BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:14 AM

The only difference between an empty army camp surrounded by barbed wire and patrolled by armed guards and a concentration camp is occupants.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:11 AM

THat's all you've got? You, sir, are an ass.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:11 PM

But Firth classified the people arrested in Seattle as "knuckle-draggers and teenagers." The article regarding the lawsuit mentions neither. If I'm confused, it's because I'm being fed conflicting information. I wonder why Firth has such low regard for the residents of his fair city?

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:01 PM

Two possibilities here: either "guest" is so addled there is no point in trying to communicate with him, or he has no real interest in anything except trolling and raising what his twisted little mind thinks is an amusing stink. I would bet on the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:54 PM

Seattle was the capital city of the grunge movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:50 PM

You're the one who called the poor unfortunates arrested in Seattle "knuckle-draggers and teenagers," not me. So are you also saying only knuckle-draggers and teenagers live in Seattle? Seems a bit harsh.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:06 PM

You keep on trying to misrepresent what I said, GUEST. Rather than repeat it yet again, I invite people who may be in doubt to read it for themselves. That will amply demonstrate how you can't seem to grasp even the simple things--like plain English. Either that, or you are as I say you are:   a deliberate liar.

GUEST, there is a group in northern Idaho and another in eastern Oregon where you would fit right in. Lots of guns, they dress in fatigues and play war games. They can't all agree on which conspiracy theory to believe, but whichever one it is, they're all set to rush right in and murder anything that moves.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 09:44 PM

Hmm, the system ate my post.

So much for Magnuson Park being a "concentration camp." It wasn't even adequate to hold 500 knuckle-draggers and teenagers.

Firth puts the people arrested in Seattle into 2 groups--knuckle-draggers and teenagers. Then this group of pedestrians wins the lawsuit. So which are they, knuckle-draggers or teens? The article gives the judge's name, so chastise her for finding in favor of the knucks and teens.

And yes, Little Hawk, I imagine those were globalist provocateurs. The WTO thing was too good to pass up. Throw a few trashcans then lock up a bunch of people so America gets the message.

As far as guns, buy lots. Buy them, lock them up, then wait until they're needed. Your neighbors aren't buying guns as long as they're buying the line of BS being peddled by the Democrats and Republicans. So when the next disturbance happens, and your neighbors wish they had guns to defend their homes, hand out the firearms. Form your temporary militia to protect your neighborhood, then when the crisis is over, lock the guns away again. You can't count on the government to protect you.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 09:20 PM

Yes, I understand your point perfectly. Seems to me the best way to fight back is to spread information to as many people as possible...in other words, the do the same thing the government does. That's why it's called "Infowars".

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 08:39 PM

And this is why I object to GUEST's "solution" to the problems he raises. "Buy guns and ammo!" What would constitute a better excuse for the government to round up peace marchers, demonstrators, and protesters and herd them into detention camps than for some of the demostrators to show up armed? And if they were to start using their guns, that would cllnch it.

There is ample reason to question GUEST's motives.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 02:49 PM

Or, as you say, the WTO hired the goons. Equally likely, if not more so. It's power politics out there, and power politics knows no scruples and has no mercy.

One thing the $ySStem hates above all else is mass protest that is done in a totally peaceful manner...because it makes the $ySStem look bad to beat up totally peaceful people! Look what Gandhi did with nonviolent action. Guess why he was finally killed? Guess why they killed Martin Luther King? They'd much rather that protestors were violent and walked around brandishing guns and issuing threats, like the Black Panthers, because you can easily justify killing people who walk around brandishing guns and issuing threats...but what do you do about totally nonviolent people?

Well...you arrange some way of making them look violent, dirty, drug-using, or dangerous, that's how. It can be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 02:35 PM

I think, Don, that there is a great likelihood that the government itself arranged for some agents-provocateurs to instigate that riot and encourage various young and foolish people to join them in destroying property. It would have been easy to do, it would have required only a handful of such agents, and it is a tactic that has long been used by the government to discredit any peaceful protest movements and tar all protestors with the same brush. The government wishes the general public to see protestors as dangerous anarchists. How easily that is done when a few foolish people can be manipulated into acting out the part.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:47 PM

"Don Firth considers you a knuckle-dragger if you believe in freedom of speech and the right to assemble, or if you're against wrongful arrest."

