Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)

Subject: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:08 PM

He was executed at 3.00 GMT today

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:09 PM

See HERE

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:10 PM

This is MUSIC?????? See the BS thread please.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:15 PM

Well I suppose it's music to some people's ears!

Don't get so upset Sorcha the clones will move the thread. Personally I class most of the content in the music section as BS anyway (but good fun)

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:18 PM

I think OBITs always start out here, and then get moved if necessary.

I'm sure the world will be a better place without him, but one has to wonder what secrets he took with him. There may be some sighs of relief coming from Washington.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Richie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:29 PM

Hangman, hangman, hangman, slack your rope a while.
Think I see my brother, ridin' many a mile.
Well, brother, did you bring me silver? Brother, did you bring me gold
Or did you come to see me hangin' from the gallows poles?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:46 PM

His ghost will be back to bite us on the ass & any on all the deaths on our hands this'll be the one that'll come back to haunt US, this one along with his secrets.
This happened too fast their burying more than a body here & we're making damn sure that this is a family affair too.

Barry

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,gleaner
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:57 PM

"They're selling postcards of the hanging..." by Bob Dylan comes to mind. Internet profiteers and sensationalists will act similarly.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:58 PM

I will no revel in his death, but I will not mourn him, either.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:27 AM

A scrolling headline read: "Saddam's execution marks the end of a dark period of Iraq's history."

Whatever...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Janie
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:50 AM

What Peace said....

Janie

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:20 AM

Richie,

You have one too many hangmen there.

Hangman Hangman slacken the rope
Slacken it for a while
I think I see my own true love
Coming for many a mile

(that last line is a guess, but anyway, in the version I learned years ago that first line wouldn't scan). okay, so there's some music here now.

Any bets on how long it will take the gruesome photos to bleed into the American press? The media folks are all trying to figure out who will run them first--because the first one is liable to get clobbered, then no one will care about the rest. Geez. Meanwhile, anyone in the Middle East had better be watching their back now.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Bert
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:20 AM

I hope this will not be taken as a precedent. That would sure bode ill for OUR illustrious leader.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:46 AM

It is very rare that a murderous thug like Saddam is punished. Had Pol Pot, Augusto Pinochet, Idi Amin Dada and Bokassa ended up on the gallows, I might have been able to see it as justice.
Saddam was a mediocre brute made bigger by accidents of fate and the cirumstances of his times. Sadly, I fear the future will bring forth more of his kind.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:07 AM

From the article linked above, "UK Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett welcomed the fact that Saddam Hussein had been tried by an Iraqi court "for at least some of the appalling crimes he committed" and said "he has now been held to account".

I hope we will be able to apply the same standard of justice to Bush and Cheney.

...and lets not forget Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.

Kissinger would be a good start.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:20 AM

Yeah,he was a murdering brute and was kept in power for for many years with American and western arms,finance and military equipment. The people of Iraq were tormented by Saddam and they are still being tormented today by invasion,occupation ,the death squads and a collapsed economy.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:14 AM

It's a pity that he was executed when he was, as it effectively devalues the, still on-going trial, over the slaughter of Kurds, they must surely feel that, with Saddam's execution without the verdict in their case, that they have not received justice (does that make sense to people?).

As for the man himself - Well, I'll not grieve for him.

Walrus

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:38 AM

I'm with Peace.

eric

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:38 AM

GUEST,ifor - 30 Dec 06 - 02:20 AM

"Yeah,he was a murdering brute and was kept in power for for many years with American and western arms,finance and military equipment."

Apart from voicing this popular but highly inaccurate left-wing, anti-war, anti-Bush twaddle - Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

I would rather think not - because all evidence clearly points to others namely Russia, China and France.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:51 AM

I must admit I don't mourn him but my feelings against the death penalty are greater than any "he was an evil man" feelings.

Also, I do not recognise his trial and as such, even if I was in favour of capital punishment, could only consider this act as murder.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:15 AM

Twaddle, GUEST. I find my life curiously undiminished by the loss of this (in)human being!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:16 AM

Reply to Teribus,
You need to find out a lot more about how Saddam came to power and how he was maintained in power with the massive support of the USA and other states including those you have named.
When Saddam handed over to the UN some 11000 documents relating to arm sales and other military matters just prior to the 2003 invasion the US confiscated the bulk of the documents as they were highly embarassing to the US and big business interests.
You jeer at the anti war movement calling it "twaddle" but there were millions who marched to oppose the invasion of Iraq and the war has been a disaster for Iraq,the region and much more.Over 600000 Iraqis have been killed ,many more maimed.The place has been turned into a bloodbath.
Thousands of American soldiers have been maimed with the loss of limbs and head injuries and British soldiers have also been killed and wounded and psychologically damaged.All for Bush and his mate Blair and in pursuit of the drive to make the neo con vision a reality in the coming decades.It didn't work and the US is facing a catastrophic defeat.
Saddam has had to account for his brutal crimes against humanity Bush and Blair are still to be impeached.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:25 AM

I guess I may be in a minority here but I would be saddened at the premature loss of anyones life by violence. What kind of world do we live in? A world where mans inhumanity toward man is prevalent and we punish it with more inhumanity.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:29 AM

I don't find my life dimished either, JMc. That does not alter a belief that the death penalty is wrong for anyone or a belief that the trial was a farce.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:33 AM

In fact, JMc. The idea that your life being diminished or otherwise is a measure of whether someone should be put to death or not only leads me to wonder who the fuck you think you are.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:40 AM

It's so rare that an evil butcher actually gets his just desserts - usually they get away with it. It seems that the magnitude of the crimes committed are inversely proportional to the chances of receiving justice. If you kill one person there is a fair chance of, at least, spending a considerable amount of time in prison, or of being executed (depends on where in the world you commit the crime). Kill thousands, or 'better' yet, millions and there's a pretty good chance of dying of natural causes - in your own bed (or possibly hospital?) if you're Pinochet or a comfortable cell in the Hague if you're Milosevic.

Unfortunately, I suspect that Saddam's death has very little to do with justice (although I believe that he richly deserved to die). I think that he was swiftly despatched because he knew too much and because he was a puppet of external forces who had outlived his usefulness.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:44 AM

I agree with both Peace and, until the last post, Guest.

I cannot under any circumstances condone the death penalty for anyone, no matter what they've done. What gives us the right to kill any more than them? But I'm not sad he's no longer in this world

LoveLynne

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: JennyO
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:46 AM

GUEST,Shimrod, I agree. Unfortunately we will probably never know because they are covering their tracks carefully.

As for the anonymous GUEST who said "...who the fuck you think you are." - that's the best laugh I've had all day!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:50 AM

Sorry Jeeny O. Perhaps you can explain to me why someone finding their life diminished or otherwise should be considered to be a measure of approval or dissapproval for the death penalty?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:57 AM

in a former position i interview hundreds of refugees from iraq - some of whom were torture survivors.

I thought I was against the death penalty. But I have realised I'm not any more, because I think Saddam Hussein should die. He is responsible for the torture, sexual degradation, mutilation, pain, humiliation and extermination of tens of thousands of people. Those who have survived will not be able to relax until he's gone - because he is so wiley, so powerful that if he were to remain alive in captivity, he would surely bribe or influence his way to an escape. I'm glad he's gone.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 AM

George Galloway will be Inconsolable.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: JennyO
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:09 AM

Because of this, GUEST:

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." -- John Donne

Bearing this in mind, I think many of us are torn when it comes to brutes like Saddam Hussein, hence Jeremiah McCaw's comment that he felt "curiously undiminished". That would be my guess as to what he meant.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:12 AM

OK, you read it differently to me, Jenny O.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:46 AM

I know I'm probably out of step with the rest of humanity here but I am SORRY he was executed!

My reason? Apart from my own feelings that execution is murder and no person/government/court has that right, I think he should have been made to suffer for his natural span. The old expression of 'hanging is too good for him' applies here.

Secondly he will be seen as a martyr by some (sunnis for example) rather than a murderer etc.

Finally, and probably the most important of all, reprisals will be terrible. I doubt there will ever be peace on this part of the planet anyway, but the next period of its history will be dreadful indeed.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:59 AM

They showed an excerpt from the TV broadcast of the execution this morning on the BBC. Saddam was calm and composed in a dark suit and his executioners wore skimasks. Could they not in the whole of Iraq have found half a dozen men with the balls to show their faces while they executed another human being? As far as it being an official execution sanctioned by the state, the executioners wore bomber jackets and cheap trousers instead of uniforms. The overall impression was that of a schoolmaster being executed by cowardly minicab drivers.

A sad, tawdry, sordid spectacle. The whole thing gave Saddam an air of dignity that he never possessed or deserved in life.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:23 AM

Zany Mouse, you're not out of step with the rest of humanity, though you may be out of step with Americans.

For most of humanity, I suspect, the farcical trial - with defence lawyers being assassinated, the judge replaced if he didn't appear prejudiced enough, the defendants dragged out of court if they tried to shout their own defence, and into court if they decided to boycott the court - did no credit to the 'Iraqi' government.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:00 AM

'hanging is too good for him' applies here.

Secondly he will be seen as a martyr (Zany Mouse)

That is in a nutshell what I consider one often read wrong argument in this case. If on the one hand life imprisonment is seen as the worse punishment (In comparison to a quick death) why then should he only become a martyr when killed quickly?

Of course he would perceived being a martyr even with life imprisonment. My fantasy sees him in hunger strike against (real or imagined or, most likely, for propaganda purposes invented) mistreatment. Hugh demonstrations would plead for his release (in particulr, when he gets visibly older). People would be abducted with the demand of his release in exchange. The videos of the decapitations would be available in the net. Human Rights Watch would write articles about how he suffers (being propaganda fed by followers). Etc.

I consider the martyr argument as wrong, also from our experience. The German Neonazis rallied for the freedom of Hess who served a life sentence. The already dead Nazi leaders were mostly forgotten but a campaign for the release of a more than 90 year old men after decades of solitary confinement made some impression. Even his death had some propaganda value as "murder by the state". Who do you guess gets fresh flowers on his grave at his birthday? Hess, of course.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM

Saddam had to die. It's good he's gone. I've said for months that when he was captured I would have immediately turned him over to the Kurds. Not only was he a vicious tyrant but as long as he was alive he was the potential focus of a Baathist coup. NB, Baathist, not Sunni. There is a big difference. The important thing is to recognize the stupidity and unhelpfulness of attitudes like that of Teribus, who for months lumped all Sunnis together with Saddam, even going so far at one point as to claim that all Iraqi Sunnis were the equivalent of hard-core Nazis in 1945.

By far more important than Saddam's death is what I've been saying for over a year--Iraqi Sunnis need to know 1) they can trust Iraqi police and 2) they will be guaranteed more oil income than would accrue to them from "Sunni" areas of Iraq.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

Chris B, it has always been the case that the executioners face is masked.

My response to Ifor:

"You need to find out a lot more about how Saddam came to power and how he was maintained in power with the massive support of the USA and other states including those you have named."

Again you trot out this baseless rhetoric that is completely untrue. Saddam Hussein came to power in 1979 as a result of an internal Ba'athist coup. The massive support given by the USA must have been particularly unique for that particular period in time, seeing as the US ceased to have any diplomatic links with Iraq in 1967 as a result of the "six day war".

"When Saddam handed over to the UN some 11000 documents relating to arm sales and other military matters just prior to the 2003 invasion the US confiscated the bulk of the documents as they were highly embarassing to the US and big business interests."

Sorry to point out the obvious Ifor but you did say that Iraq handed over documents to the UN didn't you? So they then must have read the whole thing in it's unabridged version. What was blanked out did not represent "the bulk" of anything, in fact most of it was leaked to the press anyway.

"You jeer at the anti war movement calling it "twaddle" but there were millions who marched to oppose the invasion of Iraq and the war has been a disaster for Iraq,the region and much more."

Again pointing out the obvious Ifor, while, "....there were millions who marched to oppose the invasion of Iraq" There were many more millions who didn't.

"Over 600000 Iraqis have been killed"

This figure is based on absolutely nothing, which seems to be a theme of most of your arguements - baseless unfounded crap - If you are going to attempt to argue a point using figures at least make some attempt to get them roughly correct.

"Bush and Blair are still to be impeached."

By whom and for what? Will the charges be laid based on hard and fast evidence - or your version - pure fabrication.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:10 AM

"...every man's death diminishes me..."

That includes the poor homeless guy who froze to death, Saddam Hussein, John Lennon, the most recent casualty in Afghanistan, my friend Jack's mother (who died quietly, surrounded by her family, on December 28), and everyone else.

The bell does NOT toll only for the executed, or the victims of AIDS, or those killed in war.

"Every" means "Every."

