What about a viola?

Subject: What about a viola?
From: Scoville
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 12:32 AM

Well, I almost made it through Christmas without any accumulating any more musical stuff, but then we went over to a friend's house for dinner and she gave me her viola.

I'll have to re-string it and set it up, but really, I know nothing about violas. I already play a bit of fiddle so the technical aspects of learning to play it don't worry me too much. I might try using the dulcimer tab I have for descant parts to get started. Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 01:34 AM

Suggestions about what?

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:06 AM

They burn longer than violins.

eric

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:15 AM

Yeah, but throw water on it and it shrinks. Voila, violin.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:45 AM

I think it was john cale [ a welsh lad from garnant near swansea ] who played the viola with the velvet underground.
ifor

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:06 AM

Indeed it was.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM

I prefer the viola over the fiddle.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 08:08 AM

Jeez, you ask this stuff when I'm not awake yet....
Viola is strung A, D, G, C. (high to low) This makes it a 5th lower than a violin. Sheet music is in Alto clef. Also called C clef. (Treble clef is G clef)

If you just play the same fingerings as a violin, you are a 5th lower. ie, Key of G turns into Key of F, etc. The back up players will love this. Not.

If you don't 'stretch' your fingering hand, your intonation will be flat but it's not that difficult to do. My hands are small and I can play a viola.

Slow airs, laments, etc are magnificent on a viola. Start with those.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM

What ? you mean ' dirges ' ?

eric

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 09:19 AM

maybe Ron Davies will answer....he has enthralled folks at the Getaway for years with wonderful backups and accompaniments on viola.

I also knew someone who played jazz & Bluegrass on viola. It can be a lovely instrument.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 10:12 AM

Or you can trade up to a 'cello.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:55 AM

"if you just play the same fingerings as a violin, you are a 5th lower. ie, Key of G turns into Key of F, etc. The back up players will love this."

This is not right. - a fifth lower means that the key of G becomes C, D becomes G, A becomes D and E becomes A.

So, all in all you have the same common folkie keys as on the violin with the addition of a lower C major and minor, and a lower E minor. To play as on a fiddle you just need to move the fingering up a string.

I prefer the viola for song accompaiment, not just because of the lower range, but because of the richer sound when playing in the same registers as a fiddle.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 12:29 PM

Dan...yes, sorreee! YOU are correct. I knew I wasn't awake yet.....doh.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:23 PM

That's whu I had Greg Boardman play the viola on my latest CD. It worked much better on Palace Grand than the fiddle did.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Scoville
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 10:19 PM

We already have a cello. I don't intend to mess with that. If I want to start playing really large, not-really-portable instruments again I'm going to sell a couple of the little ones and just get a bass. Which I don't think I'll be doing. Guitar is big enough.

I've decided that instruments are like cats--after the third one, additional ones cease to be additionally burdensome. Three cats, six cats, ten cats--it's just a Hell of a lot of cats and another one or two don't really make a difference. Ditto instruments--I've already played piano, hammered dulcimer, Appalachian dulcimer, guitar, and fiddle. And those are just the ones I remember. There might be others. So viola it is.

I have a sneaking suspicion this one will sound like shit once I get it strung up (or maybe I'm just biased against orange instruments; my fiddle is a nice, soulful, aged brown) but I'm going to give it a shot.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 10:40 PM

BillD is right. The way Ron Davies plays it, the viola seems to be the best stringed instrument for accompanying singing.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 03:19 AM

Viola; that's a pretty flower.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:34 AM

I prefer the viola over the fiddle

Me, I find it easier to play them separately :-)

Happy Boxing Day!

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: s&r
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 06:26 AM

You may find you need a slightly heavier bow if one didn't come with the instrument.

Stu

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:33 AM

Please don't missunderstand me, I like the fiddle, in its place, and I like the violin, in its place. My favorite piece of music was written for the violin; Beethoven's violin concerto in "D". Few pieces are as beautiful as Scottish Fantasy as played by Jasha Heifitz.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:06 PM

Viola does a nice sound.
One string different from fiddle, which meand if you are playing low it is easy, if you play high into sam range as violin you have to lean new fingerings (Not that difficult).
Have a play around. Enjoy!
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

SAME RANGE.....

