BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

"See a couple of them each winter."
I 'smew' you would, being where you are.
Kindly leave the pond!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:48 PM

oh you merry quipper!
(Charles Hawtrey in Carry On Constable)

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:46 PM

one of my favourites.... See a couple of them each winter.

;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:04 PM

What's a "smow" is it related to a "smew"
"A small, crested 'Old World' duck"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 11:10 AM

Just read through this thread. That was a pretty good debate - Keith, Terribus, Divis...

where are the smows of yesteryear...?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 08:10 AM

British collusion in loyalist terrorism has long been an established fact and, as far as I know, never even denied.
it was touched on in numerous researched works.
Will check, but I think it was touched on in British M.P. Chris Mullins' 'Error of Judgement'
It is a major feature in ex paratrooper Tony Geraghty's 'The Irish War. A typical and fairly accurate dramatisation of it was used in Ken Loach's excellent 'Hidden Agenda'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:27 AM

Guardian inline?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:56 AM

I would just refer, once, again, to the Sutton Index which is irrefutable evidence that the number of civilians killed by para-miltary organisations far exceeds those killed by the British forces. This is no excuse as no-one should have suffered but just a reminder that people belonging to th epan should not call the kettle black!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 01:11 AM

By way of change, this case is about alleged collusion between the Garda, and maybe Irish state, with IRA in murder of two policemen.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0607/1224298499125.html

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 10:04 AM

Dear Oh Dear - "Raised on songs and stories" - Eh olliamh

"the british have been at war in ireland for nine hundred years" What complete and utter crap. Go and read a book by one of your own Canadian Historians, a guy called N.A.M.Roger called "Sovereign of the Seas". Learn how both France and Spain (The super powers of the day) played Scotland and Ireland to divert English attention in their attempts to influence England's foreign policy to suit their own squabbles, by fomenting trouble on England's borders.

One point though why 900 years or don't we count the years of Irish raids on England, Wales and Cornwall?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: ollaimh
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:35 PM

its a long dirty war because the british have been at war in ireland for nine hundred years--all the while pretending thats ok.if they left, or handed over power to a european interim government it would stop.

as for now the british continue to cover up their many assinations in ireland of the natives. moreover when found guilty as in bloody sunday they do not charge the murderers.

david cameron has been more apologetic and open and lets hope that that leads to actual democracy breaking out in the uk. in the past the british governemtn has used torture assination of its citizens, used faked evidence to convict irishmen, and when that was exposed they abolished the presumption of innocence in its courts all to get the rebels.

time to go boys, if your colonists can't get along with the natives time to take them with you. that's what the french did in algeria rather than fight an endless war. britian hasn't the courage to admit to its evil history and genocide except drop by drop, so the war goes on endlessly. the uk has been the worlds most war like country for hundreds of years and they aren't going to admit it was all wrong--that's how real world goes

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: J-boy
Date: 25 May 11 - 02:38 AM

And round and round it goes. Where it will stop nobody knows.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 09:59 AM

From Guardian yesterday.

Even before the Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998, C Company had begun a clandestine terror campaign of "no claim, no blame", in which they tried to kill leading IRA figures in Belfast and anyone who crossed them within loyalism. In many incidents, they used booby-trap bombs to kill their targets. And they employed a military-trained bombmaker from Ballygowan, Co Down, to build more lethal and sophisticated devices.

Just two years before Nelson was murdered, an identical device was used to kill UDA man Glenn Greer on 25 October 1997. The 28-year-old died after a bomb containing about 1kg (2 lbs) of Powergel explosive, used in quarry blasting, exploded under his car near his Bangor home. Greer had previously confessed to C Company that he had been an RUC Special Branch informer.

The investigation into the Nelson murder two years later found that the same kind of under-car booby-trap that had been planted to kill Greer was used in her death.

The key link between the LVF in Mid Ulster, the bombmaker and Adair's UDA unit was a drug dealer from the Ballysillan area with links to Wright's new organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:54 AM

On Wednesday 26th November (day 80), a closed hearing took place with witness B511.

He was expected to discuss how two leading LVF members, one with bomb making
capabilities constructed a bomb in Belfast and transferred it to Lurgan.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:30 AM

Ggogling immediately found, "LVF bombs often have contained Powergel commercial explosives, typical of many loyalist groups."

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:27 AM

The enquiry must have considered that.
What do I know?
Collusion between Loyalist paramilitaries?
Assistance from other terror groups?
Gadaffi?

Why fanfare the report, then reject it, and then ask me?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:17 AM

"Do you not find it strange Keith that the group which claimed her murder had been making pipe bombs out of fireworks and copper piping for the three years prior to her murder, then suddenly they knock their skill level up a step to make a D case undercar device using C4 and a duel tilt switch ? Please let us know."