I need not mourn his passing, but "every man's death diminishes me."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:17 AM

"I didn't get an invitation to the funeral, but I sent a letter of approval." (Mark Twain)

Ok, question. Saddam has lost his life by execution. Am I better off?
What if he had been treated like Rudolph Hess and died in prison? Would I be better off?

Killing him freed him. Imagine going from supreme ruler with the authority to decide who lives and who dies to nothing but a prisoner with no power of any kind. Wouldn't that be more punishment? It sure as hell would for me!

Beware of the person in whom the need to punish is strong.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:25 AM

To a dispassionate extra-terrestrial observer the human race must appear very strange. Every so often there appears in their midst a cruel monster who murders thousands, occasionally millions, of them. then, when it appears that the monster is about to be brought to justice, thousands of humans leap to the monster's defence! They are very good at finding reasons for excusing the monster or letting him off the hook:

- Other powerful humans invoke geopolitical expediency for defending the brute. Often, it turns out, the monster could not have committed his crimes without their help and support in the first place.

- Others appear to endorse the concept of a 'strong leader'; I recall that many Russians wept genuine tears of grief on hearing of Stalin's death, even though he may have tortured and imprisoned them and even slaughtered members of their families.

- Others piously intone that "the death penalty is wrong" and even suggest that we should 'forgive' the monster for his crimes. I note, though, that they seldom ask the surviving victims of the monster's cruelty what they think ...

I think that our hypothetical observer would speculate that one of these monsters would eventually succeed in wiping out all of the human race and that that race had an inbuilt flaw, a blindness towards such large scale criminality and barbarity, which would eventually make such an outcome inevitable.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:30 AM

Kendall--you are better off with Saddam dead. Now there is no chance for any kind of Baathist coup with the aim of putting him back into power. Without him, the real concerns of Sunnis can be addressed--and just maybe, the carnage on Iraqi streets can lessen--which would lessen the success of terrorism--the terrorism sparked by Bush's criminally stupid invasion.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 09:31 AM

Lots of times I wish I was an extraterrestrial observer...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM

What Peace said and what Jenny O said and what JTT said and what Zany Mouse said and what Shimrod said and what Rapaire said and what Wolfgang said and what Ron Davis said...

in other words I'm really conflicted about this.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:14 AM

Reply to Teribus

To go back to the thousands of Iraqi documents handed over to the UN but confiscated by the US .They were grabbed within hours of being delivered and their contents are still not publicly known.
We do know however that the US was an important and major backer of Saddam throughout those long years when he was terrorising the Iraqi people.

It is also true that the US, through the CIA, worked to bring the Baathists to power an act which began the long nightmare for the Iraqi people.For an informed view of the links between the US and Saddam read Robert Fisk's article in todays Independent newspaper.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM

I dunno .... now that has all been done .... the world still is not peaceful, or just ... but he still had to pay the piper I guess.

What does come to my mind and I find repulsive (over all this event in the last few hours) is the post from Guest, gleaner ....

"They're selling postcards of the hanging..." by Bob Dylan comes to mind. Internet profiteers and sensationalists will act similarly."

unfortunately this is so true.

biLL

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM

And then what Kendall said...

Oddly enough the British didn't execute Napoleon when they had him in custody. They sent him off to exile under heavy guard to the Isle of St. Helena in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Maybe it would have been better to have exiled Saddam to Antarctica, but then there would be those cute penguins to worry about.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:16 AM

I agree with you, Georgiansilver, and you, Rapaire. I don't think killing him will remedy anything.

Whether the figure of how many Iraqis have died is substantiated or not, we DO know that more American soldiers have now died in Iraq than people were killed in 9-11.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

Some people will make him a martyr now.

I agree he was an evil man but so is bush and blair they to are evil, because look at the people the americans prosecuted and tortured, the idians, the blacks, the jews... etc. the lists goes on but mind you so does every other country I mean all you need to do is look at the history of countries.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:44 AM

Tom ... And that's is why the execution of Saddam doesn't make the world a better place to live. His execution will in all probability just give birth to a few more despots.

biLL

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:47 AM

Ps.
I'm sorry for upesetting some people.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

I can neither mourn nor exult .....but the phrase that popped into my head was:

"Even as Ye sow, so shall Ye reap."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Cruz
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:10 PM

Good point Chris B

"The whole thing gave Saddam an air of dignity that he never possessed or deserved in life."


I would have to agree with the executioners wearing masks was cowardly. The judges and lawyers who risked their life did not hide behind masks.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:14 PM

And we did get pictures. I was physically ill. What a farcial sham. Postcards will be next.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:37 PM

Ah, that we should all live by the poet's creed. It's amazing how you can take some mediocre lyrics and add some well written and performed music and they don't sound half bad. Or you can take great lyrics and dress up some ordinary music and that doesn't sound half bad either. Well, Donne's words make for fine poetry and it expresses a fine and noble "general" sentiment with which most of us (myself included) concur.

However, if you shoot an intruder who is about to do you or your family harm, how does that diminish you? I'd say that enhances your life just a little, wouldn't you? Remember "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead"? Which old witch? The Wicked Witch! Well, Ding Dong the Butcher of Baghdad is dead too!

If you define death as an absolute evil, then no one can argue with you, by your definition. But if your honest, you would have to admit that there are necessary evils.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM

Many people I have met do not really understand the meaning of forgive. It does NOT mean that you condone what the bastard did, it only means that you will not allow them to influence the rest of your life. To carry a grudge to the gave only hurts yourself.
Ron, I still don't see what difference it makes to me which way he went. I don't see execution as the best way to deal with these rats. Rudolph Hess lived as a nothing, from Deputy Fuehrer to a nobody who died after a long life, in prison.Saddam died instantly. Who suffered the most?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:59 PM

I don't quite agree with your definition of "forgive" kendall. I do agree the you can forgive without condoning the act or behavior. And yes, forgiveness will set the forgiver free but it also sets the forgiven free. I think of Jean Paul Jean in "les Mesirables" and what a picture of grace that it gives us. If the one who obtains mercy, that is to say, forgivence, learns the same, then the moral mission of forgivence is complete. If he doesn't learn, he is still free. Did Barabbas go right?

I'm reminded of the condemned man who stood before his judge and pleaded for mercy. The judge said "You don't deserve mercy!" to which the condemned man answered "Sir, if I deserved it, it would not be mercy."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM

Tom, there are few (if any) Indians being tortured in the US at this moment. For one thing, they have too much casino money....

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM

If someone does me dirt and moves on,then I forgive him/her, he/she neither knows or cares. It's about me, not them. I can choose to stew in my own resentment but it won't do either of us any good.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM

You are completely right Kendall. I like the Bhuddist attitude, which is that mean and spiteful treatment of others can only damage yourself. I get angry for sure about bastards like Saddam and Pinochet. I can also see them for the pathetic worms, which they are. The worst thing that could happen to me, is that I could become like them. That is one reason I will never condone pulling a helpless person out of a cell and putting them to death.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Genie (Wha hoppen ma cookie?)
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:38 PM

Shimrod took the words out of my mouth: "Unfortunately, I suspect that Saddam's death has very little to do with justice (although I believe that he richly deserved to die).   I think that he was swiftly dispatched because he knew too much and because he was a puppet of external forces who had outlived his usefulness."

There have been reports that Saddam was offering to spill the beans on his connections to GHW Bush et al.   Can't have that, can we?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:45 PM

This is off topic but since it was mentioned:

" 'A National Disgrace'
Half a millennium after Columbus misnamed them, American Indians are the poorest people in the United States.

The country's 2.1 million Indians, about 400,000 of whom live on reservations, have the highest rates of poverty, unemployment and disease of any ethnic group in America. That might surprise Americans who have consumed countless cheery feature stories about Indians making big bucks on casino gambling. Some tribes -- like the Mashantucket Pequots of Connecticut, who own Foxwoods, the country's largest casino -- have indeed gotten very rich. But less than a quarter of America's 557 Indian tribes own casinos, and only 48 tribes earn more than $10 million a year on gaming. Far more typical than Foxwoods is Prairie Wind, the casino on the Pine Ridge reservation -- a gambling hall made of three trailers, located far from any urban market, earning barely $1 million a year for the Oglala Sioux."

http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/indian.htm


-snip-
Although this was Washington Post article was written in Feb 1997, I doubt if things has changed that much in 10 years...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:06 PM

In the UK the news coverage on the execution has included somewhere at least in each report that saddam was supplied weapons by the West and reports have also been clear to point out he did not have wmds, he did not have anything to do with 9/11, he did not have connection with al quaedi (?). The reports have not underplayed the attrocities he was connected to but neither have they sugar coated the truth.

I agree with the poster who remarked on the dignity he showed, and the reference to the 'mini cab' drivers would normally have raised a chuckle. Very astute.

One side effect of todays debacle will be to further lower the worlds opinion of the US. If that is possible.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:28 PM

JennyO understood the reference (thank you); I would have thought any reasonably educated person would have.

As for who I think I am - I think I'm just one person with one opinion. Oh, and one not afraid to have my name associated with the words I speak, "Guest".

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:29 PM

It makes no difference if we feel that Saddam's death "diminishes me". Sorry, John Donne doesn't fit here.

What matters is if the Shiite government now feels it is freer to make concessions to Sunnis--like more meaningful action in purging Shiite militias from the police---an absolutely essential step in ending violence in Iraq.

Maybe the government will feel freer to to do this, maybe not. But clearly the danger of any coup to re-install Saddam is now gone. So the government should in fact do it. I would think that even Sadr's people should now feel less threatened than before.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:34 PM

Azizi:

There was a panel from different tribes formed some time ago top meet and discuss some common issues, and the panel members were representative of all the major tribal groups. Some WASP wanted them to speak to the question of what they preferred to be called. Every single one said they preferred to be called by their tribal names (Hopis, Cherokee, etc.) and if that were not known, to be called "Indians" which is how they refer to their own when the tribe is not known. Every single one said the last thing they wanted ot be called was indigenous.

To wrap up the discussion, one of the elders said, "Let us just be grateful that Columbus did not think he had arrived at the Virgin Islands."

A

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:55 PM

Thanks, Amos. That made me smile and I needed that.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:00 PM

I was talking about America's past.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

Great post Amos! It may also be pointed out that obviously the US government has done precious little to help the American Indians and will continue to not help the American Indians. And of course, historically (is that one "l" or two Ron?) they sought to annihilate and dispossess them. So it now remains: what are the "have" Indians doing to help their own "have-not" Indians??

"What matters is if the Shiite government now feels it is freer to make concessions to Sunnis--like more meaningful action in purging Shiite militias from the police---an absolutely essential step in ending violence in Iraq." I'm, I'm feeling faint! I,I agree with you Ron! I'd better re-read that. Nope. It's true. I agree with you!

Aside from personal opinion and strong emotions there are certain inevitabilities and eventuations that happen in communities. See my little thread "When Big Things Move...". There will always be people hurt and trampled and rights violated in big complex organisms. "Fearless Leader" may become the focal point of hatred or praise through no fault of her/his own or they may wholely deserve the prevailing popular sentiment but one thing is certain: they are never going to please everyone and the spectrum of that sentiment is from extreem to extreem. A wise leader tries to keep the extreems to a minimum and maximize the center of the "bell". Such is politics.

But the populace can also be manipulated by other entities such as the press and other media, foreign interests, external enemies, etc. It's quite a game. I would guess that 99% of the world's population would like to live a quiet and peacable life. I know I would. Infact, I would call that "table stakes". Some ante. And we're in the game whether we like it or not.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:17 PM

Hey Slag, you can spell "historically" any way you want. Somehow, I think you will anyway.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:20 PM

It's a pittieable/pitiabil/pityabil/sorry person who can only find one way to spell a word.

How the heck are you Ron?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:23 PM

I iz felin grate.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:26 PM

I could point out that those who taught the Americans how to deal with Indians, Africans, and others were English, Spanish, French, German, Dutch...but I won't. There were some awfully good teachers, though.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:31 PM

And Peece--hau r yu?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

texting now

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

As others have pointed out the majority of NDNs live well below the poverty line. And, anyone who works at their casinos is not making much more than minimum wage; I know, my son-in-law works at Foxwoods.

what are the "have" Indians doing to help their own "have-not" Indians??

Why should the onus be on them anymore than the rest of society to help each other? Should we ask what are Pilgrims doing to help their own? etc.? Lots of NDNs find not much in common with one another just as a white liberal may not find much in common with a white(is there any other kind?) skinhead. Should they be called to task for what they might be doing to "help their own" if "their own" means skin colour or ethnicity? Not, IMO.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:11 PM

On the Shoshone-Bannock Reservation just north of where I live there is a 40% unemployment rate. And white "entrepeneurs" come in and try to take advantage of them because of this -- stuff like putting in highly polluting industries and getting them to waive cleanup (as happened, and the Tribal Business Council reportedly replied "We might be Indians, but we're not dumb Indians!").

