BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST,Drunken Fish Worshiper
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

Those statistics were probabably taken from the divine mouth of our Lord Fishie. Beware the fish!
*hiccup*

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:39 PM

No answer to my question about the source of those statistics, so I assume that most of them came out of GUEST's overactive imagination.

Don Firth

P. S. Got a couple guns. Got ammo. Got 'em for target shooting back in the late Sixties. I'm very good. But the likelihood of my ever having to use one of them against another human being--and then, only in the extreme case of defending my own life or the life of loved ones--is next to nil.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:34 AM

McG, your post at 19 Dec, 7pm, perfectly put into words my own concern about the US, and probably summed up the thoughts of many others who criticise the US on specific issues.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:04 AM

And with regard to comparing me to a Bushite.... fuck you.

Talk about childish. I said your BEHAVIOR was akin to classical BuShite-ism, which it is.

I have made my point, and you have seconded it.

Not sure by what pervese logic you've convinced yourself this nonsensical statement is true.

Another difference is, Mick, to date I've never considered you to be in the same class as Teribus, et.al.- but in this I was obviously mistaken.

Happy Holidays.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:53 AM

I saw "When the Levees Broke" last summer. Or I should say, I watched as much of it as I could take.

My sister-in-law who teaches in NO, whom I spoke with at Thanksgiving, is burnt to a crisp.

The folks who stayed need fresh troops, and badly.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:28 PM

Sources of those statistics, please.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:28 PM

ahhh...must've imagined it...

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:01 PM

Talking to yourself there Bill. That was a blank post you responded to.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:55 PM

"Buy guns. And ammo."

...and shoot who?

When was the problem of no guns ever solved with more guns?

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:31 PM

Death penalty? Why are you people going on about the death penalty, as if due process of law exists any more? Here's your process of law:

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- New Orleans police lined up "like at a firing range" and fatally shot an unarmed man in the back as he fled from them in the days after Hurricane Katrina swept ashore, a witness to the shooting told CNN....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/18/nopd.shooting/

Hopefully a lot more people will start coming forward now. The mercenaries and cops are rumored to have killed many, many people this way in New Orleans. Just target practice. And now we have the gun-hating Democrats coming in to office. Great. Grab all the guns.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1,500,000 people were killed by their own government.

In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, 20,000,000 people were killed by their own government.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20,000,000 people were killed by their own government.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13,000,000 people were killed by their own government.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 people were killed by their own government.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 people were killed by their own government.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, 1,000,000 people were killed by their own government.

Governments that torture, kill and try to disarm can't be trusted. Buy guns. And ammo.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:29 PM

That link I gave was faulty. This should work - When the Levees Broke - a Requiem in Four Acts - moral, always check your links in Preview.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:41 PM

Big Mick - Perhaps you would like to reply to my previous post. I believe I deserve clarification regarding your personal attack.

"Big Mick - Please don't be so vague.

I don't have an agenda but I'd like to know what you think my agenda might be.

As far as being ignorant... well, hmmm...

I'm not an authority on much of anything so maybe you can be just a little more specific about that comment. Do you think I am generally ignorant or ignorant about a specific topic? "

Instead of answering my question, you deflect it by being overly vague and misleading.

I would like to add that I have not posted anything about, "beheading coming as capital punishment so that some group of international businessmen can begin harvesting our organs for sale, under the pretext of the crap she calls her political views on the internet."

Your comments are unfounded (to say the least).

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:45 PM

Well said, McGrath!

And a lot of Americans feel that same disappointment and sense of betrayal when we know what the country could do and should do, and because our so-called leaders are either corrupt or incompetent--or both--it just doesn't happen. And how did we get such leaders? The problem, I would say, is a lack of that informed electorate that Thomas Jefferson said was essential to the preservation of democracy. The apparent fact that all too many Americans are either unable or unwilling to think beyond bumper-stickers and sound-bites does not bode well for the future.

Jefferson also said, "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."

I don't really know where this country is going right now. But I'm not ready to write the country off yet. I have cautious hopes for 2008, but I am also somewhat apprehensive. Naught to do but politick as strenuously as I can and hope for the best--or at least something better.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:40 PM

Actually, Iraq just executed 13 prisoners today--I'm sure just to make El Presidente look good by comparison.