Please answer. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 05:30 AM

Mike, you just said,"Clearly you support the RUC and you justify the murder of this lady in your comments. "

You have no justification for saying that and it is not true.
I abhor the activities of all the paramilitaries.
They have brought nothing but misery to Ireland.

According to your link, the bomb was the work of the LVF.

You reopened this thread, in your first ever post under this name, to announce the outcome of the enquiry into collusion.
It found no evidence of collusion.

Is there anything to be said not already covered?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:24 AM

Here is the link Keith.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/loyalist-mckeown-police-asked-me-to-shoot-rosemary-nelson-dead-13922418.html


Loyalist McKeown: Police asked me to shoot Rosemary Nelson dead


Loyalist lifer Trevor McKeown could be called to the public inquiry into the murder of Catholic lawyer Rosemary Nelson.
Four years ago he claimed rogue RUC officers directed him to the spot where Rosemary Nelson parked her car and urged him to shoot her there — less than two years before she was eventually killed by a loyalist car bomb.
McKeown says two officers asked him to kill the human rights lawyer while he was being quizzed over the murder of 18-year-old Bernadette Martin — an allegation they strenusously denied.
He said: "I would be willing to speak at the inquiry as I have nothing to hide. I am very worried about my security in giving evidence.
"These officers wanted me to shoot Nelson. They made that clear. I didn't agree with them that she should be killed and just said nothing.
"When I was arrested a detective said to me: 'You shouldn't have killed that 18-year-old girl, but Rosemary Nelson instead'. He said it would be easy for me or other loyalists to shoot her.
"Another detective was sitting in the room and just sat there as if he agreed while the first detective was telling me he wanted Rosemary Nelson dead. That was made clear to me."
Exactly 20 months after the alleged incident in July 1997, Mrs Nelson died from horrific injuries suffered when the LVF planted a booby-trap bomb under her car in Lurgan. The Red Hand Defenders — a cover-name for the LVF in mid-Ulster — admitted responsibility.
Since her death there have been persistent allegations of security force collusion in the murder, which is now the subject of an inquiry headed by retired judge Sir Michael Morland.
Ironically, McKeown's trial for murdering Bernadette Martin started the day mother-of-three Mrs Nelson was murdered on March 15, 1999.
Two English police officers have already interviewed Trevor McKeown inside Maghaberry Prison about his claims that an RUC officer urged him to murder the Catholic solicitor.
The police team investigating Mrs Nelson's case later found that the officers identified had been questioned years before as part of an internal inquiry into Mrs Nelson's allegations that RUC officers were threatening her while interviewing her clients.
Keith, Do you not agree that the behaviour of these officers was somewhat less than we would expect from serving officers here on the mainland, clearly you find it acceptable.

Regarding the Red Hand Defenders using black powder from fireworks to make pipe bombs for three years, then suddenly turn their hand to an under car D case duel tilt bomb, using C4 explosive. What is your view on this leap ?

This was a dastardly deed Keith. She was a mother and a highly respected Human Rights solicitor. The Royal Ulster Constabulary as a police force treated her in a way I find unacceptable.

Clearly you support the RUC and you justify the murder of this lady in your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 12:40 AM

Thanks Mike.
Unfortunately your last link does not work.
Your first link was about a previous enquiry.
It said," an RUC officer arrived 45 minutes late for interview and smelt of alcohol."
So one man smelt of alcohol.

I found no reference to refusals to attend.
I did not find, "RUC officers tell Loyalist to kill Mrs. Nelson"

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:38 PM

Did you read this in the link I sent Keith ?

"RUC Chief Constable Sir Ronnie Flanagan was at the centre of fresh controversy, yesterday, after admitting that none of the officers involved in allegations of threats against murdered human rights lawyer Rosemary Nelson had been suspended.
A report by the Independent Commission on Police Complaints was highly critical of a number of officers involved in the original inquiry, criticisms which ranged from one officer being drunk to outright hostility towards Mrs Nelson. But Sir Ronnie insisted that the officers in question were innocent until proven guilty ... but would give no further information about an inquiry which questions the impartiality of the force."

And then there was this

"RUC officers tell Loyalist to kill Mrs. Nelson"


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/loyalist-mckeown-police-asked-me-to-shoot-rosemary-nelson-dead-13922418.ht

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:35 PM

Keith, here is the link you requested.