I have long failed to understand why some people, of whatever ancestry, feel that they are superior to others because of their religion, skin color, or whatever.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM

I have no real feelings about the politics of all this. Saddam Hussein was a person who the world can probably do without but he isn't alone in that. Whether he should have died or not, whether he will be a martyr or not, whether there will be reprisals or not, the question remains: What gives us the right to kill another human being?

There are lots of people who possibly 'deserve' death but to quote JRR Tolkein in "Lord of the Rings"
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement."

I know that I personally do not want the death of ANY other human being on my conscience. For me to condone that death makes me just one little step towards what he was

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: 282RA
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM

Well, well, well...Saddam is dead.

Yippee. Hooray.

3000 American dead along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis--and all to execute this cat. I sure hope it was worth to you, America, because it sure didn't seem to me like it was worth the bother.

I don't know about you (and don't care to so don't bother responding) but I don't feel any safer. I don't think the world is really any better off unless Saddam's death can reverse the global warming trend, then I'll rethink my position. I don't think terrorism was dealt a blow at all. I would, however, like to know why Saddam--who had nothing to do with 9-11--is dead and Osama bin-Laden--who masterminded 9-11--is still alive and still free and Bush himself says he really doesn't think much about him anymore.

Really sounds to me like retarded Georgie got the wrong guy once again. Has Bush done ONE thing right since he took office? Really, I would to know just ONE thing he improved as president instead of botched and screwed up. It's pretty fucking sad when you eliminate this ruthless tyrant and somehow manage to make the lives of his former-subjects far worse than they ever were while he ruled.

I wonder, though, did the American military-industrial complex get paid back for all the weapons and gases they gave Saddam to kill people with? Or did he pay it back and so he was now a liabilty? Or did he refuse to pay them back so they wanted to show all the dictators in the world vying for US support that we better get paid back or else?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM

kat, that was my point! The US Government is all blow and no go where Indians are concerned. If we as a nation "owe" any one group, it's the American Indians. In lieu of our honest, fair-dealing Uncle Sam, how are the successful Indians doing in helping their brothers?

Of course the sole burden shouldn't be on their shoulders---BUT IT IS! So, are they going to prove the US government's actons were right by treating their own the same way? Let's hope not. I voted favorably for Indian Casinos in my state and in my area and I thouhgt, "At last, a way to restore some equity, self-respect and dignity" even though many pitfalls were apparent. It really saddens me when I hear about some small "tribe" of fifteen or twenty people voting to oust other members (read: Family members) for various reasons (such as, they don't want to share the wealth) and then for a per centage sell out the entire operation of the casino to a Nevada firm (another "Family"?) and then do nothing but play "Fat Cat" all the long day. It ain't right. Nor is the impact when you have to spell it out.

This is pretty far afield from the thread topic so just let me say this to any semi-literate who want to debate this: start another thread. Full-Literates welcome too!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Richie
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

I think we should have made Saddam live with the Oglala indians in South Dakota.

Richie

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: growler
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

Wouldn't it be wonderful, if we could have a proper investigation of the David Kelly affair and the half trues that led to the invasion of Iraq. If it were found that Blair was guilty, would we hang him. I like to think so

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

"let me say this to any semi-literate who want to debate this: start another thread. Full-Literates welcome too!"

HEY. My parents were married!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:33 PM

Hang ALL the war criminals!

Peter

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:35 PM

The real pain that Saddam felt was not the hangman's noose. It was arriving at the place where the legendary virgins are and then realizing that he did not have any Viagra with him.

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:10 PM

To fdrag a helpless person from a jail cell and kill him is not too different from what he did. In any case, it's not justice, it's revenge. "Vengence is mine" sayith the Lord.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:32 PM

growler - 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

"Wouldn't it be wonderful, if we could have a proper investigation of the David Kelly affair and the half trues that led to the invasion of Iraq. If it were found that Blair was guilty, would we hang him. I like to think so"

Growler - not to point out the obvious, but there have been THREE independent inquiries, one specifically about the death of David Kelly. None of these inquiries has led to any conclusion that you would find acceptable. Now I am sorry, old son but the rules demanded by such inquiries are fairly strict and require some degree of factual evidence before any conclusion and judgement are reached. So far there has been no evidence produced that any "half truths" or lies that were told.

Now Growler, if you dispute this point of mine you damn well come with come with some fact to back up your contentions. I don't think that you will because the weight of fact lies behind my arguement.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Genie (Wha hoppen ma cookie?)
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:44 PM

What you said, 282RA!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:08 PM

Ritchie, why should the Ogalala suffer?

Rabbi-Sol: LOL!!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM

Rapaire.
"...I could point out that those who taught the Americans how to deal with Indians, Africans, and others were English, Spanish, French, German, Dutch...but I won't. There were some awfully good teachers, though... "

It isn't the teaching that counts - It's how the former student applies the lessons learned.

W

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:22 PM

"the place where the legendary virgins are and then realizing that he did not have any Viagra with him."

That's not paradise Sol, that's the other place.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Richie
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:16 AM

Katlaughing,

Maybe you don't really know the deplorable conditions and dire poverty which the Oglala indians live.

Might as well make Saddam suffer for his sins.

Richie

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:24 AM

Well, duh, bobad!!! Yuk Yuk! Good shot Sol!

re: our teachers, We ARE the Dutch, the Germans, the etc. The English were very adept at placing the Dutch, the Germans, etc. between them and the Indians in the early days of this country. The accepted norm of attitude and sensibilities was quite different than they are today. Enlightenment continues and our 20-20 hindsight just gets better and better with each new trend. We, today are as much a product of our culture as our ancestors were of theirs. Out great grandchildren will tsk, tsk, us from their lofty point of view and wonder how we could ever have thought such thoughts or done such things!

I met Lame Deer, A Chief of the Ogalala in the mid '70s. He was a very charming and learned man. Indeed, why would you inflict Saddam on the Ogalala?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:34 AM

Ritchie, I am well aware of the conditions, having had neighbours from there and going to sweats conducted by one of their well-known healers, as well as been good friends with an Ogalala who started an art school for Ogalala children on the Rosebud. I don't think their conditions mean they should have to have it any worse with that filth (Saddam) living there, too.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 07:11 AM

There are plenty of "brown sandwiches" to go around.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Sand Man
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 09:01 AM

The tendecy to forget is seen in many of the replies in this thread.
Saddam was described by former British Prime Minister Ted Heath as a "gentleman", Ted was a frequent visitor to Iraq and believede that Saddam had "been very good for Iraq", and another visitor was Rumsfeld a supporter of Iraq in the war against Iran, Rumsfeld did well for his US masters courting the dictator in his war against the enemy of the US.

Who encouraged the invasion of Iran? Who supplied Saddam with the components for the chemical weapons with which he drenched Iran and the Kurds? and who ensured that the charges he faced in his trial forbade the west`s culpability?.

Perhaps it is fitting that Bush went to bed early in Texas on Friday night, with explicit directions that he was not to be diturbed and leaving a prepared statement on Saddam`s execution.
The west helped create this monster, yet as justice was finally seen to be done, Bush pulled the covers over his head. Meanwhile, Blair is on holiday at a pop star`s luxury beach resort.

There is no doubt that the execution of Saddam marks the end of a dark period of Iraqi history, a dark period of Iraqi history is continuning. Sddam left misery in his wakein Iraq, but the US and the British are continuing to add to this terrible toll, and while Saddam has lost, and paid the ultimate price with his life, his captors certainly have won nothing yet.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM

I dreamed they were about to show the hanging on TV, tuning in at the point of the hyped announcements-- but the control room was screwed up so instead of a picture from Iraq it was a closeup of an opening sharks' mouth coming at me (I was seeing it from Saddam's eyes). Of course, I woke myself up before it got to me!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:22 AM

I have given myself a few days to think about it before posting. I am not sure why but I am genuinely upset over Saddam's death and could not care less about Ford's.

He died with a certain dignity when I guess I had hoped for a little snivelling and begging for mercy. At any rate, something is very wrong about this entire affair and I can't yet put my finger on it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Lily
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:31 AM

Sinsull, did you read the sand man`s post, he gets straight to the truth, and there is nothing hidden if anyone cares to look back at America and Britains role in creating a monster.
The United States should hang it`s head in shame and apologise to the Kurds for supplying Sddam Hussein with the nerve gas.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

I don't know how Blair and Bush can sleep at night.
I have no time for Saddam Hussein and his henchmen or the terrorists. They are pure evil.

However, I cannot get over what Blair & Bush have done to Iraq as a country. So many innocent people killed and their country left ruined.
The damage is done and I feel really sorry for all the poor "innocent" people who through no fault of their own are left to bear the cross.

I do hope for everybody's sake that Iraq can be sorted out sooner than later. Its no good Bush and Blair turning their backs on these people, they have a big debt to pay.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM

A quote from reporter Robert Fisk's piece in today's Independent :

The Iraqis had used, for the first time, a combination - the nerve gas would paralyse their bodies ... the mustard gas would drown them in their own lungs. That's why they spat blood."

At the time, the Iranians claimed that this terrible cocktail had been given to Saddam by the US. Washington denied this. But the Iranians were right. The lengthy negotiations which led to America's complicity in this atrocity remain secret - Donald Rumsfeld was one of President Ronald Reagan's point-men at this period - although Saddam undoubtedly knew every detail. But a largely unreported document, "United States Chemical and Biological Warfare-related Dual-use exports to Iraq and their possible impact on the Health Consequences of the Persian Gulf War", stated that prior to 1985 and afterwards, US companies had sent government-approved shipments of biological agents to Iraq. These included Bacillus anthracis, which produces anthrax, andEscherichia coli (E. coli). That Senate report concluded that: "The United States provided the Government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-systems programs, including ... chemical warfare agent production facility plant and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM

and he ends the article with this:

"The whole truth died with Saddam Hussein in the Baghdad execution chamber yesterday. Many in Washington and London must have sighed with relief that the old man had been silenced for ever."

Thats the only reason I am saddened by the death of Saddam.

If he had been tried for the deaths of the Kurds, the U.S. would have been implicated.

The manufacture, sale and trade of weapons has driven the destruction of Iraq but those who have supplied the means, walk away free with their pockets jingling.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Lily
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 02:56 PM

Thank you JTT for posting that Robert Fisk article, reading it made me very angry, how could Bush and his cohorts hold themselves up as paragons of virtue when their countrymen are steeped in the blood of the innocent.
It is true that the victor writes the history, do the people of the USA not feel ashamed that the Kurds and Iranis were murdered by the hideous weapons supplied to Hussein by their country, the USA and to a lesser extent the British governments should be tried as war criminals.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:11 PM

(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and
      contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or
      Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices
      as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3
      May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol,
      willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: growler
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:19 PM

Teribus
Thanks for your comments, but I worked for the Home Office for 26 years. Enough said

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:21 PM

The death of Saddam changes nothing.

The American death toll now stands at 3,000 and is climbing.

Bloodiest month for American troops in Iraq in over two years.

And for some reason, no one in the world can tell us how many Iraqis have died.

The civil war in Iraq is raging.

Sleep well, Bush and Blair.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM

Anyone who thinks this solves anything never read "Julius Caesar."

~D

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:27 PM

Dear Mr. Growler, you may have worked at the Home Office for 26 years but obviously you have never studied logic and debate. The fallacy you commit it the appeal to authority. In what capacity did you work? Were you a janitor or a senior analyst? Teribus is correct to ask for facts. Merely announcing that you worked in the Home Office proves nothing except that you were gainfully employed. I'd like to hear more.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:35 AM

The U.S. government began "enabling" Saddam as early as 1959 when the CIA enlisted his help in undermining the government of Abdul Karim Qasim. The young Saddam was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad which botched the assassination of then Iraqi prime minister General Abdul-Karim Qasim.

The U.S. supported the coup that put Saddam in power in 1968, continued into the 1980s. The infamous Rumsfeld visit symbolized the U.S. policy of providing military and diplomatic assistance to the Iraqi regime in its catastrophic war with Iran. Cole points out that Secretary of State George Shultz even went so far as to shield Saddam from a possible UN condemnation for Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran.

The U.S. ambassador April Glaspie gave a "green light" to Saddam just before Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait. She was "retired" by the State Department and has been conveniently silent ever since.

