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BS: speed restrictions in cars

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The Sandman 18 Dec 06 - 03:16 PM
wysiwyg 18 Dec 06 - 03:17 PM
Peace 18 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM
The Villan 18 Dec 06 - 03:33 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Dec 06 - 03:40 PM
The Villan 18 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Dec 06 - 03:48 PM
Amos 18 Dec 06 - 03:54 PM
Scoville 18 Dec 06 - 03:55 PM
Sorcha 18 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Dec 06 - 04:00 PM
katlaughing 18 Dec 06 - 04:05 PM
Teribus 18 Dec 06 - 04:07 PM
bobad 18 Dec 06 - 04:17 PM
Doug Chadwick 18 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM
Leadfingers 18 Dec 06 - 04:37 PM
The Villan 18 Dec 06 - 04:44 PM
Liz the Squeak 18 Dec 06 - 05:16 PM
The Sandman 18 Dec 06 - 05:17 PM
The Sandman 18 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM
Gurney 18 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM
kendall 18 Dec 06 - 06:13 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 18 Dec 06 - 06:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM
catspaw49 18 Dec 06 - 08:31 PM
Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland 18 Dec 06 - 08:42 PM
catspaw49 18 Dec 06 - 08:48 PM
GUEST 18 Dec 06 - 09:03 PM
Gurney 19 Dec 06 - 01:19 AM
GUEST 19 Dec 06 - 01:52 AM
s&r 19 Dec 06 - 03:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 06 - 06:27 AM
catspaw49 19 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM
GUEST 19 Dec 06 - 06:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 06 - 06:48 AM
Liz the Squeak 19 Dec 06 - 06:51 AM
Grab 19 Dec 06 - 07:00 AM
Paul Burke 19 Dec 06 - 07:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 06 - 07:10 AM
Cluin 19 Dec 06 - 08:01 AM
The Sandman 19 Dec 06 - 08:42 AM
Skipjack K8 19 Dec 06 - 09:14 AM
catspaw49 19 Dec 06 - 10:26 AM
Phot 19 Dec 06 - 11:26 AM
Dazbo 19 Dec 06 - 11:41 AM
Grab 19 Dec 06 - 11:46 AM
Peace 19 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM
kendall 19 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM
Amos 19 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 06 - 01:35 PM
Midchuck 19 Dec 06 - 01:43 PM
Phot 19 Dec 06 - 02:36 PM
jacqui.c 19 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM
Amos 19 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM
kendall 19 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM
Amos 19 Dec 06 - 03:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 06 - 03:15 PM
Peace 19 Dec 06 - 03:19 PM
Big Phil 19 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 06 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,petr 19 Dec 06 - 07:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 06 - 07:38 PM
Bert 19 Dec 06 - 08:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM
Sooz 20 Dec 06 - 02:42 AM
Paul Burke 20 Dec 06 - 03:37 AM
s&r 20 Dec 06 - 04:07 AM
Rowan 20 Dec 06 - 05:02 AM
kendall 20 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Dec 06 - 09:22 PM
Peace 20 Dec 06 - 10:02 PM
Dazbo 21 Dec 06 - 10:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM
Dazbo 21 Dec 06 - 04:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 06 - 04:31 PM
kendall 21 Dec 06 - 09:22 PM
HuwG 22 Dec 06 - 07:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Dec 06 - 07:36 AM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Dec 06 - 07:41 AM
s&r 23 Dec 06 - 02:37 PM
s&r 23 Dec 06 - 02:38 PM
Big Phil 23 Dec 06 - 03:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Dec 06 - 03:54 PM
HuwG 23 Dec 06 - 08:55 PM
kendall 24 Dec 06 - 08:59 AM
JohnInKansas 24 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM
kendall 24 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Dec 06 - 03:12 PM
kendall 24 Dec 06 - 06:18 PM
Bonecruncher 24 Dec 06 - 09:12 PM
kendall 25 Dec 06 - 07:16 AM
s&r 26 Dec 06 - 06:34 AM
Peace 26 Dec 06 - 07:56 PM
catspaw49 26 Dec 06 - 08:43 PM
Peace 26 Dec 06 - 08:47 PM
catspaw49 26 Dec 06 - 08:58 PM
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Subject: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:16 PM

Here in Ireland,many drivers are getting killed, the main problem is excessive speed on unsuitable roads,many of the drivers are young and post mortem examination shows no trace of alcohol.there is a speed limit in this countryt off 63 miles per hour 80 kilometres,many of these drivers were going over 100 mph.
if car manufacturers were forced to make cars that did not exceed the national speed limit,all these accidents could be avoided. for england, no car faster than 70 mph etc.ireland 65 mphetc
2.governors or speed restriction devices to be fitted to the cars of all drivers under the age of 25...50 mph would seem sensible[theris only one small motorway in Ireland].
gardai /police officers are at the same time freed to do other crime Prevention.
what is the point of making cars that break the official national speed limit,its only encouraging lawbreaking and indirectly Manslaughter.
Sometimes innocent law abiding motorists get involved,badlymaimed and killed.
Society has right to be protected from these idiots,and CAR MANUFACTURERS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO SOCIETY .


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Subject: RE: BS: spped restrictions in cars
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:17 PM

I don't care how fast they go INside the cars, as long as the cars themselves don't go too fast.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: spped restrictions in cars
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM

80 km/hr = about 50 mph.


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Subject: RE: BS: spped restrictions in cars
From: The Villan
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:33 PM

I feel that if you restrict the speed of a car, people will get killed when they try to overtake and then find that they haven't got the acceleration to get in front of the car they are overtaking.

Its very difficult.

I almost got killed once because a bus I was overtaking, put his foot down as I got halfway along the bus. It was up a hill and a car appeared over the hill, and I had to make a decision. Could I go, or could I get back in behind the bus. My decision was to go for it. I had a Scorpio Estate at the time and it was a 3 litre car. That car saved my family and myself and the oncoming car. I had the power to get myself out of it. The bastard of a bus driver had caused a major tailback and when I was clear to overtake decided to be clever and risk our families life.
With a car with less poke we would have been done for.

Its all about road sense and a lot of the youngsters seem to think that they are infallible.

B an them for life if they don't learn to drive more carefully.

Obviously its too late when they kill themselves, but if they knew they would be banned for reckless driving and it was enforced,they may think twice.


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Subject: RE: BS: spped restrictions in cars
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:40 PM

Youngsters will just find another way to kill themselves. It's nothing to do with the speed of the cars, it's because at that age they think they're immortal.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: The Villan
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM

Thats fine Giok if they kill themselves as long as they don't involve innocent people.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:48 PM

I agree wholeheartedly mate.
G


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:54 PM

Denying the exercise of judgement will simply inculcate people of little judgement. Better to cleanse the gene pool.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Scoville
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:55 PM

My first car wouldn't go over 70 even without government-imposed restrictions. Actually, that was a speed hazard, too, because I couldn't accelerate fast enough to maneuver through traffic (car went from 0 to 60 in about three days. More if I had to run the fan on a hot day).