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:50 PM

Hi.   I noticed this thread a little while ago and intended to post, but never had the chance til now.

I appreciate the kind words for violas in general (a bit of a switch from our usual role as "banjo" of the orchestra--I just figure everybody is jealous since we can read alto clef--though I'm losing the ability.) And I certainly appreciate the kind words for my viola accompaniment in "folk music"---(whatever that is---you were going to tell us, weren't you, Bill D?)

Anyway, it's certainly true that at least I find the viola to work well to accompany songs--with some caveats. At least with slow songs it seems to work and it's easier to create a low harmony on viola than on violin--since it's tuned a 5th lower. And when accompanying you don't want to just double the voice. It seems that a low harmony is less intrusive than a higher one. and what you want to do is weave a harmony or counter-melody around the singer, while not obscuring any of the singer's words. That means you can bring the viola part out at the end of a line, but in general you want to stay in the background. What I try to do is just be part of the musical texture.

Interestingly, I find that it's virtually essential to have guitar accompaniment also--that an accompanist must have a very strong sense of the rhythm and recognize chord changes immediately--both most easily provided by guitar. It's much harder to try to accompany a song without a rhythm instrument also present. I won't even try to accompany unless other instruments are also doing so.

Of course, you can play "double fiddle" pieces partnering with a violin--which is also great fun.

And I certainly second Kendall in both his choices of favorite pieces of music--the Bruch Scottish Fastasy is achingly beautiful and very evocative of (my picture) of Scotland. And Beethoven's violin concerto is wonderful--as is the Pastoral Symphony (and a host of his other pieces. I'm also very partial to the 7th Symphony--couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that it has one of his best melodies---start of the second movement-- -and he gives it to the violas--first!!! (A red-letter day for any violist).

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:51 PM

"Fantasy"

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: treewind
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM

Ron, what you say about needing a guitar for the rhythm is very true, and accords with the success we've had with cello and banjo.

But though it's true, it's not always true. There are some traditional songs that (depending on who's singing) don't really need a regular meter or rhythm, and then I find the cello alone for accompaniment works really well. We use in on at least one song that does have a regular pulse too, but flows in a way that just doesn't want a rhythm instrument.

Because of the compromises on size, a viola tends to be an accompaniment rather than a solo instrument. It doesn't have the required "stand out" tone, though there are some luthiers now making very powerful instruments and of course there are always a few star players championing the instrument and getting new stuff written for it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 12:19 PM

The cello for accompaniment by itself may work well in some instances--in fact the viola by itself might well work. But you'd have to work the arrangement out in advance. I'm talking about the the informal session where you really have no idea how the singer is going to do the song. So you can't guess--there may well be a ritard or accelerando where you don't expect them. If however the singer is also playing guitar (which often happens) you can be sensitive to the guitar--and the voice, of course--and tailor the accompaniment accordingly.

I certainly have heard some absolutely wonderful cello accompaniment on record--done, for instance, by Mudcat's Kathy Hickerson on Helen Schneyer's records.

But in an informal session, I wouldn't even try to accompany anybody singing a cappella unless he or she asked for it. As a singer, I know that I often like to be free to sing a song without being locked into anybody else's conception of it--and I know others feel the same.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: MMario
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 12:37 PM

well - I'd have to argue between Ron on the viola and a certain harp *grin*

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 12:49 PM

Mario--

If it's David Sheim, I'll be the first to admit that he's far more versatile than I am. We like to jam, especially with Lucy.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 08:03 PM

There have been a few '5 string specials' built which incorporate the full range of both Violin & Vioila.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:35 PM

G'day 'Troupe,

Most of the 5-stringers I've seen have been built for amplification. One old friend has, for years, played a Barcus-Berry 'bugged' 5-string fiddle ... and it can work well, in a quite location, without amplification ... but it was designed to play through the BB 'bug' and a whopping big amplifier.

