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efdss dances at Sharp House

The Sandman 04 Jun 07 - 12:53 PM
Downshift 18 Apr 07 - 07:05 AM
The Sandman 17 Apr 07 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 31 Dec 06 - 09:34 AM
The Sandman 31 Dec 06 - 09:26 AM
The Sandman 31 Dec 06 - 08:18 AM
Folkiedave 31 Dec 06 - 07:02 AM
johnadams 31 Dec 06 - 06:33 AM
The Sandman 31 Dec 06 - 05:51 AM
GUEST 31 Dec 06 - 04:38 AM
The Sandman 30 Dec 06 - 05:42 PM
The Sandman 30 Dec 06 - 03:37 PM
The Sandman 30 Dec 06 - 02:28 PM
GUEST 30 Dec 06 - 12:10 PM
The Sandman 30 Dec 06 - 06:56 AM
The Sandman 30 Dec 06 - 06:49 AM
The Sandman 30 Dec 06 - 05:53 AM
Fidjit 30 Dec 06 - 04:56 AM
GUEST 30 Dec 06 - 04:34 AM
The Sandman 29 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM
Ruth Archer 29 Dec 06 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 29 Dec 06 - 06:33 AM
The Sandman 28 Dec 06 - 02:38 PM
Ruth Archer 28 Dec 06 - 02:14 PM
Folkiedave 28 Dec 06 - 12:09 PM
The Sandman 28 Dec 06 - 10:53 AM
The Sandman 28 Dec 06 - 10:37 AM
GUEST 28 Dec 06 - 08:46 AM
manitas_at_work 28 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM
Ruth Archer 28 Dec 06 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 28 Dec 06 - 07:14 AM
johnadams 27 Dec 06 - 11:02 PM
Folkiedave 27 Dec 06 - 11:51 AM
Ruth Archer 27 Dec 06 - 11:22 AM
Folkiedave 26 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,JA in Singapore 26 Dec 06 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Johnadams in Changi Airport 26 Dec 06 - 09:01 AM
oggie 26 Dec 06 - 06:31 AM
GUEST 26 Dec 06 - 04:12 AM
Fidjit 25 Dec 06 - 06:03 PM
The Sandman 25 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM
oggie 25 Dec 06 - 04:07 PM
Folkiedave 25 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM
The Sandman 25 Dec 06 - 03:09 PM
Folkiedave 25 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM
GUEST 25 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM
Fidjit 25 Dec 06 - 09:15 AM
The Sandman 25 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM
GUEST 25 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM
Alan Day 24 Dec 06 - 06:40 PM
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:53 PM

paracetomol is also a dangerous substance,foranyone that has alcohol in their system.I am sure the dancers at cecil sharp house just get high on dancing.


This thread is a major spam magnet. Contact a moderator if you need it reopened to post anything. ---mudelf


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Downshift
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:05 AM

Although, to be honest, if they wanted them they wouldn't have to walk far to get them!


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:39 AM

cheap tramadol,Idont think anyone attending dances at Cecil Sharp House needs drugs.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 09:34 AM

Dick Miles and folkie dave are both correct in their statements about the purpose of the Folk Song Society. It was international in its outlook, and not specifically English. The Journal published a small number of articles about non-English song, including a significant issue about Gaelic song.
If anything, the dance side of EFDSS became more international in outlook (dance groups invited to the Albert Hall festivals, Sidmouth etc) and the song side became less international.
Derek Schofield


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 09:26 AM

correction, it was not malcolm douglas,but folkie dave .
the thread was[ what has efdss done to promote english folk song]
4AUG 06, 5 29 AM he said,
THE EFDSSwas formed in 1932,when the folk song society and english Folk dance society were amalgamated,The English part of the name refers only to dance, the folk song side was never restricted to England or the English language, nor is it now.
he then said[what would be good is people read before posting wrong information].
now who am I to believe NOW.FOLKIE DAVE OR John Adams, if it is in fact international, there has clearly been a misunderstanding for many people for many years and I would suggest many lost opportunities. Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:18 AM

thankyou john,in a previous thread in discussion with Malcolm Douglas he pointed out to me that I was erroneously calling it the english folksong society,that when the two societies merged, the english dance society and the folk song society,that efdss stands for english dance society and folk song society,the folksong society,being still the folk song society and therefore international[NOT EXCLUSIVELY ENGLISH.]
either you or Malcolm Douglas is right,Ihave now had the privilege of being corrected by you both.
Before I was a professional musician 30 years ago, Iwas a supervisor/manager of a chain of retail oulets, during my training Iwas taught to be aggressive about seeking business,not to wait for the business to come to me but to go out and seek it[thisis the approach I am suggesting].WASSAIL AND HAPPY NEW YEAR.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 07:02 AM

John hits the nail on the head, anyone can hire C#house - within the usual legal restraints. Last time I was there it was a youth theatre auditioning people. If CCE need a venue all they have to do is ask.