In 1989, on December 20, 1983 in Baghdad Saddam Hussein met with his friend Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was sent by then president Ronald Reagan to help Saddam fight the Islamic revolution in Iran. This close cooperation led to Washington selling loads of military equipment and also chemical precursors, insecticides, aluminum tubes, missile components and anthrax Iraq. They were used to gas Iranian soldiers and then civilian Kurds in Halabja, northern Iraq, in 1988.

After the Halabja massacre, the Pentagon engaged in a massive disinformation campaign, spinning that the massacre was caused by Iran. US military aid enabled the US to invade Kuwait in 1990. Between 1991 and 1998, UN weapons inspectors conclusively established that the US - as well as British, German and French firms - had sold missile parts and chemical and bacteriological material to Iraq.

more here THE RAT TRAP asiatimesonline

Saddam Hussein was captured at the time when Halliburton was under extreme pressure for effectively swindling American taxpayers.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:36 AM

Well, it seems that the upsurge in violence predicted as a result of Saddam's death is not happening. It's still miserable in Iraq (aside from "Kurdistan"), but no worse than it was.

I said earlier, not all Sunnis, by a long shot, wanted anything to do with Saddam.   Many Sunnis, as distinguished from Baathists--no matter what Teribus says--may well be relieved. After all, it takes away a plausible reason for mistreating them---no more fear by the Shiites of a coup to restore Saddam. And Maliki can point this out to Sadr.

Now the ball is definitely in Maliki's court--will he in fact start to purge the Shiite militias from the police? If not, he's squandered a great opportunity to defuse the insurgency.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:52 AM

I agree, Ron, many Sunnis, as well as Shias, were afraid of Saddam Hussein. Both Sunnis and Shia Iraqis left Iraq in droves, seeking refuge during his regime.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

"We do know however that the US was an important and major backer of Saddam throughout those long years when he was terrorising the Iraqi people."

That according to Ifor

Now between 1973 and 1990 Iraq was considered to be the richest market for arms traders and manufacturers. Here are the figures for those years presented as percentage of total sales:

Russia - 68.9% between 1973 and 1977 they were the sole supplier of arms to Saddam Hussein.
France - 12.7%
China - 11.8%
Others - 4.8%
Egypt - 1.3%
USA - 0.5%

Ifor is asking us to believe that, "the US was an important and major backer of Saddam throughout those long years when he was terrorising the Iraqi people", when during that time they supplied Saddam with less than one percent of the arms required to maintain Saddam in power in order that he could terrorise his people and attack his neighbours. Utterly laughable.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM

Sorry, I forgot to mention my reaction having read Mr Fisk's article.

The man really should apply a timeline to such a tale. It would then become obvious to him where the numerous contradictions exist in his line of reasoning.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:16 AM

Teribus..."utterly laughable" you say.
You are as about convincing as a camel with its head stuck up its arse.
The role of the USA and the UK in supporting and financing Saddam is well documented.

George Bush Snr was a constant backer of Saddam .The US govt supplied everything from unrefined sarin by hundreds of tonnes to bacteria strains to sophisticated communications equipment to up to the minute military intelligence, from helicopter engines to dual use equipment of all kinds.

Furthermore the work of the US-Iraq Business Forum was augmented by Kissinger Associates which did much to ensure that trade between US corporations and Saddam's Iraq went smoothly.

The neo cons squirm now at the connection between the US and Saddam and would dearly love to write it out of history,hence the attack on people like Robert Fisk who has been a close observer of the role of the USA in the Middle East for many years.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

just Google - CDC biological Saddam.

"A letter written in 1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to
    former Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government
    provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists
    in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other
    deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator
    Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist
    to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory. "

Congressional Record

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:46 PM

Freda DOES make a good point: The US has a great track record of backing people and organization in destabilized countries who ultimately turn and bite the hand that's feeding them.

Like a free market enterprize, I wonder what would happen if we said "nuts" to all of them and let them work out all their problems. No arms, no foreign aid, no embassy to target. Hmmm. Yet we keep trying.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

Ifor. old chum.

Let me see if I understand you/

"The US govt supplied everything from unrefined sarin by hundreds of tonnes to bacteria strains "


So, what you are saying is that either Saddam DID use these WMD on his own citizens, certainly a crime worthy of the death penalty, or that he had them at the time of the US invasion, since the UN has no record of it being destroyed.

Pick one...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

Reply to bearded bruce,
Saddam was a vicius mass killer and he deserved to die. It is the role of the USA and the UK which are worthy of further scrutiny as both countries have interfered,intervened,plotted against,blockaded invaded and occupied Iraq over the course of the past few decades.Saddam was their man,their killer and had gone off message.
All this because of the vast reserves of oil under the sand....after all Iraq would have been ignored if it had specialised in growing prize onions.
Oh and bearded bruce I am not your chum...I couldnt be chummy with somebody who parrots the neo con warline despite the barbarism it has unleashed.
Both Bush and Blair and a few others should be in the dock for the war crimes committed at Habitha,Abu Ghraib,Fallujah and elsewhere.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

bb - I'll pick 'Saddam DID use these WMD on his own citizens'.

The question remains:

Would he have been able to kill Iranian soldiers and Kurds if this hadn't occurred?

"the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases."

He was capable of such atrocities because the U.S. enabled him.

Doesn't this make the U.S. an accessory to the crime?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:51 PM

Another interesting series of incidents involve our naval forces in the Persian Gulf, and the 1987 dramatic attack on the guided-missle frigate Stark with air-to-sea missles by an Iraqi fighter: Click here for article
Apparently the Iraqi jet thought it was attacking an Iranian tanker and apologies were accepted from the Iraqi government for the mistake.

The lesson we apparently learned that day was to shoot first and ask questions later. Then we shot down an Iranian civilian passenger jet.

I may not be adding any clarity to the discussion, but I find the details interesting.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:53 PM

"blockaded invaded and occupied Iraq "


Ever hear about Kuwait, and the UN?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

Bill Clinton, Nov. 14, 1994

'Sec. 3. Department of Commerce Controls. (a) The Secretary of
Commerce shall prohibit the export of any goods, technology, or
services subject to the Secretary's export jurisdiction that the
Secretary of Commerce determines, in consultation with the
Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, and other
appropriate officials, would assist a foreign country in
acquiring the capability to develop, produce, stockpile, deliver,
or use weapons of mass destruction or their means of delivery.
The Secretary of State shall pursue early negotiations with
foreign governments to adopt effective measures comparable to
those imposed under this section.'

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 04:32 PM

Reply to Bearded Bruce
The USA and the the so called Coalition of the Willing invaded Iraq without a UN mandate.Operation Shock and Awe was an illegal and murderous act of war.
The US and UK's illegal involvement in Iraq's internal affairs started long before Iraq invaded Kuwait and even before it helped Saddam to power.
Hey,Bearded Bruce you are like some parrot of the Pentagon.....
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:15 PM

"Operation Shock and Awe was an illegal and murderous act of war."


Actually not, but noone want to dig that up , as most here agreed to disagree about it.


"you are like some parrot of the Pentagon"


You can say that I SOUND like some parrot of the Pentagon, but unless you have some evidence, accuse me at your own risk- the black helicopters will be coming to get you....


I guess you think it is valid to accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being in the pay/influence of those whose policies you disagree with: Ever consider that others might just have different opinions about the facts?


And you certainly qualify as chum to me... but I have no need at present for sharkbait.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Lily
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

I doubt very much if Teribus and Beardedbruce will ever be convinced when the proof is there for all to see, it makes no difference, some very strange people on this Site.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: growler
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:06 PM

Teribus and Slag
   I am fully aware of the peramiters that enquiries of this kind have to keep within. but, this ignores the interferance by cabinet and the bullying of so called 'Political Advisers'

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 09:44 PM

re growler: Huh? parameters? inquiries? what are you on about?

ifor, quick, before the next bloody conflict, tell us all who else the US supplied weapons grade disease strains and poison gasses to. That way you will be able to say, "See, I told you so!"

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:08 AM

Hey, folks, the link that Alice gave is worth following. It is damning.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:27 AM

Well, there is a lot of factual information in there and some unfounded but understandable opinion too. Like I said earlier, the US has a knack for picking and backing "winners". On the other hand, what are you going to do? Look at the chaotic situationas a whole. Look at what we had to choose from. The best scenario from our prospective would be to have a democratically chosen leader who could work with all the interested factions. Instead we got a "megalomaniac" who was unpredictable. There was and are a lot of jokers in the deck. You play the hand dealt to you the best you can.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:56 AM

Reply to Slag
The main perspective from the view of the US administration and its Big Business allies has always been about the control of oil and other strategic resources together with the maintenance of US military and economic interests.
The democratic wishes of the people of Iraq or indeed other regions in the world have not come into it at all.
We have seen this in the long nightmare in Iraq but also in countries like Chile,Indonesia Vietnam and Nicaragua where governments have unleashed barbarism to support local killers and protect US business interests.
There has been plenty of opposition from inside America itself to these policies which we have seen in for example the anti war movements against the Vietnam war and the current US occupation of Iraq.
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:00 AM

According to the Wall St Journal today, Maliki's own attitudes give the lie to his supposed concessions to Sunnis. Not good.

If he doesn't change, Iraq will do nothing but sink lower into chaos.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:01 AM

He had to answer for his crimes against humanity.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:36 AM

"Now Growler, if you dispute this point of mine you damn well come with come with some fact to back up your contentions. I don't think that you will because the weight of fact lies behind my arguement.

My word, the pomposity of Teribus is something to behold. The same Teribus who asserted, as casually as you like, that executioners have always been masked. Was he talking about executions in the short-lived history of Iraq, or executions wherever he lives? Or perhaps executions in 16th century England? He is surely aware that British executioners of the 20th century, such as Syd Dernley and Albert Pierrepoint, did not hide behind masks?

Chris B wonderfully captured the sordidness of the whole affair: a schoolteacher executed by a gang of taxi-drivers. Saddam died bravely, with dignity, at the hands of an anfantile rabble. Nothing whatsoever to do with Pontius Pilate Bush, of course, whose agents merely handed over the living Saddam to that rabble, and called back later for the dead one.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM

Thought Teribus always posted against guys wearing balaclavas ?

Maybe just some of them.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:41 AM

Well let's see, GUEST,Lily - 01 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

"I doubt very much if Teribus and Beardedbruce will ever be convinced when the proof is there for all to see,"

OK what about all this proof.

Sale of "dual purpose" materials. Iraqi Ministry of Agriculture approaches the US for chemicals required to make fertiliser, do you sell it to them? Iraqi Ministry of Health approaches a German Company for X-ray machines, do you sell them to them?

Of course you do, those sales taken at face value are entirely innocent, everything appears to be in order. Doesn't alter the fact that Saddam used the first to assist in the manufacture of WMD, and the latter could be modified to provide triggers for nuclear weapons.

Now Iran/Iraq War started when, good people?

US's first approach, by means of a unofficial "civilian" contact was when? - The Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam Hussein - No official diplomatic links existed between Iraq and the USA from 1967 to this date.

The samples, "the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory."

Absolutely correct, they did, the entire consignment was shipped to Iraq as the carry-on cabin luggage of one Iraqi scientist. The purpose of the shipment, was to bolster Iraqi defence against Chemical & Bacteriological/Biological attack by Iran, who also were armed with such weapons. CDC, remember good people, those initials stand for Centers for Disease Control and Prevention - it is part of the US Department of Health and Human Services, apart from being a Government Department it has no link or official tie-up to the Pentagon. The technical support and assistance, received by Iraq to produce these agents and the means to weaponise them coming from Soviet Russia. Let me recap again between 1973 and 1990 Russia supplied Iraq/Saddam with 68.9% of his weaponry while the USA supplied 0.5%. Very convincing figures indeed if it happens to be proof you want to consider.

Another great left-wing, anti-war, anti-Bush myth, relates to "Shock and Awe" that Ifor seems to be so worked up about. While a "Shock and Awe" campaign was unleashed in 1991 against Iraqi cities and infrastructure, no such campaign was used in 2003. I can remember vaguely Bobert quoting some article written by a guy with a weird Doctorate of Divinity stating that the US were going to use nuclear weapons as part of a "Shock and Awe" bombardment of Iraq, in which tens of thousands of Patriot Missiles were going to rain down on Iraq. Never actually happened of course, the statistics just don't back it up. But it does explain one thing. coming to think of it:

- If you have managed to convince yourself that there was indeed a "Shock and Awe" bombardment, when in actual fact there wasn't

- Then you might just believe that the figures given out as a very shakey estimate by John Hopkins might just be real, even when those responsible for drawing up that report state that they providing estimates not factual figures.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:43 AM

If you are going to execute someone do so quickly, as humanely as possible, and with dignity.

Saddam Hussein was the only person who exhibited dignity....