GUEST, you are a liar. You are deliberately trying to misrepresent what I said.

First, I repeat, for your enlightenment and edification, what I actually did say:

In what started out as a peaceful demonstration involving some 40,000 people, there were about 200 goons who tried to turn the demonstration into a riot and ran amok downtown, setting fires and smashing store windows. Others got involved, mostly kids being stupid. Since major property damage was being done and some people were being physically assaulted, the Seattle Police Department rounded up about 500 people. The King County jail couldn't hold them all, so they were bused out to Magnuson Park. The former Navy brig (eight cells—no longer there, by the way) was obviously inadequate, so the rioters were kept on the buses, booked, and released. The whole thing took about six hours altogether. Most of the people rounded up were teenagers who were released to their parents.

So much for Magnuson Park being a "concentration camp." It wasn't even adequate to hold 500 knuckle-draggers and teenagers.

The vast majority of the peaceful marchers and demonstrators—some 40,000 people—left when the self-styled "anarchists" started their rampage, smashing store windows and setting fires in Dumpsters and pushing them up against buildings in hopes that the buildings would catch fire. The peaceful demonstrators, mostly union members, had made their point, and they wisely got out of there when the riots started. There were a number of people who were not involved in the protest who just hung around to rubberneck. When the Seattle Police ordered the crowd to disperse, the rioters, of course, did not. Nor did a lot of people who were there to rubberneck. And it was these latter who got rounded up along with the rioters since many of them were among the rioters and were indistinguishable from them.

In a highly questionable case, U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman ruled that these folks were arrested without probable cause. The city maintained that if they were at the scene of the rioting at all after being ordered to disperse, there was indeed probable cause to arrest them. Courts of law do not always make correct decisions!

When and where these 157 people were arrested, there was not a peaceful protest in progress. It was a riot.

I have participated in peace marches, demonstrations, and protests. To try to claim that I am in any way opposed to freedom of speech or the right to assemble is a scurrilous lie.

It's obvious that GUEST is not interested in the truth, he just wants to spread his fear and hatred, and wind people up. Look at the number of threads he's started, all about the same kinds of things—taking what might be construed as a few elements of truth and building them into elaborate conspiracy theories. He gets his jollies that way.

And considering that, after having been challenged numerous times to offer suggestions or solutions to the problems he raises, all he comes up with is "Buy guns and ammo!" This person is not interested in freedom of speech or peaceful protest. He is a bomb-thrower. Only he doesn't have the guts to throw his own bombs. He wants us to do it for him.

Don Firth

P. S.   Okay, GUEST, here's a conspiracy theory for you to play with:   There are those who believe that the approximately 200 goons who turned the peaceful demonstration into a riot were sent there by the backers of the WTO to turn the peaceful protest into a riot in order to discredit the entire demonstration.

Along with a number of others who were witnesses to the "Battle in Seattle" up close, I tend to believe that this idea is not just a "theory." It gave the WTO organizers an excuse to severely restrict any future demonstrations at WTO conferences.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:02 AM

Not to his face--which incidentally is almost indistinguishable from his arse, but hey, ya know?

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:01 AM

Well, yes, some would say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:54 PM

Chongo's a knuckle head.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:52 PM

Chongo is a knuckle-dragger, and he's proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:41 PM

Don Firth considers you a knuckle-dragger if you believe in freedom of speech and the right to assemble, or if you're against wrongful arrest:

Federal judge: Seattle police lacked cause in WTO arrests

By The Associated Press
01.01.04
SEATTLE — A federal judge has ruled that Seattle police were unfounded in their arrest of protesters during the World Trade Organization riots in late 1999.

The Dec. 29 decision by U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman could leave the city vulnerable to a class-action lawsuit.

Pechman ruled that police had no probable cause when they arrested 157 protesters in downtown Seattle during the WTO conference held in December 1999.

The city maintained protesters were arrested for pedestrian interference only after they failed to disperse. Attorneys for the city could not be reached by The Seattle Times for comment for this report.

