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efdss dances at Sharp House
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Scrump Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM That's true, these poor folk could at least wash before peeing in the gutter. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: The Sandman Date: 21 Dec 06 - 12:02 PM manitas.... a pecuiliar fascination for the society,implies all sort of things[in a previous thread, john adams made the remark referring to my name[[ dick miles]],never mind the width feel the quality. it was quite unecessary to the discussion,to talk about[[ pecuiliar fascination for the society]]or to mention that I dont support the society by being a member.one doesnt have to be a member to have views,and my views are not against the society and not against dances at the house. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 21 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM OK Captain Birdmiles, I'm in festive mood so I'll fall for this one! You write...... I am not a member at this present moment,I might be convinced to rejoin if more was done for English Song What exactly did you have in mind that the EFDSS should do for English Song? |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: BB Date: 21 Dec 06 - 02:32 PM John, I apologise. The ad. in EDS indicated that it would be available in December, and I took that to mean *by* December. In addition, the website indicated that it was available, but it wasn't there (and still isn't!) when you go to the online shop. And sorry, but I didn't want to buy any other book! Even in the folk scene it seems that many releases *are* timed to coincide with the Christmas market, or the festival season or whatever, and I did make an assumption that EFDSS was trying to do the same - and failing. So yes, I was perhaps a tad unfair, but I refrain from *abject* apologies! Happy Christmas. Barbara |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 21 Dec 06 - 02:54 PM Barbara - No apologies necessary, abject or otherwise. We'd like to be fully sorted out on these things but sometimes there are too many priorities. As it happens one of the new directors has taken responsibility for the Marketing and Promotion part of my previously too-wide portfolio of responsibilities so we should be able to put more effort into getting it right. That means I can concentrate on the web site developments. The new song book should be on the web shop site but we've had a few difficulties with updating it. There is a new shop site under construction which will be content managed by the staff at the House and they will be able to add new items as soon as they are available. These things take time, unless you can throw lots of money at them. J |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: The Sandman Date: 21 Dec 06 - 04:15 PM TO ANSWER that, I need to have details of what efdss has done to promote english folk song over the last year,. I need to know the amounts spent on english folk dance, compared to english song,I need to know the size of the grant for english dance, and whether english folk song has the same amount of money available in grants .o congratulations on the job,nice one. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Ruth Archer Date: 21 Dec 06 - 04:37 PM I don't know what a proper analysis will show, but I reckon that EDS magazine has been a big boost in terms of promoting English song (and dance) this year. It's become a lot more attractive, with features of interest to a wide variety of (current and potential) members. It's been on sale at lots of festivals, so it's available beyond the current membership. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: dermod in salisbury Date: 21 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM 'What makes me ashamed is the attitude of folkies to the homeless of Camden. 'a large and none too clean woman squatting to pee in the gutter' Would a small clean person have been more acceptable? Obvously Camden should be cleaned up to make it a place fit fot folkies to sing of ummm beggars say? Anonymous guest's post above is probably trying to make a valid point. The proper response to misery or deprivation is to try to do something to alleviate it and introduce more social justice in the world. But I fear he has missed the point on this one. A person who urinates in the street while shouting obscenities at passers-by (unless mentally ill) is behaving badly. It insults the homeless and the underprivileged to make the assumption that those misfortunes equal bad behaviour of this kind. Brutishness can and does occur in every level of society and may take many forms. It should shock and inspire disgust wherever it is encountered. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: BB Date: 21 Dec 06 - 05:12 PM I'm sure John A. will correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I'm aware, there has been/is no grant aid available for English folk song, whereas the dance side has had Sports grant aid for years! It may seem inappropriate, but dance, in terms of education, has always been regarded as part of the sports, rather than the arts, programme. Who taught us social dance at school? The PE teachers! Barbara |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:12 PM CB We don't do grants! We apply for them. Barbara is right. Core dance has been funded by Sport England but this will not be for much longer. There is no equivalent for song although the Lottery does fund individual song projects rather than core funding. We haven't spent anything directly on English folk dance or English folk song (not sure what you mean anyway). We are running a young persons Song Writing Competition right now which currently has 28 entries. Prize is £100 plus a life membership to the Society. finals are at Cheltenham Festival. We have published several English song books in the last couple of years. Traveller's Joy Book and CD Songs of English and Scottish Travellers and Gypsies 1965-2005 Compiled by Mike Yates; musical transcriptions by Elaine Bradtke; editorial assistance by David Atkinson and Malcolm Taylor; audio recordings by Mike Yates. Dear Companion: Appalachian Traditional Songs and Singers from the Cecil Sharp Collection. That's English in the sense that the Appalachians is reckoned by some to be a great repository of English song. Folk Song: Tradition, Revival and Re-creation. (Research based) Classic English Folk Songs (formerly Penguin Book of English Folk Songs - newly annotated by Malcolm Douglas) Still Growing: English Traditional Songs and Singers from the Cecil Sharp Collection We are currently bidding for money for a 5 year song project called Take Six. Hopefully we'll be successful. There are several other song projects on the drawing board. On the dance side we have done a couple of dance CDs - including The Bismarcks - and republished the Community Dance Manuals. Not much for a "dance obsessed society" as we have been described in the past. What job? |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Alan Day Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:13 PM It sounds as if this urinating lady has got a home,but she has escaped from it. Thinking further about improvements ,it would be possible to provide catering facilities at Cecil Sharp House with very little cost.Food need not necessarily be cooked on the premises a catering company with a franchise could easily prepare all the food in their premises and reheat it in a fairly small kitchen area. This is being successfully achieved at a hall in the Crawley area and four or five course meals are being served with no problems. With a bit of modernisation, a removable carpet to cover part of the big dance hall where tables and chairs could actually be used for eating and drinking on.