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:55 AM

Peter K (Fionn) - 02 Jan 07 - 11:36 AM

With regard to my pomposity Peter K (Fionn), executioners at all public executions were normally masked. British executioners of the 20th century, such as Syd Dernley and Albert Pierrepoint, did not hide behind masks, due mainly to the fact that those executions were conducted in private, with no members of the general public, or photographers present - TRUE?

Now then Peter K (Fionn), can you tell us all why, executioners at public executions, or at executions where members of the judiciary/public are present, are either not seen, or are masked? There is a specific reason for it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:27 PM

Teribus
...You are fleeing in the face of the facts when you deny the Shock and Awe attack on Iraq which began the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
Shock and Awe was opened with the launching of hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs dropped from the big bombers based in Britain and elsewhere.

The missiles and bombs blew up mosques,markets,apartment blocks and hospitals.It was a ghastly and indiscriminate attack on the civilian population of Baghdad.There were many casualties.

The US military and media commentators boasted about Shock and Awe at the time but even that carnage has been overlaid with the further suffering inflicted on the Iraqi civilian population through the use of death squads, phospherous shells,napalm , depleted uranium munitions,torture ,kidnappings,sexual assaults and the indiscriminate fire of US soldiers and mercenaries alike.630000 civilian dead and no end insight to the occupation and the bloodbath.
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM

Now that the cell-phone video has been made public, what do you think of the government that executed Saddam?

Seems to me that the 'secret' video was designed to increase sectarian violence. With such a high-level execution, you'd think they would make sure no recording devises would be allowed. I can't even take a bottle of shampoo on board an airline but someone can take a recording devise to an execution? What gives?

Do you believe the recorded comments to be factual?

I am having a hard time with the whole televised aspect of this execution. I can never remember a time when an execution was televised for the world. Whats up with this?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:47 PM

"630000 civilian dead "


basis? Or is this like the 3 million Southeast Asians that Canada will be killing over the next 30 years with asbestos poisoning- a WAG?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:47 PM

Teribus, you said:

"Now then Peter K (Fionn), can you tell us all why, executioners at public executions, or at executions where members of the judiciary/public are present, are either not seen, or are masked? There is a specific reason for it."

As you presumably know the reason for it, why don't you tell us? I, for one, would be interested to know.

A lot of the facts you present to us are somewhat masked by your abrasive & offensive manner, IMO.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:21 PM

href="http://marchforjustice.com/shock&awe.php">Lovely Photo Gallery :

"The Pentagon now predicts that the Iraq blitzkrieg could approximate the devastation of a nuclear explosion. "The sheer size of this has never been ... contemplated before," one Pentagon strategist boasted to CBS News. "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad."

"The Pentagon dubbed its cold-blooded attack plan "Shock and Awe," a bizarre conjunction of trauma and admiration."

http://www.alternet.org/story/15027/
So Their Plans Went Awry?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:48 PM

The hooded or masked executioner is meant to denote that the faceles aspect of the state is carrying out the sentence; not an individual. Beheading was thought at one time to be the quickest, most humane way to dispatch the condemned and it was also considered to be the most diginfied death. The hanged man was acursed and was often left hanging as a warning to those who would defy the crown, None of the symbolisms are hard and fast and there are many variations. The protection of the executioner's identity was originally to protect him and his family from revenge.

The dignity that was AFFORDED to Saddam was a far cry from the vicious murders he and his sona and henchmen perpatrated against their own countrymen and even family members and it certainly was in sharp contrast to the terrorist who were definitely hiding behind masks as they sawed the heads off their kidnap victims for their audience's viewing pleasure on Al Jezera (sp?) and the internet.

I am SHOCKED and AWED at Ifor's disputation of facts. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Good luck arguing facts Teribus. Ifor's idea of an intelligent conversation seems to be "You agree with me or else."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:13 PM

reply to slag
........what a sad comment.I have not been a bullyboy on this thread but have pointed out the plain truth that Bush and Blair are a pair of war criminals and that successive American and British governments are up to their necks in the blood and gore of the Iraqi people.
The 630000 deaths I mentioned in a previous posting comes from that well known Baathist organisation The John Hokins University in America which has conducted a survey of Iraqi households to arrive at that round figure.
Ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:02 PM

The "cell-phone video" gives this story real legs. I'm not sure what some of the witnesses were shouting at Saddam before he was hanged but I somehow doubt that it was complimentary.

I believe there was some plan that this would be a "dignified" execution that would not provide more ammunition for Sunni/Shihii violence. Well, so much for that plan!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:09 PM

Transcript of the taunts.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:21 PM

I'm not sure that US pressure to put a Western face of perfunctoriness on the affair was in play here. Our culture would like to see a dispassionate performance of a state responsibility. This is Iraq. I believe they are trying to be a Western-styled democray. They need to find their own way: one which will fit in with the civilized world. Mistakes will be made. I don't like to see anyone's well intentioned enterprize fail so I'm all for Iraq getting it right and getting a new start that will serve their people and the region. Constructive criticism and encouragement are needed and not a desire to see them fail.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:13 PM

"This is Iraq. I believe they are trying to be a Western-styled democray. They need to find their own way: one which will fit in with the civilized world."

Iraq is a tribal society contorted by religious fundamentalism.
The "civilised world"in the shape of America and Britain have turned it into a butchers shop. we have recruited more converts to islamic fundamentalism in three years, than Osama could have managed in a lifetime.
Interesting to see Teribus and his ilk praise our strategy of training and arming the Shia, who by and large owe their allegiance to their fundamentalist leaders, not Western style "democracy".

Islamic fundamentalism was always the biggest danger to those who run Western "democracy"....They underestimated the madness of religious conviction.
These people really believe in a god and are prepared to put their lives on the line for that belief.
No one of sound mind in the West really believes and we are weakened by the lack of will...Ake

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:31 PM

The footage of the hanging is on YouTube if you have the stomach for that.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:04 AM

Part of the rise of fundamentalism in the Middle East is the failure of secular organisations and political parties to challenge successfully the tyrants who have ruled many of these countries.

In Iraq , for example, the communist party ,which cut across religious and sectarian lines in terms of both its memebership and leadership, was all but destroyed by Saddam using lists and addresses provided by the CIA.The communists and their families were arrested,tortured and executed.

Its tragic failure opened the door to religious parties and organisations to organise against Saddam and his Baathist party.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

Teribus will probably be trawling for factoids to justify the war when the US Army has swept on into Iran and the Middle East is aflame from Isfahan to Damascus.
His almost obsessive behaviour reminds me of those oh-so-diligent civil servants and researchers who furnished the Nazis with their facts and figures to justify the race laws; beavering away at the coalface of obfuscation to furnish enough half-truths to shore up an edifice of pure evil.
Like those good men Falk Ruttke, Arthur Gütt and Ernst Rüdin, he freely gives of his erudition for the benefit of all. One day, perhaps, this useful idiot will awaken and - I hope - hang his head at the enormity of his advocacy.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

GUEST,ifor - 02 Jan 07 - 12:27 PM

I do not believe that I am fleeing in the face of FACTS, quite the contrary. On the other hand I do believe that that you seem incapable of recognising a fact when it stares you in the face - Example - Over a period of seventeen years Soviet Russia provides 68.9% of ALL weapons to Saddam Hussein, while during the same period the USA provides Saddam Hussein with 0.5% of ALL weapons - According to you USA was the major supporter and provider of weapons to Saddam Hussein - Now I would say that the facts state otherwise.

Now for the points made in your post:

"Shock and Awe was opened with the launching of hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs dropped from the big bombers based in Britain and elsewhere."

Certainly the campaign was opened with such an aerial assault, but that was not "Shock and Awe". Now go away and find out how long that level of attack was maintained for. Once you have done that, compare that to the bombing campaign that was employed as the opening to Desert Storm (Two months). Also compare targets, when you have done that you will see clearly the difference between the two, the first, Desert Storm, WAS "Shock and Awe", the latter campaign was not, it couldn't be for very well founded reasons.

"The missiles and bombs blew up mosques,markets,apartment blocks and hospitals.It was a ghastly and indiscriminate attack on the civilian population of Baghdad.There were many casualties."

Incorrect, estimated Iraqi fatalities resulting from the Desert Storm bombing campaign were put at about 150,000 (Iraqi Government Figures) of that number 35,000 Iraqi civilians had died. During the March 2003 invasion (The period of your supposed "Shock and Awe" campaign) Abu Dhabi TV reported on April 8 that Iraqi sources claimed 1,252 civilians had been killed and 5,103 had been wounded in this conflict. The antiwar IraqBodyCount project, via monitoring and compiling media reports of Iraqi civilian casualties, estimates between 1,631 and 1,887 civilians had died as of April 17.

By the way, do not confuse the terms "Casualties" and "Fatalities". Casualties = Dead + Wounded; Fatalities = Dead only.

Now Ifor, logically tell me why it would be that "Shock and Awe" could be used in 1991, but could not be used in 2003. There is a perfectly logical reason, now you demonstrate to all on this forum, your ability to examine facts and come up with a reasoned logical explanation, not one born of emotion, rhetoric and myth.

Oh, and Ifor just because, "...media commentators boasted about Shock and Awe at the time" does not necessarily mean that it happened, or are you one of the many who implicitly believe EVERYTHING you read in the newspapers.

I also see now that YOU personally now attribute all of the John Hopkins WAG ballpark figure of 630,000 "Deaths" to this latest campaign, by, "death squads, phospherous shells, napalm , depleted uranium munitions, torture, kidnappings,sexual assaults and the indiscriminate fire of US soldiers and mercenaries alike". Well I hate to tell you this Ifor but NOT EVEN the statisticians at John Hopkins would go along with that.

GUEST,ifor - 02 Jan 07 - 04:13 PM - your response to Slag:

"The 630000 deaths I mentioned in a previous posting comes from that well known Baathist organisation The John Hokins University in America which has conducted a survey of Iraqi households to arrive at that round figure."

Oh, Ifor would that they actually had "conducted a survey of Iraqi households", which, I know, sort of gives the impression that this was an extensive survey carried out nationwide throughout Iraq. It wasn't Ifor it was "batch" sampling in selected areas, John Hopkins did not have their people carrying out this survey, and those carrying-out this survey on behalf John Hopkins did not even bother to obtain confirmation of actual deaths. There was no cross-check made to filter out duplication of data from surveyors talking to different members of the same family about deaths within that family.

By the way Ifor, I am still waiting for something from you, and anybody else who waves this highly inaccurate and discredited statistic about like a flag as being the gospel truth, is an acknowledgement, that what the John Hopkins Study ACTUALLY STATES is that XXX Iraqi Civilians MAY HAVE DIED - It DOES NOT state that XXX Iraqi Civilians HAVE DIED. I take it that you have actually read the Lancet Article where the Report was published? Or is this just something that you picked up because it happens to be something you would like to believe because it suits your purpose.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:02 AM

Well said, Akenaton.

Teribus: sometimes, at least, your pontifications are sheer piffle. You know perfectly well that Saddam's was not a public execution. But as with executions in Britain, when they were still undertaken, witnesses were present. What is the difference?

Incidentally, executions in the US are not public either, though they are sometimes attended by ghouls in sufficient numbers to warrant theatre-style seating. Yet even when it comes to these semi-public showings in America, I know of specific cases where executioners were not masked (the killing - one might as well say murder - of Bruno Hauptmann for instance) where the executioner did not hide behind a mask. I had rather assumed from that, and from the depiction of execution scenes in movies, that this is the norm in the US.

But I must be wrong, because Teribus said: "...it has always been the case that the executioner's face is masked."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:55 AM

Noted GUEST of 03 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM, that you have not challenged anything that I have said, you have not offered any sort of counter arguement whatsoever. What exactly is the point that you are trying to make? Or are you only capable of mounting personal attacks?

Should I get upset about this? Naw, don't think so, although I would have liked to have seen the reaction of those on this forum if I had likened anybody to, how did Guest put it;

"oh-so-diligent civil servants and researchers who furnished the Nazis with their facts and figures to justify the race laws; beavering away at the coalface of obfuscation to furnish enough half-truths to shore up an edifice of pure evil.
Like those good men Falk Ruttke, Arthur Gütt and Ernst Rüdin, he freely gives of his erudition for the benefit of all."

No Guest, far from shoring up any edifice of pure evil, I object mightily when time after time, in thread after thread, the same old left-wing, anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-Blair lies and misrepresentations appear as fact in what is presented as reasoned arguement. When confronted by facts that disprove those dearly held myths, the response is commonly and frighteningly similar to your own, nothing challenged and nothing offered by way of counter arguement, all you are left with is personal attack - on your part that's rather pathetic don't you think?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:08 AM

Iraqi fatalities resulting from the Desert Storm bombing campaign were put at about 150,000 (Iraqi Government Figures) of that number 35,000 Iraqi civilians had died. During the March 2003 invasion (The period of your supposed "Shock and Awe" campaign) Abu Dhabi TV reported on April 8 that Iraqi sources claimed 1,252 civilians had been killed and 5,103 had been wounded in this conflict. The antiwar IraqBodyCount project, via monitoring and compiling media reports of Iraqi civilian casualties, estimates between 1,631 and 1,887 civilians had died as of April 17.