How about better driver education and better enforcement of existing speed laws? Around here, the police speed worse than anyone and I see people do all sorts of idiotic things on the freeway without getting ticketed. Fine the pants off them and boot the car until something sinks in.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM

And they'll decide how to remove or override the governors.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:00 PM

Damn stupid idea.

Rolls Royce made and experimental car once, in teh days when the UK speed limit was 20. It was called the Legalimit. Guess how many they sold?


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:05 PM

I think the age limit should be raised. Kids in school, high school and younger, should not be driving. Anyone caught using a cellphone while driving should face severe fines. And, I agree, we need better enforcement of existing speed limits, etc.Of course, that means we have to spend more on hiring officers, equipment, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:07 PM

Agree with Richard and The Villan.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:17 PM

Here in Canada many transport companies govern their rigs and it seems to work alright.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM

0 to 60 in 10 seconds    -    60 to 0 in 0.5 seconds

It's not speed that kills drivers – it's the sudden stop that does the damage


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM

All rigs/lorries over 7.5 tons are governed to 100 KPH in the EEC, it takes years to get any where, and about 2 Kms to overtake each other. They are also limited to 64 KPH on all non motorway roads. Great fun up here in the highlands where 2 lane roads are the norm.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:37 PM

Its NOT fast cars that cause accidents - Its the drivers !!


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: The Villan
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:44 PM

Agreed LF


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:16 PM

It's not just youngsters - the driver who killed my cousin, himself, one of his own sons and injured his other two children and wife was a man in his 40s. He couldn't be bothered to wait for a line of traffic to move and overtook it on a single carriageway road that bucks up and down like a rollercoaster. It was the speed he was doing (60-70+) that made the injuries so serious.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:17 PM

but why make cars that go 140 mph ,when there is nowhere safe to drive at that speed. and its breaking the law. RICHARD BRIDGE says its a silly idea.
The state thinks it necessary that we are protected from ourselves and others by having drink drive laws.
dont innocent people have a right to be protected from speeding drivers, the day will come when people wil be charged with manslaughter, for dangerous driving when thay are sober.
this Radical scheme would deal with the problem straight away
the amount of accidents would be reduced ,if people couldnt go faster than the official speed limit,
fuel consumption will decrease, having a marginally beneficial effect on the environment.
police officers will be freed for other crime prevention .
to leadfingers.
its drivers, driving cars faster than the official speed limit.if a car cant go faster than 75mph accidents will be reduced,the faster one goes the greater the braking distance neededto avoid an accident.
Look at all the idiots on english motorways,who drive and tailgate at 80 mph plus,not leaving the correct braking distance between vehicles.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM

the state deems it necesarry that drinkers are protected from themselves and other people are protected from them. WHY should not the state find it necessary to protect people from speeding drivers, by removing their ability [in englands case to go] 70 to75 mph plus.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM

Governers/rev limiters need practise, because as The Villan said at the start, sometimes you get yourself in a position where , if you haven't got performance, you are dead.

Sometimes you are dead anyway, of course. But trucks are driven by professionals, cars usually by amateurs.

Governers could, theoretically, be computer controlled to give perhaps two ungoverned bursts of power per hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:13 PM

The VW bug was limited to 68 mph and they sold millions of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:33 PM

Since cars are so computerized nowadays, a device which would allow one to briefly accelerate above the legal limit for purposes of overtaking slower traffic, but which would return the car to legal maximum speed afterward would be quite feasible.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM

I've always wished they could come up with a device that meant that anytime you went over the local speed limit on any road a siren would start sounding on the roof of your car until you slowed down. Together with a law requiring people to have such a decvice installed and working, the same as seat-belts.

It wouldn't stop you accelerating out of trouble - but it'd mean if you were driving along over the limit you'd be advertising the fact, and you'd have no kind of legal defence at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:31 PM

There are those individuals out there, gearheads, with gasoline in their veins who will circumvent any and all attempts at slowing a vehicle down. These folks enjoy motorcycles that will exceed the legal speed limit in ANY gear and cars that make them feel a part of the assembly. Even those who race on tracks and off road are still hard wired into hard accelerating and high G cornering on the highways at least some of the time.

Many of them understand your concerns and as they age, if they age, better sense takes over for at least part of the time. But even so the 60 year old in the high performance 4 door sedan, the wolf in sheep's clothing, can still be seen screaming past, out on the occasional proficiency run. This phenomenon is probably a bigger factor in the U.S. where cars are a more integral part of the culture.

For this group, at any age, there is nothing you can do.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:42 PM

it is not the cars that are dangerous but the people that drive them.

because when it parked it can't kill.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:48 PM

Actually they can.

Ford recently had a huge recall centered around an electrical problem on their Pick-Ups and several other models using a specific switch in the cruise control. They were a fire hazard and had been the cause of several house fires with resulting deaths.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:03 PM

Helped take a fellow just like this from a vehicle a few months back.

My hope was that he'd died before the flames got him.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:19 AM

Kendall's point about the VW is well taken, and illustrates how much more powerful modern cars are. I listened to someone bemoaning the fact that his (company) car was 'only' 1600cc. He was ignorant of the fact that the Monte Carlo Rally was twice won outright with cars of that capacity, and even smaller engines triumphed, too.

In Britain around 1970, my first Mini had 850cc, the Morris Minor 1000 was called that because that was its engine size, anything over 1800cc was once considered suitable for towing, and capacities between 1100cc and 1500cc were the biggest sellers.
The bodies around those engines weren't made of kitchen foil, either.

Many modern family cars around 1800cc would show anything of that era a clean pair of heels, including Jaguars and Astons and Healeys.
The drivers, unfortunately, haven't advanced.


There was a time that the tax, as well as the insurance, penalised larger-capacity cars.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:52 AM

McGrath says

"I've always wished they could come up with a device that meant that anytime you went over the local speed limit on any road a siren would start sounding on the roof of your car until you slowed down. Together with a law requiring people to have such a decvice installed and working, the same as seat-belts".

In Singapore the taxis have a light on the roof which flashes when they exceed the (very low) speed limit. It seems to work well (unless you are late getting to the airport, of course).

As to governors being dangerous, a 7 series Beamer I had a couple of cars ago was limited to 145 mph by the car's computer (though I didn't ever test it to see if it worked!). The point is that a governor can be made independent of the acceleration power of the car - it simply doesn't start to take effect until the desired limit is reached, so you can have all of the normal acceleration for overtaking but can't exceed the governed maximum.