And a happy New Year to all Catters.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: johnadams
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:33 AM

Dick,

Can I clarify something with you? You keep saying that the efdss "are supposed to be international when it comes to song" . I don't know where this comes from or exactly what you mean by it?

It's the English Folk Dance and (English Folk) Song Society. Of course people who research under the efdss banner consider English song in context (ie. with regard to how it relates to Scotland, Wales, Ireland, US/Canada, Oz and the Caribbean, etc - ie. where the variants are found) but that's different from being 'international'.

With regard to 'hiring the house to other comhaltas branches' , we certainly wouldn't turn the trade away. We 'invite' as many people as possible to hire the House but surely it's up to the Comhaltas to hire if they have a need - I don't know if they even need to hire a venue. It's a nice idea but it's beyond our control.

You seem to have an odd idea of how things work.

It's approaching midnight here in Oz and as I write this, a kookaburra is competing with the sound of a blues band playing at a neighbour's barby. Happy New Year to you and all Mudcatters who are reading this thread.

J


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:51 AM

yes jim .it was me that suggested singing competitions,its no more hare brained than having a song writing competition.[you still havent answered my questions]
let me remind you that Julia Clifford won the all ireland fiddle competition,That EDEL FOX recently won a comhaltas competition. two musicians, who deserve respect, that had no problem with competitions,.
however efdss could extend the invitation to hiring the house[ if they havent done so already ]to other comhaltas branches[after all they are supposed to be international when it comes to song],the same could apply to welsh music societies,and scots or any other nationality.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:38 AM

Cap'n,
Unless things have changed radically in the last eight years Comhaltas has kept a very low profile in London (virtually all the branches there were either dead or in need of the last rites being read). The most active branch in the capital was in West London - unfortunately it was expelled for refusing to participate in a political fund-raising event (on the basis that the branch was made up of all denominations - and even atheists like myself). It changed its name to the West London Irish Traditional Music Association - and thrived, with support from such members as Bobby Casey, Danny Meehan, The McCarthys, John Bowe, Raymond rowland, Roger Sherlock...et al.
I agree entirely about the value of the branches, unfortunately them upstairs are carving a reputation for CCE which is, to say the least, unsavoury. I suggest you visit Brú Ború sometime and see what your money's being spent on, or maybe read the reference in Fintan Vallely's Companion To Irish Traditional Music.
The subject only became relevent to EFDSS when somebody came up with the hare-brained suggestion of organising singing competitions!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:42 PM

To bring us back to e.f.d.s.s,in camden town.
I bet that if anyone is doing anything like this in the area it will be comhaltas.
no i;m not having ago at e.f.d.s.s, they are doing other praise worthy things,im just stating facts.
as I understand it efdss no longer have local branches[If this is correct this is a mistake],comhaltas strength lies in the commitment of its members at local level[ getting involved with music in their local communities]and at the same time providing a social club atmosphere[ much in the same way folk CLUBS can do[ Swindon carrington ]etc.
I would suggest that approaching comhaltas to see if they would be interested in hiring the house with its excellent dancing floors would be a good idea[it would hopefully break down barriers between the two folk cultures].the excellent room downstairs used by sharps song club could be used as well by comhaltas as a song venue etc etc.
if e.f.d.s.s has already thought of these things my apologies.