So, which of those figures makes you happiest? Shall we take the lowest mentioned civilian figure of 1,252. Is that acceptable? Are you happy with that as the bill for this oh-so-necessary war? This war that has made us all safer? Are they just the poor, unfortunate eggs that make the omelette?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Good Soldier
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:09 AM

Ah yes, we were betrayed. By the Bolsheviks and the Jews. With their lies they poisoned discourse. Bravely, I try to carry the torch, bringing the light of truth to a darkened world. I may be alone; a weak and feeble voice of reason amid the barbarian clamour, but a thousand years hence people will be able to look back and see that I was right.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:33 AM

akenaton post of 02 Jan 07 - 10:13 PM, to which Peter K (Fionn) exclaimed - "Well said, Akenaton."

If you want to talk about "sheer piffle", absolute piffle, or even mere piffle, then I would agree with you Akenaton's post I would firmly lodge in the category of "complete and utter piffle"


"This is Iraq (No shit Sherlock). I believe they are trying to be a Western-styled democracy (Are They?). They need to find their own way: one which will fit in with the civilized world (Well Akenaton let them get on with it - they certainly couldn't under Saddam Hussein)."

Iraq is a tribal society contorted by religious fundamentalism (Your evidence of this is what exactly? Does it apply right across the board in Iraq, or only to the Arab population?. Evidence would seen to suggest only the latter)
The "civilised world" in the shape of America and Britain have turned it into a butchers shop (Eh? No Akenaton, it was a Butcher's Shop long before). we have recruited more converts to islamic fundamentalism in three years, than Osama could have managed in a lifetime (And what exactly are they doing Akenaton? Are you trying to tell this Forum that all Islamic Fundamentalists are terrorists? Are you stating that we should be afraid of them? Evidence again would seem to suggest that Muslin Arabs of whatever sect have more to fear from Islamic Fundamentalists than anybody else?).
Interesting to see Teribus and his ilk praise our strategy of training and arming the Shia, who by and large owe their allegiance to their fundamentalist leaders, not Western style "democracy" (Refer to your own point of Iraqi's need to find their own way Akenaton - Iraqi Police Force and Army are open to entry by all - True?).

Islamic fundamentalism was always the biggest danger to those who run Western "democracy"....They underestimated the madness of religious conviction (This really is the funniest thing that I've read for ages - Sorry Akenaton history is against you on this one).
These people really believe in a god and are prepared to put their lives on the line for that belief (Yes I know Akenaton, they have been so manipulated and exploited for centuries and their belief and willingness to put their lives on the line resulted in their deaths by the thousand at Tours and at the gates of Vienna. It caused them to be ejected from Spain and by-passed by the western" world in terms of science and history - Now tell me how this resurgence theory of yours works and why we must be so cowed by these fundamentalists?).
No one of sound mind in the West really believes and we are weakened by the lack of will...Ake (You and those who think like you Akenaton may lack will - Thankfully others are not so spineless).

Peter K (Fionn), please confirm whether or not you have actually witnessed an execution anywhere in the United States of America, or anywhere else.

It is normal in the US that victims relatives/those with an interest in the case/Press are invited to witness execution of sentence. They DO NOT see the man who throws the switch (electric chair) that is done by discrete signal. They DO NOT SEE the man who administers the lethal injection. They DO NOT SEE the man who inserts the pellets into the gas chamber.

In the past in accordance with UK regulations, in a firing squad only one man is given a live round, all the rest are blanks, the man firing the live round does not know that he has fired the live round, all he knows is that he is part of the firing squad.

While you may well come up with the odd exception the rule is generally that the convicted man is killed by the legal system of the state and symbolically he is killed by a "faceless" person, an anonymous person. This protects that person from retaliation and reprisals.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM

Nameless, unidentified GUEST, of 03 Jan 07 - 07:08 AM.

I would have thought as someone posting to a discussion forum the answer to your question should be obvious - If discussing civilian deaths in Iraq as part of a topic the most realistic and accurate figure should be used as basis for discussion.

To answer your questions from my own personal point of view:

- Which of those figures makes you happiest? None, I take no pleasure in the death of any human being. I can however see the need that some human beings must die (Saddam falling into this category)

- In war civilian casualties are unfortunately inevitable but all are unacceptable

- "In general the world is a much safer place now than at any time since the end of the second world war" - Findings of a UN Study conducted by Vancouver University and Uppsala University, Sweden.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:47 AM

Only one live round for a firing party?

Bollocks!

In the Great War, firing squads had one blank round loaded into one of the rifles, so everyone could kid themselves that they didn't fire the fatal shot. Unfortunately anyone who has done any shooting will know immediately from the recoil if they've just loosed off a blank, so the practise was rather pointless.
It's documented in Martin Middlebrook's excellent "The First Day on the Somme", recounting the testimony of Private Paddy Kennedy, 3rd Manchester Pals, 30th Division.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:51 AM

Like I said GUEST,The Good Soldier - 03 Jan 07 - 07:09 AM - on your part that's rather pathetic don't you think?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Nameless, unidentified
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

"The risk to western civilian populations from Islamic terrorism is greater now than it was before the invasion of Iraq" - just about every commentator around, including Sir Ian Blair, commissioner of the Metropolitan Police (and, just possibly, rather better informed than you, Teribus, or the sage academics of Upsydaisy).

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:56 AM

GUEST 03 Jan 07 - 07:47 AM

"Only one live round for a firing party?

Bollocks!

In the Great War,"

Don't dispute what you say for one minute, I however was talking about more recent times, my apologies for not making that clearer.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:05 AM

Dear Nameless unidentified,

All very well dear-heart that well may apply to "Islamic Terrorism", now what do they say about "Islamic Fundamentalism" which was the factor raised by Akenaton.

Or do you too, like Akenaton subscribe to the belief that all "Islamic Fundamentalists" are "Islamic Terrorists".

The findings of the UN Study mentioned are a matter of record, if you have any dispute, or can offer any convincing data to challenge their conclusions I would advise you to take it up with the learned bodies identified (University of Vancouver in British Columbia, Canada and Uppsala University of Sweden) as you seem to suggest that you place weight behind learned and "better informed" people. Doesn't alter any of the facts in what I have stated though - Does it?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:06 AM

When and where? Cite reference please.
John Taylor was shot in the state of Utah by a firing squad on January 26, 1996. From dedsignated media witness Paul Murphy of KTVX-TV Salt Lake: "Five riflemen standing 23 feet away fired the standard Winchester Model 94 rifles. Four of these were loaded with a single Winchester Silver Tip 150-grain .30-.30 bullet, while the fifth contained a blank round."
That still seems to be the norm.
Admit it, Teribus, you just got it wrong.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The sugarplum fairy
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:14 AM

Doesn't alter any of the facts in what I have stated though - Does it?
Teribus, poppet, most of the time you're not stating facts, you're stating opinions. Other people's opinions. Can you point me in the direction of the 'fact' ascertained by the academics from Vancouver and Upsalla which produced the ineluctable conclusion that the world was safe?
Just because someone else says it, doesn't make it true. If all you can do is yap the words of others, we're not going to get very far, and you're demeaning yourself to the level of a parrot that can't comprehend the obscenities it squawks.
I can find citations which will claim that the Nazis did not murder Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and dissidents, but that doesn't make them right. I can find citations which claim that evolution is impossible, but that doesn't make them right. I can find citations which state that Saddam had WMDs, but that doesn't make them right.
You can trawl up all sorts of references in an attempt to bamboozle and bluster, my little gillie-flower, but you're not going to be able to turn black into white or base metal into gold.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:31 AM

"In the past in accordance with UK regulations, in a firing squad only one man is given a live round, all the rest are blanks, the man firing the live round does not know that he has fired the live round, all he knows is that he is part of the firing squad."

Eh, Guest, can you tell me anywhere why UK regulations would apply to a firing squad (presumably civilian?) in the State of Utah??

Irrespective you miss the point, it doesn't matter if it is one bullet or one blank. The State is responsible for the execution of sentence, either way, as pointed out each member of the firing party can lay claim to the fact that he did not fire the fatal shot or shots - True?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Micky the Matelot
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:45 AM

"In the past in accordance with UK regulations, in a firing squad only one man is given a live round, all the rest are blanks, the man firing the live round does not know that he has fired the live round, all he knows is that he is part of the firing squad."
You've gone so far up your own arse you're now quoting yourself!
And it's still bollocks.
Where did you dredge that twaddle up? What regulation? King's Regs 1913? The Army Act?
I'm afraid, ducky, that like a lot of your 'facts' it's just plain wrong.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:57 AM

Sugarplum,

Take it up with a Professor Andrew Mack of the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, here is how it was reported:

"World is a safer place despite people's fears
By Francis Harris in Washington
Last Updated: 2:18am BST 19/10/2005

Widespread fears about a world in a perpetual state of war are unfounded, a study says today. It emphasises that the number of conflicts between nations, civil wars, battle deaths, coups and genocides has been falling steeply for more than a decade.

While the authors note that bloody wars continue in Iraq, Afghanistan and Congo, they argue that there are substantial grounds for optimism.

The first Human Security Report, written by academics led by Andrew Mack, of the University of British Columbia, cites popular notions that war is becoming more common and deadlier, that genocide is rising and that terrorism poses the greatest threat to humanity.

"Not one of these claims is based on reliable data," it says. "All are suspect; some are demonstrably false. Yet they are widely believed because they reinforce popular assumptions."

The authors say there are 40 per cent fewer armed conflicts than in the early 1990s. Between 1991 and last year 28 wars for self-determination began but 43 were ended or contained.

In 1992, when the Yugoslav wars of secession began, there were 51 state-based conflicts around the world. The figure dropped to 32 in 2002 and 29 in 2003. The arms trade declined by a third from 1990 to 2003 and the number of refugees fell by 45 per cent between 1992 and 2003.

In 1950 each conflict killed 38,000 people on average. By 2002 that had dropped to 600.

However, the report, which was funded by five nations including Britain, says that the potential for a major upsurge in violence remains.

"The risk of new wars breaking out or old ones resuming is very real in the absence of a sustained and strengthened commitment to conflict prevention and post-conflict peace-building," the authors say.

Most of the data gathered ended in 2003, the last full year for which statistics were available. That means that most of the deaths caused by the war in Iraq are not included. But by the standards of the bloodiest conflicts since the end of the Second World War, the deaths in Iraq are relatively few. About 27,000 Iraqis and Americans have died.

Major conflicts of the past 60 years, including Algeria, Korea, Vietnam, Congo and Sudan have killed between 400,000 and two million.

Prof Mack, an Australian former United Nations official, attributes much of the success in ending conflict to UN peacekeeping operations.

The reduction in war is also attributable to the end of the Cold War, he says. From 1945 to 1989, many local conflicts were aggravated by the intervention of the two great power blocs."

The remainder of your post was complete and utter drivel, so merits no response at all.

Now you have been given the source of the report, note report sugarplum - not opinion, and the name and location of the man responsible for the work that went into it. If you really are interested, please feel free to pursue the matter.

Somehow I don't think you will, as I believe that you are one of those who believe as you do in order to prop up popular miconceptions based on popular notions and popular assumptions. Well they may be popular - but that does not necessarily make them correct - the factual evidence and statistics studied by Professor Mack's group on behalf of the UN seems to indicate that those popularly held notions and assumptions are incorrect.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Chocolate Soldier
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:20 AM

Most of the data gathered ended in 2003, the last full year for which statistics were available. That means that most of the deaths caused by the war in Iraq are not included. But by the standards of the bloodiest conflicts since the end of the Second World War, the deaths in Iraq are relatively few. About 27,000 Iraqis and Americans have died.