Just an observation, but Captain Birdseye you sound like one of those drivers I'd rather be in front of than behind. And arguably, creating the "need" for other drivers to overtake you could be said to be a dangerous way to drive.....

cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: s&r
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 03:50 AM

Is there really only one motorway in Ireland? I seem to remember the M1 M50 and M9

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:27 AM

"...who will circumvent any and all attempts at slowing a vehicle down. But my sirens wouldn't slow the vehicle down, just announce to the world, including the police, that it was going over the limit.

I imagine the speedhogs would quite enjoy it, until they were arrested.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM

Aw c'mon Kevin......How long do you think it would take to bypass that?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:46 AM

In France for example 5000 people are killed every year from cars and 50,000 injured , If anything else was causing so much death and destruction in society it would be banned .
The human race got by for thousands of years without cars and if cars were banned we would still get by.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:48 AM

How about a law that, if you get done for speeding and they find your siren has been bypassed, they confiscate your car and ban you from driving for life? A bit of zero tolerance where it might actually help...


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:51 AM

My father was a terrible driver. He learned in the army in 1944 when all you had to do was point a lorry across a parade ground and not hit the colonel. He never took a formal driving test.

He never had an accident, he never exceeded the speed limit, he never got a parking ticket or his license endorsed and he never tailgated.

He did however, drive perfectly legally at 45mph in the centre lane of motorways. He regularly blocked smaller roads by travelling at 25mph regardless of the actual limit. Whilst doing this, he would be swearing and shouting at all the other drivers who were wanting to pass him.

He ignored every other vehicle on the road unless they were in his way. He didn't know that his last car had a 5th gear. He would never pull over into the side of the road to let anyone else pass. Cyclists would overtake him and he'd swear at them. A 60 mile journey would take him nearly 3 hours. He must have caused so many fender benders, road rage rants and sharp rises in blood pressure to those people behind him.

It wasn't until I had passed my test, I realised just how bad a driver he was. I only ever got in the car with him once more after that... my nerves wouldn't stand it. Trouble is... he wasn't actually doing anything against the law.

It has to be every persons judgement on what speed they are doing. I agree that building and designing cars capable of 150+mph for ordinary road use is ridiculous. But I would also agree that the capacity for rapid acceleration is also necessary. It's the drivers who need the re-education and awareness of what excessive speed does. I've always said, even as a pedestrian (actually, particularly as a pedestrian!) that everyone should have a re-test every 5-10 years, as you have when you reach 70yrs. If you fail, your license is taken away right there and then, and you take lessons again til you pass. That might help cut out a lot of those bad habits we all get into.

So might taking cassette players out of the dashboard.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Grab
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:00 AM

"Why make a car to do 140mph"? Mostly because a high top speed is a standard side-effect of high acceleration ability at lower speeds. Most cars don't do 140mph, but most will happily do 100mph.

I second the argument about speed sometimes helping you get out of a situation - been there, done that. Most people probably have.

The problem isn't speed per se, it's inappropriate speed. There are plenty of country roads with bends where 20mph would land you in the ditch. So do we limit the entire road to 20mph? Or do we try to fit an ultra-accurate GPS and measure the maximum safe speed for every bend on every road in the entire country?

And on the other hand, who says that 70mph is the right speed? The only reason the 70mph national speed limit exists at all is down to the Oil Crisis in the 1970's. With modern cars, there's no earthly reason not to have a higher speed limit on motorways - Germany shows that there isn't a problem with that. "Appropriate speed" on an empty motorway with dry tarmac is however fast you want to go.

You want to blame someone, blame the government for setting unreasonably low standards on driver training.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:09 AM

There's a very good reason for 70mph or lower speed limits on most British roads. That's because there aren't only fast cars there, and you have to share with lorries and other slower vehicles, and people who just don't want to drive fast. It's often not speed as such that creates a dangerous situation, but the speed differential. We don't have many empty motorways at any time of day or night, and a common hazard is a lorry doing 60mph trying to overtake one doing 60.5mph. If it weren't for the ban on the use of the third lane, you can bet they'd be in there too. And then there are the roads that look like motorways but aren't, and the blithe unconcerned driver suddenly sees a tractor pulling a trailerload of muck pull out of a 90 degree sideturning straight into his path.

I agree about the driver training. No one should be allowed to drive until they understand why speed limits are a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:10 AM

Top running speed for a human being is around 23 miles an hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:01 AM

And how often do you hit that?


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:42 AM

How many more people have been killed by excess speed,than by not being able to accelerate out of a situation, please get things in perspective.
car manufacturers have a responsibility to society as do cigarette manufacturers,it can be argued that vehicle manufacturers are encouraging drivers to break the speed limit by making cars that do this.
   society has rules. in the case of speed,the faster you go themore braking distance is required, the faster you go the more likelihood of death and serious injury.
society is protected by the state.the state deems it not suitable because it leads to death,to take drugs like heroin and crack.here in ireland the state deems it not suitable to smoke cigarettes in public places,because of death from passive smoking.
society needs to be protected from drivers breaking the official speed limit,the most effective way to do this in my opinion,is for car manufacturers to be forced by governments,to make cars that are fitted with electronic governors connected to the fuel system,so that it is impossible to go faster than each countries speed limit. at the present moment, ambulances in england have this device fitted at 100 m p h,so the technology is there.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:14 AM

I understand that the technology being considered by the Guvverment is based on satellite navigation, in other words, when a car enters a 30mph zone, an electrically operated governor immediately makes that the top speed, opening up commensurately on entering a 40,50,60 or 70mph. I'm told by car buffs that the car manufacturers will have to comply with this sort of legislation, probably within the next decade.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:26 AM

Just an opinion Skip, but we'll be out of fossil fuels before that technology happens in the States.

And Birdseye.....Just where are you proposing all this happen? Ireland? UK? Europe? Worldwide?

It won't happen here anytime soon. This country is way too deep in the car well.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Phot
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:26 AM

I have two vehicles, one is a 17 year old Landrover Discovery 3.5 V8, the other is a Triumph Daytona T595, the top speed of the Disco is around 105, and 0-60 takes around 12 seconds, the top speed of the Triumph is around 180, 0-60 is 2.4 seconds, just because they can reach these speeds, it dosn't mean to say I have the right to drive them at speed on the public highway. Thanks to the freedom of choice that I have at the moment I can enjoy these vehicles. Why do so many people see somthing that they don't like and then want the goverment to legislate against it? What is needed is education, not legislation, I have a lot of experience driving restricted vehicles as I hold a Class1 PSV licence (Coaches and Buses)Which is probably the hardest driving test to pass in the UK.