                                                 '----------'


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:37 PM

JIM,the point I am making is that,Local branch committees are left to get on very much as they please,fortunately my two local branches skibbereen and Bantry,are what I would call progressive[E G realising that the social and fun part of playing music is as important as competitions].wassail.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:28 PM

jim ,I pay no heed to o murchu,
what i prefer to do is, go and help my branch[skibbereen comhaltas] once a month,and skibbereen comhaltas og,by playing music along with the children, round the fireside,fortunately our committee, realise that it is not all about competitions,.
its wonderful to see the children socialising, and enjoying playing music in a non competitive way,enjoying dancing the seige of ennis,and having fun while learning about their culture.wassail Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:10 PM

Cap'n,
If you haven't read O'Murchu's 1999 report, I suggest you do - it sums up perfectly where Comhaltas stands at the moment,
I would aim my criticisms at GAA if they were under discussion.
Competitions are for winners, which should npt be what music is about.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:56 AM

I enter competitions because I love playing music,. also the report sheet from someone like Denis mc mahon[ cork fiddle adjudicator]might throw light on possible improvement. I have the attitude rather like the amateur, corinthian casuals Soccer Team that I am doing it purely for the craic, the enjoyment of doing[ in fact i normally trow their ghastly medals away] DickMiles


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:49 AM

I agree with some of your criticisms, jim ,particuarly [dressing up].
in relation to the fleadhs,they do have a large impact as they are televised,they also attract many musicians, who have nothing to do with the competitions,but who go for the craic, and seem to have a good time and make lots of good music.
in my opinion the best competitions are the ceilidh bands[ the music is still danceable, and sounds like dance music because the rhythym instruments[ often pianos] play on the beat.,rather than just filling in the sound ,the music still has lift[something frequently missing on geanntrai tg4 programmes, and also with players who never play for dancing].


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:53 AM

Jim your entitled to your opinions ,but you should also aim this criticism at the g aa scor and glor na gael,.IN RELATION TO COMHALTAS, I still think their contribution is an overall plus,[ in my experience their judges are better than the g a a]and that the examination system is a progressive step.
are you against examinations for classical music ,and are you against song writing competitions. I have seen lots of children enjoy thegaa scors and the comhaltas fleadh, they seem to like the examinations too.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Fidjit
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:56 AM

I have to agree with Jim. Music is not meant ot be a competion. Competition kills. Religion, cricket. Look how sad the English cricketers are at the moment.

River dance was the flavour of the month in the ninties. Which in turn brought an upsurge of Irish music out of the closet (A good thing) Now the Irish sessions are a competition as to who can get to the end or into the next tune first. It's gone over to Celtic Muzac (A bad thing) Fotunatly it's (Itrash) is on the wan. Sorry that should have been (Irish). The real music will like cream rise to the top.

Happy New Year to you all.

Chas


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:34 AM

Whichever way they are judged, the idea of competitions is detrimental to the music. Competitions are for winners; they do nothing for those who just wish to play music for the love of it. If, as you say, one person has the sole decision in what is 'the best' this is even further proof of this. While everybody has a right to an opinion, nobody should have final say - this is what MacColl was often accused of (wrongly).
Comhaltas, by adopting the competition ethic, has produced a set of rules in order to decide what is good and what is bad. This has led to what I have often heard referred to (particularly by older musicians) as 'Comhaltas players'.
It has produced a form of dancing which has nothing to do with the tradition - a natural fore-runner to Riverdance (Riverdance was listed by Labhras O Murchu as a great achievement in his 1999 report).
The singing favoured by CCE is more akin to Victorian parlour singing than the traditional styles, and when they refer to 'the ballads' they are invariably talking about the 'parlour ballads' (I've had discussions with their members on a dozen occasions on this subject).
Their dancers are expected to dress up in pseudo medieval costume and this 'Darby O'Gillism' is extended to singers and musicians who often appear in the pages of their magazine in Georgian dress. All this has nothing whatever to do with the performance of traditional music, let alone making it relevent to the 21st century.
There is no doubt whatever that Comhaltas members (and others) kept traditional music alive during the decline, but somewhere along the way their leaders dropped the ball. Nowadays their activities are represented almost entitely by the Fleadhs, large, uncomfortable festivals which have little impact on the music as a whole. The modern upsurge in Irish music is taking place without Comhaltas, and in some cases, in spite of them.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM

to jim carroll,26 dec 4 12 am.
the county COMHALTAS competitions, regional COMHALTAS competitions,and some national competitions[comhaltas]have one judge,the g,a.a scor competetions for music have one judge.
the glor na gael music competitions have one judge[ I know because I have judged for both glor na gael and g a a scor competitions, and have performed in comhaltas competitions.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:52 AM

I recognise the pattern you're talking about: I'm American, and worked for an Irish arts centre in Los Angeles for a couple of years in the 80s. There we had the "Irish Ethos Committee", not a million miles from Comhaltas as I've expreienced it in England, and similarly made up of migrants whose interpretation of their own culture was frozen in time. I guess this is a pitfall of any similar organisation: it will only be relevant to certain people at certain times, particularly as preserving that interpretation of the culture becomes central to its reason for being - hence the charges of insularity. I don't think that's the same thing as the implied racism of English people perceiving them as the "wrong sort" of Irish people - in fact, there are people from their own community who are probably thinking the very same thing...