(the carpet protecting the dance floor underneath).The area then lends itself to cater for Wedding parties requiring Folk Orientated Dances, which most of us at one time or another have played for.Introducing a new audience for Folk Dance and providing bookings for Folk Bands. With a bit of thought the place could actually start to be exciting again . Al |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Scrump Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:42 AM I think we should commend the 'lady' in question for urinating in the gutter - she showed great consideration for others by choosing that location. It would be more objectionable, IMO, to do so on the footpath or in the tube station. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: GUEST, ... Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:38 AM Liz doesn't seem to have been put off going to C Sharp House by the large lady, even though she claims that at the time she was both naive and little. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Alan Day Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:12 AM Sadly after this event Liz started squeeking. Al |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:38 AM Alan, it appears that thee and me are out on our own in trying to think of practical ways of making the place more popular and pleasant. Maybe that's just not what some people want. Websites and song books are great, as are on-line sales, but they aren't necessarily going to get people into the building. And as regards the urinating lady at the tube station, I've seen plenty of large and none too clean women - and men - inside the building in my time. Stones and glass houses? Some responses to the comparison with Comhaltas. Comhaltas is far from perfect but it does function at a grass-roots, local level outside of London in a way that EFDSS seems not to do. Maybe I'm missing something. And as far as kids being put off music by being taken along to lessons by their parents: well, maybe, in some cases. But a lot of kids get music lessons that they don't particularly want at the time but they are often grateful for it later on in life. One of our teachers in Liverpool was brought along as a kid and drifted away from it as she grew up. Now she has kids of her own and she wants them to have to same contact with their roots that her own parents made sure she had. So now, she's got seven or eight kids gathered round her (other peoples as well as her own) learning the whistle every Monday night. Maybe Comhaltas is an old-fashioned, conservative organisation (how very unlike the EFDSS!) but for a long time, until Irish music became 'trendy', it was almost alone in keeping it alive, especially in England, and it will still be there when all the folkies who only came to Irish music after they heard the Bothy Band, Van Morrison and the Chieftains or the Waterboys have drifted off in search of the latest craze in 'Roots' music. I should emphasise, however, that Comhaltas is mainly concerned with music rather than dance - which is what this was supposed to be about. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Scrump Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:48 AM And as regards the urinating lady at the tube station, I've seen plenty of large and none too clean women - and men - inside the building in my time. Stones and glass houses? But I assume these people were not urinating when you saw them inside C#H? I would certainly hope not, anyway. Unless of course they were in the C#H Ladies and Gents (respectively) at the time. I think it was the urination that was being objected too, rather than the size or cleanliness of the woman in question - primarily, at least. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:13 AM I dunno, Scrump. Might explain some of the dancing. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: The Sandman Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:06 AM to bb .our folk dancing and folk singing at my primary school was not by the p e teacher.,but the head master. JOHN ADAMS.Iwould like to see efdss get involved in the folk festival scene again, as you know they used to run Sidmouth ,chippenham, whitby,and many others.I would like to see them do the sort of thing that the Hallamshire traditions have done[I believe they were involved in promoting either the hallamshire or a similiar event in yorkshire[[THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED PREVIOUSLY,but i cant find the thread]] I know they have financial burdens,But the involvement in schools needs to be encouraged as much as is possible,Comhaltas appear to have political influence which helps their funding. efdss might well approach Andrew Rosindell mp for romford who seems to want to promote StGeorges day[with folk events][ idont agree with his politics],but if he is keen on promoting folk music for whatever reason,he is a possible ally,and someone with some influence,who may be able to help e.f.d.s,s. In the meantime PROMOTING CONCERTS AT CECIL SHARP HOUSE,booking acts that are going to put bums on seats, and providing adeqate facilities, is something that if efdss isnt doing they should be. to accumulate you must speculate. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Scrump Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM Why don't the EFDSS lobby TfL for a spur line from Camden Town to C#H, similar to the one between Earls Court and Olympia? This could be used on days when events are being held there. It would make getting to and from the venue easier, and avoid people having to walk from Camden Town tube. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 22 Dec 06 - 11:24 AM Scrump. Brilliant idea though that undoubtedly is, I think audience numbers might be a bit of a barrier here. C#H is not quite as big and busy as Olympia. ..... and I think something happening in East London in 2012 might also have priority - can't think why though! |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:23 PM CB I would like to see efdss get involved in the folk festival scene again, as you know they used to run Sidmouth ,chippenham, whitby,and many others. That's not going to happen. It's not what efdss does any more. It is a support and resourcing organisation. Anyway, why would it seek to duplicate or compete with what others are doing so well? CB I would like to see them do the sort of thing that the Hallamshire traditions have done[I believe they were involved in promoting either the hallamshire or a similiar event in yorkshire[[THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED PREVIOUSLY,but i cant find the thread]] You mean like the Take Six Project I described earlier, which covers nine counties? CB I know they have financial burdens,But the involvement in schools needs to be encouraged as much as is possible, Yes of course they have financial burdens which is why we can't afford to do them without funding - which is why we are applying for funding. Comhaltas appear to have political influence which helps their funding. efdss might well approach Andrew Rosindell mp for romford who seems to want to promote StGeorges day[with folk events][ idont agree with his politics],but if he is keen on promoting folk music for whatever reason,he is a possible ally,and someone with some influence,who may be able to help e.f.d.s,s. Do you assume we're not talking to government agencies? Of course we are. DCMS, MLA, EDMP, anyone who has the slightest bearing on folk music in education. And we recently contributed to the DCMS Committee Evidence Session on Caring for Collections with regard to connecting education with resource materials in our possession. You also have to realise that the government and cultural institutions in Ireland have a different attitude to traditional music than over here. In UK it seems to take longer to get things done and there's more competition for funds. It's getting better and a lot more folk development agencies are making successful bids than before, but we're not there with the big stuff yet. CB In the meantime PROMOTING CONCERTS AT CECIL SHARP HOUSE,booking acts that are going to put bums on seats, and providing adeqate facilities, is something that if efdss isnt doing they should be. to accumulate you must speculate. Interesting isn't it that on the one hand people can say that the Society is London-centric and then someone like you can say "promote concerts at Cecil Sharp House" and if we do then someone else will say why don't you do it up North, and so we go on. Yes of course it is nice to put stuff on for Londoners and we do run concerts at the House but that's incidental to the business of providing resources nationwide, which is what we really aspire to do. As for speculating to accumulate, concerts in London are notoriously difficult to get to break-even stage and speculating with members money is maybe not a good idea, especially when the majority of members wouldn't be able to benefit by attending (it's that London-centric thing you see!!). All in all, everything you've suggested we're already doing or have made a conscious policy decision to avoid because it doesn't coincide with our strategic plan or somebody else is already doing it effectively. J |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:50 PM Personally, I particularly agree with two points there, John. EFDSS should not be in the business of running festivals. What would be the point? Secondly, that it shouldn't be EFDSS's job to be promoting concerts in London. Unless these are special events, such as the Nibs Matthews or Cyril Tawney memorials, I would again question the need and suggest that it would merely be duplicating provision. EFDSS should be working at a strategic level, not on delivery of events. I think it is a real shame that there isn't more of a presence in the regions - I have been approached by my local EFDSS committee (though I'm given to understand that such committees no longer officially exist) with regard to offering support for our "folk into schools" project. Now, there's not a lot they'd be able to do at this stage as funding and facilitators are all in place, but I was still glad to hear from them. It seems to me that perhaps EFDSS's education remit should put a strong emphasis on partnering the delivery organisations around the country who are working in the area of folk song and dance development, especially in schools. This would certainly help to move the society's profile into one of contemporary relevance. The question is, what can EFDSS bring to the table? I'd be delighted to list the society as a partner in our projects, but it's a queston of what benefit such a partnership could bring to the work. Maybe it's simply exposure. Or maybe there are background resources that could be made available to enhance the work in some way. But it occurs to me that this would be one way for the society to be having regional impact without having to maintain a regional presence. And that future funding bids might concentrate on this area. Just a thought. And well done for all your hard work - it must seem pretty thankless at times. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:14 PM Ruth Archer (fresh from the farm) wrote: I think it is a real shame that there isn't more of a presence in the regions - I have been approached by my local EFDSS committee (though I'm given to understand that such committees no longer officially exist) with regard to offering support for our "folk into schools" project. Now, there's not a lot they'd be able to do at this stage as funding and facilitators are all in place, but I was still glad to hear from them. I couldn't agree more. The efdss shot itself in the foot when it disbanded the regions. I wasn't a member then and I've no idea what the motivation was, but it clearly had an effect on what members could contribute to the Society. The present National Council recognises the problem and would like to stimulate more regional involvement with the centre, particularly with regard to educational initiatives.
RA
RH
RH Thanks for an interesting post. J |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM I notice that Comhaltas was mentioned in this discussion. In my capacity as Chair of the (Vaughan Williams memorial) Library Advisory Committee, I attended the re-opening of the Irish Traditional Music Archive in Dublin last month. The Minister for the Arts in Ireland made mention in his speech about the level of funding given to Irish traditional music, and also said that in the last 2 years, he had awarded 5 mill euros to Comhaltas for its development plan .... and 165,000 euros to the Archive's capital expenditure, and a further 3mill euros to traditional arts and another half a million euros to .... you get the picture .... he wants to make the traditional arts amongst the top 3 best funded arts forms in the next 3 to 5 years....... Do we have a political party in ther UK that would make the same commitment ....? full report of the opening in the next issue of EDS!!! Derek Schofield |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:00 PM Derek Schofield wrote: The Minister for the Arts in Ireland _snip_ said that in the last 2 years, he had awarded 5 mill euros to Comhaltas for its development plan .... Captain Birdseye - are you taking notice? That's £3.34 million! $6.5 million! ..... and you want to give