I was overtaking another coach on a dual carrageway, when my coach hit the limiter, which was probably 1-2 mph higher than his, so the distance to overtake was probably around half a mile, as I was about two thirds past his coach, a police car came up behind me at over 100mph, I couldn't go any faster so I was in the dillema, of carry on trying to overtake, which would hold him up, or ease off, hit the brakes and pull in behind the vehicle I was trying to overtake, casuing him to brake, and possibly hold him up even more. Modern coaches if unrestricted can hit around 90, and more importantly have the suspention and brakes to cope with the power and speed that they could achieve. I'm not advocating that all coaches and buses drive at 90mph, but if the one I had been driving had not been restricted I would have been past the one I was overtaking, before the police car had been in my mirrors.

If we were to legislate against everything in this world that held a risk of any sort, we would never even risk getting out of bed! Drivers need to be better educated, bad drivers are the risk to society, not the inanimate objects they drive. Though by the comment of, "CAR MANUFACTURERS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO SOCIETY" surely the Royal Navy has a responsility to me to stop sending me places where I keep getting shot at, rocketed, mortered.............?! Ah, but you volnteered, you may say. Did the car manufacturer make you buy a car.......................?!

Wassail!! Chris.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Dazbo
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:41 AM

"Governers/rev limiters need practise, because as The Villan said at the start, sometimes you get yourself in a position where , if you haven't got performance, you are dead."

Yeah, and in most of these incidents it's the performance that put you in that peril in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Grab
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:46 AM

How many more people have been killed by excess speed,than by not being able to accelerate out of a situation, please get things in perspective.

We don't have figures for the second one, so you can't get a perspective either way. And I repeat, the problem is excess speed *for the situation*. Excess speed over 60mph or whatever arbitrary number has been chosen is *NEVER* the problem. Have you seen corners in Ireland where 20mph would be dangerous? Of course you have - you have country roads over there, the same as we do in Britain. But I repeat, limiting the whole road to 20mph is not an acceptable solution.

the faster you go themore braking distance is required

This is true.

the faster you go the more likelihood of death and serious injury.

This is false. You could make it true by saying "the more likelihood ... *if* you happen to crash", although this wouldn't support your argument. Speed and crashing are independent, and are only linked by the current driving conditions (dry/wet roads, bends, visibility, other traffic, etc).

the most effective way to do this in my opinion

This is your opinion. The opinions of people who drive long distances regularly are opposed to yours. The opinions of people who know how well the arbitrary speed limit reflects safety of driving conditions are opposed to yours. The opinions of people who've worked in the automotive industry and know the legal problems involved with arbitrarily limiting speed are opposed to yours. The opinions of people who have some idea of the technical difficulty to implement a limiter which can calculate the "safe" speed for every corner are opposed to yours.

Short answer: You may have this opinion, but as a minority in a democratic society, you're SOL mate.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

Experience shows me that cars that impact at higher speeds have more chance of injuring or killing the occupants than those that impact at slower speeds. Before anyone gets pedantic with that, think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM

No law or gaget will ever take the place of judgement, and the lack of judgement is what gets people into trouble in the first place.

I drive a 33 foot motorhome that weighs 16,000 pounds. It is a typical large motor vehicle and it will not stop on a dime. I don't need a governor (limiter) to keep me from speeding, what I have is the desire to avoid killing someone.

I don't know how many times I have had idiots pull right out in front of me with inches to spare because they don't know how hard it is to stop such a rig. After about the third close call, I wired the burglar alarm ( siren)to the horn so when I lay on the horn now, I get their attention.

In other words, don't rely on gagets, use your head for something besides a knot to keep your back bone from unravelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

If I was a coach passsenger, I'd really sooner the driver didn't go in for overtaking other coaches which were travellig at 69 mph.

I think any limiters ought in fact to be set a few miles faster than the speed limit, to allow for emergencies. But I'd like them to be supplemented by flashing lights or sirens to indicate to the world at large - and to the driver and passengers - that the limit is being exceeded, which shouldn't ever be for more than a few seconds.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM

In Singapore, not only the taxis but the commercially-licensed trucks and vans have a flashing yellow light on the top that flashes "I'm speeding" when the car exceeds the limit. I have heard that Singapore requires governors on private vehicles sold, but I am not positive of this.

In Mexico, driving is a death-defying art in which you are often required to pass large slow lorries on curvy two-lane roads. This is a test of your extra-sensory abilities of perception. Every now and then you pass a broken-out guard rail with some car or bus down in the valley below that failed the test. I am extremely thankful I had the extra power of a large Chevy V8 engine under me when I drove through the Mexican highlands, which I did regularly for a year without a mishap.

The REAL issue is not the machines and limiting them. It is human sanity and human judgement. That is a much tougher nut to crack, but that's where the real solution lies. If we understood how to raise individual responsibility as easily as we can raise taxes and blood-pressures in others, we'd be richer by far than we are today.

One of the first things I did when teaching my daughter to drive was to take her out in a large dirt parking lot and have her floor the accelerator, slam on the brakes, and do skids intentionally, just show she would be able to knwo and respect the limits and behaviors of the machine at the extremes. She's never had an accident yet.
Knock on wood. But the point is that she understood something about the machine she was running. It's a LOT easier to be responsible for something when you understand it.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:35 PM

Well, yes - but... If we didn't have machines that drive at potentially lethal speeds, human fallibility and stupidity wouldn't be the same problem. If some daydreaming character, or someone tearing along as fast as they can go, bumps into you, that's not a big problem if you're both on foot. Even with horses, the chances are quite good no one will be too seriously injured. It's very different when motor vehicles are involved.

So we've introduced technology that makes trivial accidents fatal. Balancing that with technology which does something to balance that makes sense to me. As I pointed out, our top speed as un-amplified human beings is maybe 23 miles an hour. Those are the kind of reaction times we are really geared for.

If all drivers would use their heads, it'd be great - but it's not going to happen, though we could probably get a lot closer to achieving it; there are a lot of people who shouldn't ever be allowed in a driving seat, or not for a good few years. That's why it's a good idea to do stuff that reduces the danger and the damage ..........................

I've seen those broken bits in the guard rails or the stone barrier on high roads myself too, in Spain and Italy especially. If I had to drive on roads like that, I'd just tuck in behind the slow lorry, and take as long as it took to actually get to where I wanted to get to. I don't trust my ESP.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:43 PM

What about the issue of introducing a requirement for speed limiters, and people keeping their old cars instead of buying new ones, because they didn't want the limiter?

It could cause a recession or depression.

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Phot
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:36 PM

Speed limiters on coaches in the UK are set at 65 mph,+or- 5%, so the next National Express coach you might be in may just be doing 69 mph! If you want a really scary coach ride, try Algeria, India, Beruit, Oman, Egypt, Bahrain, or Dubai as I have in the past few months! It's not the speed, but the style, and aggressiveness of the drivers!