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:33 AM

Ruth Archer, yes, you're quite right that many people have found their way to Irish music through other routes besides the Comhaltas route - and that's fine. But think about what those other routes have been: records, folk clubs and festivals, sessions and so on. Now that's all well and good, but what Comhaltas does, with varying degrees of success, is to locate Irish music within the Irish community.

Folk club performances and pub sessions comprised of folk musicians who have come to Irish music later in life don't seek to fulfil that function.   For many Irish people, therefore, those versions of 'Irish' music are as irrelevant as you say that Comhaltas is for many musicians.

Since the formation Comhaltas in the 50s and for most of the time since, that community, at least in England (and we're talking about the state of folk music and dance in England so I think there's some relevance) has been homogeneous and cohesive enough to support clubs and Irish centres across the country where traditional music and dance have been supported. Perhaps that's the real challenge in promoting English music and dance: there isn't the same degree of common understanding, particularly among thoughtful, educated people who grew up during the 60s and 70s and who now represent the 'Folk Establishment' (for want of a better word), about what 'Englishness' itself means.

I think many of the criticisms of Comhaltas you refer to are very valid, though I think you need to consider them in context: many Comhaltas breanches still have members and committees who have been involved since they first came over from Ireland decades ago. To some extent, part of what they are doing (whether consciously or not) is to preserve a community and a sense of Irishness that itself stems from the Ireland they left.

I think this is something that many emigrant organisations tend to do. The US Senator and former UN Ambassador Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote a couple of very perceptive essays about this tendency of the Irish community to get itself organised soon after its arrival in a new country but then to settle into a very conservative pattern, reproducing the society it came from as well as acting as a group upon the new, host community. Edwin O'Connor's novel, 'The Last Hurrah' about city politics in Boston, also gives a strong sense of how Irish people tended to organise themselves socially and politically in the new setting. It's not just Comhaltas. And I don't doubt that many of the Irish people you knew had their own criticisms of Comhaltas. Plenty of Irish people in Liverpool do, including me.

What bothers me (and I've encountered this many times) is when English folk musicians profess to be attracted to Irish music on an aesthetic level but are clearly uncomfortable being around Irish people whose lifestyles or attitudes are not congruent with their own. Or when people profess to want to promote Irish music and culture but make a point of avoiding or excluding organisations like Comhaltas because it's comprised of the 'wrong' sort of Irish people. By the way, when I mentioned Racism earlier on, it wasn't Birdseye I was referring to. Just wanted to make that clear.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:38 PM

yes, that is perfectly valid,what I am saying is that the objections [ if there are any]should not be its ok to judge songwriting, but not traditional singing.
In fact if efdss reject my offer ,I would be quite happy to sponsor a song writing competetion.But Iwould like to donate any sponsorship specifically to song. Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:14 PM

Dick, the Take Six project is not a songwriting competition. From what I understand, it's about getting EFDSS resources out into the regions.

I'm not best placed to talk about it, as my knowledge is sketchy, but others (John? Derek? You there?) will be able to talk about it in much more detail, and explain how it's part of EFDSS's strategy of having a stronger regional impact.

How does a songwriting competition differ from a singing competition? Maybe EFDSS feels that there are lots more young singers than songwriters in the traditional style, and hopes to stimulate songwriting.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:09 PM

We had our Folk revival ,it is about time for another.

My own experience of this is different.

In the late fifties and throughout the sixties we had an expansion. I am unhappy with calling it a revival. The Straw Bear Festival or Jack-in-the-Green events at Hastings on May Day are revivals. Singing and playing never died.

Our folk music came to us in different forms - it was was sung spontaneously in families or sometimes in pubs. We changed that to folk clubs. It has now changed again to sessions and festivals. Sheffield, a city of over 500,000 people has loads of sessions and a festival but has difficulty supporting a traditional style folk club booking guests on a regular basis within the city boundaries.