Protesters' lawyers argued that the arrests violated their clients' First and Fourth Amendment rights, guaranteeing free speech and protection from unreasonable searches and seizures.

Victoria Ni, an attorney with Trial Lawyers for Public Justice, said protesters and onlookers were trapped, herded and arrested by the Seattle Police Department outside of an area that had been established as a no-protest zone during the convention.

Protesters said they were forced down the street and arrested by police, who made no effort to separate the group from innocent bystanders, court documents said.

Plaintiffs' lawyers also contend all those arrested were booked into a holding center at Naval Station Puget Sound at Sand Point using the same photocopied arrest warrant and containing inaccurate information.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=12408

(That Sand Point mention must be a typo.)

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 05:06 PM

Sure .... Warfare is the ultimate in consumerism, that's for sure. ... but let's keep thinking on a positive note here ... think of the benefits to our society that are a direct result due to WAR ... such as the advancement of emergency hospital services, development in medicine overall .... development in plastics, computing, all terrain vehicles, 4 x 4's ... Quick instant meals for the family on the go, are a direct result of k-rations ... for you hunting enthusiasts there
s the advancment on the scopes you use on your rifles, the camouflage you wear when went out bagging a few ducks ... WAR, yes war can make our lives easier.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:47 PM

Thank you very much, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

Really? Well, how do you explain the fact that my bills are always paid on time, my credit cards never run up any interest, and I run a capitalist small business that's in the green? (despite being, philosophically speaking, a socialist in my general nature)

What I would like to see is a society that doesn't even have money at all, and has no poverty, and has more worthy motivating factors for people to put their energies into. Such a society was depicted on the Star Trek show, where the only people who cared about money were the corrupt and greedy Ferengi.

However, I know that's not going to happen here. No chance whatsoever of it happening. We are going to continue to have money as the prime motivating factor in this society. Accordingly, I handle money competently and deal with it because I must, not because I particularly want to. And I deal with if efficiently. Socialists are just as capable of understanding economics as anyone else is.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:39 PM

Right, Peace. I will indeed contact them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:37 PM

REX 84 was a Readiness Exercise (REX) held in April 1984. As with all such exercises, it involved the most outlandish scenario that anyone could come up with in order to bring as many agencies and military units (active, reserve and Guard) into the game as possible. In this case it included civil unrest and the need to temporarily detain people. Another exercise a few years later, and I can't recall its name or number, involved the eruption of Mt. Rainier. The VA hospital where I worked at the time, at American Lake south of Tacoma, Washington, was peripherally involved in REX 84...we used it to test our emergency response system, if I remember correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:33 PM

Warfare is the ultimate in consumerism, that's for sure.

"I have these 25,000 nuclear warheads here, and I ain't gettin' no takers for doing something constructive with them. Like, uh, what's THAT all about?"

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:16 PM

the Iraq war is now costing taxpayers almost $2 billion a week

Money that is boosting the money in AMERICAN Citizens pocketbooks. War is pumping money into the economy. War is kind. You will not find many illegal aliens on the payrolls of:

US STEEL
BOEING
HALIBURTON
FLOURE
GRUMMAN
NORTHROP
U.S. MILITARY FORCES and support services

Those dollars are reinvested into the pocketbooks of American Families, who pay taxes and spend their well earned money in America. As a "socialist" no-one expects you to have the faintest farthing of a concept about economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:48 PM

"Well, I'm not willing to simply lay down and whine till something like that happens (if, indeed, it ever does). That's why I am politically active."

Great, Don. Would you please ask your congressman/woman and senators about Rex 84? It would make many folks sleep easier. See what your elected reps have to say and what they can find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:35 PM

Fort Lawton, in the northwest section of Seattle, just north of Magnolia Bluff (overlooking Puget Sound), was turned over to the City of Seattle Department of Parks and Recreation some years back. It is now called Discovery Park. Picnic areas, sports fields, wooded areas to hike though, and the Daybreak Star (Native American) Cultural Center is also there. Nice recreation area. Nothing military left, no barbed wire. No armed guards. Lots of people go there, especially in the summer. Hiking trails. Beautiful, scenic area. CLICKY.