Hey! If capital punishment is good enough fer Texas, it's good enough fer Eyerack.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST,guest 6.58
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:31 PM

I didn't call the asshole a bully - hey I called him a buffoon. But no worries he is an ashole without a passport.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:14 PM

Hey Mr. Macho Mickster there.

Some of us know you are lying about there being only one guest in this thread. Some of us know you are just trying to manipulate the rest of the forum into believing that all the guests on this thread are me, the guest you love to hate.

But you know what, Mr. Macho Mickster?

It ain't just me calling you a bully anymore. Now LOTS of Mudcat folks are calling you a bully.

Wonder why that is?

Your response?

Only MN Monster/Matriot, etc etc etc calls me a bully, and you can't believe her because she is a bully.

Uh huh, sure.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:00 PM

Most times when it looks like people being anti-American. Mick, you should recognise it as disappointment and a sense of betrayal.

We see what is a great country in so many many ways; but one way and another it seems to let itself down; and that lets down the whole world, because in a way you Americans are the whole world, uprooted and transplanted to a New World, and armed with the wealth and resources to keep it a paradise and make it a paradise, and an example.

That sense of betrayal hurts, and hurt comes out as anger sometimes. And stuff like this feeds into that.

I've just finished watching the four part documentary When the Levees Broke, about Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath, shown over two evenings on BBC Four. And the most shocking thing about it was not so much the disaster itself, but the aftermath.

The one thing we thought we knew about America was that, when push came to shove, it could take care of business, and could move mountains. And somehow it just didn't happen, and it kept on not happening. And the most heartbreaking thing, watching the anger - and sharing it - was that they weren't angry because they hated America, but because they loved America. And these people represented one of the most greatest and most precious cities in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:58 PM

Mick do you have wet dreams where you are in the A Team? Actually buffoon don't answer that.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:40 PM

For 99 people in 100, I should think Bobert's point was plain enough. But going by the post that preceded it, I'm wondering if even ole Bobert might be a bit too suble for you, Mick? Son?

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:31 PM

Thanks, Mick, that means a lot comin' from the chief mudcommie... (spit)...

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:27 PM

I am not sure what your point is, Bobert. But is sure was cute in that cutesy little country boy thing you do, son.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:24 PM

Well, gol danged!!!

Let me tell ya' all what makes America great (spit...)...

It's lots of guns for anyone who want's 'um an' if you don't, go back to sissy Europe where ya' came from... (spit)...

It's capital punishment... Hey, it ain't 'sposed to be like a friggin' picnic... That's why it's called capital punishment, gol danged it... It ain't a friggin' hobby... (spit), thank you...

It's about killin' off or incarceratin' as many black men as possible 'cause everyone knows all they want to do is shoot dope and steal yer TV's... (spit...)... And if they don't like bein' killed then it's too friggin' bad... They should have been born white... (spit)...

It's about keeping "them" folks in the ghettoes where they obviously belong... (spit)... Shoot, if they din't want to live in them ghettoes then they shouldn't have been born in 'um... (spit)... I mean, this ain't friggin rocket surgery. or nuthin'...

And it's about doin' whatever you want to whoever you whenever you want 'cause last time I looked there was 13 red and white stripes and 50 danged friggin' white stars on that blue background... (spit)... Know what I mean??? If ya don't, then get yer commie ass outta here...

(spit..)...

Bunch of washrag wimps as far as I can see...

Pass the ammo...

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:10 PM

Thank you, Greg. You just made my real point. When idiots, like Teribus and others, only response to posts on the North of Ireland is to resort to "Plastic Paddy" rhetoric, I am sure you will jump in and point out their childishness. I have made my point, and you have seconded it.

And with regard to comparing me to a Bushite.... fuck you.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:52 PM

Mick is just being childish.

If the criticism is valid, the source - domestic or foreign - doesn't signify.

His "kill the messanger" approach reminds me of the standard Bushite response to criticism:

1. You're an enemy of America.
2. But Bill Clinton .......

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST,stigWeard
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 04:54 PM

That GUEST was me - I've lost my cookie!

stigWeard

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 04:54 PM

Hey the USA isn't all bad - you gave us Bruce Springsteen, Paul Auster, Arrested Development, Twin Peaks, Zan McLeod and Curb Your Enthusiasm - result!