Wassail! Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM

Phot - found that in Tunisia - a really scary cab ride! Drivers in Southern Italy, in particular, seemed to have that aggresive streak built in - we saw more accidents there in three days than in the whole of numerous trhee week trips to the continent.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM

Oh, yes...also in Oaxaca, Malaysia coming up from Singapore, and Morocco. Those bus drivers will put the fear of eternity into you in no time flat!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM

I was riding a motor bike in St. Maartin, on my side of the road going at a reasonable speed when a native came at me on a curve. His speed wasn't as much of a problem as his being on MY side of the road.
I ended up in a rock pile with the bike on top of me.He did stop and apologize, but if he spoke English he pretended he didn't.
I haven't ridden since.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 03:04 PM

You could have taken his side, Kendall! :D Just set in yer ways, I guess... :D


A


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 03:15 PM

Perhaps he was English, and driving on the English side of the road, but felt embarrassed. (That actually happened to a mate of my son, off on holiday to France. Woke up in the morning, roared off on the left hand side as per normal...)


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 03:19 PM

There are already speed restriction devices in cars. They're called drivers.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Big Phil
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM

I think a guy with a red flag should walk at the front of every car on the road, any danger, flag is waved, driver sees flag, slows from 5mph to 1mph, danger averted, simple.......


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:38 PM

Here in Virgina they have signs up that read "Speed Limits Enforced from Aircraft" but ya' ever see a Preditor take out a Lexus SUV in the Beltway??? Well, Hell no, ya' don't... Bluff, bluff, bluff...

Yeah, take out a couple of these speeders with Preditors or F-16's and guess what??? Speedin' will end...

As fir makin' folks drive VW's??? Another good idea but then you'd have folks fallin' thru all them rusty floor boards which would create a big ol' mess... Plus, ol' VeeDubs is fir true hippies and not the wnatabees...

Bobert (true hippie...)


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:02 PM

back in the 70s after the arab oil embargo, the US govt brought in the 55mph speed limit on the highways, and the overall #of traffic fatalities dropped significantly.

regarding the left and right side of the road..
(thread drift)
my grandfather drove an oxcart for a brewery in wartime Czechoslovakia.
THe Czechs drove on the left as in England, but when the Germans came they immediately switched all traffic over to the right.
Which was ok for vehicles, but the darned oxen kept going over to the left side. Eventually they got to an intersection where a german soldier yelled at him to get them over to the right, he gave up and handed the reins to the soldier and walked away.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:38 PM

Thevbloke with a red flag was brought in for steamrollers on the roads. And for steamrollers it was a pretty good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Bert
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:01 PM

I think that drivers would respect speed limits more if they were realistic, and not traps set to gain income for the local authorities.

How can you you expect Joe Soap to know which speed limit is set for the road conditions and which is a speed trap?


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

What difference does it make for the driver? The penalty is going to be the same either way if you're caught breaking it. More significantly, the penalty points that risk your driving licence. (Or do you have those in the USA?)


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Sooz
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 02:42 AM

Two things missing from driver training are patience and imagination.
No-one has to overtake - it's a choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:37 AM

"I think that drivers would respect speed limits more if they were realistic, and not traps set to gain income for the local authorities."

So you always drive within the speed limit, even when there's not a speed camera there? I woder why people buy these detector devices.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: s&r
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:07 AM

Not quite steamrollers Kevin - steam driven vehicles preceded the internal combustion engine on the road

"The Early Days

Prior to the appearance of the first railways in Britain, there was a brief development and interest in steam powered road going vehicles. In 1834, a Mr Hancock started a steam coach called the "Era", carrying up to 14 passengers from Paddington to Regents Park and the City at 6d a head. In the following year, a Mr Church built an omnibus capable of carrying 40 passengers for the London and Birmingham Steam Carriage Company.

However, the success of the railway movement drove all such traffic off the roads. A Parliamentary Commission of Enquiry in 1836 reported "strongly in favour of steam carriages on roads", but subsequent Acts of Parliament tended to have a discouraging and restrictive effect. The Locomotive Act 1861 limited the weight of steam engines to 12 tonnes and imposed a speed limit of 10 mph. The Locomotive Act 1865 set a speed limit of 4 mph in the country and 2 mph in towns. The 1865 Act also provided for the then famous "man with a red flag". Walking 60 yards ahead of each vehicle, a man with a red flag or lantern enforced a walking pace, and warned horse riders and horse drawn traffic of the approach of a self propelled machine.

The Locomotive Amendment Act 1878 made the red flag optional under local regulations, and reduced the distance of the warning to a more manageable 20 yards. But this did not make life much easier for the motorist. Although British engineers were working on electrical and combustion engines, and motor vehicles had been patented as early as 1882, they were never developed."

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:02 AM

When I was taught to drive (6X6 trucks and Landrovers in the CMF) I was told that the most lethal part of the vehicle was the nut holding the steering wheel.

While the "predicted" shortage of fossil fules may limit the effects of testosterone poisoning it won't eliminate it; that Sunracer (all photovoltaics) shot down the Stuart Highway faster than I could in my LandCruiser. At the moment, that highway has no speed limits in the Northern Territory (outside townships) but you wouldn't want to drive much faster than 60kph (~32mph) after dark, cos the kangaroos, camels, water buffalo and feral horses don't wear reflectors.

The global nature of the economy may yet ameliorate some of the technical attributes of vehicles so that everybody gets something they want and something else they'll just have to put up with. The Australians (Victorians, actually) led the push for seat belts after the iron fist of the guy in charge of building the Snowy Mtns Hydro Scheme demonstrated their use reduced driver fatalities to 1/3 of the rate at other, similar, events. The Americans dragged the chain on this, preferring freedom of speech or the ability to remain unrestrained, but they are leading the push for zero atmosphere pollution from exhausts. Anyone who wants to sell vehicles into those (and other markets), like the Japanese, builds such technology into everything they sell. Of course, whether the Americans actuallu use the anchors for seat belts, or the Australians actually keep their vehicles tuned to emit zero pollution is another matter. But I think the hip pocket nerve will have more dampening effect on the mass of drivers than any special technology.

Semitrailers in Australia (articulated vehicles that Americans call 18 wheelers, although ours have 22; I'm not sure what Europeans and Brits call them) routinely are fitted with speed limiters that limit their speed to 100kph (~60mph); they even have signs on them advertising the fact and I know they have recorders logging about 10 different parameters including speed. But most of them overtake me at a handsome clip when my speedo indicates I'm doing 100 clicks. The only heavy vehicles I've seen religiously stick to speed limits are the Northern Territory Road Trains, where one prime mover pulls three 'semi' trailers behind it, making a total vehicle length of ~50 metres. They are required to reach 80kph, from a standing start, in about 500 metres and cruise at 80kph. They can be a devil to overtake (or even pass, on some roads) but you can be sure that they'll clear the road of any slow moving beasts that don't get out of their way.