The Sand Point Naval Air Station in the northeast section of Seattle (on the shores of Lake Washington) was also decommissioned a few years back and it, too, was turned over to the Department of Parks and Recreation. It's now called Magnuson Park, named after a long-time Washington State Senator, the late Warren G. Magnuson (Dem.). Magnuson Park contains a number of buildings converted from military use, in which there are meeting rooms, classes of various kinds (art's, crafts, lectures, etc.), several converted hangars (the Seattle Public Library's annual "Friends of the Library" book sale is usually held in one of these), athletic areas (baseball field, soccer field, et al.), a sculpture garden, several picnic areas, boat ramps. . . .   No barbed wire anywhere. There's also a movie theater there. I have performed (singing folk songs, reading poetry) at Magnuson Park. They are currently having a Harry Potter festival there for kids, showing all three Harry Potter movies continuously. CLICKY. No armed guards there, either.

Following the WTO demonstration (the "Battle in Seattle") in 1999, some GUEST here on Mudcat started a couple of threads claiming that Magnuson Park was being used as a concentration camp. Ah, HAH! But not so. In what started out as a peaceful demonstration involving some 40,000 people, there were about 200 goons who tried to turn the demonstration into a riot and ran amok downtown, setting fires and smashing store windows. Others got involved, mostly kids being stupid. Since major property damage was being done and some people were being physically assaulted, the Seattle Police Department rounded up about 500 people. The King County jail couldn't hold them all, so they were bused out to Magnuson Park. The former Navy brig (eight cells—no longer there, by the way) was obviously inadequate, so the rioters were kept on the buses, booked, and released. The whole thing took about six hours altogether. Most of the people rounded up were teenagers who were released to their parents.

So much for Magnuson Park being a "concentration camp." It wasn't even adequate to hold 500 knuckle-draggers and teenagers. When I posted the real situation, said GUEST (who knew nothing about me other than that I describe the true situation) called me a liar and shill for the government. I am neither. I live here. He didn't. He had an ax to grind. I didn't. And don't.

Fort Lewis, near Tacoma, WA, south of Seattle, is an active military base. It is also the site of the Madigan Army Medical Center. Also in that area is the McChord Air Force Base, also active. Many flights depart for and return from Iraq, carrying troops and cargo. There is the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station on Whidbey Island, north of Seattle, in Puget Sound. Active. Also the Bangor Trident Submarine Base on Hood Canal, west of Seattle. Oh, yes. And the Bremerton Navy Yard, across Puget Sound from Seattle. Lots of historic naval ships in mothballs. Nothing much in the way of military bases, active or decommissioned, around here that could be used as a concentration camp. And I'm sorry, despite photographs I've seen of supposed concentrations camps, a school playground surrounded by a cyclone fence (no razor wire) obviously in a residential neighborhood just doesn't qualify.

Since governments, by their very nature, are open to corruption and are constantly trying to increase their power, it's up to us as citizens to make sure that nothing like that happens. GUEST seems to think that the storm troopers are already marching down the street to drag us all off, and others here also seem to think it's imminent. And nobody seems to be motivated enough to even try to suggest what anyone should do about it!   There seems to be a certain perverse satisfaction in just sitting there and wailing that "We are all doomed!" and taking pot-shots at those who are not willing to join in their melancholy funk.

Well, I'm not willing to simply lay down and whine till something like that happens (if, indeed, it ever does). That's why I am politically active.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:31 PM

Thank you LH for understanding what I was trying to get across in a somewhat clumsy fashion. Sacred cows exactly and as we know some are full of bull.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:38 PM

Correction ... I meant the Corvair, not the Corvette.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:31 PM

John Lennon ?!?!?!

Jeeeeeezuz ..... how did I miss that one in this thread. Yeah that 'Jesus statement' was a real earth shattering event in the timeline of humanity. At that time in my life I was more concerned about the escalating war in Vietnam, the cultural revolution in China, and GM's lie and deceit about the Corvette.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:23 PM

"There are some sacred cows on Mudcat too, and God help those who offend them."



You must be mistaken. Everyone knows that all Mudcatters are openminded and are always willing to consider that the other side has some valid point to make.