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM

I am not arguing that I think capital punishment is civilized. Nor is Guantanamo Detention Center a capital punishment site, Peter. It is an abomination, we have no disagreement on that. I would suggest that we will see an end to this as our political system pulls one of its evolutionary corrections over these next 2 years. But both of these are simply attempts on your part to lump a bunch of different arguments under on banner, which is to attack anything you can about the USA. But I would point out something to you. Even in those States where capital punishment still exists, there is a lengthy process, open, and judicially guided that governs its use. This is why it takes so long to execute someone. Texas, in my opinion, is the most barbaric State in its use.

While the UK doesn't officially sanction the death penalty, the studies, reports, and commissions are shedding more and more light on how they have been complicit in the murders of any number of Irish Catholics in the North of Ireland. Your government apparently feels that murder by the State is better left in dark corners, using security services, and intelligence services, and allowing surrogates to carry out the penalty. I think I prefer to fight the battle in the open. The recent DNA activists have dealt a number of body blows to the capital punishment supporters. I hope they are successful in destroying the legitimacy of the death penalty. That is one death I would like to see.

Before you go off on a tangent, I am not anti UK. What I am is against folks like you using any excuse to attack the US. Had you left this conversation on the topic of the death penalty, it would have been fine. But you started it as a pretext to just attack the uncivilized USA.

Mick

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:20 PM

Teribus doesn't like the US army, I wonder why ?

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:17 PM

No McGrath, I can't agree with your sentiments regardless of how much I'd like to believe the Supreme Court will take care of the violence.

The culture of violence in the US is more intense, and has permeated more of the society in the US than anything I've seen in my life time, or in other countries I've travelled to in Europe and Central America (even at the height of the contra wars, etc).

The levels of murder, domestic violence, violent assaults, etc have gone through the roof in the US, as have the populations of shelters (for the homeless, for victims of domestic violence, for foster children and orphans) and prisons, as some have mentioned here.

The middle class and the mainstream media sort of collude in their denial of all this, because a lot of people are making money from this ever-increasing level of violent entertainment. And the number of parents who either buy the stuff or turn their head while their kids find it elsewhere, are paying to consume increasingly violent media that exploits our kids, and comforts those who are as addicted to violent media as they are their porn.

A lot of violent video games are developed in conjunction with the US military. Military celebrations/memorials/heroicizing work to cover up the torture (no tribunals to compete with the celebrations and memorial days), and the gutting of veterans and military benefits, the poverty the military grunts and their families live in, etc. etc. etc.

Our Supreme Court can't fix that.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:45 PM

"...If this is the criteria that calls into question our being civilized..."

Yes, Mick, for me this is a significant criterion- ie the readiness of a state to kill people in cold blood (quite regardless of whether the process is cruel and discriminatory, which in the US it obviously is). But I'm surprised you bothering to argue the point about "civilised" while the Guantanamo Bay detention centre still exists; the US exploits a cynical process ofits own invention called "rendition," and the Admin is happy to see torture applied "in a just cause".

All of which would be bad enough, except that the US then takes it upon itself to try to impose its values where it has no business to interfere - Vietnam, Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....).

For the record, and as I have said many times, I am ashamed and disgusted when I see the UK trying to ape the US in some of these ways. But thank God, not when it comes to capital punishment.

Barry Finn: BRAVO!

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM

stigweard, while the main points of your post bear some merit, let me make a couple of observations. First, I did not take this personally. As I pointed out, I am making a point about the need of certain posters to take any shot at the US that they can. These self same posters take umbrage at the painting with a broad brush of the UK. When the predictable response happened, I merely made the point. The line that referred to "this so-called "civilised" nation" is what caused the problem. If this is the criteria that calls into question our being civilized, then I suspect that most of the "civilized" nations have no place up on that high horse. This thread was one thing, started under the guise of another. Fortunately, it has evolved into a decent discussion of a practice that needs to be done away, and the sooner the better.

With regard to me being a bully, this is the same poster who sees beheading coming as capital punishment so that some group of international businessmen can begin harvesting our organs for sale, under the pretext of the crap she calls her political views on the internet. She is twisted, has never seen a conspiracy she doesn't like, and a bitter person. She has been bullying anyone who doesn't subscribe to her ravings for years. Each time I call her on this, she immediately starts with nasty rhetoric, usually foul, and belittling me, and anyone who supports me, no matter how little. Then she starts her goofball rants. The problem will be resolved soon, so I don't respond much to her.