Comhaltas your subs and still want to tell efdss members how to spend their money? |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 06 - 02:22 AM John Adams, Whenever criticism of EFDSS (or any public organisation for that matter) is made, the knee-jerk reaction is, more often than not, 'become a member and help change things'. We did, and things remained the same! Our period of membership was an extremely educational one for us; the main thing we got out of it was the knowledge that what went on within the hallowed portals of C# House had little, if anything to do with traditional song and music as we knew it. We might as well have been speaking Mandarin Chinese for all the communication there was between us and the officials and activists with whom we had discussions. A highlight of our learning curve was the night we were requested to organise a singing evening in the basement as part of the A.G.M. knees-up. After a while it became obvious that the situation was that there we were doing our thing in the basement (we were part of the West London Tradition Club at the time) and there were them upstairs doing their thing – and ne'er the twain shall meet! During the evening we were asked to provide a singer to entertain the suits and long frocks in the large hall while they got their breath back – so we sent up our guest, West Clare farmer and fisherman, Micho Russell, a very fine traditional musician and a singer. From the bemused response, he may as well have just stepped out of a space-ship: I think we had encountered what Captain Janeway refers to as a 'parallel universe'. After a while we left EFDSS, having come to the conclusion that what was being promoted had nothing to do with the music we considered 'folk' or 'traditional' – no acrimony, no pique, just a decision on our part to move on. We continued to work with the library; I did some work on the BBC collection, we gave a couple of library lectures and helped put on an event which involved field musicians and a singer we knew. We were proud to have helped produce three cassettes of field recordings for the Library. During this period of non-membership we were probably more active than the average member. One telling incident was when we wrote an article on a Traveller storyteller for Dance and Song and offered to follow it up with three more based on singers and musicians we had recorded. We thought we had made a half-decent job of this until, with one flourish of the illustrator's pen adding a couple of twee drawings, our article was turned into something more suitable for Hamley's Toyshop than for an organisation seriously claiming to be promoting the traditional arts. We were given no say in the matter, so we abandoned any further projects. The crunch came for us with the proposed sale of C# House fiasco which convinced us that the 'Over My Dead Body' school of thought was firmly in control and would remain so for the foreseeable future. We have no reason to believe that things have changed significantly since those balmy days (except then we could get a cup of coffee and a sandwich at C# House. You ask the Cap'n what he expects of the Society; I assume this to be a rhetorical question. Perhaps the first thing it should be doing is to ask whether it does exactly what it says on the tin! Is it acting as a body bearing the title THE ENGLISH FOLK DANCE AND SONG SOCIETY? Is it living up to the legacy left by its founders? I often think that, despite the problems of their having been pioneers in the field, Sharp, Broadwood, Kidson, Grainger and Vaughan Williams had a clearer picture of what was meant by FOLK and TRADITION than we do now. I have to confess that a shudder ran down my spine when I read the suggestion that ballroom dancing be included in EFDSS activities! It has become obvious to me that traditional song and music in the UK (in England at least) has reached a crossroads and that its future depends very much on what we all do now. The Society should not just be part of any discussion on the future of traditional music, it should be leading it. As far as I am concerned, it is fitting that a national body like EFDSS should have a presentable and functional headquarters; I have no problem with their being sited in London, though I do believe that they have to be relevant and accessible to all members, whether they live next-door at 4 Regents Park Road or at 74 Boggart Hole Clough! I question whether C# House is suitable to fulfill such a role. Of course the AGM is not going to respond positively to a bland proposal to sell the House; nor should it. What needs to happen is that a comprehensive plan has to be worked out as to where EFDSS goes from here, and if selling the House is part of the solution, that has to be considered; if not, what are the alternatives. So the library, by far the most important of the Society's achievements, is not going to be housed in the main hall; fair enough, what actions are proposed to solve the problems that now exist? Has any thought been given to developing a comfortable, accessible and expanding sound library? On a personal note, we have now reached the stage in our lives that we need to consider what is to happen to our collection; should we decide to donate it to the Library, will it be turned away as others have? On the question of publications, in many ways, what with the Greig-Duncan, the Sam Henry and the eagerly awaited Carpenter collections, there has never been so much traditional song available to those interested – wouldn't the Grainger collection be a magnificent addition to these? As you say, all this needs finance, and the way to raise that is to build on what you have, With respect; it is not fitting that you ask a non-member what he expects of the Society. As an official, you should know what is expected of an organisation bearing the title ENGLISH FOLK DANCE AND SONG SOCIETY. If you are satisfied that your house is in order and that the Society is fulfilling its role, it is up to you to set out your stall and attract us non members so that we cease to be such. Comhaltas - B.A.Scouser - unfortunately they don't restrict their activities to music; they also present a form of singing that has as much to do with the tradition as their version of traditional dance does (or not - as the case may be). Irish Traditional Music Archive - We were also at the opening of the new premises and have been supporters of the Archive for quite a few years, and we know that the grants that have been given have been got by hard work on the part of Nicholas Carolan, his staff and committee fighting every inch of the way to have Irish traditional music recognised as a serious art form - therby hangs an valuable lesson! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Alan Day Date: 23 Dec 06 - 04:26 AM It is only by discussion and constructive critisism that members of a committee can make progress,it is very easy to sit on a fence as many do and with hindsight say what should or should not have been done.I have nothing but praise for people like John Adams who give up a hell of a lot of their valuable time to put back into a society or activity that they have enjoyed all their lives.Many who do this are ex proffessionals and can do a fine job.My concern is that although well meaning some cannot and reading between the lines John would agree with this.Also an organisation like this dealing with considerable sums of money.Is anyone accountable? Could it be possible that another ten years down the line we can say that all that money and now nothing? You mention Jim that Ballroom Dancing fills you with horror Why? Ballroom and Tap Dancing are traditional forms of dancing.They are successful at Folk Festivals as workshops.Come on Jim surely you are not getting snobbish over dancing that has been a progression from Folk Dances.If it helps to fill up Cecil sharp House creates an interest in other activituies going on there, it is progress,the very thing you are asking for. Al |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:19 AM Jim. In considering your post I don't find anything which is untrue or even undeserved. In fact, I can quote similar instances and my own story with the efdss closely matches your own. However, you are describing something which happened decades ago. While people who have had experiences such as you and I can quote (and there are hundreds of them) constantly parade that history then people like me who are still trying to get the Society on the right track will struggle. It's like being thought to be a criminal because your brother robbed a bank thirty years ago. That was then and I'm not that person anyway. You talk about communication and you're not wrong, but things change. Here am I, talking up the Society to the best of my ability, vulnerable to the whims of a potentially global audience and even vulnerable to the disapproval of my colleagues on the National Council if I say the wrong things. I'm debating the Society in an open way, sometimes a bit defensively I'll own, but not in a dishonest or disingenuous way. In the six years I've been on National Council I think I've made a difference. In the two years I have left before I become ineligible for re-election I hope to achieve even more. I see the Society taking steady if often painful steps towards being the organisation it should be, servicing many of the areas that are not being effectively addressed by others on what is a large and diverse scene. It's hard and sometimes you make it harder. I am dispirited when people trot out old history like you have. I am dispirited when people concentrate on what we get wrong instead of what we get right. I am dispirited when the EFDSS is constantly measured against people who have more financial and moral support. (I'm so dispirited I'm going to have to drink a lot of whisky over Christmas!) Former Chief Officer Phil Wilson addressing the AGM six years ago gave them an option of closing the doors, winding up the Society, considering the job done as far as we could do it and marching off into the sunset. It's still an option I suppose, but if the Society stopped operating what would replace it? Is anyone rushing forward to institute an English National Folk Archive such as the Irish have? Is anyone trying to address education on a national level? Is anyone dedicated to nationally publishing a wide range of English folk titles plus a magazine and research journal? If they are then great - I can stop banging my head against this wall and concentrate on my tune research and audio archive. I wish I could start from somewhere else but the letter I have in my file, from Kim Howells when he was Minister at the DCMS, saying that there was no funding for such as the Doc Rowe Collection and we should approach the EFDSS for assistance because that's the sort of thing they do convinced me that I have to start from where we are. On your point about the library, yes, we have plans to expand. We have invested money in a capital project. We have a volunteer director driving the project (and bloody marvellous she is too!). We have architects plans which look really exciting. We have a strategy to raise the funding. Given the competition and the certainty that the Olympics will soak up the available funding I don't know what our likelyhood of success is. There are myriad difficulties in our path, but we're putting the effort in and have been for some time. I don't blame you for giving up on the Society but I haven't and it would be helpful if people like you (ie. with your stature and experience) didn't periodically pull the rug out from underneath my feet with old news. There's more I could say but I've been boring enough so I'll lighten up and go Christmas shopping. J |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Ruth Archer Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:58 AM While what Jim Carroll says about the hard work of those at the Irish Traditional Music Archive to achieve their grants is no doubt spot on, it's still not really comparing like with like, is it? Irish traditional culture is treated with far more respect in Ireland by the powers-that-be than can be said of English tradtional culture, which often seems to be viewed by ministers and grant-making bodies in this country as outdated and irrelevant at best, and a bit of an embarrassment at worst. You can work your buttocks off to achieve grants, but if those holding the purse strings do not value what you do it's so much piddling in the wind. I suspect that the reasons for the prioritisation of Irish traditional culture have less to do with romantic notions of national pride, and a lot more to do with an acknowledgement of the significant role traditional music and dance plays in tourism and therefore in the economy. Of course this is probably a circular argument, and someone who knows a lot more than me will turn up in a bit and say, "Ah - but how did Irish music and dance achieve that tourism profile to begin with? Government investment!" Feel free to educate me. I'm not trying to offer solutions. It would be brilliant if one day we had a well-resourced centre such as the one recently opened in Dublin. It would be wonderful if Tessa Jowell demonstrated a commitment to traditional culture by turning up at prestige events - or even just by chucking some money around. But there are all kinds of reasons why that's not likely to happen, and why it's important to support the people within EFDSS that are trying to make changes from within. I think this is a very important time for the society, and deciding its future role, and how best to carry out that role, with a council of volunteers and little support from the government, cannot be easy. BTW, Kim Howells should be shot. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: The Sandman Date: 23 Dec 06 - 02:36 PM John Adams, yes I am happy to give comhaltas my subs[Although i am still critical of them.]I dont wish to tell efdss members how to spend their money , I was trying to answer your question, perhaps you would answer mine, how much does efdss recieve from the sports council,and how does that compare to the money spent by efdss on folk song. the EFDSS is supposed to be promoting english folk dance and international folk song,and in my opinion could improve what its doing , you asked me my opinion ,I gave it.,if you dont like it ok but I am not telling efdss members how their money should be spent, You need to ask yourself why ex members, are ex members. knowing you as a performer who is interested in song ,i am sure your doing your best to improve things,all i am trying to do is get a discussion going, out of which improvements can be made, I hope MY criticism is constructive.DickMiles |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: The Sandman Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:18 PM Ruth Archer ,isnt putting on song concerts at sharp house, promoting english and international folk song,which is part of e,f,d.ss .point of being. in the days when they ran successful folk festivals[which they did for many years]they did it because they rightly thought, they were promoting folk dance and song,[why the change of view],if other people can do it and make it commercially viable,efdss if they were more business like should be able to too.,and make money out of it. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Ruth Archer Date: 23 Dec 06 - 04:47 PM But my feeling, Dick, and I think it's also the feeling of John Adams from what he's said, is that so many dedicated organisations have emerged who can do the job really well. Yes, festivals promote folk dance and song, but surely when EFDSS were doing it there simply weren't that many festivals or festival organisations around? So they were filling a certain gap. Now that there are something like 350 folk festivals in the country every year, why does EFDSS need to do one? What would it accomplish? It would be one amongst many. Plus many of those organisations have year-round teams devoted to doing that job well...if EFDSS was doing that, wouldn't it detract from their ability to do other things? I'm also not sure about the commercially viable part. Most festivals I've ever been involved with aimed to pay for themselves - cover the staffing costs, arrtists, and infrastructure. Any leftover cash (if there is any) usually gets re-invested into the following year's event. So the idea that this might prove to be a revenue stream for the society seems unlikely. Running one-off events and concerts would present similar issues in terms of whether they'd actually generate new revenue, and whether the amount generated would make it worthwhile...So again, I'd wonder what the point was. There's also the issue of these events presumaby taking place at C# House, and feeding into that sense of London-centricity which is off putting in terms of attracting new members in the regions. As I said earlier, I think the society (and this is purely a personal opinion) would do well to be working on a more strategic level: trying to attract large-scale funding for the House and VWML to improve the facilities and turn it into a signnificant national resource; raising the profile of traditional artforms with the DCMS, trying to get some long-term financial support and acknowledgement; and partnering delivery organisations in the regions, moving toward a cohesive national strategy for education and development. Well, that's what I'd do if somebody died and made me king. :) |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:59 PM Thanks Ruth Archer. That's a very cogent synopsis of the pertinent issues. (note to self: Hope I get an un-dictionary for Christmas). Dick, To answer your queries, I think the grant from Sport England is in the region of £15,000 but I haven't the time to find the published yearly report with the accounts as I'm trying to pack my bags for a trip to Australia on Monday. I'm not quite sure why you think the figure to be relevant. I don't think it helps you very much as it's just an input into the education budget and doesn't necessarily map directly onto the Society's investment in promoting dance. Likewise, if you look at the accounts, there is no budget line for 'dance' and similarly no budget line for 'song'. There's no reason why they would be broken down in that way. So it's difficult to give you a meaningful answer. If you remember my previous post, I stated that over the past two years we had published five song books and a song CD as opposed to one dance book and two dance CDs. Logic would dictate that we had invested more in song than in dance in that period. There will be other comparisons buried in our activities but it would be very time consuming to extract them. So that's the best answer I can give you. With regard to the idea of promoting song, I'll add to Ms Ruth Archer's comments and say that a concert at C#H doesn't constitute 'promoting song'. It entertains a limited number of people who are able to attend a London concert. It doesn't improve their singing skills and although it might give them some songs to copy it doesn't really add to their repertoire. The same could be said of dances which is how you started this thread. When _I_ think about promoting song I think about a number of resourcing initiatives like providing singers with books of raw material, CDs of performers who illustrate style and technique, enabling workshops, preferably nationwide, where people can address things like voice development, style, repertoire, performance, recording techniques, etc etc. Similar thing with dance. In this, it is important to not just assist people directly, but to also 'train the trainers' so that the skills permeate further into the culture. It's the old adage, "give them wheat and you feed then today, teach them to grow wheat and you feed them for a lifetime' - corny (forgive the pun) but true. This is where I personally want the Society to concentrate its efforts and at all levels from school children to pensioners. To be honest, this is the sort of issue I expected you to raise, rather than a quantitative analysis of how much we are spending on one or the other. J |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: dermod in salisbury Date: 23 Dec 06 - 06:07 PM In the light of this most interesting discussion, I suggest efdss policymakers agree on two watchwords to decide their way ahead. Preservation. Participation. If anything impedes, bin it. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: johnadams Date: 23 Dec 06 - 06:59 PM dermod in salisbury. In the light of this most interesting discussion, I suggest efdss policymakers agree on two watchwords to decide their way ahead. Preservation. Participation. I'll buy that! ...and to keep the alliteration going add in proliferation because we want to expand and develop the traditional arts and not merely to participate in what we've preserved. And if I can just make a comment, we have decided our way ahead and this has guided my responses within this thread. J |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Mo the caller Date: 24 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM I'm not a singer, but I found the 'Singer and the Song' series in the magazine, interesting and informative. details here, and listento the song |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Fidjit Date: 24 Dec 06 - 10:30 AM Oh listen to yourselves. Here we go again having a shy at "Aunt Sally" Most of us missing badly. Like the theme about the dancers on the front cover of EDS a while ago. Squeaky Liz, Which side of the tracks are you from? Camden town. Fights. Pee-ing in the street. I wouldn't expect much else. I used to do gigs in the Dublin Castle, just down the road from C# house, before it became a rock music venue. I do agree that the house is a forboding place. Spooky even. The furniture in the Sharps Folk club must be from the original inventry. The toilets the same (Better to pee in the street) However they The people at the house are doing a fine job albeit not at the top of the present range of whats "IN" on the folk scene wherever your centre of the scene happens to be. But, just look at what they have coming up on thier coming program (even at The Albert Hall!) Get up off your arses and get there. A ten minute walk? No problem. Fights? Whatever. You have to be a member to have a say in whats going to happen. So rejoin and have your say. Chas |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Fidjit Date: 24 Dec 06 - 10:34 AM Oh yes. And A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to one and all. Chas |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: GUEST Date: 24 Dec 06 - 11:55 AM John, I apologise if my comments have spoiled your Christmas in any way; that certainly was not my intention. Truth to tell, there is never a good time to make such criticisms, but I didn't start this thread, I had no intention of joining it and I came to it when it was well underweigh. My comments were not meant to be a blanket condemnation of The Society; in fact I believe that without EFDSS's existance the future of traditional music in England would be very bleak. I would very much like to believe that my somewhat negative experience is an example of the past and that things have changed; believe me, I am very willing to be convinced, and if it is so, everybody involved in traditional music will have benefited immensely. If I have been over-harsh or unfair in my comments I apologise unreservedly. Perhaps it is time you started trumpeting your achievements from the rooftops; potential supporters like me really need to know what is happening. I have the greatest respect for many members of the Society I have known, (and worked with, in some cases) people like Nibs and Jean Mathews, who I also valued as friends, also Roy Judge, who was a pleasure to meet and discuss with, are examples who spring to mind immediately. In the past, the work of members like A L Lloyd and Pat Shaw have very much contributed to my knowledge and enjoyment of traditional music, as did the Folk Song Journal editor, David Atkinson's recent book on the English Ballad. Their and many other's contributions are the up side of the work done by Society members. They didn't get a mention in my over-long letter because they didn't fall under the subject in hand, namely Cecil Sharp House. My comments on that still stand; as far as I am concerned suitable premises are, or should be, a means to an end - that of the promotion dissemination and progression of traditional music. I believe that those who made C# House an end in itself did great damage to both the music and to The Society. On the subject of an English National Folk Archive, yes, some of us did rush forward and try to establish one, and we succeeded to some extent with the help of The National Sound Archive. The last manifestation of this was the 'Bright Golden Store' project which is covered on the British Library web-site. I have long believed that the answer to many of the VWML problems lies in co-operation between the Library and the National Sound Archive – here's hoping! If it is already happening, let's hear about it. The Irish Traditional Music Archive. Yes, it is true that things here in Ireland are very different regarding traditional music, culturally, socially, politically and economically; I certainly did not claim otherwise, nor did I raise the subject, Derek Schofield did, and you followed it up, I reacted to both of your comments. If somebody had told me twenty years ago, when we were regular visitors here rather than permanent residents, that Irish Traditional music would be enjoying the popularity it now is, I would have suggested that they were 'away with the fairies' as they say over here.. Whatever the reasons, it appears that the music will survive for at least a couple of generations (not too sure about the songs!). The establishment of a national archive has been an uphill slog for Nicholas Carolan and his team and the public money has been earned by bitter fighting (sometimes with people from within the traditional music community). Those involved have persevered, withstood the 'diddley die music' sneers of some of the media and the indifference of others and have achieved what they have inch by inch; though there is still a long way to go. A recent supplement to the Irish Times entitled 'Music In Ireland' comprehensively covered the classics, ballet, opera, country and western, middle-of-the-road, rock, jazz etc., and managed to totally ignore traditional music completely, so there are still plenty of hearts and minds to be won. The lessons to be learned that I referred to lie in how what has been achieved, has been, and I would stress that much of this lies in treating traditional music as a serious art form, a severe shortcoming in some quarters of the folk community in the UK, I do not include anybody involved in this present debate, I hasten to add. Kim Howell is certainly no friend to traditional music, but he, and those who think like him have been given plenty of ammunition by people involved in traditional music who have consistently refused to take it seriously – do I hear cries of 'finger-in-ear', killjoy, purist – please feel free anybody and make my point for me. The mantra often trotted out claims that the music is to be enjoyed and not taken seriously – as if one is an antithesis of the other. Nobody is going to take us seriously if we don't take ourselves so – not enough to give us money anyway. It is this that has made the difference in Ireland, god knows, we don't have a generous, culturally inclined government; we have our own share of Kim Howells thank you very much. Alan Day, I certainly did not say that ballroom dancing fills me with horror; what consenting adults get up to in their spare time is completely their own business. It is an activity for which my feelings are totally neutral. What I said was that is should have no place in EFDSS activities – aren't the waters surrounding phrases like 'traditional' and 'folk' muddied enough without adding another activity which can by no stretch of the imagination be described as either? Ballroom dancing does not even have the dubiously opportunistic merit of drawing much needed young blood into traditional activities. Judging by the attitude of young people I know, some of whom may or may not be attracted to traditional song or dance, and certainly may be persuaded to take up an instrument, it would have the exact opposite effect. Another over-long posting – sorry folks. Seasons Greetings to all – please have a whiskey on me John. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Fidjit Date: 24 Dec 06 - 05:29 PM Dancing at the house. So whats wrong or untraditional about Ballroom Dancing? My mum did the Valetta at the, Tottenham Royal, as it was known as then, when I was four years old. I also remember that there were American Square dances at the house too in the fiffties. Now if American Square dances get in then so does Ballroom dancing. Come on we've had everything else there. Irish Step, Sufolk tap, Morris, Molly, Rapper, Sword, English Country, you name it. Bring on Bruce Forsyth. Now there's a tradittion. Enjoy it. Chas |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Alan Day Date: 24 Dec 06 - 06:40 PM Sorry if I mis-represented you Jim, but there are many who feel that a line has to be drawn somewhere where dance is concerned,perhaps you are one.Why? Some would draw it at Playford.Some would rule out made up Country Dances which are not traditional.Some Ballroom Dances are traditional.American Swing and Rock and Roll is now traditional.A line cannot be drawn, there is no reason to do so.Lovers of all types of dance need to be encouraged,they are the future. A Happy Xmas to you all Al |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: GUEST Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM In which case, you need to remove the words 'folk' or 'traditional' from your organisations and activities - both of which have perfectly understandable and well documented definitions; in this way you will be doing 'exactly what it says on the tin'. Of course, the problem with this is you will then be entering the applications for grants bunfight in direct competition with all other dance and song organisations - and no responsible grant-giving body is going to take seriously an organisation which is not clear about its own identity - unfortunately you don't get grants just for enjoying yourself. The other alternative is to re-define the terms officially (as did the International Folk Music Council); but to do this, you will have to achieve a consensus among all involved. I don't know if you have read the thread on this forum entitled (something like)'What is traditional folk music', if not, I suggest you do. It indicates the confusion that has risen up around our activities. The Irish Traditional Music Council is not the only organisation to receive large grants for work in traditional music over here, there was a list of others recently published and the over-riding factor in all of them is they do exactly what they say they do. This has long been a problem in England, and one of the reasons I and thousands like me stopped going to 'folk clubs' - we no longer knew what music we would be listening to - Fidjit's posting is a perfect example of this. Sorry - I wouldn't walk down the road to King George's Park for a free Bruce Forsyth show - now Sheila Stewart - that's another matter. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: The Sandman Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM to john adams,. I am not a mamber of efdss,however I would be prepared to sponsor with a prize of 200 sterling, a competition for traditional unaccompanied singing[PATICIPANTS UNDER 18]. AND COME from IRELAND, AT MY OWN EXPENSE,to judge it . if you or efdss are interested ,please contact me here at mudcat.Dick Miles. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Fidjit Date: 25 Dec 06 - 09:15 AM Jim Carrol We all have our own hang-ups. I wouldn't go to a BF thingy either. Dick Miles Don't bother. We already have Mike Harding buggering that up for the BBC. Alan Day A Dance is a Dance Enjoy what you enjoy Chas |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: GUEST Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM Cap'n Wonder who will decide the winner and with what authority? Why vandalise English traditional music in the same way Comhaltas had vandalised Irish music. Surprisingly enough, I find myself in total agreement with Fidgit on this one. Would reccommend you spend your money on a good book on folksong, Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Folkiedave Date: 25 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM Me too. Dave Eyre, Bookseller. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: The Sandman Date: 25 Dec 06 - 03:09 PM logically,if efdss can hold a song writing competition,why shouldnt they hold a competition for traditional unaccompanied singing. 2.I dont think the bbc award,is for traditional unaccompanied singing. 3.I am not concerned about your opinions,only efdss and john adams opinions[my offer is genuine and I feel it is a better way of using my money to promote english song,than joining efdss] 4,I know quite alot about unaccompanied traditional singing.,and am qualified as well as anyone to judge[bearing in mind all judgements have a certain degree of subjectivity] 5, I dont need anyone to tell me how to spend my money. 6.I have loads of good folksong books. 7 . I suggested that I should decide the winner[ Iam considered by many to be a good unaccompanied singer]however that is open to negotiation between myself and EFDSS,if they are interested. there are plenty of other good unaccompanied singers and I am sure we[EFDSS AND MYSELF] could NEGOTIATE that. 8.I am not spending, efdss members money but my own,so please let me decide how I wish to spend my money .DickMiles. |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: Folkiedave Date: 25 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM I have loads of good folksong books In that case, Dave - bookbuyer............just in case you understand.......... Dave |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: oggie Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:07 PM In the past few months this forum has knocked (in no particular order) - EFDSS BBC Mike Harding, Folk Awards etc Peter Kennedy Ewan MacColl to name but a few. Why? and why can't we seem to get on with making and sharing our love of this music (whatever it may be, that's another set of rants) and concentrate on spreading and keeping that enthusiasm and knowledge base alive and vital. I come and go in this forum and every so often I feel that 'if that's what it's come to I'll go and watch our local council bicker instead'. All the best (and season's greetings) Steve Ogden |
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Subject: RE: efdss dances at Sharp House From: The Sandman Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM I am attempting to help EFDSS, by a specific donation, this I feel will help english folk song,AND GENERATE ENTHUSIASM and knowledge,and hopefully a love of this music. Dick Miles |
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