There are dozens of highly talented young musicians and singers around, far more than there ever was when I first started listening in the early sixties.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:53 AM

to manitas ,in fact comhaltas dont put the tradition in a strait jacket,they unfortunately, alter it with their obsession with marks for ornamentation in their competitions.
but at least their competitions encourage youngsters[ many many more than those they put off]and the introduction of examinations,is an alternative with a focus for the less competetive minded.
now I think the take six project[ song writing competioin] by efdss is laudable.Please can anyone tell me why its ok to have a song writing competition,but not a traditional unaccompanied singing competition, those songs entered in the song writing competition may be tomorrows folk songs,so whats all the row about.
now those people, who are also against a song writing competition[ok ],but efdss clearly isnt ,so logically they shouldnt be against a tradional singing competition.Dick Miles.[new website www dick miles. com


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:37 AM

TO CHRIS B ,I am amember of skibbereen comhaltas,so every year for the last ten years they have had my subs[ 20 euros this year].
so to be even handed to efdss I made this offer[unfortunately I am not a millionaire]and christmas is now over, so I am making no more offers of sponsorship.
yesterday I was out wrenning, and raised 170 euros for the Ballydehob Jazz festival.Dick Miles.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 08:46 AM

It is difficult to compare Irish Folk culture to English.Irish Traditional music and Dance has continued in Ireland.The music is played on Radio Stations as part of the daily music scene.Irish Traditional Dance is encouraged by parents for their children.Local Irish dances are supported by the whole family.If you compare that with England we have virtualy no traditional music played except on the radio for a once a week Folk programme.If a Barn Dance is held the locals turn up with full cowboy kit on,they have no idea what English Tradional dance is about.When people hear it, most like it.They love the dances.Even youngsters will leave a disco and join in the folk dances if two events are being run in parallel.We have a lot to offer.Sadly even our pub sing arounds, which packed pubs after the war were killed off by the introduction of Juke Boxes.We had our Folk revival ,it is about time for another.
Al


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM

Except that Guest has lived in Ireland for many years and has worked with Irish traditional music for many years before that, hardly the lifestyle of a racist, eh?

Lots of people complain about the way that Comhaltas, and various branches of it, are run - mostly to do with putting the tradition in a straitjacket. At least the EFDSS can't do that these days as it doesn't supply teachers anymore.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 08:01 AM

Thank you, john. There's me, waving my ignorance like a flag yet again.

Chris B, you're right: people don't get involved in English folk dancing (and other aspects of culture) because they don't want to, and we need to adress the reasons why. But I'm not sure if Comhaltas is solely responsible for the current popularity of Irish traditional culture, nor if they provide a model for best practice in folk development.

I can only speak from personal experience, based on a venue (in the UK) where I used to work, where we did quite a lot of Irish music and dance. The perceptions of Comhaltas (amongst many of the Irish people with whom we worked closely) were not dissimilar to accusations sometimes made against EFDSS: stuffy, rigid, old-fashioned, stuck in its ways, insular, unwilling to adapt or be forward-thinking. I never found them particularly open or welcoming.

I don't think it's racist to suggest that there are many different kinds of people involved in the support and development of Irish traditional music - and many of them will find Comhaltas a difficult or irrelevant organisation.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 07:14 AM

I dunno. This thread has been quite illuminating, I suppose, but in a rather depressing way. I suppose a country or a culture gets the folk heritage it deserves. I would love to know more about how Comhaltas has 'vandalized' Irish music. If the damage has been that severe I can hardly imagine what sort of state the music would be in by now had it not been subjected to such appalling treatment by musicians, singers, dancers, parents, volunteers and other sundry undesirables. Perhaps it might even have been almost as healthy as English folk music and dance.

Let's face facts, shall we? People don't get involved in English folk dancing because they don't want to. It's as simple as that. Why don't they want to?

Birdseye, if you want to sponsor something useful the next Comhaltas All-Britain Fleadh will be at the University of Central Lancashire in Preston on the 31st June and the 1st of July. If we haven't vandalized the place before then.