With regard to human rights record, this Administration has set back human rights more than any in recent history, aided by the current Administration of the United Kingdom. In the alliance with the UK government they had an experienced partner, given all the practice they have had in oppressing the Catholic population of the North of Ireland. The decent people of the UK, as well as the decent people of the United States, will be years undoing the damage. But make no mistake, it won't be some pompous, self deluded, "I got all the answers and the rest of you are stupid for not seeing it", phony liberal radical on the internet that does the work. It will have to be average folks, struggling to raise families and give them a decent lifestyle, that will bring the needed changes. Until they feel the problem, changes won't come. And they won't come in a flash, but a step at a time.

OK, let's give the stage back to the comedy act. Warning: some of the language in the next act may not be suitable for easily offended ears. I guess I will go back to bullying the masses.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:11 AM

It doesn't appear to me that the problem with the death penalty in the States is because of a particular obsession with violence. The same probably goes for the stuff about guns.

Both those things are much more to do with politics and constitutional arrangements.

Most people in the UK are also in favour of the death penalty, as is the case in the USA. A different political structure here meant that this fact didn't stop it being abolished. I'm grateful for that. Majorities aren't the only thing that matters.

Again, from what I've read, a majority in the USA would actually favour stricter gun controls. What stops that happening is a particular interpretation of a clause in a Constitution written a couple of centuries ago. The same reason the death penalty is still in operation (different clause, same Constitution.)

In time there'll very likely be a Supreme Court that decides that a different interpretation of the Constitution means that "the right to bear arms" should be interpreted in a much more restrictive sense". And very likely it'll also decide that the death penalty is a "cruel and unusual punishment", and so outlawed by the Constitution.

If/when that happens that won't mean that generalisations about how violent America is are any less invalid, or any more valid than they are today.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:22 AM

"Please do not paint us all with the same brush"

Personally I don't, but the world doesn't work like that.

Until the US shows the world that it can negotiate with people it doesn't share a point of view with, can accept violence is not the answer to many of the domestic and international issues facing it, then there is a danger of the demonisation of all US citizens regardless of their viewpoint. The moral immaturity of the boy with the biggest gun in the playground is what scares people around the world.

The death penalty is so difficult for US citizens to deal with because they live in a moral vacuum when it comes to violence. They may well dislike the idea of judicial murder, but cannot vote against it because to admit that violence may not be an answer to the question of how to punish people means that so many of the principles they live when it comes to violent conduct and intent are also morally questionable.

The US could learn from the mistakes of other empires, but without strong moral leadership from either religious or secular sources there is not much chance of that happening. The crime if this is they will condem their children to pay for their lack of moral fibre for tens, if not hundreds of years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:01 AM

And those who think everything is "just fine" with Mudcat censorship and intimidation campaigns of people like me and Shambles and Martin Gibson, etc just haven't been censored...yet.

Most Mudcat members think this bullying, intimidation, and censorship here is the price they have to pay to keep Mudcat going.

Just like many Americans believe we have to torture children in Abu Ghraib in order to win the "war on terror".

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:57 AM

Mudcat is a reflection of the society it exists in. We live in a society ruled by bullies. Mudcat is owned and managed by bullies.

Call it a cheap shot if you want. It is my observation of how American society works, and how Mudcat works. Mudcat management operates a lot like the Bush administration operates, and I've made that comparison before. And it has been deleted.

Mudcat doesn't want the people who post here to know what management is doing either. Here at Mudcat, posts criticizing managment are routinely censored, as is a lot of stuff.

The difference is???

Actually, I think the majority of Americans did vote to send more troops to Iraq, because they voted in a majority of Democrats and Republicans who will vote to do just that in the new year.

As to the uphill battle we fight--yes, indeed we do. But one reason why we can't and will never win is because of delusional Americans who keep voting for militaristic Democrats who keep voting for the war effort, despite their "anti-war" (yeah, sure) sentiments.

Now, if the Democratic party nominates Dennis Kucinich, I might change my tune about the Democratic party. But until then, there is no difference in the tactics and strategies of the Dems or Repubs when it comes to the "war on terror", the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, or the jungles of Columbia...

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:46 AM

"Invisible poster, invisible post" is a good principle, Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:40 AM

"Max, the site owner, is a bully too and so are his forum henchmen."

