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Meaning- masters in this hall

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NOWEL SYNG WE


GUEST,Julia 20 Dec 06 - 10:41 PM
Peace 20 Dec 06 - 10:49 PM
leeneia 20 Dec 06 - 10:58 PM
GUEST 21 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM
nutty 21 Dec 06 - 11:17 AM
skipy 21 Dec 06 - 11:20 AM
Scrump 21 Dec 06 - 11:52 AM
leeneia 21 Dec 06 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Julia 21 Dec 06 - 05:35 PM
CapriUni 21 Dec 06 - 07:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Dec 06 - 08:33 PM
Trevor 22 Dec 06 - 08:56 AM
Scrump 22 Dec 06 - 09:44 AM
IanC 22 Dec 06 - 09:53 AM
Scrump 22 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM
Joe Offer 29 Apr 16 - 09:48 PM
Joe Offer 29 Apr 16 - 09:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:41 PM

I seem to be having trouble posting- sorry

I'd like to know the meaning of the "hinds" in the last verse of this carol-

And a little child on her arm had she
"wot ye who is this" said the hinds to me

So who or what are the "hinds"

I have read that these lyrics are some kind of translation by William Morris (the pre-raphaelite artist?)

cheers
Julia


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Peace
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:49 PM

"[Alteration of Middle English hine, household servants, possibly from Old English hne, genitive of hgan, hwan, members of a household; see kei-1 in Indo-European roots.]"

That would make sense, I think.


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:58 PM

thanks, Peace. that's a new word for me.


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM

HIND - locally (i.e. when used as a census occupation), a farm manager; more generally, a farm servant

i.e. the shepherds


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: nutty
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:17 AM

a hind is also a female red deer


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: skipy
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:20 AM

Chiefly British. A farm laborer, especially a skilled worker.
Archaic. A country bumpkin; a rustic.
[Alteration of Middle English hine, household servants, possibly from Old English hîne, genitive of hîgan, hîwan, members of a household.]
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:52 AM

I think it's unlikely that the meaning in this case is a female deer. It would be unusual for them to say "wot ye who is this".


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 05:26 PM

And now I understand the heretofore baffling song "Hind Horn." (It's in the DT.)


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 05:35 PM

Thanks so much! I can now sing it with conviction. I tend to avoid singing things that don't make sense to me

harpy holly daze

Julia


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:33 PM

Could this share the same root with the term "farm hands?"


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 08:33 PM

Hands, meaning help, seems to have been common by the 17th c.
A person employed by any other in any manual work; 1655.
Applied to a ship's crew, 1699

The OED doesn't mention the possible derivation of this usage from 'hind,' but the suggestion by CapriUni seems possible.


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Trevor
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:56 AM

Is this also the root of 'hinny' as used in the NE of England? I'd always thought that it was derived from 'hen', as in 'chick', but maybe not.


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:44 AM

I believe 'hinny' is derived from 'hen' too. But I'm not a Geordie - where are they all when you need them?


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: IanC
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:53 AM

Hinny is derived from Honey.l


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM

According to wikipedia, a hinny is the offspring of a male horse and a female donkey.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:48 PM

Thread #27932   Message #345633
Posted By: John P
23-Nov-00 - 08:19 AM
Thread Name: Help: 18th century songs, tunes and carols
Subject: Lyr Add: MASTERS IN THIS HALL^^

Masters in This Hall

Masters in this hall, hear you news today
Brought from over sea, and every you I pray.

Chorus:
Nowell, nowell, nowell!
Nowell sing we clear!
Holpen are all folk on earth
Born is God's son so dear!
Nowell, nowell, nowell!
Nowell sing we loud!
God today hath poor folk raised
And cast a-down the proud.

Then to Bethle'm town we went two by two
And in a sorry place heard the oxen low.

Therein did we see a sweet and goodly may
And a fair old man, upon the straw she lay.

And a little child on her arm had she
"Wot ye who is this?" said the hinds to me.

This is Christ the lord, Masters, be ye glad
Christmas is come and no folk should be sad.


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Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:54 PM

And the Traditional Ballad Index enry:

Masters in This Hall

DESCRIPTION: "Masters in this hall, hear ye news today." The singer announces the good news "brought from oversea" of the birth of Jesus. The shepherds go to visit the child.
AUTHOR: Words: William Morris
EARLIEST DATE: 1860 ("Antient (sic) Christmas Carols"); the tune is said to be French and to predate the lyrics
KEYWORDS: Christmas religious
FOUND IN:
REFERENCES (4 citations):
OBC 137, "Masters in this Hall" (1 text, 1 tune)
Rickert, pp. 288-291, "Masters, in this Hall" (1 text)
Silber-FSWB, p. 375, "Masters In This Hall" (1 text)
ADDITIONAL: Ian Bradley, _The Penguin Book of Carols_ (1999), #51, "Masters in This Hall." (1 text)

RECORDINGS:
Pete Seeger, "Master in This Hall" (on PeteSeeger42)
NOTES: The carol books say that this is by WIlliam Morris and based on a French piece. But I note a curiosity. Item #56 in Richard Greene, editor, A Selection of English Carols, Clarendon Medieval and Tudor Series, Oxford/Clarendon Press, 1962 (pp. 116-117) begins
Nowel, nowel, nowel,
SIng we with myrth;
Cryst is come wel,
With us to dewell,
By hys most noble byrth.
This comes from Bodleian MS. Eng. poet e. 1, one of the great carol manuscripts, of the fifteenth century. Greene, p. 223, suggests that it is a "religious imitation of a secular lyric." I can't help but wonder if this somehow influenced Morris. - RBW
Last updated in version 3.8
File: FSWB375C

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2015 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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