NOT

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:10 PM

I can't fathom, Ebbie, what you and Guest are arguing about in regards to John Lennon. Seems to me you don't have anything to disagree about. Lennon was merely making an observation that at that particular time the Beatles were more popular with young people than Jesus was. That was undoubtedly true. You'd have to be really stupid to think it wasn't. That people chose to take it as Lennon saying, "the Beatles are better than Jesus" was an unthinking kneejerk response on their part. Lennon had nothing to apologize for. Those people had nothing to get upset about.

It was just one more example of a hysterical response to something, driven by news media, that wasn't worth getting upset about in the first place.

And as Guest suggests, it was because Lennon had the nerve to say something truthful without regard to the risk, and in the process to cause a presumed public offence against a sacred cow. It's always dangerous to offend sacred cows.

There are some sacred cows on Mudcat too, and God help those who offend them. I will not choose to name them at this moment, however. ;-) I'm not John Lennon, and I don't need the flak.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM

"By the way, have you checked on the "decomissioned" military bases in your area? Drive out to the one nearest you sometime. I know there are armed guards at the ones around here."

Not all of them have armed guards ... the ones that don't, they are turning these bases into big box stores, industrial parks or in the case of Presidio they are selling off the officers homes as expensive condos, buildings into art centres and such ... the decommisioned bases that do have armed guards is because they have enough stockpiled ordnance to blow up a city the size of Cleveland ... you certainly don't want the neighbourhood kids or crack addicts getting into those joints.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:44 PM

"We didn't know", said the burgomeister ,"about the camp on the edge of town"
"It was Hitler and his crew that tore the German nation down."
"We saw the cattle cars, its true; maybe they carried a Jew or two"
"They woke us up as they rattled through, but what did you expect me to do?"

Chos: We didn't know at all, we didn't see a thing.
You can't hold us to blame, what could we do?
It was a terrible shame, but we can't bear the blame.
Oh, No, not us! We didn't know.

... From Tom Paxton's "We Didn't Know"

Whether the US government is or is not running the equivalent of concentration camps, it behoove the American citizen to PAY ATTENTION.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM

Rex 84 was the clencher, wasn't it? It usually is. 22 years ago the program was made glaringly public, yet people still deny the higher ups think about concentration camps. But there's Jack Brooks being told to shut the hell up when he asks Ollie North about it. I'm kind of surprised no one's said that the video is a photoshop job. When you folks were shown pictures of WTC survivors standing in the "burning holes" you said "photoshop," until it was pointed out that FEMA and NIST published the photos in their reports. You don't believe written reportage, you don't believe photos, so now you have to figure out how Jack Brooks was made to look like he was pissed off at the thought of the U.S. constitution being suspended by the military. Could be stop-motion animation. Or maybe some of Peter Jackson's early computer animation. The lip synching seems a little off. North's head seems to fly back and up when he's hit with the truth...does that seem believable? Looks like doctored film to me. Never happened. Conspiracy.

By the way, have you checked on the "decomissioned" military bases in your area? Drive out to the one nearest you sometime. I know there are armed guards at the ones around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:42 AM

True, Don. So ask your congressman/woman or senators what FEMA's money is spent on. Also ask about Rex 84. Let us know what you find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:37 AM

Some people believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and Little Green Men.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:57 PM

"We know from a Washington Post February 15, 2006 disclosure that the National Counterterrorism Center maintains a list of 325,000 people."

That number is an international one, Guest. However, no one knows how many Americans are on that list. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:52 PM

Point being ebbie he was right. But according to some on this thread it is impossible for anyone to be right about something unless there is irrefutable proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:45 PM

Guest, this is not an important thing to me. The Beatles had no impact on me whatsoever. You, however, are being disingenuous or perhaps deliberately misleading. You quote McCartney and Lennon AFTER the tempest. You never say one thing as to what was said.

Take a look at this (Note their quotation marks):

"Today in Odd History, The Evening Standard published a long, rambling interview with John Lennon in which he proclaimed that the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus." Although there was little reaction to his statement in England, Christians elsewhere embarked upon a massive campaign to destroy Beatles albums and other paraphenalia. Lennon apologized for the remark later, and the Archbishop of Boston admitted that he was probably right, but many still refused to forgive him."