Unnamed Guest, there was no call to drag Max, this site or anyone else into your gross statement. You have just painted a canvas not worth the cheap brush you used to paint with.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:32 AM

There are many of us here in the US that are opposed not only the death penalty but also to the US's policy of military aggression, the recent invasions of Iraq & Afghanistan, Abu Grahib & Guantanamo, rendition & torture. It may not seem that way to outsiders but we fight an uphill battle. The government doesn't want it's own citizens to know that there is opposition to their policies never mind the rest of the world that they could care less about. Look at the present hype about how the citizens voted for more troops in the support of the present troops in Iraq. Look at the laws being passed to quite the outspoken. The majority of the nation voted against the war & for it's end. Please do not paint us all with the same brush, though I understand why you might. Even though our law of the land calls for an armed overthrow when & if it's not ruled by & for it's people, it's people doesn't have anymore what it's founders had, brains, balls & prince-ables. Yes, we've had it good for so long that it's really hard to fight it & there are still as much to fight for as there is to fight against.
There are two things going on here, 1 when you controll the thinking of people you don't need to worry about their actions & 2 an oppressed people won't fight back as long as there's a glimmer of hope. Both of these are changing lately.

None are guilty of the sins of their fathers, unless they repeat the sins.

Many nations, kingdoms & empires were founded & built upon the trampled human & civil rights of others as well as their own & there are only a few that can be proud that they didn't. So we may be one of the more recent but we are not at all alone.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:25 AM

Also, the majority of American Catholics I know are pro-death penalty, with the exception of the pacifist, anti-war faction of Catholics which is now very, very small.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

Interesting points you make stigWeard, and I am in wholehearted agreement with them.

Trouble is, when I expressed those same sentiments regarding the connections between the culture of violence, the US military/industrial establishment, and the perpetuation of violence and war as foreign policy in a Memorial Day thread years ago, I was made persona non gratis by Mr. Macho Mick, who loves his guns and thinks we should all worship the military.

And Big Mick is not an American anomaly. I have a brother in law just like him. Votes Democratic party tickets, strong union supporter, demands everyone RESPECT the military (in my brother in law's case, he served in Korea), is church going (in a holier than thou sort of way), volunteers for charity work. And is a huge bully. A lot like Big Mick. There are millions of men like this in the US.

So I wouldn't hold out much hope for us here. Considering how much power Big Mick has in this forum, and how easily and quickly he gained it here by being a bully. Max, the site owner, is a bully too and so are his forum henchmen.

So why anyone would be surprised at Big Mick's comments is beyond me. Any rational attempts at dissuading people like him from their deeply held beliefs and machismo values will be met with nothing but contempt.

Not that I think any other culture is less violent or worships machismo and bullying any less than the US does. I don't. But when you've got the most guns, money and lawyers, as the US does, you win.

The vast majority of American men here is Mudcat talk a good political talk, but they ain't walkin' it as we found out quickly after 9/11. They aren't anti-war, they are against wars where we lose.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:00 AM

Mick's ire at the US bashing that goes on here is understandable, but I believe taking insults against your country personally is a bit of a mistake. As what some would call 'a Brit' (althought I don't think of myself this way) I could take deep offence at some of the posts on the 'cat who blame every person who resides on our island for the sins of their fathers, but as the posters don't actually know me or my opinions what's the point? We often have far more beliefs in common that could at first be supposed.

But Mick's belligerence underlies what I believe is a major fault with many western societies, but is more evident in the domestic and foreign policy of the US than most, and the death penalty is a symptom of this fault.

This is the ingrained belief that violence (state and personally invoked) is an answer to so many problems. This acceptance of violence in the USA precludes it (in the eyes of much of the world) of having any moral integrity, and thus makes many people across the world hate the US. You only have to look at the threads about gun control to see how ingrained the belief in violence as a lifetyle choice is, and this is reflected in the USA's use of the death penalty which is unique in the western world for it's use of judical murder as a punishment.

Mick rightly comments on the actions of the British Empire in the colonial nations, but the parallel must be disturbing to modern residents of the US. Many Britons who were never involved in any of these actions because they were not born or were too young are still regarded as the enemy by the ancestors of the people who were oppressed by previous generations. If US citizens want their unborn children to be posting to Mudcat in future years without Abu Grahib, Guantanamo and Iraq to be constantly trawled up as evidence of their collective guilt then they really need to address their culture of violence now, before it's too late.