So, you're citing a piece of research that is based on data collected before the uprising in Fallujah, and before the onset of the current civil war in Iraq and its concommitant attraction of every out of town jihadist from here to Margate? And before the resurgance of Taliban violence in Afghanistan.
It's a bit like picking a similar piece or research based on data collected in February 1914. "Ooh look, Gertrude, it says it's all turning out rosy. That's nice...let's go and by a little gite in Ypres."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,the Sugarplum Fairy
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:27 AM

Terribus, my little sweetheart, would I be wrong in assuming that the frightfully clever Professor Mack is talking about 'wars' in his report?
And that the phrase 'world a safer place' is not his phrase - it was written by whichever sub-editor slugged the precis written by by a reporter called Francis Harris in Washington.
As such, Prof Mack is merely saying that, up until 2003, there seemed to be fewer wars.
Acts of terrorism are another kettle of fish entirely, my little flower, as I'm sure you'd know.
Unless, of course, you are a brave little footsoldier in Bush's great legacy, 'the war against terror' - known to all of us in the Dingly Dell School for Strategic Studies as TWAT.
Are you proud to be a fellow TWAT?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Another irritating nitpicker
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:31 AM

state-based conflicts is what that report is all about.
What's that got to do with global terrorism?
C'mon Terrible, you're losing your touch!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Professor Yaffle
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:37 AM

If you don't mind, I feel that I must intervene in this exercise. It seems clear to me that poor Teribus has been holding the wrong end of the stick for some considerable time, and that the general tenor of discussion here has resorted to little more than bullying.
Look, you've backed him into a corner and made him look stupid. Isn't that enough? If you hold off for a bit now, he'll probably summon up the gumption to admit his egregious errors and we can all get down to some decent discussion over the toasted teacakes.
Ah, and Sugarplum; see me in my rooms after tea!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 12:28 PM

It will be interesting to see the outcome

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,UNSUX
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:09 PM

GENEVA (AFP) - The
United Nations top human rights official has called on
Iraq not to execute two aides to former president
Saddam Hussein, saying concerns over the trial process also applied in their cases.

New U.N. Chief Defends Death Penalty for Hussein

By Colum Lynch
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 3, 2007; Page A15

UNITED NATIONS, Jan. 2 -- U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki Moon said Tuesday that Iraq and other countries have the right to impose the death penalty, adding that the world should never forget Saddam Hussein's "heinous crimes."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:15 PM

Nearly 14,000 Iraqis were killed by criminal or political violence in 2006. The violence is not quite a war, but it is very violent, especially when you consider that nearly all of it is taking place in only a third of the country.The fighting is more and more Iraqis versus Iraqis, with some 95 percent of the dead in 2005 being Iraqi. While the media highlights those days when there were a hundred terrorist deaths, that was not the norm. On average, about 36 people a day died. But a day with no terrorist deaths is not considered news, and is rarely reported. Some 11 percent of the Iraqi deaths were security forces. That's 1,543 dead, compared to 832 American. No one is sure, but perhaps a third of the civilian deaths were terrorists, or those involved in supporting the terrorism. In 2006, most of the dead were Sunni Arabs (civilians and terrorists). The UN claims that twice as many Iraqis died, but that number is widely seen as motivated more by politics (the UN opposed the overthrow of Saddam, who bribed many UN officials) than a desire for accurate statistics.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:20 PM

And we DID get the video. Thanks for nothing, gaurd or whoever.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM

Teribus, you say, "There was no cross-check made to filter out duplication of data from surveyors talking to different members of the same family about deaths within that family."

Why would a surveyor inventory members of the same family? I believe John Hopkins university to be a qualified and objective source of information.

You, on the other hand, prefer to quote Vancouver University, "- "In general the world is a much safer place now than at any time since the end of the second world war" - Findings of a UN Study conducted by Vancouver University and Uppsala University, Sweden.

Vancouver University is not even accredited. The degrees held by these so-called 'learned persons' are worthless.

Andrew Mack (from UBC), on the other hand, is a credible source but, "...you're citing a piece of research that is based on data collected before the uprising in Fallujah, and before the onset of the current civil war in Iraq and its concommitant attraction of every out of town jihadist from here to Margate? And before the resurgance of Taliban violence in Afghanistan." = Chocolate soldier

You are grasping at straws.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:57 PM

During Saddam`s trial journalists in the glassed-in gallery heard and saw only what they were permitted to. Judges in the US-built courtroom disposed of two buttons, one to cut the sound when Saddam spoke, and another to draw a curtain across the dock when he misbehaved.

Excerpts were released for broadcast with a 20- to 30- minute delay, ensuring that any revelations by Saddam could be censored, thus ensuring the role played by the US in the arms and chemical weapons dealings with Saddam`s government in the war with Iran would be unheard.
We will give him a fair trial and then we will execute him, the US wild west reenacted in Iraq.

Bush continues to take counsel on where to go next in the morass that Iraq has become, and again we will be hearing from those like Vice President Dick Cheney who said the invasion could be done with a minimum of troops and who are now calling for a surge in US troop numbers ahead of a handover to Iraqi authorities.

Wishful thinking by Bush and co won`t help this unsolvable problem, how to get out is their biggest problem.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM

Teribus....Tut, tut, tut, It seems you are losing the plot, or should I say you are now in the terminal stage.

You completely misread my post of 2nd Jan 10:13 and subsequently your argument is in shreds.

The first paragraph was in parenthesis and separated from the main body of my post.
It was of course a quote from the 9:21 post by Slag, one of your diminishing band of supporters.

My advice ? the same as you are fond of handing out to others
       READ THE BLOODY POST!!!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:18 PM

We keep being told that most of Iraq is stable, that Baghdad is the main problem. Pertinent to that I read an eyeopening article in the current Newsweek by Fareed Zakaria. (The editor of Newsweek International, overseeing all Newsweek's editions abroad.)

In an article titled 'Losing the War, as well as the Battle', he says, quote:

Now look at the "safe" areas. The south of the country, which the administration claims is stable, is run by fanatical religious parties, militias and street gangs, most of whom impose Iranian-style restrictions on people's rights and liberties. For minorities (like Christians) and for women the new Iraq has been one of persecution and punishment. In many Sunni areas of the country, a Taliban-style puritanism is being enforced. Amid the chaos, the groups that can provide security tend to be the most thuggish and extreme in their political views.

Unquote

It is amazing to me that these are the areas that the administration lauds.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM

America is facing a massive defeat in Iraq.It has already lost over 3000 soldiers killed and tens of thousands badly wounded often losing arms and legs.
The situation will only get worse and the so called"surge" of troops planned by the wargang will only provide more targets for the Iraqi fighters to aim their roadside bombs at.
Bush is facing a humiliating defeat...and this from the politician who told his electorate that "major combat operations were over".
This is a horror without end....until US and UK troops are withdrawn.
hugo

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:42 PM

No Teribus, I've never witnessed an execution. Did I imply that I had done so? Did you think that I had done so? If "no" to both of these, why the question, I wonder?

I take your point about American executions. Some of the people involved in the death (such as the guy who signals the go-ahead) are in full view and unmasked, but not the guy who throws the switch, or whatever. So I'd better abandon the US as an example. That still leaves British hangings, which in any case provide a better parallel with Saddam's experience. I can find no mention of a hangman being masked at any UK execution in the 20th century. Pierrepoint alone hanged several hundred people and never wore a mask.

One of the guests challenged your casual assertions about firing squads and you dismissed it in typically snotty style. What you did not do was give any evidence for your implied assertion that the number. or proportion, of those in a firing squad who were issued with blanks changed some time after WW1.

when you demand scrupulous adherence to verifiable facts from others and then skirt around them yourself when you find it convenient to do so, you do begin to look a little bit flaky.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:59 PM

I read the account of an execution in England where the Executioner came out and chatted with the crowd. He then whacked a few melons and such to the cheers of the attendees, greeted the condemned and accepted their tribute, DONNED the hood and then performed the task of state. Then he took off the hood. It was pretty much a symbol, don't you think? I believe this was the account of one of the nobles being dispatched but I can't remember which.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:21 AM

The University of British Columbia in Vancouver is nor accredited?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:30 AM

Teribus...You nit pick whether all Islamic Fundamentalists are "terrorist", yet with a bold brush,paint all Iraqi Sunni's as "Nazi's"

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Sugarplum Fairy
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:33 AM

The University of British Columbia in Vancouver is nor accredited?

Good grief man! Is that really the best riposte you can deliver after a good night's sleep?
All the questions that have been asked; all those eager acolytes hanging on your every word, and all you can come up with is "The University of British Columbia in Vancouver is nor accredited?".
Honestly, I give up. No wonder the country's in the state it's in when that is the sort of dialectic the opposition musters.
As PeterK says, you're beginning to look a bit flaky.
By the way, any chance of a reference on the firing squad issue? And you thoughts on the 'state-based conflicts v terrorism' issue?
When you've had breakfast, of course.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:37 AM

By the way , I have never said that all Islamic Fundamentalists are "terrorists".

What I did say say is that the "biggest danger to those who run Western "democracy", is Islamic Fundamentalism"...a different point completely.
The main danger to the machine is a cultural one.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:30 AM

From Akenaton:

"What I did say say is that the "biggest danger to those who run Western "democracy", is Islamic Fundamentalism"

How and why? Should be simple enough for you to answer that surely. It is after all your dearly held belief. It is your opinion, it is not a fact.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The chocolate Soldier
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:35 AM

Hey, Teribs, dearest - before you start shouting at some monotheistic pharaoh, how about adressing my concerns? I trust you have breakfasted (and lunched) well, and now feel suitably fortified to continue your sweetly quixotic travails.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:04 AM

You had concerns Choc???

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Chocolate Soldier
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM

Oh, you know, about egregious errors in dogmatic statements about firing squads, and spurious interpretation of press reports of academic research...that sort of thing.
Nothing serious in the great scheme of things, but they do serve to undermine your position, old fruit.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 01:04 PM

teribus - Read the post.

Vancouver University is not accredited. The University of British Columbia is accredited. They are not the same.

With your comprehension, its no wonder you hold the beliefs you do.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Sugarplum Fairy
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

It's an interesting case of polar credulity, really. He'll believe anything if it shores up his particular set of memes, but anything which challenges them - however 'real' - is dismissed as fantastical. You see a similar mindset with Creationists and other fundamentalists of all stripes.
Though how our Terry would react at being lumped in with those nasty fundies is too delicious even to contemplate!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Tchaikovsky
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 01:31 PM

Great merciful heavens, amateur psychology from toy characters in my own ballet! I must cut back on the opium, I fear.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

That's good then dianavan Professor Andrew Mack of The University of British Columbia should then be acceptable as a source then.

I believe that it was the BBC report, or in the British Press that Vancouver University was cited in connection with the study.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Chocolate Soldier
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 02:28 PM

Hmm - just goes to show you can't trust the bloody press, eh?
Just as well our Tel would never post something like:
"World is a safer place despite people's fears
By Francis Harris in Washington
Last Updated: 2:18am BST 19/10/2005
Isn't it?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 02:52 PM

teribus - As already posted, Andrew Mack (from UBC), is a credible source but, "...you're citing a piece of research that is based on data collected before the uprising in Fallujah, and before the onset of the current civil war in Iraq and its concommitant attraction of every out of town jihadist from here to Margate? And before the resurgance of Taliban violence in Afghanistan."

Chocolate soldier has already posted this.

Your argument has too many holes in it. Try finding current and credible sources to back your opinion.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 02:54 PM

>I read the account of an execution in England where the Executioner >came out and chatted with the crowd. He then whacked a few melons and >such to the cheers of the attendees, greeted the condemned and accepted >their tribute, DONNED the hood and then performed the task of state. >Then he took off the hood. It was pretty much a symbol, don't you >think? I believe this was the account of one of the nobles being >dispatched but I can't remember which.

I believe that was the Duke of Gallagher.

Hearing the latest, it seems that the Iraqis handled the event
like a bunch of savages. They've now turned around and arrested
the guys who used their cell-phones to record and publicize
the fact that they handled it like a bunch of savages. I suppose
that they will now act like a bunch of savages in their treatment
of said 'reporters.'

All in the name of 'keeping up the appearance' of being
civilized men.

Rather brings to mind a Mark Twain quote regarding porcine
whistler training.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Chocolate Soldier
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 02:56 PM

Sorry: CC

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 03:19 PM

"The greatest danger to those who run Western "democracy" is Islamic Fundamentalism"

Teribus...I have already explained directly to you why I believe this to be the case....Memory loss is another symptom I'm afraid.

Despite the spinning of the UK/US/Iraqi governments and taking all available information into account, my best guess at violent deaths since the start of the war would be in hundreds of thousands.

Given the misinformation which abounds ...on both sides, all we can do is guess......And all the Iraqi people can do is grieve....Ake

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:15 PM

Why not remove the 'Islamic' and the 'Western' and just state:

"The greatest danger to democracy is religious fundamentalism."

It's the whole 'under God' crew, the ones who insist that
'religious freedom' applies to THEIR freedom to observe their
religion and to impose 'god's will' on others, that are
destructive to democracy.