So I'm happy to stick behind them.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM

A Maine state trooper stopped a woman from Massachusettes for speeding. As he was writing the ticket, she said sarcastically, "Don't you cops ever give warnings"? He answered, "Yes, there's one right there" pointing to a sign that said SPEED LIMIT 35.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:22 PM

I've never understood why speed cameras aren't concealed. As it is, it implicitly invites people to drive at speed everywhere else, and slow down for the cameras.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Peace
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:02 PM

It should be noted too that the posted speeds are maximums. WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DRIVE THE MAXIMUM! If the roads are icy and you're doing the limit, you are breaking the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Dazbo
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:09 AM

Two of the many things that really piss me off about speed cameras are that 1) you can be pissed out of your head but if you're doing less that 30 the camera will not get you but on an open, clear road you'll get busted for doing 34 perfectly sober and safely and 2) vehicles pulling trailers that are limited by law to 60 can break their speed limit by 10 with impunity and be a damned sight more dangerous than a car doing 80

(based on UK speed limits of 30mph and 70mph)

ps touch wood I've not yet been busted for speeding.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM

Well, you can't very well expect a speed camera to carry out a breath-test on every passing driver who might be drunk. You could just as well say that it's wrong that bank robbers who don't speed don't get picked up.

What annoys me is when they don't clearly enough indicate the limit. The only time I've been done for speeding was on a local road where there is a stretch which is 40 mph in between a pretty well identical stretch that is 50 and another that is National Speed Limit (ie 55). It is indicated, but only when you are entering it, and it's easy to miss the small sign.

But I should have been looking more carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Dazbo
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 04:21 PM

That's why 1) pisses me off, MoH. The cameras are there 'for our safety' yet only penalise one type of unsafe driving whilst ignoring others, which may be more hazardous. They have replaced a human with a machine but that machine isn't capable of doing the full job.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 04:31 PM

Such as being over the drink limit? How could any camera spot that? How could a human being for that matter?

After all, most people who are over the drink limit don't veer all over the road in an obvious way. It's more a question of having slower reactions, so that in a crisis they take longer to stop or take evasive action, and they crash into something. Similar to what happens when a sober driver is driving too fast - the same result, but achieved by a different mechanism.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:22 PM

At the time, I'd been driving for 55 years. I got stopped for speeding. I was guilty, and I paid the fine, I did not winge.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:05 AM

Speed cameras ought to be made capable of detecting (among other things):

- failure to maintain correct distance between vehicles ("tailgating"), particularly on motorways;
- use of mobile phone by drivers;
- throwing of litter from vehicles;

Desirable, but probably not possible with current technology are:

- driving while under the influence of alcohol;
- driving while under the influence of any other controlled substance;
- driving while under the influence of testosterone;

I rather suspect that there will be too much resistance to any statutory legal limitation of the top speed of a car, but it will be possible to price oversouped cars off the road by a progressively higher road tax for faster cars, increased insurance rates etc. For example, in the late 1970's, teenaged motorcyclists (who were wrapping themselves around trees with alarming regularity) were effectively priced off the road by the inability to obtain insurance, long before the current regulations which make it difficult to obtain a legal licence to ride a high-powered motorcycle.

Incidentally, I was once fined £40 and collected three penalty points on the licence for speeding (42 mph in a 30 mph zone). This was in 1994, but I ought perhaps to appeal, since the speed limit on the stretch of road where this occurred was later raised to 40 mph. This is a very rare event in the UK, but it was a road which approached a dual carriageway. Cars proceeding at 30 mph into the dual carriageway with a limit of 60 mph suddenly found themselves in a jostling pack of frantically accelerating vehicles, rather like the dash into the first bend of a Formula 1 race. Raising the speed limit reduced bunching and actually cut down the number of accidents.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:36 AM

...I ought perhaps to appeal Whether the speed limit was too low is irrelevant. The offence involved is that of exceeding the speed limit that exists.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 07:41 AM

The NT is currently abolishing the unrestricted speed limit.

My 'shopping trolley' is an 81 Charade. Front WD 50-55 mpg on the highway (100 km/hr - 60 mph) fully laden - 3 cylinder 900 ccs.... :-) it has even been known on the odd occassion to be capable enough to exceed 130 km/hr... but being very light - it is relatively easy to stop - even without power braking or power steering. Runs on unleaded, no emission 'afterburner' - just keep it well tuned!

I did partake in motor sport (mainly dirt or grass - you can do on dirt at 30-40 mph what you need 90-100 mph on tarmac to do...) when much younger in my Fiat 128 (1200 cc) - it never went fast enough in good conditions to outdrive the road conditions.... and could outdrive Falcon 500's on mountain roads... :-) especially in the rain...


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: s&r
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 02:37 PM

National speed limit is 60mph for non motorways or dual carriageways (diagonal bar on white background)

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: s&r
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 02:38 PM

PS UK

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Big Phil
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:24 PM

Here in the UK many so called safety cameras are nothing more than cash cows for a Government which is obsessed in taking money from us by stealth. As a truck driver I have seen hundreds of the bloody things which are placed in areas doing nothing for safety, but doing the maximum for fund collection, this is what pisses people off the most.
As for speed limits, most are now outdated as they were set in the days of cars with drum brakes which did take a week to stop from 60mph, the modern car is now much advanced in the braking department.
By the way I have no axe to grind, as an HGV driver for 30 years with a clean license, and never been done for speeding......


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:54 PM

Safety cameras aren't relevant in themselves. Whether the camera is there or not the speed limit is the same. If it's too low the right thing to do is to try to get it changed, and keep within it until then.

Hidden mobile cameras would make more sense than fixed ones. They could probably get away with fewer of them to achieve the same result - and spend the money on better signs indicating the speed limit, and warning that speed cameras are liable to be watching if we break it.

Brakes may have improved, but drivers haven't. However good the brakes are, they can't start working until the driver has applied them - and the faster the car, the more distance will have been covered in the meantime.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: HuwG
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:55 PM

As might be imagined, BBC's "Top Gear" team had some harsh things to say about speed cameras. They reckoned that the death rate on the roads had not fallen by any statistically detectable amount, while the fines collected from speeding drivers snapped by Mr. Gatso (a well-known brand of camera) had increased fourfold. They therefore concluded that the stated reason for their deployment was nonsense.

I believe that the Institute of Advanced Drivers concluded (from what source or reasoning, I don't know) that speed cameras had saved perhaps 20 lives. On the other hand a judge in Birmingham wondered whether they hadn't actually caused some accidents (passing judgement on two motorists convicted of driving without due care and attention, through gazing upwards looking for the camera rather than at the sharply decelerating cars in front of them).