Irish News " Flanagan at centre of
fresh RUC controversy"

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/03/25/ihead.htm

Do you not find it strange Keith that the group which claimed her murder had been making pipe bombs out of fireworks and copper piping for the three years prior to her murder, then suddenly they knock their skill level up a step to make a D case undercar device using C4 and a duel tilt switch ? Please let us know.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:35 PM

Since they haven't been able to find evidence of who actually killed Rosemary Nelson it's not exactly surprising they haven't been able to find evidence of any actions carried out by state authorities to bring this about.

I note they leave open the suggestion that people working within the relevant agencies might have been involved - "...a rogue member or members..."

I believe the term "deniability" is often used in relation to such things.

This was a dirty war, and dirty things get done in dirty wars. By all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 11 - 03:20 PM

"The report finds that "There is no evidence of any act by or within any of the state agencies we have examined (the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the Northern Ireland Office, the Army or the Security Service) which directly facilitated Rosemary Nelson's murder".

The report goes on to say that "we cannot exclude the possibility of a rogue member or members of the RUC or the Army in some way assisting the murderers to target Rosemary Nelson". Although the panel does not provide specific evidence on this.

Mr Speaker, those who are looking for evidence that the state conspired in or planned the death of Rosemary Nelson will not find it in this report"

Mike, I can not find any references to the drunkeness and refusals to attend that you report.
Can you guide us to evidence for that please.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 11 - 03:03 PM

An inquiry has found "no evidence of any act by or within any of the state agencies... which directly facilitated" the killing.

The panel also found "omissions" by state agencies made her "more at risk and more vulnerable"

They also accepted that there might have been collusion at a rank and file level.

In my first post here, 19th December 2006, I said,
"I would be surprised if there were no low level collusion.
I will be surprised if high level collusion is proved."

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:14 PM

Report is now out. "The state failed to protect high-profile solicitor Rosemary Nelson before her murder in Northern Ireland a major public inquiry has found.

The hard-hitting report found no firm evidence of a direct role in the car bomb attack 12 years ago, but it said it could not rule out the possibility of involvement by a rogue element of the security forces.

The inquiry, concluded that Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officers publicly abused and assaulted the solicitor, and it believed police intelligence on the 40-year-old mother of three had leaked out.

Before her death on March 15 1999, the lawyer, who worked on a number of controversial cases including those of suspected republican terrorists, had alleged police intimidation.

Those claims gained international attention and the report found police had made "abusive and threatening remarks" about the solicitor.

The public inquiry found that the state "failed to take reasonable and proportionate steps to safeguard the life of Rosemary Nelson".


It is very hard to expect the people living in the North of Ireland to believe that a new loyalist group who had been making crude pipe bombs out of fireworks for three years suddenly develop the skill to produce a duel magnetic tilt device using C4 explosive.

Police officers turned up drunk at interviews regarding her murder, other refused to attend.

It was collusion, just as the British government colluded for 30 years with state agencies.

People here learn to expect little and accept less.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: michaelr
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:01 PM

Gust, Mike W, please return here and let us know the findings.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:55 AM

The findings of a public inquiry into police collusion in the murder of solicitor Rosemary Nelson in Lurgan will be published later today.

She died after a bomb exploded under her car near her home in March 1999.

The family of the solicitor claimed the police and government ignored a series of warnings about threats against her.

She had become a hate figure for hardline loyalists - and police officers - because of some of the clients she represented, some were republicans.


Another client was the Garvaghy Road Residents Group, which opposed an Orange Order march in Portadown.

The solicitor and a number of legal and human rights groups had raised concerns about her safety over a two-year period before she was killed.

They claimed she had been threatened by RUC officers as well as loyalist paramilitaries.

Within hours of the bombing, those groups and her family stated there had been police collusion in her murder.

This afternoon, the government will make public the verdict of a 15-month long public inquiry that examined those allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

I see the report said "The PSNI had been "slow and reluctant" in providing information which caused the inquiry its "greatest difficulties".

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM

The finding of the enquiry, no collusion involved in the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:08 AM

A public inquiry into allegations that the death of loyalist prisoner Billy Wright may have been the result of collusion will be published later today.

The leader of the Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) was shot dead in the Maze prison in December 1997.

The murder was carried out by three members of the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA).

Since then questions have been raised as to how Wright could have been murdered inside a high-security prison.

In 2004 retired Canadian judge Peter Cory recommended a public inquiry.

He said he was satisfied that "there was sufficient evidence of collusive acts by prison authorities to warrant the holding of such an inquiry".

That investigation was established in May 2007 under the chairmanship of Lord Ranald MacLean.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:53 PM

Love Dillon's books.