I suspect that 'Guest' is hostile to Comhaltas because in his view, it doesn't promote Irish music in a way that is to his taste. Either that, or he feels the sort of Irish people who run it are not his sort of Irish people, or at least they don't conform to his preconception of what Irish people are supposed to be like, how they are supposed to behave, or what sort of attitudes they are supposed to espouse. There's a word for that sort of attitude. It's called racism.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: johnadams
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:02 PM

Ruth Archer wrote

Re Peter Kennedy: whatever happened to Halsway Manor?

Just to clarify, the Margaret Grant Library is at Halsway Manor. As far as I know it does not have a full time staff so curating multimedia collections would be difficult.

J


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:51 AM

Nothing happened. The legal owners of all Peter Kennedy's folk material, except films and video - books, records, recordings, etc. are Halsway Manor. This was done by Deed of Trust.

Best regards,

Dave


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:22 AM

Re Peter Kennedy: whatever happened to Halsway Manor?


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM

I assume that people are aware that the Peter Kennedy collection has been purchased by an American.
Jim Carroll


Jim,

That is simply not true as far as I know and I have been closely involved with the book part of the collection (only) and with David Kennedy (Peter's son) since September.

What is your evidence that this is true?


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST,JA in Singapore
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:06 AM

Jim Carroll wrote:

Apropos of nothing really, I assume that people are aware that the Peter Kennedy collection has been purchased by an American.

I'm not sure where that's come from. As I understood it the etxt material had gone to the Margaret Grant Library and the recordings to the National Sound Archive. I'm interested to hear more.

J - really off to the bar now!


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST,Johnadams in Changi Airport
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:01 AM

Greetings from Singapore Airport.

Having spent Christmas Day in the air and a portion of Boxing Day crashed out in the transit hotel, I'm just trying to kill an hour or so before my next onward flight.

Jim. I'm drinking that whisky! Thanks for your concern. If I wasn't robust enough to deal with the flack I wouldn't join the discussions in the first place. As always, I value your opinion as well as the opportunity to disagree with and complain about it. Although we may differ on the detail of many issues, I guess we are all in the game for similar reasons.

There are a few issues accumulated which I may well respond to in due course. For now I'll make a comment on the ballroom dancing one.

Well before the term 'folk' music was invented (by Victorians with an odd take on popular culture??), many of the tunes and dances that we now accept as part of the 'traditional' repertoire existed in 18th century assemblies (ballrooms to you!). The couple dance 'tradition' morphed into the Old Time Dancing scene in early 20th century UK. Just given these two propositions, it would be a bit dangerous to just dismiss 'ballroom dancing' out of hand. I must agree that 'Strictly Come Dancing" (which I must say provokes so very odd images in my brain during unguarded moments) doesn't quite belong at C#H just yet but let's keep some of our babies when we throw our bathwater out.

Dick.

Thanks for your offer 'putting your money where your mouth is'.
Personally I don't subscribe to the notion of traditional singing as a competitive sport but that's just a personal opinion. It's not ny decision of course, to accept or reject it, so I'll forward it on the National Council. Would you like to couch it in more formal terms for them?

There's a queue for this public machine so back to the bar!

Cheers, J


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: oggie
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 06:31 AM

Jim,

There is constructive and destructive discussion, unfortunately there seems to have been more of the latter than the former in some recent threads.

Steve


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 04:12 AM

Cap'n said
"I suggested that I should decide the winner".
I certainly hold no brief for competitions, nor do I believe Comhaltas know very much about traditional singing, but at least they have a PANEL of adjudicators to decide the winners. I don't care how you spend your money, I do care what happens to traditional singing, and it would be gross irresponsibility (and totally unprecedented) on the part of any organisation to allow an individual to decide what is good and what is bad - let alone pick winners.
Steve;
Unfortunately that's what discussion is about - I was pleasantly surprised to find when I joined, that this forum wasn't all back-slapping sycophancy and, although quite often criticism wasn't accurate or justified, at least much of it was well thought out and well-meaning - viva la difference!
Apropos of nothing really, I assume that people are aware that the Peter Kennedy collection has been purchased by an American.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Fidjit
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 06:03 PM

I agree
Something to do with Mr D. Miles' wooden spoon.

Oh listen to yourselves.
Here we go again having a shy at "Aunt Sally" Most of us missing badly. Like the theme about the dancers on the front cover of EDS a while ago.