Other instances where I believe the authorities have had to backtrack on ill-advised "safety" measures, were a yellow grid (which drivers may not enter unless they can exit it, designed to prevent traffic jams at junctions), in London which was so huge that nobody could legally enter it. A driver who had sat for ten minutes waiting for a clear exit was told by a PC to move or he would be charged with obstruction, entered and was promptly snapped by an enforcement camera.

Incidentally, I should add to my list of driving offences which should be made detectable by camera:

- cutting right-hand bends (far, far too common in my experience);
- driving while under the influence of peroxide;
- driving in the manner of Starsky and Hutch, with pounding adrenaline-charged seventies rock music on the cassette player.

****

"Excuse me miss. Would you mind blowing into this bag?"
"Of course not, officer, but why? I wasn't breaking any speed limits."
"No miss, but I want to cool my chips down."

****

"Excuse me madam, but you were exceeding the speed limit back there."
"But officer, I thought you never arrested pretty women motorists."
"Correct, madam. You do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but anything you do say ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 08:59 AM

I see the cameras as a joke. You get plenty of warning that there is one just ahead, so how numb do you have to be to get caught speeding?
In addition, they do nothing about aggressive drivers, drunks or tail gaters.
The cash cow thing doesn't apply here because the fines do not go to the town in which they are levied.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM

Re the hidden or visible speed cameras. We don't have either in my town, but we do have police radar. A few vehicles are probably still equipped with "fixed mounted" units, but mostly they're hand-held jobs that can be used in any vehicle - visibly marked or unmarked.

One may pick up the local newspaper, or listen to any of several radio stations to get a 24-hour notice of where the "scheduled radars" will be located for the day. The information often includes "hours of operation." Only rarely, there may be "unscheduled" radar observers randomly about in the town.

The publishing of the daily radar locations is with the complete "blessing" of the police, on grounds that being reminded daily that "they're out there" has a positive effect on the observance of speed limits by the majority of the driving population.

Almost everyone accepts that there will be those "exceptional people" who will speed regardless of what's done short of catching them in the act and assessing appropriate fines and/or other penalties. We have a lot of those here too.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM

We have a few unmarked cars that don't look anything like cruisers; for instance, A red Camaro, or a black Dodge.
The state of Maine spends tens of thousands of dollars to put up warning signs such as, SPEED LIMIT 35, so, if you get grabbed for doing 50, whos fault is it?
The cop doesn't get a dime of that fine either. I have no sympathy for anyone who thinks the law doesn't apply to them. At 60 mph you are going 88 feet per SECOND. It takes a full second to even see a problem, and depending on your age, another half a second to react, and another 240 feet to stop. That's why we have speed limits.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 03:12 PM

they do nothing about aggressive drivers, drunks or tail gaters.

No and they don't make sure our tyres are pumped up, or that we remembered our wedding anniversary and tied up our shoe laces. They have their limitations - they just spot people who are driving faster than the local speed limit.

True enough, drunks, aggressive drivers and tailgaters are menaces. But the danger from all those menaces is amplfied when the speed is higher, especially the last. My general policy if someone is driving too close behind me is to slow down, if possible. (I'd like to see an instrument which would vigorously alert drivers when they are driving too close to the car ahead for the speed at which they are going.)

As for people being distracted by looking around for speed cameras, or slowing down when they come up to them and speeding the rest of the time, those things happen because speed cameras are forced to advertise their presence. Drive within the limit and you never need to worry about speed cameras.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 06:18 PM

If someone is tailgating me I used to touch the brake lightly, but one time a woman saw me just in time to avoid hitting me. She jumped on the brakes and nearly lost control of her car.
Now, if someone is too close, I simply turn on my windshield washers and much of the liquid goes over the top of the car and onto the followers windshield. They usually back off.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 09:12 PM

McGrath of Harlow
Regarding your post of 19th December, you make the comment about a " small spped limit sign sign".
In UK speed limit signs must be of a particular size at the beginning and ending of a limited stretch of road, with smaller repeater signs at regular intervals, depending upon whether or not the street is lit and the distance between lamp standards.
All local authorities have to abide by these national requirements. Any failure by the local authority can deem the signing to be confusing and any relevant court case should throw out the case.

In the same vein, I have noticed that there are a number of areas in UK with 30 mph signs on unlit roads. I was taught during all of my tests (ordinary driving licence, Public Service Vehicle Class 1, Heavy Goods Vehicle Class 1, and Police Class 1) that a 30 mph limit was demarcated by street lights at no more than 200 yard (metre) intervals and the conventional 30 mph signs.
Could someone with a legal bent please tell me if the "rules" have changed to allow 30 limits on unlit streets. Also are the speed limit signs flanked by yellow backgrounds legal? Where is the government information to motorists?
Colyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:16 AM

It's too bad we need signs at all. If people would use their heads they would be unnecessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: s&r
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 06:34 AM

It's all in here somewhere

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Peace
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:56 PM

From s&r's link.

"    (2) On an occasion where a vehicle is being used for fire brigade, ambulance, bomb or explosive disposal, national blood service or police purposes and the observance of the requirement specified in paragraph (1) would be likely to hinder the use of that vehicle for one of those purposes then, instead of that requirement, the requirement conveyed by the sign in question shall be that the vehicle shall not proceed beyond that sign in such a manner or at such a time as to be likely to endanger any person.    "

Clear as a fookin' bell.


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:43 PM

TRANSFUSION
Nervous Norvus


ZZZZZZOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMM
Tooling down the highway doing 79
I'm a twin-pipe papa and I'm feelin fine
Hey man dig that--was that a red stop sign-

(scrreeech-BANG!!tinkle)

Transfusion transfusion
I'm just a solid mess of contusions
Never never never gonna speed again
Slip the blood to me Bud

I jump in my rod about a quarter to nine
I gotta make a date with that chick of mine
I cross the center line--man you gotta make time-

(scrreeech-BANG!!tinkle)

Transfusion transfusion
Oh man I got the cotton-pickin convolutions
Never never never gonna speed again
Shoot the juice to me Bruce

My foot's on the throttle and it's made of lead
But I'm a fast-riding daddy with a real cool head
I'm a-gonna pass a truck on the hill ahead-

(scrreeech-BANG!!tinkle)

Transfusion transfusion
My red corpsuckles (sic) are in mass confusion
Never never never gonna speed again
Pass the crimson to me Jimson

I took a little drink and I'm feelin right
I can fly right over everything--everything in sight
There's a slow-poking cat I'm gonna pass him on the right-

(scrreeech-BANG!!tinkle)

