I'll be there, Dai! Any other 'Catters will be welcome too, but if you don't know where it is you're too far away to get there ...

Steve

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 10:45 AM

Oops again, sorry Steve, I hear you. Cellar Bar on Monday OK?

Yours snowed-underly,

Dai P.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: AlistairUK
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 08:41 AM

PeteM: Ok just to set the record straight, I wasn't pinning anything on you...I certainly realised that what you said was exteremely tongue in cheek and I think I did mention that in my initial posting. You remarks just got me to thinking and I thought this might have made ( and I think I've been proved correct)and interesting subject. I'm sorry if you thought I was picking on you, I humbly apologise and will go and flog myself immediately (Whilst watching videos of Xena).

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 08:01 AM

I think if someone invited me to meet him in a bar and he'd buy me a drink, then he didn't turn up, I'd be offended enough to tell him to go and plough something. However, most Welsh people I've met have been generous and forgiving, and they'd probably invite me for a drink in return (I'd get the first one in).

Obscurely, Steve

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Banjer
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 06:46 AM

The last line of the previous post is a perfect example of which we speak here. "I think that anything not intended to cause offence should be taken in the spirit it was intended..." It is difficult to know how something I say in jest, not meaning any offense at all, will be interpreted by those hearing my words. Indeed if I say something to two people, one may be offended and the other may see it as a joke.

I do remember one incident in my younger years I will admit to. I was in the Army, stationed in Seoul, Korea in 1969. We had a group of Korean soldiers(KATUSA) that were assigned to our unit. A fun loving group of guys whose command of the English language had vastly improved since their assignment to us. The Seargent in charge of the KATUSA and several of us GI's decided it would be fun to teach some of the new incoming KATUSA some new English which they could use. Several days later when our 1st Sgt and CW2 arrived for the start of the day they were "honored" to be met by the new Koreans troops greeting them with such phrases as "Kiss my a**", "Go to hell", and "Your mother wears combat boots", which they had been taught in our late night lanquage course as meaning Good Morning, How are you, and Is there anything you want me to do for you. The powers that be suspected who was behind it, but were never able to pin the act on anyone so no punishment was meted out. I'm sure the statute of limitation has run out so it is safe to tell this now. ;)

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 04:04 AM

Cara: your story is apocryphal, I'm afraid. The origin of the profanity is the Anglo-Saxon verb 'fukan', which means 'to plough'.

Anyway, I agree with all the Brits on this thread - being Welsh, I know what it is to be gently ribbed about my origins, and know that my ribbers expect to be ribbed in return. It's all phathic communion, as Chomsky said.

However, I can't condone the wearing of white dresses and pointy hoods, or shaving off of hair and wearing Union Flag t-shirts, etc. etc.

I think that anything not intended to cause offence should be taken in the spirit it was intended...

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 03:43 AM

Penny, let me recommend a little book called Roger's Profanisaurus, which is a compliation by Roger Melly, The Man on the Telly, of all the words and expressions you won't find in the dictionary (even Partridge!). It opened my eyes, I can tell you! Despite the unsavoury nature of the contents, just approach it with a willing suspension of unbelief and you'll find it very entertaining. Impress all your friends!

Steve

P.S. They're in alphabetical order too!

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Penny
Date: 18 Mar 99 - 03:03 AM

Correction, I do know my alphabet, but it was late, the computer was not typing what I thought, and I had a phone call while doing this. I meant before l. And it should be almost none. There is a cake called foca.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Penny
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 07:25 PM

How did yew think of little old me? Actually, it so happens that I'm sort of half started on a bit of research on churchyard yews in Britain. Only the government constantly moving the goalposts in teaching is eating up my time, so I haven't got very far. I have read a few yew books though, and some retail the medieval bowman tale about the two fingers. None, however, mention the verbal accompaniment. I think it's probably clutching at straws, too. No help in the Anglo-Saxon dictionary. There are no words between b and d or l and m after either fo or fu of any meaning at all. So sorry, can't sort it out.

Subject: RE: Xenophobia
From: Pete M
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 06:27 PM

LEJ, the origin of lewd gestures, including the V sign, is discussed by Morris in one of his books (Naked Ape I think). The definitive work on the longbow is Hardy's "The long bow - a social and military history" If there is any foundation to the Agincourt story it should be in there. So far I've not read it, but its near the top of my list.

Pete M