What He Actually Said

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,ADEX
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:39 PM

From an article that mentions ADEX (referred to in the Wikipedia piece about Rex 84):

ADEX was the name of a FBI plan to identify theAmericans to roundup. The ADEX subversive list was maintained from 1967 to 1971. In Vietnam the ADEX approach was implemented in a program called Operation Phoenix. The number of South Vietnamese citizens executed in Operation Phoenix ranges between 21,000 and 70,000. The importance from ADEX is that we knowfrom our history that the people on the right side of issues like civil rights and protecting our democracy are put on FBI lists. We know from a Washington Post February 15, 2006 disclosure that the National Counterterrorism Center maintains a list of 325,000 people. The January 2005 Civilian Inmate Labor Program, an Army regulation related to rounding up Americans, is also available on www.freedomfromwar.org.

The shocking fact is there are already hundreds of prison camps in the United States. The vast majority of the prison camps are already staffed and surrounded by armed guards. These prison camps have railroad facilities, existing roads, and often an airport nearby. Where are they? Active and non-active military bases are ready to receive dissidents in part due to the January 2006 Halliburton contract enabling these facilities to quickly be "upgraded" to receive prisoners.

To fill the now empty prisons, FEMA only needs the president's signature on a proclamation, the attorney general's signature on a warrant, and a list of names attached to the warrant....

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=adex+list+names+rex+84&ei=UTF-8&fr=sfp&x=wrt&u=www.freedomfromwar.org/Are%2520You%2520With%2520Us%2520Or%2520Against%2520Us.pdf&w=adex+list+names+rex+84&d=WKfNx0VuN5VE&icp=1&.intl=us

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:20 PM

JOHN AND PAUL 1966
(during the 'Jesus statement' controversy)
JOHN: "I was just talking to a friend of mine, who also happens to be a reporter. I wasn't saying The Beatles were 'better' than God or Christianity. I could have said motor cars are more popular than Jesus. I just used the name Beatles because I can talk about us easier to use as an example, especially to a close friend. The point of what I was saying came from what I'd read and observed of Christianity. It just seemed to me to be shrinking. I wasn't saying it was bad. I was just saying that it seems to be shrinking and losing contact."

PAUL: "And we deplore the fact that it is, you know."

JOHN: "When the story of it came out in England, a few people wrote in the papers, 'He can have his own opinion,' and then it just vanished. It was very small. But by the time it got over here and was put into a kid's magazine, it just lost it's context and everyone started making their own versions."

Q: "As this has begun to die down, a great many ministers have agreed with you in the full context of what you said. Most of the oversimplification of what you said has come from the 'Bible Belt.'"

PAUL: "Yea, they seem to think that John is trying to get at them, but he isn't at all. It was just a straight comment on something, which may be right or may be wrong... but he's got to answer as he feels honestly. If they think for him to do that is wrong, then they don't believe in free speech. I thought everyone here did."

You see Ebbie your quotation marks don't actually mean that is what he said. It wasn't what he said. It is what you believe. Dwindling congregation figures bears out his opinion although at the time it wasn't based on irrefutable fact.

Sometimes people are so scared of the message they shoot the messenger.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:07 PM

"There was a very good programme on over the holidays in the UK - showing how the Beatles were villified in the US for John daring to suggest that christianity was becoming less of a force to be reckoned with to the younger generation. Footage of burning LP's and much stamping of feet was of course shown.

"He wasn't wrong at the time as history has undisputedly shown us. He had no hard evidence at the time. But that didn't make him wrong.He saw what he saw with both eyes open and had the open mindedness to look ahead." Guest

Talk about convolution. As I recall, the brouhaha came about when Lennon said that they (the Beatles) were "more popular than Jesus". What is the second paragraph about?

"I mean, look at that S.O.B. Ollie North flaunting the authority of an elected representative. Ollie North of death squad fame."

