Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse

Subject: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Roberto
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:58 AM

In Ewan MacColl's Lord Thomas and Fair Annie (Child #73), the first verse is:

Lord Thomas he was a very fine man
Went oot tae hunt his career

What is the meaning of "went out to hunt is career"?

Thanks. R

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: paddymac
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:12 AM

He went out to seek his career/fortune. It's Anglicized Scots dialect.

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Roberto
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:15 AM

Thank you, paddymac. It was not so difficult, but I, thinking of Lord Thomas as a "forester", as other versions tell, could not think of a different meaning of "hunt". Thanks again. R

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Roberto
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 10:59 AM

More verses amd more problems from the same recording:

1. A coo may dee in her calvin / Or an ox may hang in the ploo

What does "hang in the plow" mean: to die at the plow, to die hung at the plow, or what else?

2. It's will ye come tae my weddin', Annie
The morn's tae be the day -
It's never a fit - said fair Annie
Unless the bride I be

The general meaning is clear, but what does exactly mean "never a fit"?

3. Oh ye maun wear my hat, Annie
And ye maun wear my glove
Until my wife hae born a son
And that will end oor love

What is the meaning of "wear my hat" and "wear my glove"? That Annie has to wait until Lord Thomas gets an heir, and then he won't be interested any more in his wife?

4. I winna wear your hat, Lord Thomas
I winna wear your glove
But ye maun gie 't your nut brown bride
Tae her ye's constant prove

Tae her ye's constant prove: does this mean you have proven constant, or you should prove constant?

Thanks again in advance to whom will help me. R

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:13 AM

Here, "ye's" can be understood as "ye shall", I think. Or "ye must".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

So many different versions of this ballad but several refer to the fact that the nut brown girl has valuable stock and that Lord Thomas (or his sister) argues that these will die in time and he will still be left without his Fair Annet

Her Oxen may dye in the house, billie
And her kye into the byre
And I sall have nothing to myself
But a fat fadge by the fyre

or similarly

The oxen may die into the pleuch
The cow drown i the myre;
And what's the metter brother Willie
Tak ye your heart's desire

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:59 AM

see also a glove as a symbol of courtship and or betrothal in The Twa Sisters

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Roberto
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:46 PM

I think Dave has answered one of the questions:
Tae her ye's constant prove = You must prove constant to her.

Paddymac had also answered to the first question:
Went oot tae hunt his career = He went out to seek his career/fortune

If Emma is right, the symbolism of the hat and the glove are an invitation not to break the love affair bitween Lord Thomas and Fair Annie, until his wife gives him a son (and that will end their love).

I'd say "hang in the ploo", "it's never a fit" are still unanswered questions.

Please, let's try again. R

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:09 PM

I think you can assume it means the ox and the cow will die in time whether it is in the plough or wherever
The only explanation I can give for "it's never a fit" is that it simply isn't fitting for her to go to the wedding except as the bride

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: paddymac
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:34 PM

I agree with Emma in re "it's never a fit."

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:17 AM

MacColl collated three Aberdeenshire texts (mostly using Bell Robertson's 'Sweet Willie and Fair Annie') from the Greig-Duncan collection; I don't know which tune he used. See Roberto's previous thread on the MacColl recording, Lord Thomas & Fair Annie for more information.

As regards "fit", remember that the words "what" and "whit" (not to mention "foot") are pronounced -more or less- "fit" in Aberdeenshire.

I doubt if we are looking at the standard English word "fit" here; I'd be inclined to read "never a fit" either as "never a (foot)step" or perhaps "never on foot"; both interpretations are consonant with actual usage, and a degree of ambiguity between the two was likely originally intended, given the verse (omitted by MacColl in his collation; perhaps he hadn't spotted the link between the two verses) that followed it in Bell Robertson's text:

Then oot there spak' fair Annie's mother,
And she spak' thus through pride,
Ye sanna gang to Willie's waddin',
Ye'll get a horse and ride.

(my italics).

(Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, vol II pp 73-74)

The problem with seeking meanings in folk song, particularly when the text concerned is a Revival collation rather than a traditional text, is that vital contextual information is often omitted, rendering a word or phrase ambiguous or even meaningless. Another example in this song is the reference to a hat (misinterpreted by some as "heart") which is perfectly clear if you look at Bell Robertson's text, but is a bit odd in MacColl's rendering. Again, see the previous thread.

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:03 AM

I always interpreted 'hang' as baulk/rebel, i.e. become useless as a plough ox.
Totally without research, of course, and I'm not even Scots.

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Darowyn
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:48 AM

It was not unusual in early times to consider a marriage not fully consummated until a child was born.
The offer to "wear hat and glove" until the child was born to the wife, indicates that the marriage was considered to be only conditional up to that point, thus to have an official lover would not count as adultery.
Note that this is the man's point of view, the woman does not quite see it that way!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:13 AM

Interesting Malcolm; in the ballad the jilted Annet certainly is decked out as a fine lady to attend the wedding.
In addition (just to confuse the issue even more) there is also the ceremony of washing the "fit" of a bride (or groom) on the eve of her/his wedding by their friends.

Actually, considering the "folk process" that these ballads have gone through - not to mention being transported across the oceans as well, it's a miracle that they have survived in any recognizable form atall - see the mondegreens thread:)

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: GUEST,Roberto
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:35 PM

Darowyn, you suggest a meaninig that is the opposite of what I had imagined. You say that Lord Thomas asks Annie to remain his lover until his wife gives him a son. In this case, "that will end our love" means that the love that is going to finish is the love between Lord Thomas and Annie. I tought that the sense could be that Lord Thomas was asking Annie to wait, and be again his lover after the birth of his heir. In this other case, the love that is going to finish would be the love between Lord Thomas and his wife. I think your interpretation is more likely...

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:11 PM

Re: "fit" (and noting what Malcolm Douglas writes about Buchan &c pronunciation), in a song dating back until at least the C18, "Jockey said to Jenny" the same construction appears, with the sense "not at all", "forget it", "no way, pal". Jockey wishes to marry Jenny:

"Jockey said to Jenny,
'Jenny, will thou dae't?'
'Ne'er a fit," said Jenny,
'For my tocherguid,
For my tocherguid,
I winna marry thee;'
'E'en's ye like' quo' Jockey,
'I can let ye be..."

(a "tocherguid", sometimes "tocher guid", is a dowry or "fortune")

Subject: RE: Lord Thomas / meaning of a verse
From: Roberto
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:44 AM

We got an answer to every question but one: "hang in the ploo (plow)". One more effort, please. R