E

PS Hi Tir!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Den
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM

Martin Dillon is a great read for anyone interested in the "troubles". He has writen a number of books (including the one that Wolfgang has linked to) such as God and the Gun, the Shankill Butchers, Trigger Men, Rogue Warrior of the SAS: The Blair Mayne Legend, Stone Cold: The True Story of Michael Stone and the Milltown Massacre and Twenty-Five Years of Terror: The IRA's War Against the British.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:58 AM

The Dirty War is also already the title of a book about NI.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:59 PM

In the Argentine they use the term "the dirty war" to refer to what happened in their country a few years back. It's an expression that fits the 30 Years War in Northern Ireland just as well.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:54 PM

Just heard George Galloway on BBC 24.

"Why did the sun never set on the British Empire?"

"Because even god couldn't trust the British in the dark"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:24 AM

How would you know, Keith?

Corrymeela has been a centre for conflict resolution since you were an altar boy.

REFRESH

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:00 AM

Progress is being made Alan, though painfully slowly sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:32 AM

I understand that Keith. So possibly a thread on conflict resolution in Northern Ireland would be a good start and an agreement among you all to ignore any antagonistic entries to your discussion. I myself don't know enough on the subject but I do feel those of you that do can offer something. Just an idea.

Cheers
Alan.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:12 AM

I agree Alan.
I did not bring any of this up.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:06 AM

Keith. As the problems in Northern Ireland seem to be over is there any real point in bringing the events in this troubled part of the UK up again and again ?

We have all read the statistics many times and it isn't a score card. These were human lives.

Circumstances of each death and known affiliations to paramilitary groups or the police force or British army should remain as a reminder to us all I agree, but please allow all hostile threads concerning Northern Ireland here to die gracefully.

I am not in anyway inferring you are starting these threads Keith, but we could set by example a new beginning of friendship, reconciliation and understanding by not regurgitating such horrible events again and again here on this site.

I would dearly love to see all of the regular contributors here begin a thread and contribute to conflict resolution and look at the future over there and see what all of you with your knowledge and experience could offer instead of reflecting on the past.

Alan.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:29 AM

WLD,
stats. of deaths in the troubles are not like those of the holocaust which include estimates and extrapolations.
Each figure is an individual whose death has been reported and in most cases compensated.
Den recently gave a link to a list of every person killed by the security forces, with the circumstsances of each death and known affilliations to paramilitary groups. Such lists could be found for all the deaths.
They really are not disputed.
I use this Irish site if I need figures.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html#statusperpetrator

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:51 AM

Thanks Guest.
I was just going to post that I AM covered in guilt now.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:47 AM

Subject: RE: BS: To clear a hero's name
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:32 AM

Gulp!
What can I say?
A serious case of egg on my face.
Thank you Guest. Please convey MY apologies to Divis.
Also to readers.
I somehhow missed that post.
Dear Clones, can you work your magic and delete this thread?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:28 AM

come on now keith, admit it. Its our fault. If it wasn't for us Brits, they'd all be riverdancing and eating potato cakes. it would be a bit like that john wayne film, all the sweet colleens secretly yearning to to have their bottoms spanked by rebels with rugged good looks.

you know it makes sense. just admit it, and you'll feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:20 AM

Guilty feelings?
Who?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:19 AM

Major thread drift here, largely caused by the obvious (and creditable) guilty feelings of English posters.

Of course the responsibilities for the British atrocities went right to the top. If they hadn't, the people responsible for them would have been rapidly shed from police force, spying organisations and army, and the British government would have made loud haste to dissassociate itself from those atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:36 AM

Thanks Peace.
WLD I am sorry if Divis is hurt by personal remarks and insults.
I object to them too.
I do not make them.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:31 PM

The Irish part of me thinks y'all ought to shake hands and let it go. The Scottish part of me seeks sheep. The English part of me wants a cuppa. The Canuck part--which is all of it rolled into one ball--will now have to figure out how to shake hands with a sheep while having a cup of tea.

Dammit to hell. There are too many good people on this thread 'having at' each other and I really wish it would stop. That is, in effect, ALL of you. Please, let it rest. And let us, those of us who have friends like Keith and Divis, not have to even consider choosing side. I truly like both you guys because of the people you are. That's the Divis and Keith I know. I don't know the folks involved in the 'troubles'. Ireland itself has tried to make the troubles a thing of the past. I pray my friends will see their way to do that, too. AND, if you two AREN'T fighting, then I hope I'm never in an Irish bar when people are. I think I would understand the term 'Donnybrook'.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

cos I got a PM from him saying he couldn't take the personal remarks and insults and was going. I think the forum will be poorer for not being able to accomodate someone with a differing viewpoint. If we only listen to people who agree with us, its all going to get a bit like tory party conference.

david Irving disputes the stats

I bet you saddam Hussein would like to dispute the stats.

what d'you mean no one disputes the stats. for every stat theres someone to dispute them.

I address my remarks to you, cos you are sensible.