Chas


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM

I am attempting to help EFDSS, by a specific donation, this I feel will help english folk song,AND GENERATE ENTHUSIASM and knowledge,and hopefully a love of this music. Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: oggie
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:07 PM

In the past few months this forum has knocked (in no particular order) -

EFDSS
BBC
Mike Harding, Folk Awards etc
Peter Kennedy
Ewan MacColl
to name but a few.

Why? and why can't we seem to get on with making and sharing our love of this music (whatever it may be, that's another set of rants) and concentrate on spreading and keeping that enthusiasm and knowledge base alive and vital. I come and go in this forum and every so often I feel that 'if that's what it's come to I'll go and watch our local council bicker instead'.

All the best (and season's greetings)

Steve Ogden


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM

I have loads of good folksong books

In that case, Dave - bookbuyer............just in case you understand..........

Dave


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 03:09 PM

logically,if efdss can hold a song writing competition,why shouldnt they hold a competition for traditional unaccompanied singing.
2.I dont think the bbc award,is for traditional unaccompanied singing.
3.I am not concerned about your opinions,only efdss and john adams opinions[my offer is genuine and I feel it is a better way of using my money to promote english song,than joining efdss]
4,I know quite alot about unaccompanied traditional singing.,and am qualified as well as anyone to judge[bearing in mind all judgements have a certain degree of subjectivity]
5, I dont need anyone to tell me how to spend my money.
6.I have loads of good folksong books.
7 . I suggested that I should decide the winner[ Iam considered by many to be a good unaccompanied singer]however that is open to negotiation between myself and EFDSS,if they are interested. there are plenty of other good unaccompanied singers and I am sure we[EFDSS AND MYSELF] could NEGOTIATE that.
8.I am not spending, efdss members money but my own,so please let me decide how I wish to spend my money .DickMiles.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM

Me too.

Dave Eyre, Bookseller.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

Cap'n
Wonder who will decide the winner and with what authority?
Why vandalise English traditional music in the same way Comhaltas had vandalised Irish music. Surprisingly enough, I find myself in total agreement with Fidgit on this one.
Would reccommend you spend your money on a good book on folksong,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Fidjit
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 09:15 AM

Jim Carrol
We all have our own hang-ups. I wouldn't go to a BF thingy either.

Dick Miles
Don't bother.
We already have Mike Harding buggering that up for the BBC.

Alan Day
A Dance is a Dance

Enjoy what you enjoy

Chas


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

to john adams,.
I am not a mamber of efdss,however I would be prepared to sponsor with a prize of 200 sterling, a competition for traditional unaccompanied singing[PATICIPANTS UNDER 18]. AND COME from IRELAND, AT MY OWN EXPENSE,to judge it .
if you or efdss are interested ,please contact me here at mudcat.Dick Miles.


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM

In which case, you need to remove the words 'folk' or 'traditional' from your organisations and activities - both of which have perfectly understandable and well documented definitions; in this way you will be doing 'exactly what it says on the tin'. Of course, the problem with this is you will then be entering the applications for grants bunfight in direct competition with all other dance and song organisations - and no responsible grant-giving body is going to take seriously an organisation which is not clear about its own identity - unfortunately you don't get grants just for enjoying yourself.
The other alternative is to re-define the terms officially (as did the International Folk Music Council); but to do this, you will have to achieve a consensus among all involved. I don't know if you have read the thread on this forum entitled (something like)'What is traditional folk music', if not, I suggest you do. It indicates the confusion that has risen up around our activities.
The Irish Traditional Music Council is not the only organisation to receive large grants for work in traditional music over here, there was a list of others recently published and the over-riding factor in all of them is they do exactly what they say they do. This has long been a problem in England, and one of the reasons I and thousands like me stopped going to 'folk clubs' - we no longer knew what music we would be listening to - Fidjit's posting is a perfect example of this. Sorry - I wouldn't walk down the road to King George's Park for a free Bruce Forsyth show - now Sheila Stewart - that's another matter.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 06:40 PM

Sorry if I mis-represented you Jim, but there are many who feel that a line has to be drawn somewhere where dance is concerned,perhaps you are one.Why? Some would draw it at Playford.Some would rule out made up Country Dances which are not traditional.Some Ballroom Dances are traditional.American Swing and Rock and Roll is now traditional.A line cannot be drawn, there is no reason to do so.Lovers of all types of dance need to be encouraged,they are the future.
A Happy Xmas to you all
Al


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