There's no better place to start than by getting rid of the death penalty.

stigWeard

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 03:29 AM

As a law maker the idiot should consult a transplant surgeon first. In the US a transplant of an organ is "usually" not exceptable from a person serving a prison sentence(I did say "usually"). It's just to risky, maybe in the future but not now. One was offererd to my transplant team & was flat out rejected & it was at a point when I had ony a couple of days left to wait.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:34 AM

We're likely to see a lot of "botched" executions coming up. China's coming under increasing pressure for their "organ harvesting" practices, and the U.S. has the most people in prison of any country in the world, so why not just make the U.S. the planet's primary organ donor country? They've been trying for at least ten years to move to the guillotine, which doesn't pollute the organs with drugs or destroy them with electricity:

Georgia lawmaker Doug Teper (Democrat) has proposed a bill to replace the state's electric chair with the guillotine. Teper's reasoning? It would allow for death-row inmates as organ donors, he says, since the "Blade makes a clean cut and leaves vital organs intact."

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/nwoguil3.html

Just botch a few executions, propose the more "humane" guillotine, then let the lawmakers go through the motions of "realizing" the guillotine doesn't damage organs, so let's save the children, etc. And as a bonus, the American people get a peek at the Reign of Terror that's in the future. When our turn comes to step up to the guillotine for our political beliefs, well, at least it's "humane."

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:22 PM

Just like last year, it seems about time to institute the old old custom of Truce of God--no more fighting til after Christmas.

(Afterwards of course, we can come out with guns blazing, battle-axes swung or whatever you choose.)

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:22 AM

Link to start of above thread
Check here if you think I am exagerating!

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:17 AM

Big Mick, you said,
"When Den started a thread based on historical fact, and current UK news, he was accused of having a political agenda, and the thread got hijacked off the stated premise. I accept that Den had an agenda in starting it that co-existed with the stated one. "

Please look again at who took the thread from its stated premise.
First Ard Mhacha.
The rest of us stuck to it.
Then Ard again
Still the rest of us stuck to it
Then Divis Sweeney.
And still the rest of us stuck with it for a while.
Finally the pair of them did manage to steer the thread away to the Troubles of the past again.
AND THEN BOTH YOU AND DIVIS COMPLAIN ABOUT THE THREAD BEING TAKEN OFF TOPIC!

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 09:29 PM

I'm with Barry 110% EXCEPT that to say -- we have the national health - that is all that needs saying. No, NO - so much more needs to be said. How can American politicians look at themselves in the mirror in the morning knowing that there are people in this country who cannot afford to go to visit a health professional? The fat cats (and I cheerfully admit to being an entry level fat cat at least) can pay the bills - albeit that the insurance premium for my family is $12300 PER ANNUM for a $2500 deductible per person -- but I can pay. I can also afford to keep my oldest daughter on payroll so that she can have health insurance even though her work with mhy company is loosely defined. Not sure what the plan for child # 2, coming up to graduation with a Vet Tech's associate degree, but I will work something out. No child of mine is going to be uninsured for medical. But then I ask myself, what would I DO if the money just wasn't there - how would I handle the guilt. National health is the absolute basic requirement of a civilised society.......

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:43 PM

I've got a fiat stilo - is that judicial?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM

But citizens of the USA aren't a "race", are they? Other than human.

Wherever executions are allowed, as Bill recognises, sometimes they are going to be bungled, and people are going to be tortured to death. And sometimes the trials are going to be bungled and innocent people are going to be put to death.

Pretty cruel. And someday I suppose the judges will look around and see that just about every other country that aspires to be civilised has stopped doing things like that, and they will decide it's "unusual" as well. And it will stop by judicial fiat in the USA as well.

Or better still, ordinary citizens will look around and reach the same conclusion, and it'll be stopped in a more democratic way. Which is more than ever happened in most countries that have abolished it.

Subject: RE: BS: USA, hypocrisy and human rights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:48 PM

No, actually I am just using the same logic that Teribus and DtG use

Examples of Teribus and I using the same logic or even the same arguments please, Mick. I usualy agree with a lot of the anti-British sentiments whereas Teribus takes a different tack. What I take exception to is people bringing up stupid and pointless threads to simply stir up feelings against another group of people. In that I agree with you wholeheartedly about this thread. Pointless, inflamatory and racist.

You are the moderator though. How about deleting ALL racist threads as the editorial policy says?

Cheers

DtG