Whether it's Christians in the US trying to legislate what
women can do with their own bodies or Muslims in Turkey
preventing Christian churches from owning property it all
comes down to the same thing.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST,The Nutcracker
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:18 PM

Thank you GregB - the most sensible thing on this thread for a while. Religions of all stripes are rife for exploitation by zealots and bigots. For me the Christian neo-con fundies are just the Islamic fundies in different shirts. All of them stink.
A humanist plague on all their houses.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST,Tchaikovsky
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:23 PM

Look, stop hijacking the Mudcat and get back to my ballet, you little fur-balls, or I'll set the cat on you.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 06:42 PM

Greg....I state Western "democracy",because in reality it is not democracy at all, but an all powerful economic system which enslaves those it contains in the "money trap".
To survive, this monstrous machine requires to continually expand and create the environment in which the slaves exchange their time happiness and appreciation of the world and all it contains for money.
The operators of the machine immediately take the money back as payments for enormous mortgages, insurance of same, credit card payments, credit card penaties, bank charges and hire purchase payments on all manner of junk which we are told we cannot live without, but in reality don't need at all.

The Islamic fundamentalists may be mad, but they are not so mad that they cannot see how this creeping virus will affect the power structure of the Mullahs and Moslem culture.
And more importantly they have realised that the machine runs not only on the sweat of the slaves and vast quantities of energy which Moslems control, but also on the confidence of the owners of the machine.

A mere handful of religious fanatics who embrace death rather then life would be able to cause such damage to the confidence of the owners and shareholders that the machine would shudder to a halt.
The slaves , seeing the means of procuring the lifestyle they believe they cannot live without taken from them,panic and before long anarchy reigns.

Now this is probably a very good thing for the welfare of planet Earth, but a very bad thing for the owners of Western "democracy".
In my opinion the said owners are approaching the point where they will be prepared to take ANY measures to defend their system...Ake

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:00 PM

Ooooo, GregB!!! "porcine whistle training" with regards to those of Islamic Faith!!!Hmmm?!

re religious fundamentalism. Wasn't it religious fundamentalists who were responsible for establishing the first great democracy since the Grecco-Roman times? Right here in North America? I refer to the Pilgrims and the Mayflower Compact and other men of Christian faith whose orthodoxy would make many of today's so-called fundamentalists blush with shame (watch this one take off like a sky rocket folks!).

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:37 PM

"teribus - As already posted, Andrew Mack (from UBC), is a credible source but, "...you're citing a piece of research that is based on data collected before the uprising in Fallujah, and before the onset of the current civil war in Iraq and its concommitant attraction of every out of town jihadist from here to Margate? And before the resurgance of Taliban violence in Afghanistan."

Now let's see dianavan the article I referred to was dated 19/10/2005. The Study covers all conflicts in great detail from 1945 to 2003 (Exactly when in 2003 is not made clear). Would you agree that that amount of data might take a bit of time to process? A simple yes or no answer would suffice for this question. So just for arguements sake we'll give Professor Mack and his team 12 months to collate and analyse their data. That would allow a further 10 months for review and publication in order that the worlds press can then comment on it - seem reasonable to you?

There was an "uprising in Fallujah" ?? Are you and Choc refering to the occasion when the USMC sealed the place off and knocked seven bells out of the insurgents trapped therein? Where they succeeded in uncovering and rendering safe rather a large number of arms caches, killed rather a large number of insurgents, uncovered a few of the sites where masked men (heroes of the insurgency) cut the heads of various hostages in front of video cameras - Oh sorry, masked men conducting gruesome executions, where the victim is tortured and taunted - at least hanging is a bit quicker - bet Saddam was rather pleased that he wasn't hung in Iran. By the Bye Fallujah has not been prominent in reports concerning the "insurgency" since this "uprising" of yours.

So currently there is a "Civil War" in Iraq is there dianavan, oh and Choc + whatever other names he/she is posting as on this thread. Perhaps you could let us in on who is fighting who? Perhaps you could let us in on what the aims and aspirations of the sides contesting this "Civil War" are? Perhaps you could enlighten us as to who the leaders of the various factions are? It is after all a "Civil War" - Or so you say.

In actual fact what you have is an insurgency, which is rapidly running out of steam, and sectarian violence - Both in themselves, or combined, do not constitute a "Civil War". When was the last time you heard from Al-Queada-In-Iraq? Insurgents are supposed to be attacking the infidel occupiers - Yes? Why then are their attacks on those infidel occupiers becoming less and less effective? If "the current civil war in Iraq and its concommitant attraction of every out of town jihadist from here to Margate" happens to be the case they are being extremely inefficient and ineffective in prosecuting their cause - In short they are achieving nothing, mainly because they have nothing to achieve.

As for the upsurge in violence in Afghanistan, here are the figures for 2006 - 4000 killed 25% of those were civilians killed by either the UN or NATO soldiers and the Taleban (Bulk of civilians having been killed by the latter), which leaves about 3000 combatants killed. Now very few of that number (i.e. the 3000) are UN or NATO troops, so the bulk of the 3000 must be Taleban fighters - True? So this "resurgance of Taliban violence in Afghanistan" has resulted in the deaths of 1000 civilians, a handful of UN and NATO troops and almost 3000 Taleban fighters - I would venture to suggest that that would indicate no resurgence of Taleban anything, on the other hand it would indicate that the Taleban are taking one hell of a hammering.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 09:31 PM

Gracious. T. I do hope you are being paid well. You may find yourself out of a job before you know it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST,UNSUX
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:48 PM

Vancouver University Worldwide
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    For the public university in Vancouver,British Columbia, see University of British Columbia

Vancouver University Worldwide describes itself as a "secular consortium university of globally-located public and private member colleges," headquartered in Vancouver, British Columbia. It offers to evaluate "external learning." It has been involved in controversy with the national press due to its external/distance education. Vancouver University is not accredited by any recognised accreditation body. As such, its degrees may not be acceptable to employers or other institutions, and use of degree titles may be restricted or illegal in some jurisdictions.

Two of the United States, Oregon and Michigan list the institution among those whose "degrees" are invalid or illegal because they lack accreditation. While its website claims its degrees are "authorized" under "various British Commonwealth Common Law precedents" under many circumstances this may not be treated as the equivalent of an accreditor recognized in North America.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:30 PM

Slag---

I use the 'porcine' term advisedly and with intent. They are
precisely what they claim to revile.

Regarding the Pilgrims--- you're a 150 years too early
for any serious thoughts of 'democracy' in the New World. They,
and most of the other 'religious refugees' of the 17th century,
were basically after finding a place where they could run things
their way. Which turned out to be the way 'God' wanted it. It wasn't
until the end of the 18th century that political thinkers began
to realize that separation of church and state is fundamental
to true 'Democracy.'

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:46 PM

Slag--Greg is right. Do you purposefully misinterpret history for incendiary effect?   If you wanted to avoid such an effect, all you'd have to do is a bit of research before you post. I get the distinct impression your main goal is heat, not light.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:22 AM

It seems that the T-zer can only see one side of the equation. He's a win or lose kinda guy and it will take full retreat and/or widespread slaughter to convince him that the US and Britain combined can never win this war.

btw - Alot more happened in Fallujah than the capture of a few criminals.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/fallujah.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/read-wsj.html&h=392&w=600&sz=79&hl=en&start=31&tbnid=bnPt6m7m_uQQmM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfallujah%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

The hanging of Saddam was just another act of revenge. He was, after all, the man who almost had George Sr. assassinated. I wonder if Sr. is proud of his son for killing so many innocents, displacing the rest and destroying the infrastructure?

I'd say the hanging of Saddam was an honour killing.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:33 AM

Running out of steam, Tel?
The body count is growing month on month. December - 2000-odd killed (that we know of). Would you be willing to take a stroll outside the green zone?
And Fallujah was rather more than an exercise for the USMC - it brought foreign fighters to queues on the borders to come and join the party, and was seemingly the catalyst for bringing in a wider, Al Queda-inspired tranche of Sunnis to join the civil war. Sorry, uprising.
Is that like the vietnam uprising, by the way?
So come on poppet, take the tinfoil off your head, wake up and face a little reality here. The US and British official briefings are about as reliable as those during Vietnam and the Falklands; they have a gloss to put on matters, and will say that black is white if it suits them.
Your much-derided media probably has a better grasp on reality. Not the chairborne warriors in London, New York and Washington, but those on the ground who venture outside the green zone once in a while. There aren't many of them, because it's a dangerous calling, but they are the ones giving the true picture. Talk to squaddies who have done tours there - they'll tell you the situation's going to ratshit. Not much patrolling in berets gets done these days, my love; it's lids on and lock down.
But I suppose you'll carry on carrying the flag valiantly for the armchair warriors. Bless!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:58 AM

Lighten Up Ron, et al. It is part of our American Heritage. These are just the seeds of democracy. Man, you guys Out with the gats at a momnents notice. Seed for many things were brought to these shore but if your honest you have to see parallels in American fundamental Christianity and the shape our nation and its government took. In England the Church was the state and vice versa. In America Church government was the substitute for civil government. The same folks were working through these issues of Church and State. One hand washed the other, so to speak. Remember both Harvard and Yale began as seminaries! Most of the founding fathers were devout Christians who sought a middle way that tried to be inoffensive to those of differing faiths. You guys are real quick to give the Devil his due. Give Christianity its due. It's history.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:01 AM

Teribus, you're starting to get quite slovenly about facts, maybe because you simply take on more than you can manage. Try aiming for quality, and forget abpit quantity for a while.

In the meantime, please cite any situation in those "more recent times" you mentioned, when only one member of a firing squad was issued with a live round. You might like to keep in mind that you seemed to be referring to the UK, but I'd settle for anywhere.

Or you could do the smart thing and say you got it wrong.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST,Captain Ginger
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:24 AM

Excuse me, old chap, not wishing to be rude or anything, but there's a queue here! The firing squad issue was my question (albeit under an alter ego).
You get young Terry here to tell you where Albert Pierrepoint kept his mask, and how the UK's GDP is greater than that of Ireland, and...well, there are dozens of unanswered questions in his turbulent wake, as you probably know.
Good to see you back on form after the legionella nastiness, by the way. Keep well and keep biting.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:06 PM

Slag--

As been said (accurately) also of Teribus, you are also "slovenly about facts". What the Pilgrims established was much closer to a theocracy than a democracy. Otherwise it would not have been necessary for Roger Williams and other dissidents to leave. Also see the reception given Quakers in New England.

And you can can the "lighten up"--which is somehow always suggested when you are caught in yet another stupid incendiary statement. Wonder why that happens.

It so happens that a lot of folkies are enthusiastic, if amateur, historians--and will call you on any blatant misstatement--as for instance your opening remark on Mr. Carter.

You'd best learn to get your facts straight--before you post. It would be a refreshing change.

Though some Mudcatters seem to like to deny any Christian influence on the early history of the American colonies, I am not one.   Obviously there was a lot.

But to describe what the Pilgrims established as a democracy is an absurd oversimplification. As Greg points out, that came much later.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 07:26 PM

OK Ron, If you want me to post the entire history of the Europeans in Ameerica up to and including the Constitutional Convention I will. I don't know if the mods will go along with it though. Do you not understand a GENERAL OBSERVATION? The point of the Pilgrims is that as a community they worked out how to govern themselves. That doesn't smack of democracy??? Well, maybe not in you book.

My statement was incindiary??? I guess maybe it was because you went off like a Roman Candle. Anybody else have any complaints??? Shall we all say that there was NO CHRISTIAN INFLUENCE in the founding of the United States??? Ron appears to need to rewrite history so lets all deny our heritage. Goodnight Ron.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: melodeonboy
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:01 PM

It couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:20 PM

The man showed more grace and courage on the gallows than did his executioners.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:58 AM

I wonder why all tyrants attempt to justify their tyrany by pointing to the behavious of others - they all belong in the same zoo as far as I can see.
As Ghandi said about western civilisation - it would be a good idea.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

:0)

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

Slag--

Still obviously having that serious problem you and other Bushites seem to have with reading.   And comprehension. Actually that's important too.

If you ever started reading posts other than your own, you'd see that I in fact stated that Christianity had a strong influence on the early North American colonies.

Actually I've had some strong disagreement with those Mudcatters who, for instance, wanted all images of the 10 Commandments taken out of courtrooms. The Judeo-Christian tradition is essential in understanding the founding of the colonies that became the US.

All we ask is that you finally start reading--and thinking--before you post.

Seems reasonable.

I'm sorry if it's beyond your abilities.

But if you don't, be ready to be slapped down for blatant misstatements--which, interestingly, seem to be your stock in trade. As I said earlier, your main goal seems to be heat, not light.

Some of us are more interested in light--and even in accuracy--a foreign concept to you, it appears.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:03 PM

:0)

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