Once you are in 'electronic fiddle' territory, it isn't far to such weight-saving heresies as 'chin-cellos' ... violins with the stringing and pickup set up to play through an octave divider ... and come out the speaker in cello range! (Much throwing up of the hands in horror ... but I've heard them work well, with players that understand what they are doing!)

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:19 AM

Tim Phillips in the UK makes lovely 5-string fiddles (smaller) and violas (larger) - as played by Jackie Oates until some low-life stole it (has she got it back, does anyone know?). I had a nice 5-string fiddle made from a long-bodied Dolling strad by Shay Allen - now in the much more capable hads of Tania Opland in Alaska. Always a compromise, but if you're wanting to both accompany songs and lead tunes (specially back-to-back) it saves carrying two instruments around, or doing a quick change. Low F#'s a bit of a stretch though!

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:26 AM

I recently bought a viola myself. It is indeed exceptionally suited to playing airs. A violin player should get good sound out it almost immediately. The big snag is learning to read music in the alto clef. Not rocket science, but surprisingly awkward to adjust to. It is a pity the viola has not been treated as a transposing instrument, like many wind instruments which greatly facilitates switching between them. If you want to hear viola in use as folk instrument, then Sean Keane, of the Chieftains, uses it on some tracks of his solo albums.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Scoville
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:18 PM

Well, I got the viola back from the shop on Friday and it actually sounds better than I expected considering it's obviously a low-end instrument. I didn't really have trouble with the fingering, either. Now I have to either get out my descant parts or figure out some new tunes that fit within its range (I'm not sure what is meant by "airs" but either we don't have many in our repertoires over here or we don't call them that).

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:54 PM

Airs are usually slow tunes played by one instrument alone (or with sparse accompaniment) where the player has the freedom to express the tune often varying the speed at appropriate moments.

I like a viola, me. I agree with what people are saying about it being a great instrument to accompany with. But you might be looking for alto parts rather than descant.

But don't violas attract similar jokes to the ones we apply to bodhrans, banjos, and (insert instrument name here)s?

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 10:01 PM

NO, because I doubt a viola will be played at breakneck speed, scratchy in tone, as is the higher-pitched fiddle by people who don't know better.

If a violin is a fiddle, BTW, what would that make a viola? A Vittle?

An alto fiddle?

~Susan

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 10:05 PM

PS, Hardi plays lead on his 5-string; he just is able to play things other than usual D, G, and A-key fiddle tunes as lead. Should be true of viola as well given the stringing/tuning similarity. Music not written originally for fiddle or whistle. Or take any fiddle tune's MIDI and use a notation program to move it into a key that fits the viola, and go for it. Chorded instruements can easily back YOU up in C, F, etc.

~Susan

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 03:27 AM

"But don't violas attract similar jokes to the ones we apply to bodhrans, banjos, and (insert instrument name here)s? "

Like .... A viola burns longer?...


Thanks to Bob Bolton: (slightly paraphrased)

1995 CD The White Rose Album, celebrating the great classic country dance dance music of the late Frank Bourke's The White Rose Orchestra, has a cover photo of 'Pixie' standing next to a full bodied 5-string fiddle. (www.pixieland.com.au/ )

Paul ("Pixie") Jenkins t/a Pixieland Music - a long-time accompanist to John Williamson.

He had quite a lot of airplay on ABV TV with a beautiful slow piece on that green 5 string - a piece that would be similar in style to that of the CD mentioned.

To quote Bob direct
"He may have later had a locally-made Australian Guscott 5-stringer (see www.guscott.cpm.au). Guscott Australia have a range of quiet* electric stringed instruments that include;

Violins 4 & 5 string
Chin-cello 4 & 5 string
Viola 4, 5, 6 & 7 string
Cello
Double bass
Electric Upright Bass

* Means they have solid body models that can be played "silently" while the player listens via headphones!

Guscott have been an energetic sponsor of the local (NSW - west of Sydney) Hawkesbury Fiddle Festival. See:

www.fiddlefestival.com"

Thanks Bob

I seem to remember that there is an Aussie maker (name forgotten) of 'real string instruments' - about the time Pixie was appearing - and one of his 'specials' (experimental instruments) was a green bodied 5 string.