I doubt that you mean "flaunting", Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM

I am sure you're quite correct that Al Capone would not have wasted his valuable time here, 6. ;-) As you suggest, he had more pressing matters to deal with.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:05 PM

Sorry. I hadn't clicked that link when I found the youtube thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:56 PM

Yeah, that's one of my favorite pieces of video, Peace. I think the link I posted to it is working.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:42 PM

'"FEMA provides a new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis."-- General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division 1993'

I wonder why y'all don't ask your government just how much of FEMA's budget goes to disaster preparedness and how much to actual physical buildings in which the select will be sheltered from harm?

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:37 PM

'(From the transcript of the Iran-Contragate hearings, July 13, 1987.)'

It is on youtube and available with a Google of the thing I just posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:35 PM

Here, and hear. Google the following and give it a look and listen.


YouTube - Oliver North Questioned - Rex 84 Exposed During Iran Contra


I cannot get it to link direct.

Subject: RE: BS: Concentration camps in U.S. don't exist?
From: GUEST,Rex 84
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:25 PM

Damn. Even your beloved Wikipedia govt-mouthpiece shouts openly about Rex 84. Everythings just fine and dandy in the US of A, oh, except for those "subversives" that might need to be rounded up from time to time:

Rex 84, short for Readiness Exercise 1984, was a plan by the United States federal government to test their ability to detain large numbers of American citizens in case of massive civil unrest or national emergency. Exercises similar to Rex 84 happen periodically.[1] Plans for roundups of persons in the United States in times of crisis are constructed during periods of increased political repression such as the Palmer Raids and the McCarthy Era. For example, from 1967 to 1971 the FBI kept a list of persons to be rounded up as subversive, dubbed the "ADEX" list.[2]...

...Rex 84 was mentioned during the Iran-Contra Hearings in 1987, and subsequently reported on by the Miami Herald on July 5th, 1987. [5]A number of websites and alternative publications that span the political spectrum have hypothesized upon the basic material about Rex 84, and in many cases hyperbolized it into a form of urban legend or conspiracy theory. Nonetheless, the basic facts about Rex 84 and other contingency planning readiness exercises--and the potential threat they pose to civil liberties if fully implemented in a real operation--are taken seriously by scholars and civil liberties activists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84

lol. They'd SURE like to debunk this as an "urban legend," but they can't because of congressman Jack Brooks of Texas, bless him:

Few, if any noticed what transpired during the Iran-Contra investigation before with Oliver North on the stand and congress all on TV. During the questions asked of Oliver North, which seemed smoothe enough, until one day a Representative by the name of Jack Brooks asked the following question:

"Colonel North, in your work at the N.S.C., were you not assigned, at one time, to work on plans for the continuity of government in the event of a major disaster?"

North's Counsel, Brendan Sulivan shouted "Mr. Chairman?"

Senator Daniel Inouye: "I believe that question touches upon a highly sensitive and classified area so may I request that you not touch upon that?"

Representative Brooks shot back: "I was particularly concerned, Mr. Chairman, because I read in Miami papers, and several others, that there had been a plan developed, by that same agency, a contingency plan in the event of emergency, that would suspend the American Constitution.

"And," Brooks continued, "I was deeply concerned about it and wondered if that was the area in which he had worked. I believe that it was and I wanted to get his confirmation."

Senator Inouye: "May I most respectfully request that that matter not be touched upon, at this state. If we wish to get into this, I'm certain arrangements can be made for an executive session."

(From the transcript of the Iran-Contragate hearings, July 13, 1987.)

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37acc9007f81.htm

Video of the question and non-answer is at the link below. Fascinating...before the Brooks clip there's a thumbnail history of how FEMA has been changed from an "emergency" organization into a "repression of rights" organization:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4594384794934869193&q=jack+brooks+fema&hl=en

The "continuity of government" mentioned way back then is important because it was first implemented on September 11, 2001 by Dick Cheney, and we've been operating under it ever since (maybe...they won't say). But on 9-11, 200 bureaucrats were snatched up from here and there and flown to bunkers. Since then, this "shadow government" has been expanded in size (maybe...they won't say), and we're now ready for the suspension of the American Constitution that Jack Brooks was concerned about. I mean, look at that S.O.B. Ollie North flaunting the authority of an elected representative. Ollie North of death squad fame. So disgusting. He and Negroponte and their cohorts should be rotting in prison, not running things again.