Transfusion transfusion
I'm a real gone paleface and that's no illusion
I'm-a never never never gonna speed again
Pass the claret to me Barrett

A-rollin down the mountain on a rainy day
Oh when you see me coming better start to pray
I'm a-cuttin up the road and I'm the boss all the way-

(scrreeech-BANG!!tinkle)

Transfusion transfusion
Oh doc pardon me for this crazy intrusion
I'm never never never gonna speed again
Pump the fluid in me Louie

I'm burning up the highway early this morn
I'm passing everybody oh nothing but corn
Man outa my way I don't drive with my horn-

(scrreeech-BANG!!tinkle)

Transfusion transfusion
Oh nurse I'm gonna make a new resolution
I'm never never never gonna speed again
Put a gallon in me Alan

Oh barnyard drivers are found in two classes
Line-crowding hogs and speeding jackasses
So remember to slow down today
Hey daddy-o
Make that type O, huh?
Atta-boy


Spaw


(scrreeech-BANG!!tinkle)


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Peace
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:47 PM

Got out really early from the factory
Driving like a nut in the rain
Dont think I was acting so hysterically
But I didnt see a thing until it came
Man the drunks were verbal in the takeaway
Beating up the chinese at the counter

I put a few inside me
At the end of the day
I took out my revenge
On the revolution counter

Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Youd think by now at least that
Half my brain would get the message
Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Into a brand new car

In walks bud with his exploding nose
Hed been giving it maximum today
He shouted how the devil
You in trouble I suppose
But all you ever do is run away
Turned up the motor into hyper-drive
I wasnt gonna take any of that
Dont get bright ideas about a suicide
cause all I ever hear
Is zoom wam bam past me

Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Youd think by now at least that
Half my brain would get the message
Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Into a brand new car

Crawling, crawling, crawling from the wreckage
Crawling, crawling, crawling from the wreckage
Crawling, crawling, crawling from the wreckage

Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Bits of me are scattered
In the trees and in the hedges
Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Into a brand new car

Nothing seem to happen that aint happened before
I see it all through flashes of depression
I dry up my drink and hear
People running for the door
God I make some kind of impression
cause when Im disconnected from the driving wheel
Im only half the man I should be
But metal hitting metal isnt all I feel
And everything is good as
It possible could be

Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Youd think by now at least that
Half my brain would get the message
Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Into a brand new car

Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Bits of me are scattered
In the trees and in the hedges
Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Into a brand new car

Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling from the wreckage
Crawling, crawling
Crawling from the wreckage


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:58 PM

HOT ROD LINCOLN

Well you heard the story of the hot rod race
That fatal day when the Ford and the Mercury went out to play
Well this is the inside story and I'm here to say
I was the kid that was a drivin' that Model A.

Well it's got a Lincoln motor and it's really souped up
But that Model A body makes it look like a pup
Got 12 cylinders and uses them all
With an overdrive that just won't stall.

Got a 4 barrel carb and dual exhaust
With a 4.11 gear you can really get lost
Got safety tubes and I'm not scared
'Cause the brakes are good and the tires are fair.

Well we left San Pedro late one night
The moon and the stars were shinin' bright
Everything went fine up the Grapevine Hill
We was passin' cars, just like they was standin' still.

When all of the sudden in the flick of an eye
A Cadillac sedan had passed me by
The remark was made, "There's the car for me"
But by then the taillights was all you could see.

Well the fellas ribbed me for bein' behind
So I started to make that Lincoln unwind
I took my foot off the gas
And man alive, I shoved her down into overdrive

I wound her up to 110
Twisted the speedometer cable right off the end
I had my foot beat clear to the floor
Said "That's all there is, there ain't no more."

Went around a corner and I passed a truck
Whispered a prayer, just for luck
Fenders clickin' on the guard rail posts
The guys beside me were white as ghosts.

They said, "Boy I think you've lost your sense
Them telephone poles look like a picket fence."
Said "Slow down...I see spots
Them lines in the road they just look like dots."

Smoke was a rollin' outta' the back
When I started to gain on that Cadillac
Knew I could catch him and hoped I could pass
But when I did, I be sure to UN-gas!

Went around the corner with the tires on the side
You could feel the tension, Man whadda' ride
Said, "Hold on I gotta' license to fly"
The Caddy pulled over...Let me go by

Just about then a rod started knockin'
Went down in a dip and started to rockin'
Looked in my mirror and a red light was blinkin'
Cops.....after my hot rod Lincoln

Well they arrested me and they put me in jail
Called my Pop to go my bail
He said, "Son, you're gonna' drive me to drinkin'
If you don't quit drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln."




Spaw - It's a favorite of Cletus, Buford and Paw


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:33 PM

A nut at the wheel,
A peach on his right,
A curve in the road,
Fruite salad tonight.

Burma Shave


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Peace
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:35 PM

I was cruisin' in my Stingray late one night,
When an XKE pulled up on the right
He rolled down the window of his shiny new Jag,
And challenged me then and there to a drag

I said "You're on buddy -- my mill's running fine,
Let's come off the line now at Sunset and Vine
But I'll go you one better, if you've got the nerve,
Let's race all the way -- to Dead Man's Curve"

(Dead Man's Curve) is no place to play
(Dead Man's Curve) you'd best keep away
(Dead Man's Curve) I can hear 'em say:
"Won't come back from Dead Man's Curve"

The street was deserted late Friday night;
We were buggin' each other while we sat out the light
We both popped the clutch when the light turned green,
You shoulda heard the whine from my screamin' machine!

I flew past La Brea, Schwab's and Crescent Heights,
And all the Jag could see were my six taillights
He passed me at Doheny then I started to swerve,
But I pulled her out and there we were - at Dead Man's Curve

(Dead Man's Curve) is no place to play
(Dead Man's Curve... [sounds of skids and crashes] )

(Spoken): "Well, the last thing I remember, Doc,
I started to swerve
And then I saw the Jag slide into the curve
I know I'll never forget that horrible sight,
I guess I found out for myself that everyone was right"

Won't come back from Dead Man's Curve...

(Dead Man's Curve) is no place to play
(Dead Man's Curve) you'd best keep away
(Dead Man's Curve) I can hear 'em say:
"Won't come back from Dead Man's Curve"

(Dead Man's Curve) is no place to play
(Dead Man's Curve) you'd best keep away
(Dead Man's Curve) I can hear 'em say:
"Won't come back from Dead Man's Curve" (fade)


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: kendall
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:37 PM

Just the other day a 20 year old crossed the center line and hit another car head on. Both cars are unrecognizable and all six people were killed. The driver had been arrested and had a suspended license for OUI last February.What do we do with losers like him?


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Subject: RE: BS: speed restrictions in cars
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 12:43 PM

Bury what's left of him.


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