Whether I have mentally welded separate memories into one, i am not sure, and the memory of Pixie playing on TV may be older than I thought.

ANYWAY!

what I really wanted to say is that you should try and catch this CD, I suspect it is similar to what I remember on TV. it is a good example of the use of the 5 string violin/violia.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:09 AM

Hey WYSIWIG, I can't hear the scratches on this. This is a sound sample of the last 43 cm. viola made by a contributor to the fiddle forum elsewhere.

http://guest.selimviolinlab.com/manfio/2__Viola_de_Luis.mp3

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: jonm
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM

I always thought the violin and viola were the same size, but the viola looked larger because violinists' heads were bigger.....

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:04 AM

Foolestroupe, you may be thinking of Graham Caldersmith; then again, you may be thinking of someone else. He used to make all sorts of specials but I think these days he concentrates on violins. Graham's instruments are superb.

Scoville, airs are not just slower, their phrasing can be a lot freer than most uptempo tunes. If you haven't already had this suggested to you, you might explore music for recorder consorts, which also deal with instruments having similar relationships,

Because I gather you play them all now you are probably immune to the jest I heard today from a viola player who commented that, in an orchestra, viola players are stuck between violinists who play fast and sharp and cellists who play slow and flat; violas have to try and strike a happy medium and get belted from both directions. Have fun with yours.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:15 AM

I just love the Violin , Viola and Cello played slowly and they add so much to the music provided they are played well :-) They just make me feel good and mellow and relaxed.

That doesn't mean that I don't like all other instruments, becuase I do.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:19 AM

Okay, airs are not sounding like the stuff I already know/the direction I tend to lean when looking for new tunes, but that's OK--the thing is playable now and I'll find a use for it. Must confess to being one of those fast (though I hope not too sharp) fiddle players. I think my dad still has some recorder music somewhere.

We pick on banjos, accordions, and autoharps around here. Well, not so much accordions--people who play those big piano accordions sometimes have biceps.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: GUEST,bardan
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:26 PM

It is a lovely instrument. If you're playing anything fast though you have to work a lot harder than on a fiddle. The jokes are mainly based on this fact being interpreted as proof that the players are slow etc. I love the viola though, and it does wonders for your vibrato when you pick up the fiddle again.
PS. Yes it can be a solo instrument!

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:35 PM

No, no--I don't plan to play anything fast on the viola. And certainly not with so many notes.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 07:22 PM

A little while ago I heard for the first time on the radio something about "The Lutherans's Guide to the Orchestra" - many years old now, and very clever remarks about all the various instruments and very witty religious/philosophical remarks about how similar many Christians are to certain instruments.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: Scoville
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:24 PM

Is this it?

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM

That sounds very much like what I heard parts of.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:41 PM

Viola relevant quote from above...

The viola section is no place for a Lutheran and here you have to take my word for it, because I know violists and they're okay until late at night, they like to build a fire in a vacant lot and drink red wine and roast a chicken on a clothes hanger and talk about going to Mexico with somebody named Rita. Violists have this dark, moody, gypsy streak, especially when they get older, and they realize that their instrument for some reason cannot be heard beyond the stage. You think you hear the violas, but it's really the second violins.

:-)

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:50 PM

Viola Bow - America's latest fitness craze

Brief extract:

"Developed over many years of practice by musician Michael McClelland, VIOLA BOW is a cross between the ancient martial combat arts and the modern Suzuki String teaching method. It is the only exercise program that strengthens muscles, builds endurance, and teaches ear training all at the same time!!! With only 2-1/2 to 5 hours of practice a day, you can harden your abdominals, build your biceps and triceps, and learn all the basic viola orchestral repertoire you'll need to know to play professionally in a regional orchestra! In addition, VIOLA BOW is a wonderfully sociable activity and is easy for even the youngest child or most mentally retarded or physically inept adult to learn!"

Subject: RE: What about a viola?
From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:37 PM

Yeah, I was reading along very happily until I got to the viola part and went, "Hey, wait a minute--that sounds like college . . . "